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Thread: Jazzman’s #8745 "Flip Top" Build

  1. #81
    Senior Member edwardb's Avatar
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    I was pleasantly surprised when I unwrapped the aluminum pieces for my Anniversary build and found they had provided the PS F panel without the Mustang donor upper radiator hose hole. I didn't do anything. They just provided it that way. I've read where guys have requested this for their orders, and FF supplied a "reversed" piece without the hole like the DS. This is one of those small details that could be better I guess. For a complete kit where a radiator is included clearly the hole isn't required, so it should come without it. Anyway, for yours, when I used the filler on previous builds I put it on the outside (inside the wheel well) with the finish side of the rivets in the engine compartment. It blends into all the other mechanical details when all is said and done. Sounds like you're planning to mount something there, like a PS reservoir? Shouldn't be a problem.

    Jeff has you covered about the bolts. It's something to watch closely. I buy my share of hardware at a local Ace, which has a great selection and most is sold bulk so I can get exactly what I want. But I check each part very closely before walking out the door. Occasionally I find things mixed in the bin. Usually it's just different sizes or lengths. But in this case the wrong grade. Obviously very important to get the proper grade 5 part in this case. Also good to learn the bolt markings. Note also that SAE and metric typically have different marks. SAE have the radial lines where metric will have a number. Found this link that shows them: https://www.boltdepot.com/fastener-i...ade-chart.aspx

    For the sway bar, I agree with Jeff the suspension hang changes the alignment. When I did mine, I didn't have the coilovers installed and jacked each side up to around ride height. I still had to juggle the spacers a little from what they provided to get the best alignment. At full droop the rod ends are at an angle, but it still does line up (sort of). I've read where some other guys have noted some variation here as well. I suspect it's in the bends of the provided sway bars. Looks like they're not all exactly the same. It wouldn't take much. Probably you see from the box, but those are Miata sway bars FF is getting from a company called Flyin' Miata.

    That's cool you have those old tools from your grandfather. I have a box of tools from my grandfather when he worked at Ford in Dearborn, Michigan many years ago. Most I just leave the in box. But I have several measuring tools that he had -- old time Starrett stuff -- that I use quite regularly. They have his initials engraved in them and are special.
    Last edited by edwardb; 01-05-2016 at 07:35 AM.
    Build 1: Mk3 Roadster #5125. Sold 11/08/2014. Build 2: Mk4 Roadster #7750. Sold 04/10/2017. Build Thread
    Build 3: Mk4 Roadster 20th Anniversary #8674. Sold 09/07/2020. Build Thread and Video. Build 4: Gen 3 Type 65 Coupe #59. Gen 3 Coyote. Legal 03/04/2020. Build Thread and Video
    Build 5: 35 Hot Rod Truck #138. LS3 and 4L65E auto. Rcvd 01/05/2021. Legal 04/20/2023. Build Thread. Sold 11/9/2023.

  2. #82
    2bking's Avatar
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    Jeff, Thanks for the info.
    Last edited by 2bking; 01-05-2016 at 12:28 PM.
    King
    Roadster #8127, ordered 7/12/13, received 9/11/13
    http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...4-Coyote-Build

  3. #83
    Not a waxer Jeff Kleiner's Avatar
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    Thanks King, You're right on the typo (actually I did a cut & paste of the Grade 5 line, added "alloy" and changed the tensile strength but failed to change the 5 to an 8---hey it was early and the coffee hadn't kicked yet...at least that's my story ). Edited the original post.

    Jeff

  4. #84
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    I have a complete kit and like some, my F panel came with the hole. Just finished making the filler patch.

    Actually, after several months of work, I have a significant number of parts that came with the kit, that are not applicable to my build. Given I live just four hour drive to FFR, I plan on taking all these parts back to them and exchange them for ??? Or post them for sale on the forums.

    I also encountered most of the issues Jazzman has experienced. Nothing major and only irritating for a short time. There is so much to love about building this car.

  5. #85
    Jazzman's Avatar
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    Suspension and Steering

    For all of you suffering under feet of snow and blizzard conditions, I want you to know I feel your pain. Yesterday we got 1/4 minus hail that actually stayed on the ground overnight and part of today. It wasn't quite enough to have to shovel it out of the way, but for Scottsdale, this is a lot of frozen white stuff.


    I received the trunk box from Russ Thompson. Fine piece. The instructions are good, and It goes together well. The only minor negative: Wow that is a lot of rivets to install in a very small area. My hand, arm and shoulder were all tired after doing all of them. Even at that, I am glad I chose to purchase it. The instuctions say to install it from the bottom side before you put in the fuel tank, and to notch it around the angled frame rails. I have seen some that have removed the frame rails and added other support rails. I haven't yet decided what to do. I am open to counsel. I certainly am not enough of an engineer to redesign this area myself for maximum structural strength in a rear impact. However, given the size of the frame rails, I am not sure how much rear impact protection this car has even in it's original configuration. Thoughts?


    I have been bouncing around working on the shocks, the rear suspension, the front suspension, and the steering. Each facet has provided its challenges. First the front shocks. I have been working on grinding down the LCA to provide clearance for the shocks. As this is the first time I have done this, I am taking it very slow and checking fit frequently. I have not yet found quite the right tool for the die grinder to notch the middle section at the back. I'm going to Ace tomorrow to see if I can't find something that will help.


    I received the power steering rack from Breeze a few days ago. Seems like a fine piece, though I am no expert. I also bought the offset bushings install kit. It took a little while to figure out the two sets of instructions, but I finally got it. Putting the rack in was simple enough, but getting the bolts and washers installed was quite a challenge. Too many moving pieces in too small a space for meaty fingers. I got the passenger side tight, but I am still evaluating the drivers side. I hooked up the steering shaft. It feels pretty good getting this in until . . . I checked the turns lock to lock. I had ordered a 3 turn unit, but after checking it three times to make sure I was not losing my mind, I am convinced it is a 2.5 turn unit. I will call Breeze Monday, but I am not sure what to do. How squirrely does the 2.5 unit make the car? Years ago I had two '67 Mercury Cougars. Both had very sloppy steering. It drove me nuts. I like a nice tight steering, but I don't want it so tight that it becomes dangerous. Hmmm . . .



    I received an email that my Willwood brakes should be delivered tomorrow. The package is 45lbs, so I don't know if that is front, back, or both. Oh well, it will be exciting either way. More on that later.
    Last edited by Jazzman; 01-09-2016 at 11:59 AM.
    Jazzman

    MKIV #8745 "Flip Top" Roadster, Custom Tilt front, Coyote Engine, Tremec TKO600, Custom Interior. Best of Show winner, Huntington Beach Cruise In 2018.

    1967 Ford Mustang Coupe build thread updated 1/22/2021

    Roadster Frame Dolly Plan

  6. #86
    Administrator David Hodgkins's Avatar
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    Here's how I did my Russ Thompson trunk box:





    I hope that helps, (HTH)


    FFR 5369 Pin Drive, IRS, Trigos, Torsen, Wilwoods, FMS BOSS 302 "B" cam , Mass-flo. CA SB100 (SPCN) Registered
    Delivered 4/23/06. "Finished" 4/2012 (still not done!)


  7. #87
    Senior Member edwardb's Avatar
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    My Russ Thompson trunk box looks exactly like David's picture. I too chose to leave in the factory braces. Having said that, many do cut the upper ones off and install new at the bottom, and I'm willing to bet don't cite any problems with doing so. I'm no structural engineer, so can't evaluate the difference with any kind of data. What I can say is that the first run of Mk4 frames had a dropped trunk. They designed in the step around the Mustang tank. Not long after, it was replaced by the design we see now. Something changed in their fabrication experience, computer modeling, whatever, that made them think it was necessary to change. Frankly, I doubt it was for strength in a crash. Those relatively thin wall pieces aren't going to stop much whether at the top or bottom of the trunk. I suspect it had more to do with alignment of the rear part of the frame, stability, repeatability, etc. My opinion is I'm not going to second guess the reasons. Just leave the pieces there. They do very little to affect the usability of the space for my purposes. But if you choose to remove them, it would probably be fine. How's that for a non-answer covering both sides of the issue?

    For that section of the LCA to clear the Koni shock, it doesn't take much. Just a small radius. After removing some material with a cut-off wheel by making small cuts, I cleaned it up with the nose of a belt sander. Just fit down into that area. Interesting about the Breeze rack. I didn't count the number of turns with mine. I used the Breeze rack on my earlier Mk4 build, and it was silver powder coat instead of the black supplied now. Other than that, seemed exactly the same. Whatever the ratio it is, it drives perfectly. Will be interested to hear what Mark says.
    Last edited by edwardb; 01-09-2016 at 01:48 PM.
    Build 1: Mk3 Roadster #5125. Sold 11/08/2014. Build 2: Mk4 Roadster #7750. Sold 04/10/2017. Build Thread
    Build 3: Mk4 Roadster 20th Anniversary #8674. Sold 09/07/2020. Build Thread and Video. Build 4: Gen 3 Type 65 Coupe #59. Gen 3 Coyote. Legal 03/04/2020. Build Thread and Video
    Build 5: 35 Hot Rod Truck #138. LS3 and 4L65E auto. Rcvd 01/05/2021. Legal 04/20/2023. Build Thread. Sold 11/9/2023.

  8. #88
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    Man, you guys are killing me! After totally convincing myself that I am not going to install the drop trunk, one viewing of this picture, had the credit card out of it's secure keeping. That will be the last upgrade!!

    Rick in Maine

  9. #89
    Jazzman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rickscobra View Post
    That will be the last upgrade!!
    Rick in Maine
    I'll bet it's not!
    Jazzman

    MKIV #8745 "Flip Top" Roadster, Custom Tilt front, Coyote Engine, Tremec TKO600, Custom Interior. Best of Show winner, Huntington Beach Cruise In 2018.

    1967 Ford Mustang Coupe build thread updated 1/22/2021

    Roadster Frame Dolly Plan

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  11. #90
    Carl carlewms's Avatar
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    I just installed the Breeze PS rack last month (the reman from Unistall) and it was 3 turns lock to lock before I installed the limiters.

    When I put the limiters to prevent the tires from rubbing the F-panels it is about 2.5 turns lock to lock. I hope that I can get rid of one of the limiters on each side once everything is aligned and adjusted.

    In both cases the ratio is still the same 20:1 as I recall.

    Maybe that is what is going on here.
    Mk 4 Roadster
    October 25, 2012 - Kit Arrives
    April 8, 2013 - Build Starts
    August 23, 2015 - Rolling Chassis/Engine & Transmission Installed
    March 26, 2016 - Go Cart

  12. #91
    Jazzman's Avatar
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    Small follow up on the Breeze Power steering rack. I discovered a quarter sized puddle directly beneath the steering rack. I have sent an email off to Mark at Breeze. I just sent it about 2 hours ago, so I don't expect anything all for two or three days. No problem. Other challenges at hand.


    After some quality time with a grinder wheel and the die grinder, the LCA's up front are ready to receive the shock bodies. I installed the shocks, then began attaching the front sway bar. Excluding the obvious nuts that have not yet been tightened, I think I have all the parts installed just like the directions and photos. Here is the swaybar attachment when the LCA's are up as much as I can raise them:


    And here it is at full droop:



    Next up, spindles and brakes.

    For all you Roadster experts in the Scottsdale / Phoenix area: I have gotten enough done that I would really appreciate someone more knowledgeable than me looking over my progress to make sure I haven't missed something obvious. If you might be willing to get together, please PM me. Thanks.
    Last edited by Jazzman; 01-09-2016 at 06:57 PM.
    Jazzman

    MKIV #8745 "Flip Top" Roadster, Custom Tilt front, Coyote Engine, Tremec TKO600, Custom Interior. Best of Show winner, Huntington Beach Cruise In 2018.

    1967 Ford Mustang Coupe build thread updated 1/22/2021

    Roadster Frame Dolly Plan

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  14. #92
    2bking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzman View Post
    Small follow up on the Breeze Power steering rack. I discovered a quarter sized puddle directly beneath the steering rack.
    If the pressure/return lines are not connected, the fluid on the floor is probably being pushed out the red plastic thread protectors when the rack is operated by the steering shaft. BTW, hooking up the pressure/return lines backwards will result in having to replace the rack. Ask me how I know.
    King
    Roadster #8127, ordered 7/12/13, received 9/11/13
    http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...4-Coyote-Build

  15. #93
    cobra Handler skullandbones's Avatar
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    Hey Jazzman,

    I've just started looking at your thread. I must say you are doing an excellent job with your documentation. I could have used your thread when I was building. Oh well, it will help some future builders, I'm sure. You seem to be having a good time as well. I will try to catch up as I can as my attention span is limited.

    Continued good luck on you build,

    WEK.
    FFR MkIII 302 (ATK), EFI 75mm TB with custom box plenum chamber, 24# injectors, 4 tube BBK ceramic, cold air sys, alum flywheel, crane roller rockers, T5, Wilwood pedals, custom five link with Watt's link, 4 rotors, coil overs, power steering with Heidt valve, alum FFR rad, driver's crash bar mod, mini dead pedal mod, quick release steering wheel hub #6046

  16. #94
    Jazzman's Avatar
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    King - I wondered about that. I sent an email to Mark at Breeze for further clarification. Thanks!

    SkullandBones- Thank you, that it quite a compliment coming from you. I certainly hope someone will benefit from this thread. (I am having a great time, both with the build and with the thread. This is the first time I have ever kept a "diary". It is great to already be able to look back and see how far I have come.)

    I didn't get quite as much done today as I intended because I spent about 5 hours helping my sister put up pegboard in her garage. I offered to help, and it was good to spend a bit of time with her.

    My new best friend is my die grinder. I have used it to clean up cut areas and grind down the LCA of the IFS. I learned very quickly that my 40+ year old small air compressor is not up to the task of running air tools like this. I can grind for about 45 seconds, then I have to wait 4-5 minutes for the compressor to pump up the tank. A new compressor is in my future, but not this week. I have to figure out where to put it.


    I got the hole cut in the upper trunk floor for the dropped battery box. Lesson: not all "metal" cutting jig saw blades are created equal. I purchased the ones with 36 teeth per inch so that I would get a nice clean cut. I quickly found that aluminum is "gummy" and gums up the fine teeth in the blade if it gets too hot. I could cut three inches then wait a minute or two to let the blade and aluminum cool down. Then another three inches. Slow, but I got it done. I will have to go to HD tomorrow and get blades that are a bit more coarse.


    With my success on the battery box hole, I moved on to the hole in the lower trunk floor for the dropped trunk box. Same slow process, but I was getting there . . . until my bleary eyed bride came downstairs and told me she could clearly hear my cutting and it was keeping her awake. And just 11pm! Can you imagine?!! I will have to finish that during more reasonable hours.


    I was comparing my photos and results to photos posted by other builders of the same things. My Front spindles look like this:

    I do not have a washer between the top of the spindle and the top castle nut. I reconfirmed that this is the way the instructions specify on Page 46 of the manual. However, when I compared this area with a similar photo posted by Edwardb, I noticed that he has a washer between the castle nut and the top of the spindle. Is this something that is necessary, or just a minor mod? To me it seems like a washer and a bit of lube makes sense, as this part does get a lot of movement. I just can't find any washers that fit. I don't think I missed the washers. I'm just not sure.
    Last edited by Jazzman; 01-11-2016 at 02:27 AM.
    Jazzman

    MKIV #8745 "Flip Top" Roadster, Custom Tilt front, Coyote Engine, Tremec TKO600, Custom Interior. Best of Show winner, Huntington Beach Cruise In 2018.

    1967 Ford Mustang Coupe build thread updated 1/22/2021

    Roadster Frame Dolly Plan

  17. #95
    Not a waxer Jeff Kleiner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzman View Post

    I do not have a washer between the top of the spindle and the top castle nut. I reconfirmed that this is the way the instructions specify on Page 46 of the manual. However, when I compared this area with a similar photo posted by Edwardb, I noticed that he has a washer between the castle nut and the top of the spindle. Is this something that is necessary, or just a minor mod? To me it seems like a washer and a bit of lube makes sense, as this part does get a lot of movement. I just can't find any washers that fit. I don't think I missed the washers. I'm just not sure.
    The reason that a washer is sometimes used between the castle nut and spindle is to act as a spacer so that the slots in the nut better align (horizontally) with the cotter pin hole on the ball joint stud. Without the washer the nut may be beyond, or nearly beyond the hole. I think there is some variation on the exact hole location depending on the ball joint manufacturer; I've needed to add a hardened washer on some and not on others. I can't see yours clearly in the photo but what you're looking for is to have the 180 degree loop of the pin well seated in the nut's slot. Not quite sure what you are referring to when you mention "...a bit of lube makes sense, as this part does get a lot of movement"??? There is no movement between the spindle, nut and ball joint stud.

    Cheers,
    Jeff

  18. #96
    Senior Member edwardb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzman View Post
    I do not have a washer between the top of the spindle and the top castle nut. I reconfirmed that this is the way the instructions specify on Page 46 of the manual. However, when I compared this area with a similar photo posted by Edwardb, I noticed that he has a washer between the castle nut and the top of the spindle. Is this something that is necessary, or just a minor mod? To me it seems like a washer and a bit of lube makes sense, as this part does get a lot of movement. I just can't find any washers that fit. I don't think I missed the washers. I'm just not sure.
    Similar comments as already provided by Jeff. The hardened lock washer under the nut on the upper ball joint stud on my build (pictured below) came with the Howe Racing ball joints I used. Using the washer put the nut in just the right place to center the slot in the nut right over the hole for the cotter pin. On my previous build, also with FF spindles but with the FF provided ball joints, I didn't use a washer and one wasn't needed.



    I also am confused by your comments about the movement, lube, etc. The ball joint stud is a tapered fit into the spindle, and assuming all is fitting and torqued properly, is tightly held. In fact they can be a bit challenging to get back out they lock in so tight. The only movement in the joint should be between the ball and socket in the ball joint itself. Exactly the same as the lower ball joints and tie rod ends BTW.
    Last edited by edwardb; 01-11-2016 at 07:58 AM.
    Build 1: Mk3 Roadster #5125. Sold 11/08/2014. Build 2: Mk4 Roadster #7750. Sold 04/10/2017. Build Thread
    Build 3: Mk4 Roadster 20th Anniversary #8674. Sold 09/07/2020. Build Thread and Video. Build 4: Gen 3 Type 65 Coupe #59. Gen 3 Coyote. Legal 03/04/2020. Build Thread and Video
    Build 5: 35 Hot Rod Truck #138. LS3 and 4L65E auto. Rcvd 01/05/2021. Legal 04/20/2023. Build Thread. Sold 11/9/2023.

  19. #97
    Jazzman's Avatar
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    Front Brake Rotor FAIL!

    This evening I decide to tackle the front brake rotors. I assembled the necessary parts, counted the screws and washers, and read the directions two times to be sure I didn't miss anything:
    1. Orient the Rotor and hat as shown. Done.
    2. Apply red Loctite. Done.
    3. Using an alternating sequence, torque bolts to 155 INCH POUNDS . . . bolt breaks off inside hat!

    Reread the instructions again twice to be sure you've got it. Yes, 155 INCH POUNDS. Recheck the torque wrench, twice, to be sure it is set to INCH Pounds not Foot Pounds. It was and is set correctly. Reread the directions again just be sure. All is correct. Ok, must be a bad bolt. Try again . . . carefully!!

    Torque bolt to 155 INCH Pounds and . . . a second bolt breaks off inside the hat!!!

    Now I have two bolts broken off inside the hat, correctly prepared with RED Loctite, and I have no screw removal tools. (Note to self: get a set of bolt and screw removing tools!)

    Nothing left to do but call Willwood tomorrow and find out why their instructions are snapping off bolts. This makes me very comfortable knowing that the ability to stop this 2000 lb, 400 horsepower, missile is protected by 12 bolts that I can sheer off with a simple torque wrench!
    Jazzman

    MKIV #8745 "Flip Top" Roadster, Custom Tilt front, Coyote Engine, Tremec TKO600, Custom Interior. Best of Show winner, Huntington Beach Cruise In 2018.

    1967 Ford Mustang Coupe build thread updated 1/22/2021

    Roadster Frame Dolly Plan

  20. #98
    Senior Member edwardb's Avatar
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    Really sorry to hear that. Tell us more about the torque wrench you're using. 155 inch pounds (just less than 13 ft pounds) is not commonly available on most torque wrenches. Normally it takes something special, like a smaller inch pound scale torque wrench to get that setting. It's real easy to pull 155 inch pounds with just a standard breaker bar, and it shouldn't be breaking off those 1/4 inch bolts. Although unfortunately you're not the first I've heard this happen to. You're going to need to use an extraction tool. When you're ready to start backing out the broken bolt, put some good heat on the bolt. Otherwise that red Loctite isn't going to let go.

    Just to add to this, I have several torque wrenches. I have a small inch pound one, but its max is 120 inch pounds. Too light. I have a 3/8 drive clicker, but the lowest setting is > 20 ft/lbs. I have a couple 1/2 drive clickers and an electronic 1/2 drive one, but their minimums are > 25 ft lbs. Fortunately I have digital torque adapter. It's a small electronic cube that basically turns any wrench into a torque wrench. Also can be used to check the calibration of a regular torque wrench. The adapter has an inch pound range that allowed me to set 155 inch pounds. I used it with a 1/4 inch ratchet handle, and it's pretty surprising how easy it is to hit 155 inch pounds. That's why I'm asking about your wrench, and also surprised the bolts are breaking if you're really at 155 inch pounds.
    Last edited by edwardb; 01-13-2016 at 12:10 AM.
    Build 1: Mk3 Roadster #5125. Sold 11/08/2014. Build 2: Mk4 Roadster #7750. Sold 04/10/2017. Build Thread
    Build 3: Mk4 Roadster 20th Anniversary #8674. Sold 09/07/2020. Build Thread and Video. Build 4: Gen 3 Type 65 Coupe #59. Gen 3 Coyote. Legal 03/04/2020. Build Thread and Video
    Build 5: 35 Hot Rod Truck #138. LS3 and 4L65E auto. Rcvd 01/05/2021. Legal 04/20/2023. Build Thread. Sold 11/9/2023.

  21. #99
    2bking's Avatar
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    It could be the 155 in lb is for dry threads. Loctite is considered a lubricant which reduces the torque at which the bolt will break.
    King
    Roadster #8127, ordered 7/12/13, received 9/11/13
    http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...4-Coyote-Build

  22. #100
    Jazzman's Avatar
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    As usual you have the answers. It is a craftsman digital torque wrench. When setting/ reading ft/lbs, the readout shows a decimal point: 155.3. When you shift to in/lbs, it drops the decimal until you get below 100 in/lbs. therefore when I saw "1553" I didn't notice that there was no decimal point. Thus I was applying 10 times the torque that was required. Lesson learned. Now how am I going to get those bolts out?!!!

    Follow up: yep that was the problem. After resetting the torque wrench, it took no time at all to do the other rotor.
    Last edited by Jazzman; 01-13-2016 at 01:49 AM.
    Jazzman

    MKIV #8745 "Flip Top" Roadster, Custom Tilt front, Coyote Engine, Tremec TKO600, Custom Interior. Best of Show winner, Huntington Beach Cruise In 2018.

    1967 Ford Mustang Coupe build thread updated 1/22/2021

    Roadster Frame Dolly Plan

  23. #101
    Jazzman's Avatar
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    Today I received the extraction tools I ordered. Long story short, I applied all the heat my propane torch would offer on the hat, Put in the extractor. . . It breaks off inside the bolt! At that point I decided to just over drill the hole and re tap it for a larger bolt. The first bolt drilled out fine. One to go. Brimming with confidence now. And . . . The drill bit wanders to the softer metal of the hat and I now have a nice large oval hole. I'm not sure there is enough metal there to thread for a bolt. I'll either ignore it and go with 11 bolts in the hat, or buy an entirely new hat. One thing is certain: that red loctite has got to be more than enough to keep the two joined together for street use! It surely doesn't come apart easily!
    Jazzman

    MKIV #8745 "Flip Top" Roadster, Custom Tilt front, Coyote Engine, Tremec TKO600, Custom Interior. Best of Show winner, Huntington Beach Cruise In 2018.

    1967 Ford Mustang Coupe build thread updated 1/22/2021

    Roadster Frame Dolly Plan

  24. #102
    Administrator David Hodgkins's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzman View Post
    Today I received the extraction tools I ordered. Long story short, I applied all the heat my propane torch would offer on the hat, Put in the extractor. . . It breaks off inside the bolt! At that point I decided to just over drill the hole and re tap it for a larger bolt. The first bolt drilled out fine. One to go. Brimming with confidence now. And . . . The drill bit wanders to the softer metal of the hat and I now have a nice large oval hole. I'm not sure there is enough metal there to thread for a bolt. I'll either ignore it and go with 11 bolts in the hat, or buy an entirely new hat. One thing is certain: that red loctite has got to be more than enough to keep the two joined together for street use! It surely doesn't come apart easily!
    No!! Ugh...

    Been there, done that, unfortunately. For me it was breaking a bolt in the oil pickup when I was switching out the pan. Sorry you had to experience the "art" of failure, but you learned what NOT to do, and hopefully cranking down a bolt that size in the future will throw a red flag.

    It's part of the learning process, unfortunately. I like your attitude about it though. Keep your head up!


    FFR 5369 Pin Drive, IRS, Trigos, Torsen, Wilwoods, FMS BOSS 302 "B" cam , Mass-flo. CA SB100 (SPCN) Registered
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  25. #103
    Senior Member edwardb's Avatar
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    Ouch. Wilwood hat 170-12050 (that's what came with my fronts anyway) are about $160 each. Looks like that's the price of a lesson today. I can't remember how many lessons I've had that were more expensive than that. I wouldn't consider not replacing and running with fewer than the designed number of bolts. You could probably get away with it, but brakes are just not a place you want to be cutting any corners IMO. Fortunately looks like they are widely available. What's really surprising though is the SS bolts 1/4-20x.75 long, part number 230-8008, only come in sets of 12 (one wheel) and are $57. I guess they're special because of the drilled heads for safety wire. But good grief! You just need a couple, right? If you're not planning to wire, similar SS cap screws should be fine.
    Build 1: Mk3 Roadster #5125. Sold 11/08/2014. Build 2: Mk4 Roadster #7750. Sold 04/10/2017. Build Thread
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  26. #104
    Jazzman's Avatar
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    Hey, David, this is the fun part,right?!! I am indeed learning. A lot!! And having a ball!! Any thoughts about whether an 8% strength reduction (11 bolts instead of 12) is too much strength reduction? I plan to call Willwood Tuesday to discuss it with them as well.

    No Edwardb, I don't plan to wire at this point. Unless someone says I should, it seems like overkill for my purposes. I will get a couple replacement bolts and call it good.

    In the meantime, I am installing the calipers on the drivers side. (I decided upon that side because that is the one with the correct rotation for the completed rotor assembly. (I did catch that the rotor is directional, as is the caliper.) The directions say to center the caliper on the rotor, install the pads, and then reattach the calipers using RED Loctite. Given my recent experience with red loctite, I plan to be very sure that I am ready to finally install something before I use it. So here's the question: if I install the calipers with red loctite, how do I replace the brake pads? They install from the bottom, but it appears that access is blocked by other parts unless you can remove the caliper. I'm certainly not going to be able to remove the caliper bolts! It doesn't look like there will be enough space to remove the rotor with the pads installed. What am I missing?
    Last edited by Jazzman; 01-17-2016 at 09:14 PM.
    Jazzman

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  27. #105
    Senior Member edwardb's Avatar
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    I agree for street use, safety wiring is overkill. I just wanted to try it, since I've seen it lots of time but never did it myself. Another one of those learning experiences... Red Loctite is potent stuff. As you found out. I've snapped off my share of bolts while using it, and two things come to mind. I don't normally use it for small diameter bolts. I also use it very sparingly. Just a little bit on several bottom threads. Yes, you will have to get those caliper bolts off to change brake pads, if/when that time comes. Probably not by wearing them out, because for street use those pads will last a long time. But maybe you will want to try other pad compounds. Anyway, since those are larger bolts plus hardened not SS like the hat bolts, and as long as you don't overdue it, they should come back out OK. Frankly, probably blue Loctite would be OK. That's what I used on the rest of the suspension where it didn't have locking nuts.
    Build 1: Mk3 Roadster #5125. Sold 11/08/2014. Build 2: Mk4 Roadster #7750. Sold 04/10/2017. Build Thread
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  28. #106
    Not a waxer Jeff Kleiner's Avatar
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    Ouch, Sorry man I have a dial type inch pound torque wrench dating back to my automatic transmission building days. Hard to read it wrong and since it's only about 12" long it's kind of difficult to put too much torque on something without being aware of it. I've found that it's often not easy to feel or hear the wrench detent in the low ranges when using a "clicker".



    I generally use blue on anything that may need to be disassembled for service (such as your calipers) and red for permanent assemblies.

    Good luck,
    Jeff

  29. #107
    Carl carlewms's Avatar
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    Jazzman ... I did exactly the same thing on my front rotors...

    When I finish the build I think I will make a nice but expensive clock face ...
    Mk 4 Roadster
    October 25, 2012 - Kit Arrives
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  30. #108
    Jazzman's Avatar
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    Thanks Carl. I am glad to know I am not the only one to ever make that particular mistake. I like the clock face idea. May have to "creatively acquire" that one.

    Jeff, I will have to look into that mini-torque wrench. Thanks. I will certainly be very paranoid about torqueing in the future. Especially with RED Loctite involved!!

    I talked to my mechanic friend about the red Loctite on the brake calipers. He said that blue Loctite was plenty on those bolts, and I would hate myself when it came time to service the brakes if I used Red Loctite. I decided to go with blue. Just a thought: I have not been using blue on nuts that had nylocks or on the deformed nuts. Should I go back and reinstall with blue Loctite, or is that just "belts and suspenders"?

    I have sort of worked my way into a corner on most projects, so I am going to move back into trying to run the brake and fuel lines. I am trying to figure out what clips to use to hold the hard lines in place. I know what I think I need, but don't know what to call them or where to get them. I need a small clip with one or two places to hold hard lines that can be riveted to the frame. What did you use to hold your hard lines in place? I am thinking of following Edwardb's lead and using the FFR provided lines to practice on, and then buy stainless steel lines to make once I am sure how each line will run. I also need to pick up a tube bending kit. Do you have a set you recommend?
    Last edited by Jazzman; 01-16-2016 at 09:29 PM.
    Jazzman

    MKIV #8745 "Flip Top" Roadster, Custom Tilt front, Coyote Engine, Tremec TKO600, Custom Interior. Best of Show winner, Huntington Beach Cruise In 2018.

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  31. #109
    Not a waxer Jeff Kleiner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzman View Post

    Just a thought: I have not been using blue on nuts that had nylocks or on the deformed nuts. Should I go back and reinstall with blue Loctite, or is that just "belts and suspenders"?
    Don't mix Locktite and nylocks; it degrades the nylon insert. Ultimately Blue Locktite has a higher yield torque than nylocks but with our cars the applications where FFR provides nylock fasteners are generally in shear (coilover mounts for example) where the nylon locking fastener is more than sufficient.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzman View Post
    ... I am going to move back into trying to run the brake and fuel lines. I am trying to figure out what clips to use to hold the hard lines in place. I know what I think I need, but don't know what to call them or where to get them....
    I use these:



    http://terminalsupplyco.com/Store/De...050#Categories

    Or this style:



    http://www.jttproducts.com/store/pro...d-Cable-Clamps

    Called "insulated clamps" or "cable clamps" they are available from any number of online retailers as well as in the big box stores like Lowes, however didn't you get a bag of them in a couple of different sizes with your kit? Every one I have ever built included some (I usually wind up purchasing more or other sizes).

    Cheers,
    Jeff

  32. #110
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    Jazz-

    I agree with Jeff above on both the loctite answer as well as the clamps. I am fairly sure those clamps are provided with the kit as well. However, if you want something fancier to hold the hard lines, do a search for "line clamps" at any of the major retailers (Summit, Jegs, etc.), and you should find plenty of good choices.

    Regards,

    Steve

  33. #111
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    I received the bag of assorted clamps with my 20th Anniversary "Stealth".

    I also broke off on of the SS bolts in the process of torqueing them down. Got lucky and after about ten minutes, was able to extract the remaining bolt with an easy out. Replaced it with a socket headed bolt.

    Related to the lock tite discussion, after installing my red lock tited upper control arm ball joints wrong, I was able to dis-assemble them using a moderate amount of heat. Heat is the only way you will ever get red lock tite to budge.

    Still having fun!!

  34. #112
    Jazzman's Avatar
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    Brake Lines, Fuel filter, and Fuel Lines

    Thanks to all for the suggestions and commiserating on the rotor hat. I have ordered a new one. I also appreciate the many suggestions and comments on the brake and fuel line clips. I found my supply in Box #14. Don't ask me how they got there. They weren't there when I did the inventory!! I am sure I put them there, but have no idea when or why. Oh well.

    In the past couple of days I have finished attaching the tie rod ends to the front spindles and checked every bolt on the IFS. Here is how it came out:

    That is a really hinkey twist in the steering rod ends, but It looks like the pictures and operates as expected. It took a bit of trial and error to get the tie rod ends screwed on to the right length so that the wheels are generally parallel and centered. I am sure there will be some adjusting after I get tires, an engine, etc. . . .

    Now I know it is somewhat childish to put the wheel on, but since the instructions told me to do so to make sure nothing rubs, I do what I am told. Yeah, it is pretty cool to see it on there!! I even took a quick movie of it spinning freely, but haven't figured out how load a movie here.


    I also began running the fuel lines. I first tried to place the fuel filter using the supplied plastic fuel line and white clip ends as specified in the instructions. I'm not sure why, but that plastic fuel line is about 6-7" too short to get the location that is specified in the instructions. Furthermore, I felt like with all the IRS stuff in the area that the fuel filter was supposed to be in, it might be difficult to replace. By putting the fuel filter behind the 1.5x1.5" diagonal frame rail, I think it will be much easier to get at. I have installed it with 5/16" rubber hose from the pump to the filter. However, after talking to EdwardB, He convinced me to go with 3/8" tubing instead. I am going to remove the rubber hoses, and use entirely SS tubing. One more thing to add to the shopping list.




    I have a bunch of clips and fittings, and have gotten to work on the first brake line. I began with the one from the 0.750 master cylinder to the DS brake connection with the flexible line to the DS caliper. I have to admit, I am really proud of my very first solid brake line. Custom bent to fit, and it fits perfectly!


    I found a very helpful tool for creating nice even curves without a tube bending set. I have always appreciated the curves of this particular tool, but found a very useful purpose for the "waist" of the tool: It bends perfect curves to fit these purposes!

    It was also quite refreshing!!

    I took this picture to show the install of the brake line, but it also brings up another question. I have not yet ordered the CNC brake/clutch fluid triple reservoir. I did begin fitting the hoses for the brake fluid reservoir. It looks like the picture in the manual, but I wonder if there should be hose clamps on each of those connections to the red hose. I am concerned that they might leak, or worse be pressed off, when I apply the brakes and the pressure increases in the master cylinders. Thoughts?
    Last edited by Jazzman; 01-17-2016 at 10:36 PM.
    Jazzman

    MKIV #8745 "Flip Top" Roadster, Custom Tilt front, Coyote Engine, Tremec TKO600, Custom Interior. Best of Show winner, Huntington Beach Cruise In 2018.

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  35. #113
    Senior Member edwardb's Avatar
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    More good progress! I tend to agree with you. Those brake reservoir hoses probably should have some kind of clamp. If you try to pull them back apart, you'll find those barbs hold pretty tight. But I used those small EFI style clamps on my last build. Those or some type of spring clamp would be good safety practice IMO. That's just gravity feed through those lines though. There's no pressure from the MC when the brakes are applied. Since you plumbed those how FF shows with the common feed, you could just use the double CNC reservoir. One for brakes, the other for clutch. Or use the kit supplied one for brakes and buy another from FF and use for the clutch.
    Last edited by edwardb; 01-17-2016 at 11:47 PM.
    Build 1: Mk3 Roadster #5125. Sold 11/08/2014. Build 2: Mk4 Roadster #7750. Sold 04/10/2017. Build Thread
    Build 3: Mk4 Roadster 20th Anniversary #8674. Sold 09/07/2020. Build Thread and Video. Build 4: Gen 3 Type 65 Coupe #59. Gen 3 Coyote. Legal 03/04/2020. Build Thread and Video
    Build 5: 35 Hot Rod Truck #138. LS3 and 4L65E auto. Rcvd 01/05/2021. Legal 04/20/2023. Build Thread. Sold 11/9/2023.

  36. #114
    Jazzman's Avatar
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    That's a really good idea, Edwardb! I already have one nice looking reservoir from FFR, I could just get another one to match and call it good. Interesting. I notice that you have used the three CNC reservoir set. Why? one each for front and rear brakes, one for clutch? Do you still have the Chrome FFR reservoir that came with your kit? Would you be interested in selling it?!! PM me if so.

    Now can someone please tell me what that 2.5" hole is for in the front of the DS footbox? I have been looking through the manual and my parts, and I can't find anything large enough to require that size hole. I fear this may be something necessary for donor parts which I don't need. Should I have covered it up before I had the panel powder coated? Now what should I do with it?!!
    Jazzman

    MKIV #8745 "Flip Top" Roadster, Custom Tilt front, Coyote Engine, Tremec TKO600, Custom Interior. Best of Show winner, Huntington Beach Cruise In 2018.

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  37. #115
    2bking's Avatar
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    I'm not sure what the hole is intended for but I covered it and the other one with these part I made on a press.
    DSCF4629d.jpg DSCF4631d.jpg
    King
    Roadster #8127, ordered 7/12/13, received 9/11/13
    http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...4-Coyote-Build

  38. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzman View Post
    That's a really good idea, Edwardb! I already have one nice looking reservoir from FFR, I could just get another one to match and call it good. Interesting. I notice that you have used the three CNC reservoir set. Why? one each for front and rear brakes, one for clutch? Do you still have the Chrome FFR reservoir that came with your kit? Would you be interested in selling it?!! PM me if so.

    Now can someone please tell me what that 2.5" hole is for in the front of the DS footbox? I have been looking through the manual and my parts, and I can't find anything large enough to require that size hole. I fear this may be something necessary for donor parts which I don't need. Should I have covered it up before I had the panel powder coated? Now what should I do with it?!!
    Related to the reservoir choice, I bought two additional FFR reservoirs and mounted them in the same place as Edwardb. I think their cylindrical shape fits nicely with the over all design of the car. FFR sells them for $50 each.

    My kit came with covers for the holes in the DS foot box holes, along with one to cover the clutch cable exit hole, which is not used when converting to the Forte hydraulic clutch.

    Rick

  39. #117
    Senior Member edwardb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzman View Post
    That's a really good idea, Edwardb! I already have one nice looking reservoir from FFR, I could just get another one to match and call it good. Interesting. I notice that you have used the three CNC reservoir set. Why? one each for front and rear brakes, one for clutch? Do you still have the Chrome FFR reservoir that came with your kit? Would you be interested in selling it?!! PM me if so.

    Now can someone please tell me what that 2.5" hole is for in the front of the DS footbox? I have been looking through the manual and my parts, and I can't find anything large enough to require that size hole. I fear this may be something necessary for donor parts which I don't need. Should I have covered it up before I had the panel powder coated? Now what should I do with it?!!
    Yes, the three reservoir CNC system uses one each for front and rear brakes and one for the hydraulic clutch. Using a separate reservoir for the front and rear MC's is a common practice, but routing them into one like FF shows is OK too. Sorry, another forum member already bought the FF one from my kit. As Rick said, they're available directly from FF, and would be cheaper than the CNC part if you want to go that way. That large hole in the front panel is for the front wiring harness (headlights, running lights, horn, fan, etc.). It's obviously way too big for the RF harness. Maybe it needs to be that big for a donor harness? Regardless, FF supplies a cover piece that you can rivet over and then drill a much smaller hole and with a grommet route the RF harness through. Attach before or after PC is up to you. No matter the filler piece for the 3/4 inch tube to go through the front panel has to be added during assembly after PC. I like those pieces King made. Nice!
    Build 1: Mk3 Roadster #5125. Sold 11/08/2014. Build 2: Mk4 Roadster #7750. Sold 04/10/2017. Build Thread
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  40. #118
    2bking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by edwardb View Post
    I like those pieces King made. Nice!
    Maybe there is enough interest for me to punch out a few?
    King
    Roadster #8127, ordered 7/12/13, received 9/11/13
    http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...4-Coyote-Build

  41. #119
    Jazzman's Avatar
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    King does really good work!! Perhaps there is enough interest now, King! Very nice part, simple and effective. Too late for me, as I have already PC'ed and mounted mine, complete with insulation mat, but others may really appreciate the part. I am going to have to look back in the various pieces of bare aluminum to see if, like Rick, my kit came with a cover plate. I also wonder why FFR doesn't just make the panel solid, and let us cut our own holes. I vaguely remember seeing another provider making solid replacement panels for that part with no holes at all. (can't remember who at the moment.) I am even debating buying one and starting over. Haven't decided on that yet. I would hate to drill out all those rivets, but it might make routing the rear brake line and clutch line easier. Hmmm. One more thing to think about.
    Jazzman

    MKIV #8745 "Flip Top" Roadster, Custom Tilt front, Coyote Engine, Tremec TKO600, Custom Interior. Best of Show winner, Huntington Beach Cruise In 2018.

    1967 Ford Mustang Coupe build thread updated 1/22/2021

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  42. #120
    Administrator David Hodgkins's Avatar
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    Kevin,

    Regarding your fuel filter setup, since you will be pressurizing that line - the one between the tank and the filter - you will need to put the clamp on the other side of that ridge. I was able to use the supplied plastic hose. Here's what mine looks like:



    It looks like the mounting place would work with the supplied hose so maybe go back and see if you can make it fit?


    FFR 5369 Pin Drive, IRS, Trigos, Torsen, Wilwoods, FMS BOSS 302 "B" cam , Mass-flo. CA SB100 (SPCN) Registered
    Delivered 4/23/06. "Finished" 4/2012 (still not done!)


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