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Thread: Challenge series info

  1. #1
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    Challenge series info

    I am strongly considering getting a Mk 4 Challenge car kit and spending the next year building it. My goal is to potentially race in the Challenge series, as well as ST(X) classes, and Vintage classes. I also want the car for track day-type fun. I have been pondering for a long time which car to buy or build to accomplish all of these goals, and have pretty much decided on the Challenge car platform. I am completing a Mk 3.1 roadster and have experience with an 818R build, so am familiar with FFR and its products.

    Though I have been through many of the posts on this forum, have reviewed all the rules, and have searched a number of topics, I have some questions the answers to which are more difficult to find. Here they are:

    I believe I recall the original Challenge cars using stock 5.0 motors which put out about 225-275 HP, and am aware that they now can have up to about 320 RWHP (am I correct?) What constitutes the engine power upgrades allowed by the rules in the recent past - are they the throttle body, cam, etc. specifically mentioned in the current rules as now allowable?
    Are the more powerful engines solely the result of an older stock-type engine being upgraded, or are rules- compliant engines available in turkey form?
    Where do folks usually source their engines?
    Is there a brand of wheel which stands out as clearly superior to others?
    Is anyone aware of a summary or grid that someone has put together showing what one needs to compete in the classes other than the Challenge series?

    These are some initial questions and I appreciate any light you guys can shed on this.

    Bill

  2. #2
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    Bill,
    I’m glad you’re interested in the Challenge Series. I’m a little biased but I think it’s a great place to get started. I’ve been involved in the Challenge series since 2005 and recently started driving myself; I am by no means an expert nor did I stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night. There are plenty of great people who are willing to help you keep it going at the track and getting you started. The Challenge Series car is essentially a tube frame race car designed specifically for racing; you don’t have to deal with many of the compromises you would find in a production based car. However, you will still use many production based components (short block, transmission, rearend…).

    The original challenge series cars did use a stock ’87-93 non-Cobra 5.0 HO. The current rules mandate a stock ’87-’93 non-Cobra 5.0 short block with a Trick Flow Top End Kit consisting of aluminum heads, upper and lower intake, and matching cam, throttle body and MAF. You are correct the current engine package puts out about 300-325 Hp and about the same in ft-lbs torque. It’s a pretty reliable combination and gives you plenty of scoot in a ~2500# car. The new package came about several years ago to make the series more attractive and to keep up with some other classes that were also making some changes and more power. I think almost everybody builds their own engines; there was talk some time ago about getting an engine supplier on board but it didn’t make financial sense for anybody. The power level is pretty easily handled by a stock short block. These OEM replacement blocks are not too difficult to come by. Here’s a long block from a big box store : http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/de...2239&ppt=C0332 You would just take the TF Top End Kit and put it on the long block and away you go. It’s a pretty straight forward project.

    I don’t think there’s any big advantage in the different wheels available. Thy need to be greater than 20# and you track with can be only so wide. There are a few compromises here and there but I think weight is the biggest concern.

    As far as where the Challenge Series car is eligible outside of the FFR class I can’t speak to that too much. I believe some have run ST2 with NASA. Not sure how competitive we are there in FFR class trim, probably depends on the track. I am not familiar with the Vintage classes either. In SCCA you can run in SPO depending on you region.

    Hope that helps and don't be afraid to ask more questions.

    Joe
    FFR Spec Racer

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    Many thanks, Joe. Thanks also for the link to the big-box option.

    Here's a follow-up question about motors: I'm sure you are right about the stock, 2-bolt main blocks' ability to handle the hp/tq of the Challenge class. However, I note they have allowed upgrade to the Boss 4-bolt main block. So I wonder if we are able to use the Ford Performance Boss long block with Trick flow manifolds and other top-end pieces not a part of the Boss package (as in part # M-6007-x302E) etc. for the sake of longevity and in case power upgrades to accommodate other classes is ever wished. The rules reference that the Boss short block is OK, but does not mention the Ford 303 cam and heads.

    Thanks for any insight.
    Bill

  4. #4
    Senior Member FFRSpec72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Waters View Post
    Many thanks, Joe. Thanks also for the link to the big-box option.

    Here's a follow-up question about motors: I'm sure you are right about the stock, 2-bolt main blocks' ability to handle the hp/tq of the Challenge class. However, I note they have allowed upgrade to the Boss 4-bolt main block. So I wonder if we are able to use the Ford Performance Boss long block with Trick flow manifolds and other top-end pieces not a part of the Boss package (as in part # M-6007-x302E) etc. for the sake of longevity and in case power upgrades to accommodate other classes is ever wished. The rules reference that the Boss short block is OK, but does not mention the Ford 303 cam and heads.

    Thanks for any insight.
    Bill
    You will not be able to use the Boss long block, you must use the TF Cam, heads, lower/upper intake, unless you want to build up the engine after you get tired of the challenge series you may want to save some $$$ and just use a stock block as I have never had a issue
    Tony Nadalin
    2018 SOVREN Big Bore Champion
    2015 SCCA Oregon Region VP3 Champion
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    Thanks, Tony. I'm sure you're right. I'll likely get the long block that Joe references and then the TF upper kit. Then put it in my chassis and go racing.

  6. #6
    Senior Member FFRSpec72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Waters View Post
    Thanks, Tony. I'm sure you're right. I'll likely get the long block that Joe references and then the TF upper kit. Then put it in my chassis and go racing.
    Have you done the suspension changes (or is this a MkIV) ?
    Tony Nadalin
    2018 SOVREN Big Bore Champion
    2015 SCCA Oregon Region VP3 Champion
    2012 ICSCC ITE Class Champion
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    The Challenge car will be a MkIV; my street roadster is a 3.1 with the SAI kit on it.

  8. #8
    Senior Member FFRSpec72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Waters View Post
    The Challenge car will be a MkIV; my street roadster is a 3.1 with the SAI kit on it.
    OK so you will have the new spindles and the frame has the bracket for the new spindles, which is essentially the SAI mod. Does the MKIV Challenge car kit come with a sway bar or do you have to buy that separately ?
    Tony Nadalin
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    It comes with the kit.

    What do most people use for brake and clutch pedals/assembly, a donor pedal box? Any source for these new that you know of?

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    Several other questions:

    Best offset for wheels, optimizing fit under fenders and max track width?

    Took the route suggested by Joe above, and got a stock reman. long block assembly: Ed Pinegar at TFS is shipping my top end kit today. But which engine computer? A staggering number of different part numbers exist (and are allowed by rules).

    Thanks,

    Bill

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    Senior Member FFRSpec72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Waters View Post
    Several other questions:

    Best offset for wheels, optimizing fit under fenders and max track width?

    Took the route suggested by Joe above, and got a stock reman. long block assembly: Ed Pinegar at TFS is shipping my top end kit today. But which engine computer? A staggering number of different part numbers exist (and are allowed by rules).

    Thanks,

    Bill
    I use a A9L computer (manual).

    I use either 17mm or 24mm offset the 27mm offset hit the upper front ball joints
    Tony Nadalin
    2018 SOVREN Big Bore Champion
    2015 SCCA Oregon Region VP3 Champion
    2012 ICSCC ITE Class Champion
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  12. #12
    Senior Member johngeorge's Avatar
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    Bill!! Welcome to the Challenge series! Its one of the best series around! I truly enjoyed 10 years in it and have recently decided to maximize my FFR Challenge car for ST2 rules. The 2012+ rules really brought the car alive 325hp @ 2450lb in a spec series is a great formula! Consumables are very low, cars are reliable, and produce excellent racing.

    I have amassed a list of part numbers over the years here: http://www.johngeorgeracing.com/word.../part-numbers/ (scroll down to the FFR Challenge Car 2012+ Spec Parts section)

    For engines I've had great success with Late Model Restoration short blocks https://lmr.com/item/LRS-6009E/79-95...ng-Short-Block and if you want a bullet proof combination swap for an Eagle Steel internal balance Crank – ESP-430230015090. The Trickflow top end kit is excellent easy to install. Make sure it has 7/16 studs rocker arms.

    There are 4-5 Challenge series racers in TN that come play at Road Atlanta sometimes, but mostly race in the MidOhio region. MidOhio NASA region has another handful of Challenge Series racers. As for running out of class in ST2, stick on a set of hoosier A7, and some weight to meet ST2 rules and you can go for the win on the twisty tracks! The longer tracks aero penalty of the cobra shape hurts you a little but can still be up front in ST2. NASA SouthEast/MidAtlantic also has the Vintage class but I dont know much about it.

    Feel free to contact me directly if you have further questions. Nice to see another Challenge car getting ready for racing!! love it!

    Forgot to mention for wheels, FR500 knockoffs 17" x 9" are the way to go.
    Last edited by johngeorge; 04-05-2016 at 06:54 AM.
    ***SOLD!!! - NASA ST2 FFR#48 Gen3 Type65 Coupe R, Street legal.***
    ***SOLD!!! - NASA ST2 FFR#48 Challenge Car rolling chassis, Street legal.***
    http://johngeorgeracing.com

  13. #13
    Senior Member FFRSpec72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by johngeorge View Post
    Forgot to mention for wheels, FR500 knockoffs 17" x 9" are the way to go.
    I agree, I have these and they are 24offset and work perfect and like $100 per wheel
    Tony Nadalin
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    Thanks very much for the info, John & Tony.

    John - I have used your Web site as a resource already, and appreciate very much your considerable effort in having put it all together.

    I may well venture into ST 2 once I get my feet wet in the Challenge series. I'm getting started with a stock short block and the Trick Flow kit. I'll rebuild soon and use an internally balanced rotating assembly as you suggest. Did you use stock connecting rods?

    Will probably get my chassis in June or July.

    Appreciate very much the help.

    Bill

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    Senior Member johngeorge's Avatar
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    Yes, I used stock rods, no issues.

    How exciting! cant wait to see pics of the build. If you can stay in the Challenge series, I have found ST2 as a $$ game..
    ***SOLD!!! - NASA ST2 FFR#48 Gen3 Type65 Coupe R, Street legal.***
    ***SOLD!!! - NASA ST2 FFR#48 Challenge Car rolling chassis, Street legal.***
    http://johngeorgeracing.com

  16. #16
    Senior Member FFRSpec72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by johngeorge View Post
    Yes, I used stock rods, no issues.

    How exciting! cant wait to see pics of the build. If you can stay in the Challenge series, I have found ST2 as a $$ game..
    You need to move to a EcoBoost based 818 !
    Tony Nadalin
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    You might also want to inquire about the EGR spacer listed in rule 11.3. I believe I got mine with the "Front End" kit (spindles and sway bar) but it seems that some of those parts may already be installed/included with the current kit. I know it was a Factory Five part.

    +2 on the FR500 knockoffs. I got mine from LMR and am pleased.

    Keep us posted.
    FFR Spec Racer

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    Given your location, you might look into the OVR (Outlaw Vintage Racing) class in NASA SE John was talking about as well. It's a lot more relaxed than ST2, and there is almost always at least 3 or 4 OVR v2 guys running and at least 1 in a challenge car. Some of the guys that had the Challenge V1 cars decided to stay with the stock 220 HP and run that instead of the bump in V3. But even with the nice power bump you can run V2. I have ALWAYS had clean racing with them, plus the pit conversations are a lot of fun.
    2012 NASA-SE FFR Champion
    2011 NASA-SE FFR Champion
    Race page - http://www.mh-motorsports.com/race.shtml
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    Thanks for the input, insight and interest, guys. I'm glad that there are a number of classes open to me, since, as you guys imply, it appears that the Challenge series is not as active here in the Atlanta area as elsewhere. (I live about an 1 1/2 hours from Road Atlanta.) Still, in terms of fun, cost, versatility, etc., the Challenge car platform strikes me as a solid deal. I would also presume there's some cross-over to SCCA and HSR, etc. Also, TT stuff. I'm a member of Atlanta Motorsports Park, so I can sort things out there to some extent and get some seat time. I'm getting to be an old guy, so the vintage series may be a great place to jump in.
    Mhoward - Very interested in the the classes you reference. Thanks for the comments.

    Got my engine today, and much of the stuff from Trick Flow (Ed Pinegar says they now use exclusively 7/16 studs, John, due to Challenge series experience with the 3/8" ones). Will begin assembly this weekend!!

    Bill
    Last edited by Bill Waters; 04-06-2016 at 08:36 PM.

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    Hi Bill,
    I can go into more detail later, but here is a bit of info on the outlaw vintage racing series.

    http://www.outlaw-vintage-racing.com/home.html
    2012 NASA-SE FFR Champion
    2011 NASA-SE FFR Champion
    Race page - http://www.mh-motorsports.com/race.shtml
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    Thanks for sharing that info, mhoward; definitely a straightforward and brief set of rules!!

    Let me ask you guys another question - what did you do for brakes? I presume most guys go with either the donor pedal box and stock dual-chamber MC with a proportioning valve, or a Wilwood pedal box and MCs. What have y'all found to be best?

    Took delivery of a TK500 and Quicktime SFI bell housing and Ram clutch (Forte's) and some more of the Trick Flow stuff today. Went to the local O'Reilly's today to get a PS pump and, when I started reading them the correct part number, the store manager - a young woman - finished reciting the number for the pump - from memory! I knew I had fallen in with the right crowd.

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    Great group to run with. BTW, I am Marty. For the brakes, I have the same setup as John, Dual Wilwood MC's with a F/R portioning valve. It's been a great setup so far. I didn't install my pedal box (previous Owner did), but it appears to be a stock box with customized has pedal for better H/T positioning.
    2012 NASA-SE FFR Champion
    2011 NASA-SE FFR Champion
    Race page - http://www.mh-motorsports.com/race.shtml
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  23. #23
    Senior Member johngeorge's Avatar
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    If you are buying the kit, get the wilwood pedal box. it has dual masters with a balance bar. If I were building a new car I'd use that.
    ***SOLD!!! - NASA ST2 FFR#48 Gen3 Type65 Coupe R, Street legal.***
    ***SOLD!!! - NASA ST2 FFR#48 Challenge Car rolling chassis, Street legal.***
    http://johngeorgeracing.com

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    Thanks, guys. Glad to hear its the Wilwoods. I have the Wilwood option on my 3.1 Roadster. Just didn't know which was the best choice in the Challenge context.

    While we're on that subject, is there a substantive difference between the T=bird and GT caliper/rotor setup for rear brakes - i.e., does one have vented rotors and the other solid, etc.?

    Marty, I'm not surprised to hear the Vintage guys are a good crowd. I'm ready to dive in! I'll be ordering my kit so I get it in July, so not sure exactly when I'll be able to race (the time to build it, and the minor fact that I have yet to get my competition license; I'm already signed up for Skip Barber, however).

    Are either of you running in any class at Road Atlanta this year?

    Thanks once again for your help.

    Bill

  25. #25
    Senior Member FFRSpec72's Avatar
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    I also run SCCA Vintage VP3, SVRA Big Bore and SOVREN so there are other fun events, it's always great to run with the Vintage cars
    Tony Nadalin
    2018 SOVREN Big Bore Champion
    2015 SCCA Oregon Region VP3 Champion
    2012 ICSCC ITE Class Champion
    FFR MkII Challenge Car, Spec Racer, Street Legal, SCCA, ICSCC and NASA Racing
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    That's good to hear, as SCCA seems to be a lot more active in my neck of the woods - maybe that's just my impression. Really looking forward to all the opportunities.

    When I first started going to Road Atlanta (right after it was built in 1970), it was at the height of the Can Am and Trans Am series' popularity. At that time, all club classes ran in the same long weekend as the Pro series. I wish they still did that, since it encouraged more activity and support for the whole thing.

    However, having all these potential classes to run in is one of the main things that made me decide on a Challenge car.

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    Another question for those of you who have vented your valve covers into the required oil catch can and have done so by using AN-type fittings and lines. Having just received the Trick Flow valve covers and heads, it appears that there would be only very little clearance between the rocker arms and the valve cover - just curious how others have approached this. It may be that looks deceive and I will be able to install a fitting without trouble, but I have also seen (in pictures) a number of cars with different valve covers. Since the TFS valve covers are part of the kit, I was wondering if the two observations are related.

    Thanks,

    Bill

  28. #28
    Senior Member FFRSpec72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Waters View Post
    Another question for those of you who have vented your valve covers into the required oil catch can and have done so by using AN-type fittings and lines. Having just received the Trick Flow valve covers and heads, it appears that there would be only very little clearance between the rocker arms and the valve cover - just curious how others have approached this. It may be that looks deceive and I will be able to install a fitting without trouble, but I have also seen (in pictures) a number of cars with different valve covers. Since the TFS valve covers are part of the kit, I was wondering if the two observations are related.

    Thanks,

    Bill
    Several of us have used weld in AN10 bungs in both valve covers (weld from top so nothing is lower than the inside of valve cover), then run AN10 SS line from each valve cover to a catch can, also plug up the PCV (as it would not be used). You may also have to have a spring on the dip stick to hold it down as the blow by in these engines is great as you are running engine at 5-6K for 30-45 min, the valve cover vents are a must but dip stick spring may be required
    WP_20150118_11_21_48_Pro.jpg
    Last edited by FFRSpec72; 04-13-2016 at 10:47 AM.
    Tony Nadalin
    2018 SOVREN Big Bore Champion
    2015 SCCA Oregon Region VP3 Champion
    2012 ICSCC ITE Class Champion
    FFR MkII Challenge Car, Spec Racer, Street Legal, SCCA, ICSCC and NASA Racing
    818R Build in progress

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    Thanks, Tony;

    TIG welding a bung will be no problem, though welding cast material can be problematic, depending on the material. Preheating it will likely preclude any issues, though. Will make sure I address the dipstick.

    Many thanks, and thanks for the pic.

    Bill

  30. #30
    Senior Member FFRSpec72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Waters View Post
    Thanks, Tony;

    TIG welding a bung will be no problem, though welding cast material can be problematic, depending on the material. Preheating it will likely preclude any issues, though. Will make sure I address the dipstick.

    Many thanks, and thanks for the pic.

    Bill
    I used a TIG
    Tony Nadalin
    2018 SOVREN Big Bore Champion
    2015 SCCA Oregon Region VP3 Champion
    2012 ICSCC ITE Class Champion
    FFR MkII Challenge Car, Spec Racer, Street Legal, SCCA, ICSCC and NASA Racing
    818R Build in progress

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