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Thread: Stix's Gen 3 Coupe Build - Striped Steel

  1. #41
    Senior Member q4stix's Avatar
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    Saturday afternoon update:
    I duplicated the cardboard cross section of the transfer case and cut down nearly everything but the input shaft center hole and the output side boundary to see what position it would have to be in to line up with the transmission output shaft and differential input flange as well as not hit the seat and go below the frame. The hole the rod is going through is right at 3.5" below the input shaft centerline which means I'll have to raise the engine, transmission, and differential all up by that amount to get everything to work. I checked the intake manifold height and that means I'll need to modify the hood center hump to raise it about .75" (my estimate). Since I thought about making longer A-arms for the rear anyway so I wouldn't have to run such large spacers, a change in the axle lengths due to raising the differential won't be such a large impact. Well, large impact is relative...


    I'm also taking a look at how the seating position will have to change from normal. It looks like I'll need to move the base of the seat forward, raised by 2", and tilt it back more. I can compensate with thicker padding towards my knees so I'm not trying to stretch out and rest my feet on the pedals. A removable steering wheel will be a 'must have'


    Still more to mock up, but I'm almost back to thinking this is doable
    Gen 3 Type 65 Coupe builder

  2. #42
    Will this be a manual shift 4 wheel drive or a full time all wheel drive system? I assume the modern all wheel drive systems are computer controlled? Hope this fits. I'd love to see this plan come together.

    -Steve
    MK IV #8901 - Complete kit, Coyote, TKO-600, IRS. Ordered 5/23/16, Delivered 7/14/16, First Start 8/13/17, First Go-Kart 10/22/17. Build Thread: http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...V-Coyote-Build

  3. #43
    Senior Member q4stix's Avatar
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    If I can get it all to work, it'll be full time all wheel drive with a 1:1 ratio only in the transfer case (no high/low since that adds weight, complexity, and size). 6 speed manual for the transmission.
    Everything will be mechanical - upgraded viscous in the center and front, Torsen in the rear.
    Gen 3 Type 65 Coupe builder

  4. #44
    Just subscribed, looking forward to your build and the 4wd setup.

  5. #45
    Senior Member q4stix's Avatar
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    Do you think I voided my warranty?
    Gen 3 Type 65 Coupe builder

  6. #46
    Wow. Rock on, Brother, ROCK ON!!!!
    MK4 #9130 , complete kit, arrived 8/10/2017.
    DART SHP 347, EFI, TKO600, IRS
    http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...n-Build-Thread

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by q4stix View Post
    Do you think I voided my warranty?
    Its... beautiful
    ItsBeautiful.PNG
    Gen 3 Coupe #68, Ordered 10/23/17, Picked up 01/06/18

  8. #48
    Senior Member q4stix's Avatar
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    A bit more cutting took place and the transfer case I'm looking at was put in place. Turns out I need to cut a little more of the tunnel. Good think I have a welder for later haha


    I'm also looking at a different transfer case to see if I can gain a bit more room back for the seat.
    Here's a front to back view:
    Gen 3 Type 65 Coupe builder

  9. #49
    Big fan of the "hack and modify" approach. Nice work!!

    Of course we had to do it just to fit in the Gen 2, you're getting 4wd.

    Jonas
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    Check out our build blog - https://vjjfactoryfive.wordpress.com/
    FFR Type-65 Coupe 720
    London Ontario Canada

  10. #50
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    This takes our tradition of modifying everything to a whole other level. Carry on and keep the pictures coming, please!

  11. #51
    I am sure of two things

    There IS NO warranty. and
    if there was you toasted it!

    I got my coupe about a week before yours arrived. Its sure fun to watch your progress.
    Did you make anything with your bridgeport yet?

  12. #52
    Senior Member q4stix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SingleMaltWSKY View Post
    Big fan of the "hack and modify" approach. Nice work!!
    Of course we had to do it just to fit in the Gen 2, you're getting 4wd.
    It'll just be hacking for a while haha
    I still have to figure out how to fit myself in too. At 6'2", it's going to be a challenge unless I want the transfer case on my lap!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob McCrea View Post
    This takes our tradition of modifying everything to a whole other level. Carry on and keep the pictures coming, please!
    Will do! Just don't want to bore people with small, incremental steps since I'm realizing there will be tons of smaller details to figure out.

    Quote Originally Posted by forcefed1 View Post
    I am sure of two things

    There IS NO warranty. and
    if there was you toasted it!

    I got my coupe about a week before yours arrived. Its sure fun to watch your progress.
    Did you make anything with your bridgeport yet?
    I've made a nice 1.5 ton, 9"x40" translating car part shelf LOL
    In all seriousness, I bought a phase converter for it (the mill is 3 phase) that I need to hook up and I still need to tear it down and clean up everything before I put it to use. Parts will probably start once I get the transmission, transfer case, and rear differential all in place and I know what I need to do for support cradles, suspension modifications, brake caliper mounts for the front spindles, etc.
    Gen 3 Type 65 Coupe builder

  13. #53
    I love the AWD idea. What is the theory on power to the front wheels? A transaxle is my assumption.

  14. #54
    Senior Member q4stix's Avatar
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    Yep. Custom tailhousing adapter from a T56/TR6060 to the transfer case, spline adapter if necessary, long driveshaft to the front, and then an offset front differential. At least trying to make that theory work in reality

    See post #39 for the layout:
    http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...l=1#post305730
    Last edited by q4stix; 01-19-2018 at 02:12 PM.
    Gen 3 Type 65 Coupe builder

  15. #55
    Senior Member q4stix's Avatar
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    I wanted to get some measurements for the rear axle angles and things to see what I'd be dealing with from a 'stock' IRS setup and what I may have to do. I put on a wheel and tire from my WRX's summer setup even though I know the wheels I eventually use will be much wider and about 1" larger in diameter.
    For the record, I've run gunmetal Advan RS wheels a long time before Factory Five put them on the Coupe R (over 5 years). Just sayin'


    Anyway... on to real matters at hand.
    It seems the flanges on the frame or the A-arm spacing is off on my car too. I'm not sure if anyone else has it this bad, but for me it's just a small nuisance since I plan to make new A-arms, but I can see it being an issue otherwise. Hopefully this is something Factory Five is working on since I've seen other comments about it recently. I took out the forward bushing to make things fit for the mockup. You can see how far forward the arm is in the clevis:


    For the axles, I wanted to see the stock angle and the angle they'd be if I ran with the diff raised up to meet the necessary transfer case height.
    Here's a picture with roughly a 4" ride height (very slight axle pitch up):


    And here's a picture with the wheel moved down to simulate the same ride height but the differential moved to match the transfer case flange (axle pitch down noticeably with the provided axles):

    In reality, the upper A-arm was hitting the frame so I couldn't simulate the full angle

    So... since I wanted to be wider in the rear anyway, I compared the Factory Five provided axles (bottom) with the stock 2015 Mustang GT axles (top). It's a 5" difference on each side.
    Gen 3 Type 65 Coupe builder

  16. #56
    Senior Member q4stix's Avatar
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    In transfer case to differential mounting news, I picked up a 30 spline pinion flange made for U-joints from a 03-04 Cobra that I'm going to see if it fits on the Super 8.8 pinion flange and in the 2015+ IRS case. In hindsight, I should have looked for a 2015+ F-150 pinion flange but I still may have to do that.


    Here's how I plan to couple the transfer case output flange to the differential. The silver pinion flange will hopefully replace the stock IRS-to-CV-style-driveshaft pinion flange (black) used on the Mustang GT to let me move the transfer case further aft.
    Gen 3 Type 65 Coupe builder

  17. #57
    Man that this looking awesome. So unless I missed my guess you are mounting the rear end directly to the transfer case? That what I would guess since my driveshaft is so short.
    Nolan
    65 coupe Gen 3 "Phoenix" build
    http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...032#post297032

    818 s (with r windscreen ) 350 rwhp. Registered and street legal (SOLD)

  18. #58
    Senior Member q4stix's Avatar
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    My plan is to have no driveshaft to the rear at all. It'll be a solid mount from engine, to transmission, and to the transfer case. The transfer case to differential will be solid through the pinion flanges because the pinions need preload on them and I can't just go spline to spline. I'll probably put in a high durometer rubber coupler on the pinion flanges because the pinion nuts on the transfer case and differential hit before the flange faces meet.
    Everything will have to be in a perfectly straight line to make sure I don't fatigue the shafts or wear out the bearings and bushings.
    Gen 3 Type 65 Coupe builder

  19. #59
    Senior Member q4stix's Avatar
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    Some progress and setbacks.

    I was able to remove the 2015+ IRS differential pinion flange with the help of the Factory Five provided pinion flange to driveshaft adapter and a ratchet strap to keep it from spinning on my. I followed the instructions pulled from dhuff's Mustang GT repair manual. First I tried to measure the free spin torque of the flange which is under 20 in*lbs and then I removed the nut and flange itself with a puller. Not too difficult, but the procedure Ford uses is to punch the nut and stake it into a recess in the pinion gear. Great for holding it place from spinning, not so great to undo.


    Next, I tried installing the 03-04 Cobra flange on the new Super 8.8 differential and found it's a no-go from stock part to stock part. Can you see the reason?




    Ok, neither could I. After measuring with some calipers, I found the spline diameter is just about .030" smaller on the Cobra flange even though both are 30 spline 8.8" pinion flanges. Dang it!

    I put out a request to Nitro Gear and they won't do a Cobra flange with a 2015+ Mustang GT spline even though they have the tooling to do both. I've also got a request in at a local company to see if they can modify the splines. I really would prefer not to have to modify the splines myself.

    Any ideas of places I can contact to make the correct splines even if I have to turn my own flange on a lathe? Even better, a company that might be willing to modify the existing splines?
    Last edited by q4stix; 01-29-2018 at 02:47 PM.
    Gen 3 Type 65 Coupe builder

  20. #60
    Senior Member q4stix's Avatar
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    Well, you know what you say about the internet... you can't believe everything you read!

    I realize these last few posts are a sidebar or tangent from the usual build, but what I'm finding is interesting nonetheless. Who knew that so many places list different spline counts for the same differentials? Or that the 2015+ Mustang GT and 2015+ F150 ring and pinions are interchangeable if you don't have any towing package that bumps the axle up to a 9.75" ring and pinion? Or that even truck guys on forums don't know what size differential they actually have because they only think of the number of bolts matters (now some realize that was an easy identifier in the past)?

    Anyway, I stopped by a local spline and gear manufacturing business that turns out splines and hobs some Boeing parts. They confirmed that the spline pattern should be a standard 24/48 involute profile which got me thinking. What kept bugging me was that with a given diametrical pitch and pressure angle, you can't just increase the diameter without increasing the spline count. Well, that made me recount the splines on the Mustang GT stock pinion and flange. I thought I mis-counted because I read 30 spline everywhere, but there are 31 splines now!
    Long story short, I ordered a 2015+ F150, 31 spline flange that seems to fit both the Super 8.8" and 9.75" differentials. Once that arrives, I can confirm.

    Gen 3 Type 65 Coupe builder

  21. #61
    Senior Member q4stix's Avatar
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    More silly transfer case and differential info below. You've been warned.

    Good news! The 2015+ F150 flange for the 8.8 and 9.75" diff has the same spline count, same spline diameter and outer diameter (to match the oil seal), and same depth that's inserted. I was able to put the new flange on but didn't tighten it down all the way to get the correct preload. I'm going to pull it back off and check to see if the pinion nut sits at the same height because the white dust shield didn't fully seat when the nut torque started getting high. Worse case I add a washer under the nut to get everything to fully seat.

    Even though the new flange pushes back the mating surface by almost 2", the pinion threads and nut stick out to eat up about an inch of that difference. Note to anyone who needs a longer driveshaft due to transmission choices or driveline angle issues and is ok ditching the Factory Five provided flange adapter, this could buy something like 2.5".



    I cut the bottom X bracing in the Coupe's frame to drop the transfer case forward output flange right to the bottom of the frame line to get it as far down as possible without hanging down to get hit. With the new flange on the rear differential, I put the seat back in to get an idea of the new position. While not optimal yet, it is noticeably better than before. You can also see how high all of the driveline will sit relative to my seat. This will get reinforced frame members around it for sure so I don't break my hip if anything ever went wrong.



    The final two pictures show the height difference again but also show that the seat belt bracket for the driver's right side lower tab will need moved or the other flange on the transfer case cut off. My guess is both.





    Anyone want to sponsor the car so I can fund the transmission purchase in the near future and keep forging on, or get some wide wheels in a square setup, or rear Wilwood brake kit, or other necessary build parts? Pretty please?
    Gen 3 Type 65 Coupe builder

  22. #62
    Senior Member q4stix's Avatar
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    Pretty pictures and charts time (because I don't get enough of that at work haha)

    On a topic that can have infinite discussion with no resolution (also an aspect of work at times), I've decided to try to pin down what I want to do with the transmission gear ratios and final drive ratios. I chose a front differential to match the 3.73 of the Mustang GT performance pack to minimize upfront costs and I would like a fairly good spread of ratios, a 1st gear I can crawl in traffic with (Seattle to Everett), and a top gear I can cruise if the highways are open or take a run further away should I actually start traveling again.

    I cropped all the captures the same so anyone should be able to save the charts to your computer and tab back and forth to see the changes more easily.

    Baseline: 2016 Mustang GT, stock wheels and tires, performance pack


    Second: Gen 3 Coupe, T-56/TR-6060, 3.73 rear, with 2.97 1st, .63 6th, square 295/35/18

    Not too bad at all. I'm also trying to keep in mind that I want my engine to rev to 8000+

    Third: Comparison to my WRX with a 07 STI 6-speed, stock tire size for chart

    You can see 4th to 5th is a small change, 60mph already spins the engine at 2200rpm, and at 75mph I sit at 2750rpm.

    Search for all available differential gears that match both the Super 8.8 and the 7.562" front differential I'm starting with to keep the size down...4.56:1's are available!
    Fourth: Gen 3 Coupe, T-56/TR-6060 with 4.56 rear, 2.97 1st, .63 6th, square 295/35/18

    Surprisingly, this is nearly identical to the crank to mph gearing of the STI I'm used to. Crazy, huh?

    Finally, fifth: A fun thought should I change out 5th and 6th to .74 and .50 with the 4.56 differentials, square 295/35/18

    I can crawl in stop and go traffic, shift similarly to my 390+hp WRX, and still cruise at 60mph like a stock Mustang GT at 1800rpm. Seems like that's full of hypothetical win!
    Last edited by q4stix; 02-08-2018 at 12:35 AM.
    Gen 3 Type 65 Coupe builder

  23. #63
    You really have some good chunks of time to think this stuff through. Looks like you got quite a few things figured out! Keep at it and by spring you'll be go carting for sure. Especially if you find that sponsor! My next hurtle is making my own driveshaft. I need to research and find a place to weld it up.

    FYI if you ever get into making custom splines. WIRE EDM is the process you are looking for. You design the DXF and specify the tolerances and materials. You can supply the blank from your lathe and find a shop that will wire cut the spline in there. I have programmed and run several for years.

  24. #64
    Senior Member q4stix's Avatar
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    I'm an engineer, I'm paid to over-analyze any design
    I did the FSAE car suspension design in college, was hired to work on the CH-47 power transmissions (though was assigned to a special project on my first day), and now I'm working wing mechanisms, so I'm in the same fun field at work and home hobby.

    A sponsor would be awesome, I just have to figure out how to find one and then convince them the ideas in my head are worth their money or products. Sooo... until I have a great finished car, I'm guessing I'll be completely self funded haha!

    Have you checked out driveshaftshop.com? I expect to contact them about my transfer case to front differential driveshaft since it'll be longer than the average car and custom.

    ------
    In other news, I half convinced myself I need the 4.56 gears. I know the Coupe is going to be lighter than my WRX, but I created a graph of it's current wheel torque vs speed and compared it to the natural aspirated build I'm doing. I can see why the WRX/STI/Evo all feel so fast from the get-go since they're usually not traction limited and the gearing is so low. With my current turbo and tune, it's got a pretty noticeable peak starting from a 5mph roll, but once it gets going, boy does it move quick. The 3.73 gearing of the Coupe, since I also hope not to be traction limited, would be great after 40 but seem slower on the butt-dyno until then just due to the gearing.

    Here's the chart, based on wheel torques of my WRX vs. the wheel torque of a stock Mustang GT which I should exceed easily with my tuning, the better heads, non-restrictive exhaust, etc.


    While waiting on building funds for the transmission, I'll start working on the updated rear suspension design. I'll post as I get that started to be sorted out.
    Gen 3 Type 65 Coupe builder

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