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Thread: Texas Saga

  1. #1
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    Texas Saga

    So to summarize. The local County Tax office did not know the difference between an assembled vehicle and a custom built replica. You can see the difference by reading the paragraphs in the reference cited below.You don't have to have all the forms cited in the reference, especially the police department sign off. The DMV officials that issue the VIN can just assign the serial number of your car as a VIN. My local County Tax office was confused about the restriction on antique plates versus the use of the replica hot rod or custom built registration. They felt the restrictions would be the same though they clearly are not. I applied for the classic car registration based on their guidance. I have to have the car inspected annually for the DPS safety inspection. I am still not clear what happens when you get to the DMV for the VIN if the LEO has not signed off on the proper form but apparently you can make them let you use the serial number. from the car. The problem is I have wound up with a car that is not 25 years old but is licensed as a 25 year old car. Had I done it the way described below I would h ave a replica of a car built over 25 years ago that I would not have to have inspected annually, yet I would not have any restrictions as I would have had with the Antique tags. Is that accurate?
    Last edited by wrp; 11-13-2016 at 02:00 AM.

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    Senior Member ram_g's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wrp View Post
    ....The process was somewhat laborious...
    I am sure I left out some things...
    Well, congratulations on getting the car street legal, but for the benefit of others, I must point out that rather than leave anything off, you did a few extra / superfluous steps. Sure the process would be laborious if you insist on doing extra labor!

    1) A police inspection is only required if you don't have receipts for all the major stuff. I didn't need one.
    2) Texas does in fact use the FFR serial number as the VIN, if you ask them to. So no need to apply for a state issued VIN.
    3) Going along with the above, there is no need for a separate VIN plate because FFR stamps the serial number (your VIN) right on the frame.
    4) If you opt for Custom Vehicle plates, there is no need for the separate annual registration inspection.

    All this has been extensively documented on both forums. I did (or didn't) do the 4 things above and got my plates with no problems, and I really wouldn't have described the process as laborious.
    Last edited by ram_g; 11-01-2016 at 09:24 PM.
    FFR Mk3.1 #6720. Carb'd 302. Fun.

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    Senior Member UnhipPopano's Avatar
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    Some places in TX require conformance to the emissions rules. Did you need to have the car checked for emissions?

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    Senior Member ram_g's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UnhipPopano View Post
    Some places in TX require conformance to the emissions rules. Did you need to have the car checked for emissions?
    If you apply for the Street Rod / Custom Vehicle plates under the SEMA model legislation Texas passed a few years ago, you don't need to have your car emissions checked, ever, even if you live in an EPA non-attainment county (i.e. a county that checks auto emissions). To qualify for these plates, the car must be at least 25 years old or replicate a car that is at least 25 years old.
    FFR Mk3.1 #6720. Carb'd 302. Fun.

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    ...........
    Last edited by wrp; 11-02-2016 at 07:16 AM.

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    Senior Member UnhipPopano's Avatar
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    What is the argument for classifying an 818 as a Street Rod / Custom Vehicle?

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    Senior Member ram_g's Avatar
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    Wrp,

    I wish you wouldn't have deleted your posts. I saw your response first thing this morning but didn't have the time to respond. Please don't feel bad - my initial response was not intended as a slight and I do apologize if it came across as such. Having been involved in all the letter writing and such that helped to get the Texas SEMA legislation across the line, I feel passionate about it and it burns me up that there is so much misinformation about it amongst people who should know better - the county clerks, the inspection stations, and yes the police.

    For anyone that is searching on this topic or just happens to read this, please be aware of the following points:

    1) By far the easiest way to get a '33, Coupe, or Roadster street legal in Texas is to follow the process to obtain Street Rod / Custom Vehicle plates. There is no difference between Street Rod and Custom Vehicle except that originals and replicas of model year 1948 and earlier are called Street Rods and originals and replicas later than 1948 but older than 25 years from the present date are called Custom Vehicles. You need to follow Chapter 4.3 of this document:

    http://www.txdmv.gov/txdmv-forms/doc...vehicle-manual

    2) DO NOT ASSUME THAT ANY "OFFICIAL" KNOWS MORE ABOUT THE PROCESS THAN YOU DO...assuming of course that you've done your homework. These cars are so rare that county clerks, etc. more often than not give you wrong information when you ask. But when pointed to the right sections of the manual they will comply with it and likely tell you that they've learned something in the process.

    3) There are NO USAGE RESTRICTIONS on Street Rod / Custom Vehicle plates. If someone tells you that there are, they are thinking about "Antique Vehicle" plates which is a whole different deal. Read point #2 above. Of course there may be restrictions on the basis of the insurance policy that you get, but that's between you and your agent and not related in any way to your plates.

    4) After you get the initial ASE inspection, Street Rod / Custom Vehicle cars need never to be inspected again.

    5) You do not need to apply for a Texas state issued VIN, the serial number issued by FFR works fine for this purpose.

    6) Finally, 818s and GTMs technically do not qualify for these plates (need to replicate cars at least 25 years old). I have heard of folks who who've made the case that these are replicas, but I don't know much about that.
    FFR Mk3.1 #6720. Carb'd 302. Fun.

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    Senior Member ram_g's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UnhipPopano View Post
    What is the argument for classifying an 818 as a Street Rod / Custom Vehicle?
    There isn't any, AFAIK. OP was referring to a '33. See point #6 in my post above.
    FFR Mk3.1 #6720. Carb'd 302. Fun.

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    I didn't take it as a slight, I do not however want to publish misleading or erroneous information that may confuse others. Lord help us if something erroneous got out on the internet. That being said appreciate your work and comments. I asked the mods to delete the thread but I guess they haven't gotten around to it. I do notice in your referenced paragraphs of the manual that the VTR-64A and VTR-68N are (required?) do you just go in and tell the DMV people what to put in the 68N or do you just fill it out y9ourself and skip that step given you are using the serial number of the kit? Does the 68N need a sign off? How about the 64A?
    Last edited by wrp; 11-02-2016 at 12:43 PM.

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    ram_g,

    Just want to make sure I'm crystal clear on what you're saying, as I'm in Texas as well. So under that SEMA legislation, I can register the roadster under the customer vehicle classification and it would be totally street legal no matter what engine is in it or what I've done to it? And even though it is technically not really older than 25 y/o? And the state cannot hold me accountable as I will never have to get an inspection again after it is registered?

    Almost sounds too good to be true... not that I'm doubting you, but just sayin'.

  11. #11
    Senior Member ram_g's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thumper24 View Post
    ram_g,

    Just want to make sure I'm crystal clear on what you're saying, as I'm in Texas as well. So under that SEMA legislation, I can register the roadster under the customer vehicle classification and it would be totally street legal no matter what engine is in it or what I've done to it? And even though it is technically not really older than 25 y/o? And the state cannot hold me accountable as I will never have to get an inspection again after it is registered?
    Yup, pretty much, per the current law in Texas. As for the future, they're politicians. I suppose they could pass a law that outlaws all replicas except those painted red and blue. I'm not making any predictions on future legislation changes that may or may not happen.

    Now you do have to get it inspected one time by an ASE Certified Master Mechanic, in order to qualify for the special designation. There is a form - VTR 852 IIRC - that has a checklist of what the tech is supposed to look at. Emissions is not on the list. (But windshield wipers are, which is a bit of pain.) For me the biggest hassle was finding a genuine ASE Master Tech to do the inspection (you need to submit their up-to-date certification along with the form, so you need to make sure they're really a Master Tech and will give you a copy of their certification). And if you sell the car the designation does not go with the car, so the new owner needs to go through the process again if he doesn't want to do annual inspections. But all of these are first world problems, so to speak, relative to the benefit.

    Almost sounds too good to be true... not that I'm doubting you, but just sayin'.
    Well, read that chapter 4.3 that I posted the link to post #7. And then if you really want some light bed time reading, go here (full text of Texas Transportation Code):

    http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/?link=TN

    Now look at Section 504.501 (f) (1) (A) (ii) <-- This states that a "Custom Vehicle" can be a replica, not necessarily the real thing

    And then go to Section 548.052 (2) <-- States that a vehicle with Custom Vehicle plates is not subject to annual inspection

    No, I'm not a lawyer. But as stated before I'm passionate about this because I wrote every one of the legislators in Texas lobbying for this back in 2011 IIRC (and so did hundreds of others - organized by SEMA, so by no means am I taking credit).
    Last edited by ram_g; 11-02-2016 at 08:02 PM.
    FFR Mk3.1 #6720. Carb'd 302. Fun.

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    Great info, thanks ram_g!

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    Senior Member 6t8dart's Avatar
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    Thanks for the info, I am coming up to register in Tx for my MK4 soon.

  14. #14
    Senior Member ram_g's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wrp View Post
    I do notice in your referenced paragraphs of the manual that the VTR-64A and VTR-68N are (required?) do you just go in and tell the DMV people what to put in the 68N or do you just fill it out y9ourself and skip that step given you are using the serial number of the kit? Does the 68N need a sign off? How about the 64A?
    I think you're referring to 68-A and 68-N, not 64-A? In any case neither of the 68 forms are required - these are only if you're requesting a state-assigned VIN. If you skip this and use the FFR number, show them a picture of where it's stamped on the frame and they're fine with using that as the VIN.

    If you are referring to VTR 64, note that 852 is used instead for the Custom Vehicle plates. Either 64 or 852 need to be signed by the ASE tech (it's one or the other, not both).
    FFR Mk3.1 #6720. Carb'd 302. Fun.

  15. #15
    Senior Member ram_g's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wrp View Post
    I asked the mods to delete the thread but I guess they haven't gotten around to it
    Well I hope they don't, because there's good information here that would help folks. Yes the same information is elsewhere also, but the more threads there are like this the more the information gets disseminated.
    FFR Mk3.1 #6720. Carb'd 302. Fun.

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    Member 77233349975's Avatar
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    ram_g

    First of all, I can't thank you enough for this info! You've done a wonderful thing.

    I do have a couple of quick questions, though...

    I am fixing to start the registration process here, in San Antonio TX. My problem is that my '33 hot rod (#490) was produced before FFR started stamping the serial number on the frame. Any ideas on how this will affect the registration process? Should I consider stamping it on the frame myself? If so, where? As a note, I do have the stamped metal tag from FFR with my Certificate of Origin.

    Also, just to verify, since I have a crate engine I do not have a serial/VIN # for the motor. All I have is the invoice from Summit with the part #. Will this suffice as the motor identification?

    Thanks for all of your help!!!

  17. #17
    Senior Member ram_g's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 77233349975 View Post
    My problem is that my '33 hot rod (#490) was produced before FFR started stamping the serial number on the frame. Any ideas on how this will affect the registration process? Should I consider stamping it on the frame myself? If so, where? As a note, I do have the stamped metal tag from FFR with my Certificate of Origin.
    Just rivet your metal tag to something where it looks like it belongs (firewall??) and take a picture of that. You'll be fine.

    Also, just to verify, since I have a crate engine I do not have a serial/VIN # for the motor. All I have is the invoice from Summit with the part #. Will this suffice as the motor identification?
    Honestly, less sure about this, because they do ask for the motor serial number. Are you sure yours does not have one? Is it a Ford Racing product? Because mine is a Ford Racing motor from Forte and although there was no reference to this in his invoice, it did have a metal plate glued to the block (just above the oil pan on one side) with some sort of serial number on it. I took a photo of that and they didn't look at it twice. My experience has been that they don't really check the accuracy or authenticity of what you submit to them, they just check that all the required items are there (in other words that you've ticked all the boxes that needed to be ticked) and unfortunately AFAIK motor serial number seems to be one of those boxes. You could certainly take a run at it with the invoice and hope for the best, but you may encounter pushback.
    FFR Mk3.1 #6720. Carb'd 302. Fun.

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    #377 has it's # stamped on the frame above where the steering column goes through the firewall.

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    Member 77233349975's Avatar
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    Thanks again for the info. ram-g and sheephearder. Called ford racing and the serial number on a coyote is ,driver side under the coil cover . Its on a small silver sticker ! Cant find the frame number so will rivet that metal plate some place that looks good and hope for the best. THANKS GUYS!!!!!!

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    L...........

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    Quote Originally Posted by sheephearder View Post
    #377 has it's # stamped on the frame above where the steering column goes through the firewall.
    So does 33HR #431, I would bet that #490 has it stamped as well IF that is his correct #.
    Dale Berry
    #431 7.0Liter 6 pack Hemi

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    Looks great

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    Well today I spent a few hours at the our local registration office and after one snafu, the ASE Mechanic used "assembled vehicle form" instead of "custom vehicle or street rod application". A new form corrected the issue of getting a permanent plate without yearly inspections. I have my temporary plate and windshield sticker! Make sure when doing your ASE inspection you use the right form and follow all the steps, pictures, weight, all the invoices, insurance and it can be done! I went to a Kwik Kar Lube in Arlington, TX and the guys were very helpful. There is no tax assessed on this type of vehicle, the next buyer will pay because it is a vehicle at that point. I thought I would owe a couple grand so that was a nice surprise.
    Now I got to get the door glass issues resolved and I ready to go cruising.

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    Quote Originally Posted by donshapansky View Post
    There is no tax assessed on this type of vehicle, the next buyer will pay because it is a vehicle at that point. I thought I would owe a couple grand so that was a nice surprise.....
    I think you got lucky. Tax was assessed on mine based on the FFR invoice.
    King
    Roadster #8127, ordered 7/12/13, received 9/11/13
    http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...4-Coyote-Build

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    You guys are lucky to get titles. I paid cash for a car in Arkansas, they gave me the blue title, I went to Texas dmv and applied for a texas title, and was denied because the vin was being used on a title in New Mexico that was newer than the title I had. I am having to sue the New Mexico DMV to get info on that title and car. Meantime, I can't drive, register, or even insure the car I bought TWO ?YEARS AGO.
    Nothing goes the way it should. NOTHING.

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    The tax opinion was given by calling the head office in Austin, I supplied a summary broken down into items bought in Texas and items supplied outside of Texas with invoice copies to back it up. The answer was that it was simply a purchase of components like any other person may do but that it would not be assessed until I sold the car. My total outlay was $99.50.

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    ^ what he said. The opinion in Collin County was that the Invoice showed taxes had been paid

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    I have the safety inspection done... getting insurance... do I need to get the weight of the car before I go to the DMV ?

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    Senior Member TDSapp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bakerboerne View Post
    I have the safety inspection done... getting insurance... do I need to get the weight of the car before I go to the DMV ?
    From what I have read, Yes you have to have a weight sheet from DOT certified scales. You can find one at most large truck stops.
    Tim Sapp
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    33 Hot Rod
    Delivered 5/31/2017

  31. #31
    Brandon #9196 TexasAviator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2bking View Post
    I think you got lucky. Tax was assessed on mine based on the FFR invoice.
    I would have fought that, during the time you bought the components out of state, that is across state lines and fell under purchases made before the law changed to tax things coming here from vendors outside the state. Sorry you had to pay that. I have an itemized listing of cost, receipts and spreadsheets for all the taxes I paid on the parts of the car. It adds up to around 1500 dollars over the course of the build. I am going to use that as a defense. As well as the issues that have come about since things purchased online are now taxable in some way? Very convoluted but I will have everything ready to make my case to the dmv in the coming months of registering the car.

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    Just got #927 registered and titled in Harris county as a Street Rod Replica (Assembled vehicle manual section 4.1)! I filled out the form similar to how y'all are describing (already paid taxes on parts purchased in texas, no tax yet paid on FFR invoice) however they didn't charge me any tax even after I asked them to double check it. So $141 and we are good to go. It is a bit of a crap shoot if people actually know what you are doing, but the best thing to do is bring in the entire manual, as well as all of your forms and just work it out together with the people there.

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    Recently went down to straighten out the registration of my car. Was able to get the registration changed from classic car requiring an inspection every year to a custom street rod that does not require annual safety inspection. Wish I had understood more two years ago when I registered it. There were some red faces at the counter when I pointed at the supervisor and explained its was registered as a classic because she said so. The were nice and accommodating though they did require me to inspect the car a second time for the ASE Master Tech Cert. Seems they had lost the initial inspection report which was done on a different form anyhow. I' now own this custom tag for three classes of cars.

    Ethyl Tag-1.jpgEthyl Tag-2.jpgEthyl Tag-3.jpeg

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    I realize I should probably start a new thread but I am going to throw this this out there anyway - I just purchased an unfinished hot rod kit from a guy in Illinois. The guy I purchased from provided receipts for all major components but there is one problem: The trans, and rear end were brand new so no big deal, but the engine was bought on Ebay. He has the receipt for the purchase but there is no serial number listed. So basically, he just has a receipt showing that he bought an engine, not necessarily this engine. I did get an additional form signed by the seller showing I purchased it from him and it does have the serial number listed.
    Any body think this will be a problem? Do you know if I can go ahead and get the title issued before the car is finished. I realize it can't be registered until it is complete and is inspected by the ASE Master tech , etc. I would just like to know if there is going to be an issue now so I can plan on finding another block,etc.

    I am here in Texas also, by the way.
    Last edited by sread; 04-03-2019 at 10:34 AM. Reason: add info

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    I put together a book early on. It had all my shipping lists and receipts from FFR. It also had all drivetrain components on it. I did not have a specific serial number for my motor, just a casting number. The tax office and the police department seemed to appreciate it. Generally I did not find the people to be too anal. The Harris county guys are obviously more experienced though in Collin County they have now done one of each. Finding an ASE Certified Master Tech can be a little problematic, reach out if you need help.

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    To all you folks that have done the heavy lifting on this process in Texas, I say THANK YOU VERY MUCH! When I started getting serious about this project, I checked the possibility of registration and getting the '33 Hot Rod street legal. To my pleasant surprise, it seems to be fairly straight forward. Kudos to y'all and to SEMA!

    Ordered the Stage 1 kit, '33 Hot Rod. This will be a father-son project and we are super excited to get started.

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  39. #37
    Senior Member JOP33's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tim_Dust View Post
    To all you folks that have done the heavy lifting on this process in Texas, I say THANK YOU VERY MUCH! When I started getting serious about this project, I checked the possibility of registration and getting the '33 Hot Rod street legal. To my pleasant surprise, it seems to be fairly straight forward. Kudos to y'all and to SEMA!

    Ordered the Stage 1 kit, '33 Hot Rod. This will be a father-son project and we are super excited to get started.
    Where are you out of in Texas?
    33' Hot Rod Coupe/Roadster, Fendered, Ford 302, 350hp, EFI, AOD, 4-Link, Double Adjustable Koni Coilovers, Split Rear Exhaust, Electric Power Steering, AC/Heat/Defrost, Moser 8.8"-3.55, Willwood Front/Rear Brakes, 18" x 8" Fronts/20" x 10" Rears, Ordered: 1.26.17, Arrived: 3.29.17, First Start: 7.2.18, Go Cart: 11.4.18 Paint/Body: 2.23.19

  40. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tim_Dust View Post
    To all you folks that have done the heavy lifting on this process in Texas, I say THANK YOU VERY MUCH! When I started getting serious about this project, I checked the possibility of registration and getting the '33 Hot Rod street legal. To my pleasant surprise, it seems to be fairly straight forward. Kudos to y'all and to SEMA!

    Ordered the Stage 1 kit, '33 Hot Rod. This will be a father-son project and we are super excited to get started.
    Welcome Tim, from one Texan to another. Enjoy the build.
    33 Hot Rod Stage 1 delivered on 4/27/2017, Stage 2 delivered on 9/21/2018
    LS3 376/480, 4L70E, Electric PS, Classic Auto Air, Lokar electronic sport shifter,
    Ford 8.8 w 3.73 w 4 link, Billet Specialty Legend Series MAG wheels and Mickey Thompson
    Sportsman S/R 26x8x18 front and 29x18x20 rear tires

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    Quote Originally Posted by JOP33 View Post
    Where are you out of in Texas?
    Georgetown, TX. Between Austin and Waco.

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