LearningCurve's 818C Build

[Brad Smith]

Umm, about your valve seals...installing them on the guide then pushing the valve through them is NOT the preferred method of installation. They are ridiculously delicate and tear easily. Every set of seals I've seen comes with a small plastic "straw" that has one end rounded over. The valve should be in the guide, you put the straw on the valve stem, then slide the seal down onto the guide.

Pull your intake off and look in the ports. If there's oil pooling, your seals got torn.

[LearningCurve]

Umm, about your valve seals...installing them on the guide then pushing the valve through them is NOT the preferred method of installation. They are ridiculously delicate and tear easily. Every set of seals I've seen comes with a small plastic "straw" that has one end rounded over. The valve should be in the guide, you put the straw on the valve stem, then slide the seal down onto the guide.

Pull your intake off and look in the ports. If there's oil pooling, your seals got torn.

This was not something I was aware of. Thanks for the input. Valve stem seals on defenitely near the top of the list for possible causes.

[LearningCurve]

So I completed the leak down test and this is what I got. All 4 cylinders had a drop of 8psi or less. And this was again on a cold motor. I included some photos of the spark plugs as a pulled them out and also after cleaning them. The dirty ones did have what looks like oil on them.

From the leak test I don't think it is a head gasket issue but I am open to other interpretations. If it were the valve stem seals leaking oil into the chamber, wouldn't the leak test show a greater drop in pressure?

Leak Down Test
https://photos.app.goo.gl/hHhXgBiRZWz4VvSF7

[LearningCurve]

How’s the air oil separator plumbed and oil level possibly pumping oil to the AOS if too full. Pull off and Look into any vacuum line going into the intake manifold as Bob says, introducing oil into the intake.
If all those hoses are clean going into the intake, the issue would most likely be something in the head,since compression is in line. Funny thing is all cylinders plugs are showing signs
Open the oil fill cap while running, be careful. My engine would suck/blow at the oil filler cap as engine running. But no oil came out just puffs of air.
Rich condition would be black smoke but no oily smoot out of the turbo. I believe the engine would flood out before you saw the juice out the exhaust. It would run rough until it stalls.
What does the smoke smell like? Sweet will be coolant. If it smells like a old lawn mower or mini bike it’s oil.
If you. Do a cooling system pressure test does it hold pressure? If not coolants entering combustion chamber. Hope fully some thing here helps you out!

I don't have any aftermarket AOS installed yet. The vents from the heads still run to the turbo inlet hose and that is all dry. All of the vacuum lines running to the intake manifold are dry as well. The one that was most suspect to me was the PVC valve. That runs to the turbo inlet hose and to the intake manifold. Hose to the intake manifold looked clean. I removed the hose from the PVC valve to the manifold and ran the engine for a few minutes just to see if the PVC valve would spit out any oil. I didn't see any. Again the amount of oil on the turbo exit is very excessive.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/F2rt6GmeuLsePspGA

I also opened up the oil filler cap while running the engine. I don't see any smoke coming out and it has a suck/blow action.

The smoke does not smell like coolant so I think it is now safe to say that it is oil so I don't think doing a cooling system pressure check is needed.

One last thing to note, I am using the crank case vent as it is designed for the 2.5 short block. I had the 2.0L valve covers modified to allow the crank case to vent to the valve covers.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

If it were the valve stem seals leaking oil into the chamber, wouldn't the leak test show a greater drop in pressure?[/url]

No, The intake "valve stem seals" seals between the gases/oil in the valve cover and the intake manifold air (vacuum or boost).

The exhaust "valve stem seals" seals between the gases/oil in the valve cover and the exhaust manifold gases.

Neither of these seals affect the pressure in the combustion chamber.

[turbomacncheese]

No, The intake "valve stem seals" seals between the gases/oil in the valve cover and the intake manifold air (vacuum or boost).

The exhaust "valve stem seals" seals between the gases/oil in the valve cover and the exhaust manifold gases.

Neither of these seals affect the pressure in the combustion chamber.

This. The only things keeping pressure in the cylinder are the exhaust valves, intake valves, and rings.

[Brad Smith]

But it does seem to rule out your rings as a possible cause for burning oil. Excessive or misaligned gaps would show up in a leakdown. I'm betting solid money your seals got torn.

If you have a borescope, go down the intake with that and look for pooled oil behind the valves. If no borescope, pull the intake or drop the exhaust and look in the ports. Intake seals are usually responsible for most, as they resist vacuum in the intake stream. Exhausts will leak less, but still some when exhaust pulses hit negative pressure.

Sorry, but I don't know if it's possible to replace these in-vehicle.
*CORRECTION* You SHOULD be able to do these in vehicle using that oh-so-slick looking tool in the one photo. (Has a blue sticker that says 23 on it, but I can't make out the website-share please?) Just pull the spark plug for the cylinder you're doing and connect your leakage tester with a good high pressure through it...the air will keep the valves in place while you swap the seals. (and use the straw)

[LearningCurve]

I ran an endoscope down the intake manifold and snapped some photos and videos of the valves. When the valves are opened, you can definitely see a ring of oil on the sealing surface of the valve and the head. When the valve closes and the piston starts its compression stroke, you can see the bubbles passing through the oil at the contact point of the valve and the head. Looking closely at the photos, I think I can see oil pooled up in the crevasses just prior to the valve opening in the head. There is also a photo of the piston that I took by entering through the spark plug hole. I think I can even see oil pooled up in the indentation in the piston.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/4Egffi8mkwANswf76

Looks like I will be figuring out the best way to replace the valve stem seals. I may try this without removing the motor or the heads but I know it will be a pain. It might just be easier to pull the motor so that I have more space to work on it.

[LearningCurve]

Sorry, but I don't know if it's possible to replace these in-vehicle.
*CORRECTION* You SHOULD be able to do these in vehicle using that oh-so-slick looking tool in the one photo. (Has a blue sticker that says 23 on it, but I can't make out the website-share please?) Just pull the spark plug for the cylinder you're doing and connect your leakage tester with a good high pressure through it...the air will keep the valves in place while you swap the seals. (and use the straw)

The tool to remove the valve and spring from the head I got from Company 23. They have several unique tools for the EJ engines.

http://www.company23.com/512

[Brad Smith]

Ookaaayy, this sucks, but pull the engine, pull the heads. Your leaking seals are, in the big picture, a blessing. Allow me to take you to the bright side...

In your first video (25 seconds) watch closely as the valve closes...you can see it move LATERALLY...that's not good. That guide has an issue, I would not ignore that. Compare it to the others...straight linear motion.

Your leaking seals may have actually saved you an engine.

And thanks for the link, I'll need one of those.

[LearningCurve]

First off... thank you Brad for noticing that lateral movement of the valve. I must have watched that video a dozen times and never noticed it.

I took a few months away from the project and tried to take my mind off of the inevitable task of having to pull the motor out and rebuild it again. I also took the opportunity (now that the 818 could move out of the garage under its own power) to work on some of my other cars that were in need of some maintenance before winter hits.

So, back to the issues at hand. As for the burning oil, all of the checks I have performed point to something other than a head gasket or leaking turbo. And from the oil seen in the intake at that valve, it seems that it is coming from the valve stem seals leaking oil through the head and into the cylinder. What bothers me the most about this theory is that this would mean that I would have had to have damaged at least one intake valve steam seal per cylinder (since I can tell that all 4 cylinders are burning oil). I am no expert at rebuilding heads but I would have hopped to have gotten it right on at least one pair of intake valves.

As for the lateral movement on the valve, I have a theory for that as well and am looking for some advice from the group. I checked the other intake valve on the same head and found it has the same lateral movement. All valves on the opposite head are fine. The head that is showing this issue was a head I purchased off of Ebay that had bent valves. I am guessing from a timing belt breakage. Regardless, the head was cleaned, decked, and rebuilt will all new parts (valves, seals, ect). What I am thinking happened is that when the valves bent, this may have also bent the valve stem guides. This is the only thing that I can think of that would enable the valves to have any lateral movement. Thoughts?

As for trying to replaced the valve stem guides, I am not finding much on the internet about that and what I do find is not very promising. So if that is the issue, I may have to get a new head.

Last weekend I pulled the motor out. It took me about 6 hours. This weekend I started tearing the motor down. As I go through this process I still don't see anything the conflicts with my prior findings but am still baffled that all cylinders are burning oil which would mean most (if not all) the valve stem seals are bad. The only place I found oil that I did not expect it was right at the intake side of the turbo. The oil I found is burnt. Since the hot side of the turbo is clean I am guessing that it is coming from the exhaust side of the turbo since that is covered in burnt oil. I don't know the internals of the turbo that well so I am not sure if it is even possible for oil to cross over like that.


https://photos.app.goo.gl/kYe3wM5pns24FV1t6

[NetWRX]

Grab the shaft of the turbo at the center of the fan and wiggle it left to right. If it moves the seals are shot. It should slide in and out very slightly but not move left or right.

All factory turbos have a journal bearing, its like a bronze bushing. The journal bearing has a small amount of oil pumped through it to lubricate the shaft. Normally the shaft fits tight and the oil stays in the center of the journal, but if the journal becomes worn it comes out the sides where the shaft exits. It could come out either or both sides and could account for all the oil on top of your up pipe flange.

All Subaru forced induction motors burn a little oil through the PCV system so black baked on oil looking combustion chambers are pretty normal.

This would not explain the oil on the back of your valves while your intake and inter cooler are dry, but its worth checking.

[Brad Smith]

First off... thank you Brad for noticing that lateral movement of the valve.
As for the lateral movement on the valve, I have a theory for that as well and am looking for some advice from the group. I checked the other intake valve on the same head and found it has the same lateral movement. All valves on the opposite head are fine. The head that is showing this issue was a head I purchased off of Ebay that had bent valves. I am guessing from a timing belt breakage. Regardless, the head was cleaned, decked, and rebuilt will all new parts (valves, seals, ect). What I am thinking happened is that when the valves bent, this may have also bent the valve stem guides. This is the only thing that I can think of that would enable the valves to have any lateral movement. Thoughts?

Glad to help. I showed it to the other techs in the shop and everyone went "Oooooo!" when the valve seated. Your thoughts on causality are right on the money. I would have figured they replaced them when rebuilding the head, but apparently not. New guides should get you GTG.

[LearningCurve]

It has been a while since I last posted so I will quickly try to cover what has happened over the last 6 months and try to hit the highlights as well as a few lows. After pulling the engine and only finding the suspicious valve guides as the possible cause of the burning oil, I felt I had no choice but to do a complete rebuild of everything including a fresh hone of the cylinders just to be sure I didn't put this thing back together and run into the same problem. I took the heads and short block to a professional engine builder and discussed the situation I was having. They stripped down the short block, completed a hone and rebuilt the heads with new valve guides. From that point, I cleaned everything thoroughly and rebuilt the engine from the short block up. This is where I think I found my original mistake. As I was reassembling the pistons, I found that the oil scrapper ring on two of the pistons was upside down. I must have just zoned out when I as first assembling them and didn't check to ensure I was installing them in the correct orientation. A very costly and time consuming mistake. Lesson learned....

https://photos.app.goo.gl/5jFwuTTtk72PqtMA7

Good news is that after the rebuild the engine is running smoothly with no burning oil and thus far, no leaks.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/orHKPR7f27B4tBMj6

[LearningCurve]

Recently I have been working on the headlights and tail lights. The tail lights and reverse lights were straight forward. I got those working with no issues. The headlights, turn signals, and clearance lights gave me a bit of trouble. For the headlights, it is just a single bulb for the low beam and high beam. The high beams are controlled via a shutter that is built into the headlamp. I remember reading somewhere that others had to wire in a relay to keep the headlight on while the high beams was on. I didn't have to do that as my wiring allowed me to keep the low beam on at the same time the high beam was on. The front turn signals were not to bad to figure out but what through me for a loop was that my hazards were not working. This took me a while to figure out but ended up just being a blow fuse. Also took the opportunity to wire in the new turn/hazard relay for the LED lights. Now everything blinks at a normal rate. The one thing I have noticed with the clearance lights is that they don't light up if the car is not running. I have not tried when the car is running but I am only guessing that the ~11.5V from just the battery is not enough to turn them on. I was able to fire them up with two 9 volt batteries wired in series so I know they work.

As of today I have started mounting the headlights onto the body. I am going the route of making the headlights removable so I am countersinking and sealing the bolts into the fiberglass around the edge. Thus far this looks like it is going to work out well.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/fbkWCpDuMYhF2SP1A

[LearningCurve]

I started mounting the body panels and making the cuts for the mesh vents. I am struggling with the mesh for the hoot vents. There is no vent trim piece included in my kit and FFR no longer makes them. I will have to come up with a better way to hide my inability to cut a straight line in the fiberglass. Otherwise, the rest of the body panels have gone on smoothly.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/y4zgXvbVVH1HyoTk9

[Bob_n_Cincy]

I started mounting the body panels and making the cuts for the mesh vents. I am struggling with the mesh for the hoot vents. There is no vent trim piece included in my kit and FFR no longer makes them. I will have to come up with a better way to hide my inability to cut a straight line in the fiberglass. Otherwise, the rest of the body panels have gone on smoothly.

Why don't they make them. Every kit still needs them.
Bob

[STiPWRD]

I'm pretty sure I have those hood vent trim pieces, they're yours if you want them.

[LearningCurve]

Why don't they make them. Every kit still needs them.
Bob

I agree with you. Just sounds like this is not something they are providing with the kits anymore.

[LearningCurve]

I temporarily gave up on the vents and hood mesh and started working on the doors and fenders. Also installed a Boig muffled exhaust.

Door alignment has been a huge pain and while they are not rubbing and the gaps are ok, I am still not happy with them and they will probably need more adjusting. What I did notice while installing the door latch is that my frame does not have a mounting point for the door latch to bolt to. The manual shows the door latch being bolted to this mounting point through the fiberglass. This is shown in the manual but I don't have these mounting points on my frame. I doubt this is an oversight so I am guessing that there was a design change. I don't have confirmation of that though. What concerns me here is that there is nothing holding the door in place if there is a side collision. The latch for the door is only attached to the fiberglass body panel and that's it. A side impact would tear that latch right out of the fiberglass. I included a couple of older pictures that show that area of the frame and the lack of a latch mounting point to the frame.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/6LhtN5wHyCxu9qU96

For the fenders, I went the route of attaching some yoga mat material to the wheel well and then coated with rest of the fender with spray-on undercoating. I used two 15oz cans per fender and it still seems a little thin. I might add another can or two. Otherwise they turned out well-

https://photos.app.goo.gl/jAp2SwFgXinCwMEL6

[STiPWRD]

There are brackets that are supposed to attach from the frame to the back of the fiberglass that support the latch. The brackets on the frame are located here:
frame latch support.jpg

This step is shown in the manual but it's not very clear:
door latch manual.jpg
from pg.417 rev-V

This thread might also help:
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/show...ounting-Tricks

[LearningCurve]

There are brackets that are supposed to attach from the frame to the back of the fiberglass that support the latch. The brackets on the frame are located here:
frame latch support.jpg

This step is shown in the manual but it's not very clear:
door latch manual.jpg
from pg.417 rev-V

This thread might also help:
https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/show...ounting-Tricks

Thanks for the follow-up on this. I will have to go back and incorporate those brackets. I was thinking that they were already attached to the frame. The manual was not clear on this.

[LearningCurve]

Started working on the inner door panels. It was a tedious process to ensure that I was cutting into the correct location for the door lock and door handle but after enough measuring I got it right. The door handles and locks work well. Since I am having issues with the locking/unlocking mechanism using the key on the driver side door, I have essentially built a system to lock myself out of the car.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/AictTWZNhrZBybqE9

As for the lock/unlock mechanism using the key, I am unable to get enough rotation on the key to trigger the door to unlock. Part of my issue is with the bracket that attaches to the key mechanism. There is a large portion of that bracket that does not engage with the mechanism until the key is nearly turned all the way. If this engagement area was larger I might be able to get enough rotation on the bracket to unlock the car. If anyone has any ideas or has a solution to this, please let me know.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/9QPXrAztC9Yd4D2k6

[LearningCurve]

I ended up giving up on the getting the key to work on the driver side door lock/unlock mechanism. As far as I am concerned, this was another poor design from FFR. Since I kept the electric actuators from the donor car, went ahead and bought an aftermarket key-less entry module and wired in the actuators from the donor. This looks like it will work out nicely. I also wired in a buzzer and the turn signal lights into the key-less module so now it operates just like an OEM unit with the flashes and beeps. I will still need to come up with a backup mechanism to be able to get into the car just in case the remote unlocking mechanism fails in someway. I have also started installing the power windows.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/RChjy7fWpkhLrRcw7

I did run into an issue with one of my switchback LED turn signal/reverse lights failing. The white LEDs for the reverse would no longer come on. I tried locating a replacement bulb on amazon, but what I found is that the securing pins on the shaft of the bulb that came with the kit are both at the bottom (mirror image) of the shaft. I think this design is typically just for an 1156 part number. The 1156 part does not come in switch back form. Only the 1157 part with offset securing pins (one high and one low) come in the switch back form. So right now I had to force the 1157 bulb in the socket in order to get it to fit. Something is not right about this. I can't figure out where the switchback 1156 LEDs came from.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/wECAmgdjhuUrhTUP9

[AZPete]

For a manual unlock, I just ran a thin cable from the drivers door lock to the back of the left front wheel well with a loop to pull.

I also searched for a replacement LED bulb for the backup/blinker lights and finally called FFR and they sent one.

[lsfourwheeler]

Which keyless system did you go with? I was looking at getting the basic $60 Viper system for mine. There are lots of generic ones around but I had doubts about their support and longevity

[Ajzride]

I'm happy with this one so far

https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

[AZPete]

I used a cheaper ($18.78) remote locking kit from Amazon, but there are many other options on Amazon if you search for remote lock. Mine had no security or button-start features but opened and closed the donor door locks:

https://www.amazon.com/Docooler-Cent...s%2C211&sr=8-9

[LearningCurve]

I have a question for anyone using the hood pins that were supplied with the kit. In some photos of the 818C I can find on the interwebs, there are two sets of hood pins being used to keep the hardtop mounted. One set clearly has a mounting point to the frame halfway down the rear quarter panel. The second sent I see in photos is being used right at the point where the hardtop meets the bumper. I am guessing that those hood pins are being attached to the bracket that was being used to attach the bumper and the rear quarter panel. You can see the brackets (one on each side) I am referring to in the first linked photo. I am not currently using any spacers to attach that bracket. I think the manual makes mention of using spacers for attaching the rear panel when building the 818S. Does anyone have a picture of how they are attaching the hood pin to this bracket? I think spacers would have to be used since without the spacers, it sits too high and there would not be enough room to attach the hood pin.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/MKFyRaPFjfg8AXhW8

Link to John Gamble's 818 photo showing the location of the most rearward hood pin.
https://statics.wheelwell.com/u/52e9....jpg?width=900

[LearningCurve]

I finally got the rear hardtop pins figured out. What the manual does not mention is that the kit provided two ~1.5 inch spacers that I am assuming had to be cut in half in order to get the 4 required spaces for the hood pins. Once I got the spaces cut in half, I felt that the hood pins were still sitting too high and not holding the rear of the hardtop down as much it could so I have ordered longer spacers to enable the hardtop to be pulled down further.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/fPsCaLMMfvZvoRRX8

[Mitch Wright]

To keep the deck from vibrating you can cut some pieces of 1/2 heater hose to slide over the pins for the deck to rest on.

[LearningCurve]

To keep the deck from vibrating you can cut some pieces of 1/2 heater hose to slide over the pins for the deck to rest on.

Thanks Mitch. I will keep that in mind if that becomes an issue.

This weekend I finished up the rear hardtop pins with the longer spacers and installed the engine cover latch. I think the manual stated to use a 1.5" hole saw for the latch. To me that looked to be too big. I used a 1.25" hole saw and that worked perfectly. I would be afraid that the 1.5" would have made the hole way to big.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/ppT4tCnFB7X8N1m97

[LearningCurve]

I installed the engine cover struts using the instructions provided by Mikeb75. I used rivet nuts in the engine cover to secure the hood strut brackets. Since the fiberglass is rather thin in this area of the engine cover, I reinforced the rivet nuts with JBweld epoxy. I also painted and installed the front wind screen that sits under the dash.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/sHxoQnCr9girYnKj8




Gas Strut Install by Mikeb75.

https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/show...t-instructions

[LearningCurve]

I started installing some of the additional aluminum the separates the cabin from the engine compartment. I painted everything on the engine compartment side with black undercoating. I also got the glass window installed in the partition.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/wQF8V766a1YYKgb99


I also started working on the windshield wiper. I plan to use the donor motor and go with a single arm wiper setup as I have seen others do as well. I still need to get the windshield installed before I can mount the motor but at this point it is modified for the single arm and ready to install.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/MneKK4FUMsBHxQzQ7

[sgarrett]

I like the wiper setup. Did you find details for the mods in one of the posts?

[sgarrett]

Nevermind....I asked too quickly. A search on windshield wipers has previously been unhelpful for me. But I finally figured out how to get the search to show me just the relevant posts! I found what I needed.

[Mechie3]

Kinda late, but I have some CF hood vent trim rings for the original FFR sized holes. I had them made and then used different vents. If I can find them you can have them if you pay shipping.

[lsfourwheeler]

This might not be helpful at this point, but I don't think the coupes need that aluminum panel mounted on the firewall. That's for the 818S that has the humps in the bodywork there.

Also, I'm curious how you engine wiring is routed. It looks clean! I have all my wires running over the engine on the cross rails and I've though that it looks a bit busy.

Curious to see how the wiper comes out. I'm using the Forma Cars monowiper kit and I'm quite happy with how they designed it. Could be something to look at even if you're building your own.

[LearningCurve]

This might not be helpful at this point, but I don't think the coupes need that aluminum panel mounted on the firewall. That's for the 818S that has the humps in the bodywork there.

You could very well be right about that. I had not considered that aluminum being an 818S only part. That does bring up a reoccurring issue I have with the manual. There are many specifics left out on what is to be used with the 818S vs the 818C. And since I appear to have gotten parts for both, I am not always sure what I should be using.

Also, I'm curious how you engine wiring is routed. It looks clean! I have all my wires running over the engine on the cross rails and I've though that it looks a bit busy.

I spent a lot of time routing the wiring and trying to make it look clean as possible. I don't really think I got any good pictures of it completed. I mounted the fuse box just behind the diver's seat and the bulk of the engine wiring enters the engine bay on the passengers side.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/dBKmMIGBfhOhfmKh1

[LearningCurve]

I have been working on the power windows over the last few weeks. I knew going into this part that it was not going to go smoothly and as expected, it has been a pain. Right off the bat, the weatherstripping provided with the kit was just not going to form to the window frame without a fight and I lost this one. I ended up going with a different type of weatherstripping and even before installing that the window frame edge had to be thinned as it was just too thick to get the weatherstripping to stay in place.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/CNihcFoGgFMcnKMB6

Once I got the power window mechanism installed and the window seated inside the door shell correctly, I carefully planned my cut into the door shell. My original cut was not wide enough as when the window passed through, it was putting a lot of pressure on the outside line. Even after opening it up a bit more, the window is still pressing up against the window pass-through liner. I have not decided if I will just live with it or try to make the pass-through even wider. With the window in the fully up position, there is a gap between the top of the window and the weatherstripping and there is no way that I can see to correct this with any amount of adjustments. Perhaps if the weatherstripping was thinner at the bottom of the frame and thicker at the top, I would be able to get a decent seal. Also, there is no way I can roll up the window with the door closed. The window hits the weatherstripping immediately and if I try to adjust for that, I end up throwing off how well the window seals when it is further up. Now on to the passenger side door to repeat the whole process.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/NnVmLoJqabKDwJCj7