Thanks to a member here, a few minor bugs were exposed and worked out. Turns out the "solid state" mosfets for switching are not reliable enough. They work perfect in my car (and still do), but for some reason, they kept cooking themselves in the other guys car. It was easy enough to retrofit to use a pair of standard automotive relays. The new design now uses standard automotive relays, simply due to the increased reliability.
That said.. I recently started a new job.. so.. my pet side-projects were sorta put on hold for a bit. No excuses now ... time to get this back to production ready!!
I'll try this weekend to start to built out a prototype with the new relay based outputs. Should be pretty straight forward... Not sure if I'm going to try and retrofit my car with the prototype.. or offer it up to someone here to prove it out. (hint hint)
I'll post up in here once I get the updated prototype done.
Hi. I'm JIMOCO and I am the member Skidd mentions in his most recent post. I volunteered to be a test site for his turn signal system and am vary happy I did. My roadster is a complete build with few mods. I used the Ron Francis wiring harness installed according to the manual and also installed the Russ Thompson self canceling turn signals. I am very happy with the Russ Thompson system but, after five years on the road, I began to notice that it would not stay latched in the on position for a right turn. I think, because it's a mechanical system, over time the latches wear and begin to fail. This is certainly not Russ's fault and he was more than willing to correct the issue. I simply liked the Skidd approach and I continue to recommend Russ's product. Since I was in need of some modification, I contacted Skidd and volunteered to purchase his system and be a test site. I began by modifying the Russ Thompson system by removing the latching system. I left the spring return component in as is. By doing this, I converted the device into a momentary switch. Installation of the Skidd system was easy. He provided a wiring diagram to follow but basically, all I had to do was mount the device under the dash, connect the three leads from the column to the device (the Russ Thomson system has five leads two of which can be used for another purpose. I used them for the horn and that has not changed), connect the leads from the lights and connect to a power supply. The steering position detection uses a black stripe on the steering column that activates a sensor mounted near the shaft. The width of the stripe determines when the cancellation will occur. Since I was unsure how wide to make the stripe, I printed several stripes of varying width on label paper and experimented until I found a position that worked well for me. So far the Skidd devise is working great. Turn signals work flawlessly and I now have the added feature of a lane change signal by holding the switch down for more than a second the signal cancels when the switch is released. Four way flashers are also functioning through the system. Like Skidd said, there were some initial issues with some of the electronics but now that he is using different relays there has not been any issues. I have a few hundred miles of local driving and have had no problems.
Mk4 Roadster, Picked up complete kit 8/22/14. Most FFR options except Wilwood brakes and IRS. First start 11/11/14. Go-kart 3/8/15. 347 Stroker, TKO 500, 3-link/3.27 rear. PA street legal 7/29/15.
Just wanted to update everyone on the progress today.
Made 2 prototype boards with the new relay based output design.
I'll admit, it's not quite as "sexy" having to use a pair of automotive relays.. as it was when it was just a pair of high-power MOSFETs... but.. It's far more reliable now.
I didn't use those standard big box relays, but instead a pair of those new smaller automotive relays that are found under the hood of almost all modern cars.
2 are about the same footprint as 1 regular relay, but are still good for 30A each.
I still need to make a pair of sensor harnesses, and a pair of housings.
After which.. I'll be ready to sell these to anybody looking to not only have self-canceling turn signals.. but.. also like JIMOCO above, help out and make sure I did indeed work all the bugs out this time. (pretty sure I did)
Then.. I'll get a run of proper circuit board blanks made up. Ready for anybody else who might be in the market.
Hey Skidd, nice work! I’ve been thinking about this very subject for a while. I currently use the toggle switch and have trained myself to turn it off manually, but I still forget on an occasion. I’m a Pi tinkerer myself and have been thinking of doing the same thing, but you seem to have figured it all out already, so why reinvent the wheel, right? Let me know if you’d like another tester. I would like to stick with my toggle switch, but would change it to a momentary style for this purpose.
Bradley
Bradley
Build thread - Mk4, Coyote, IRS, Wilwood brakes, old-style soft top and accessories.
The distance between "finished" and finished is literally infinite.
GTBradley.. once I get these 2 prototypes finished.... I'd love to sell you one!! Your car would be a fantastic example of a retrofit based install. So many of us use what you have, a simple toggle switch.
As for the other one.. who ever wants it.. fine with me. I thought about putting it into my car.. but my 1st gen prototype is still working just fine.
Hopefully I'll have these 2 done by next week some time. I also need to finish building my TestBench.. it's just a simple plug-and-play module with 4 standard automotive lights in it.. meant to mimic an install into a car.
I did manually test both of these modules, and they work fine... just need a more streamline way to test them if I ever end up making a whole bunch of these.
Just wondering... is there any interest in me designing and making versions of this module, that include a lever actuated signal arm? Like the one I built for my car? Which I really quite like personally. https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/show...l=1#post294338
I don't think it would be very hard for me to design something that would be easier to install than mine. Something that would obviously require a single through-hole mounting spot on the dash.
and because it already has a built in return sprint, I'd still use one of the many variations of .. lol.. toilet handles!!
finally.. a behind-the-dash switch mount that would mount/locate with the plastic threaded locking nut, and could be affixed with some simple double-sided tape to lock it in place.
Thoughts?
This is really cool idea, skidd! I know I'm a pretty long way from this stage, but I would be interested in going this route on my build. I'm following along and will have to no doubt contact you in the future for one. However, you might want to investigate this as being possibly a patentable idea?! I know I'll definitely pay you the appropriate amount of buxs for one too! You'll have to come up with a clever name? I'm thinking... The SKIDD! Signal Killing Interruption Digital Device or something like that. Awesome work!
Another update.. Prototypes 2A and 2B are going out today.. i'm hopeful I'll get some good .. and positive feed back.
If they work as well as I expect/hope.. I'll be getting a round of professional PCBs made.
Then, I should be able to provide at least a handful more of these to any interested parties.
Another update.. Prototypes 2A and 2B are going out today.. i'm hopeful I'll get some good .. and positive feed back.
If they work as well as I expect/hope.. I'll be getting a round of professional PCBs made.
Then, I should be able to provide at least a handful more of these to any interested parties.
I am absolutely interested in one of these, please message me with info and I look forward to doing business with you sir.
D'Oh! My original design has been working so well for me, I frequently forget about this project.
I need to get off my butt and get the pcb finalized and have a small batch of professional ones made.
The one thing I have been trying to accomplish was having the relays be on-board. I was looking and looking for an off-the-shelf solution to doing a clean on-board mount of them.
I still hope to find something that will allow that, but, truthfully it's not a show-stopper having the relays be a separate wired-in module. It would just be so much cleaner if they were on board.
Let me get back at looking for an on-board solution and shore-up the PCB design... and get this ball rolling again.
Friendly update... a batch of 10 production-ready modules arrived this week.
Installed one of them into my car yesterday, and so far it's working perfectly!
Omg it even has HotRodBlinkn’ on the board. I love it!!!!
So is that just the control unit to operate a couple of “sexy” relays or does that eliminate them?
Kurt
If everything seems under control, you’re just not going fast enough....
I can't believe I'm just now seeing this. I'm in. I've often thought about diving in and doing just what you've already accomplished. I think I know, but I'm curious how to wire it into my setup. Currently use LEDs, but all I have is a 3 position switch for left, off, right. I often leave them on for much longer than I should. If I change the 3 position switch to a momentary, does that get me part way there? If you can send me details maybe I can get one of these for my very own.
MkII: 408 Dart block dry sump, 750cfm carb, G-Force T-5, 8.8 rear with 3.55 gears, 3-link, Kirkey seats, black ceramic coated twister mufflers with shields and adjustable turn down tips, passenger roll bar, front and rear roll bars. 2020 GT500 Magnetic metallic, with white and lime green stripes.
@ssnk4us: Originally I was using SolidState switching. I had a couple of high-current MOSFETs. It worked 100% flawlessly in my car. I had a few fellow members helping me work out some of the kinks with prototypes of their own, and found that it was a little too easy to "kill" the module by accident. Narrowed it down to the MOSFETs, and I'm sure a design flaw I never quite figured out. So, I converted it to a solid-state control box, that yes, runs a simple pair of automotive relays. Not quite as sexy, but should be infinity more reliable. Plus, you can actually just hear the good 'ol "Click click" sound.
@Rdone585: Yes, if you change your switch to an (on)-off-(on) momentary, you'll be most of the way there. I've designed this to be as easy to retrofit as possible. Today I was working on a decent "Installation Manual". It's not quite ready, but close.
After a good shake-down of this current module design, I'll see what I need to do to get the rest of them "For Sale". I absolutely want to make these easily available to F5 roadster builders like myself, but I don't want to break/bend any forum rules either.
I too am a prototype customer. Some of the early issues mentioned by Skidd happened with my unit and he quickly resolved the problem. Like GT Bradley, I am a long time customer and the unit has not let me down. I originally installed the Ron Francis wiring harness and the Russ Thompson self-canceling turn signal system. This worked great but over time the latching mechanism on the Russ Thompson unit wore out and began to fail. Russ was great to work with and replaced the unit. Since any mechanical device can wear and eventually fail, I was interested in an electronic unit. I purchased a prototype from Skidd and am happy I did. I continued to use the Ron Francis harness and modified the Russ Thompson switch by removing the latching mechanism and converting it to a momentary switch. My turn signals operate without fail and self cancel as expected. An added bonus is the Skidd unit provides a lane change feature that is very convenient. I am happy to have a nice steering column mounted switch supported by an electronic self canceling system. Best of both worlds.
Mk4 Roadster, Picked up complete kit 8/22/14. Most FFR options except Wilwood brakes and IRS. First start 11/11/14. Go-kart 3/8/15. 347 Stroker, TKO 500, 3-link/3.27 rear. PA street legal 7/29/15.
FFR 5136 Started as a donor...donor guages, engine, trans,etc. Now...TFS street intake,stage 1 cam, GT40p's,24# injectors and 80mm MAF,70mm TB,Z-spec t-5, and PSE Halibrand wrapped with Nitto 555 G2’s. My ever evolving dream car!!
I just noticed this thread and wondered if you found out why your MOSFETs were failing?
My experience has been that you really need a diode to handle the back EMF from any inductive device. Theory from my University classes and practical experience from a poorly-sourced set of relays for one of my production-based motorcycles. Essentially, the magnetic field from a relay or a lamp has to dissipate after being energized, and this manifests itself as a back voltage that must be dissipated in the electrical circuit. The solution is to place a diode right at the inductive device's voltage terminals.
I suspect that your latest design works because the diode is located directly inside the typically-used automotive relays...
Speedway motors makes a little module that is self cancelling. I have used on many cars I have built. Just needs a momentary on -off-on toggle switch and is relatively easy to use.
Part number is 910-64070. Last one I bought was 105.00. Very small self contained module with wires coming out of it.
@cc2Arider
I never did figure out the issue with the mosfets. They worked 100% flawlessly in my car, yet died daily in one of the 2 initial alpha testers cars. I'll have to dig up my original PCB design, but you know, I actually don't think I did include a flyback diode in the original design. I'd say that is a pretty good guess. I know that lights do have a small back EMF, but perhaps I underestimated it. I really did want to stay with 100% solid-state. But, one thing that I noticed that made me realize that a small relay-block is still a smart move... my modern truck still uses relays. The turn signal in my truck is semi-solid state, but still uses relays to drive the bulbs. I figured if relays are still good enough for OEMs, why not trust the reliability of them for this project. I still might actually investigate another "test" run of MOSFET only powered modules, and see if anybody wants to do a "swap-out" with their relay based modules as an experiment. But.. we'll see how this all plays out first. And yes.. you're correct, the relays I used do indeed include their own flyback diode.
@flyingfarley. Yeah.. I've seen those modules too. Pretty simple, and pretty clean. They are timer based though. I know they tie into the brake-pedal to handle stop-lights and what not. But I was adamant that I wanted a true self-canceling system of some type for my car.
Thanks: 
Likes: 
Reply With Quote
Originally Posted by skidd
