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Thread: Adhesive

  1. #1
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    Adhesive

    Hey all,
    Should be getting my 818delivered next week I hope. I read the manual and suggested using silicone. I hate silicon always makes such a mess. I did do a search but not much popped up

    Anyone use anything else?

    TIA

  2. #2
    Senior Member edwardb's Avatar
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    Don't get heavy handed with the silicone adhesive (e.g. squeezing out everywhere) and it's no big deal. The price is right and it's plenty strong for the job. But I've seen many alternatives suggested. One is the urethane offered by Breeze: http://www.breezeautomotive.com/details.php?prod_id=228.
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    Thanks!!!

  4. #4
    Curmudgeon mikeinatlanta's Avatar
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    Depends on if you want a permanent bond or a flexible seal. Myself, I would never use RTV silicone on aluminum. Epoxy adhesives are best where you have very little flex, want permanent, and have to paint over. Urethane adhesives don't take paint well but have excellent bonding and flex. Automotive sealers are usually paintable, strong (for a sealer), and have exceptional flex. Recommend not using epoxy unless you need a structural bond. I suggest contacting your local paint supply and getting urethane panel bonding adhesive for things you want bonded and automotive sealer for where you want a permanent seal. Regardless of the brand they carry (mine is 3M), you will have products there actually intended to do the job rather than sealing a leaky window or bathtub.

    EDIT: While I know they need to keep the apparent cost of building their cars down, I'm curious how the guys at FFR would feel about it if they got their prized sports car back from the dealership and found seams and leaks bonded and sealed with silicone from HD.
    Last edited by mikeinatlanta; 11-08-2017 at 10:45 AM.
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  5. #5
    Senior Member flynntuna's Avatar
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    I've been reading up on epoxy and urethane, and I think I'm more confused. Some epoxy are better suited for bare metal on metal, but less on powder coated metal.
    Can anyone make specific recommendations for powder coated, bare metal, and fiberglass?
    Thanks

  6. #6
    Curmudgeon mikeinatlanta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flynntuna View Post
    I've been reading up on epoxy and urethane, and I think I'm more confused. Some epoxy are better suited for bare metal on metal, but less on powder coated metal.
    Can anyone make specific recommendations for powder coated, bare metal, and fiberglass?
    Thanks
    It's not just what coating you may or may not have on the metal, or even what material you are bonding to. What is the purpose of the joint? What load will it carry? How much flex will it have? and so on. Once you are there you may select a product best suited for the surface you are bonding to.

    The first thing where people get confused is with the term bonding versus sealing. A bonded joint shares load while a sealed joint does not. Silicone RTV has entirely too much flex to carry a load, and is only useful for sealing. Same for automotive sealers. If you are putting together panels of any material and only want to prevent leakage, or damp vibration then you are in need of a sealer.

    If you are wanting to carry structural load between two parts then you need an adhesive. Different types of adhesives have differing properties and you need to best match desired properties to adhesive selection.

    Very generally speaking, epoxy bonds well, is stiff, strong, and has very little flex or creep. The downside to epoxy is that due to stiffness it does not do well on a joint with a lot of flex. Epoxy although strong, carries a higher risk of fracturing in a high vibration environment. Epoxy takes paint well. It is compatible with almost any substrate with the exception of vinylester resin. In automotive use, epoxy is commonly used as a panel bonding and structural adhesive. Almost all composites in aviation use epoxy in their construction.

    Urethane tends to have much more flex than epoxy. Although technically not as strong as epoxy, it handles flex exceptionally well and has far more resistance to disbond due to joint flex or vibration. In automotive and aviation use, urethanes are used to install mounting tabs, brackets, etc. It is used to bond flexible components made of plastic and some composites. Urethane is very difficult to paint and is generally considered not paintable.

    One more issue to note is that epoxy does not play well with vinylester resin. You will need to take some special precautions if bonding vinylester components and plan to do subsequent composites work in the area.

    Short story:
    Cockpit aluminum on a normal FFR build-automotive sealant.

    Brackets, wire loom clips, and other things bonded to your body-urethane. Gluing on a fiberglass fender that will not have the seam sealed-urethane.

    Building something structural wanting joint strength beyond mechanical fastening-epoxy.

    If you can be more specific to the joint, I can assist with an optimal material to use. I will say that whether your parts are powder coated is not a significant factor in selection.
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  7. #7
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    Great info. Thanks.
    Which specific urethane would you use for bonding
    studs for mounting the hood hinge on 818.
    Believe several have used epoxy which sounds like
    not the best choice.

  8. #8
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    Always keep in mind the most important factor in is your surface prep. If you're gluing over top of anything, be it paint, powdercoat, dust or oil, your joint will only be as strong as the interaction between that and your base metal.

    In either way, I always thought the primary reason for the silicone was rattle control? I suppose you might see a marginal gain in chassis stiffness, but you'd be going from a floppy lasagna noodle to al dente at best.

  9. #9
    Doug @ Forma's Avatar
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    We use ChemLink M1 adhesive/sealant on all of our builds in place of silicone. Very strong but remains elastic after cured.

    It's available on our web store:

    https://www.formacars.com/store/chemlinkm1
    Doug
    Former Design Director at FormaCars

  10. #10
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    Thanks for the input everyone!!! Just ordered some tubes from FormaCars...

  11. #11
    Doug @ Forma's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kcarlasc View Post
    Thanks for the input everyone!!! Just ordered some tubes from FormaCars...
    Thanks!
    Doug
    Former Design Director at FormaCars

  12. #12
    Curmudgeon mikeinatlanta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by frankc5r View Post
    Great info. Thanks.
    Which specific urethane would you use for bonding
    studs for mounting the hood hinge on 818.
    Believe several have used epoxy which sounds like
    not the best choice.
    Hood hinge studs are a bit different than things like standoffs for wiring. I would use 3M epoxy panel bonding adhesive 8115. Not sure how the urethane would handle the heat.
    MKII "Little Boy". 432CI all aluminum Windsor. .699 solid roller, DA Koni shocks, aluminum IRS, Straight cut dog ring T-5, 13" four piston Brembos, Bogart wheels. BOOM!

  13. #13
    Curmudgeon mikeinatlanta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doug @ Forma View Post
    We use ChemLink M1 adhesive/sealant on all of our builds in place of silicone. Very strong but remains elastic after cured.

    It's available on our web store:

    https://www.formacars.com/store/chemlinkm1
    Chemlink is a massive upgrade over silicone.
    MKII "Little Boy". 432CI all aluminum Windsor. .699 solid roller, DA Koni shocks, aluminum IRS, Straight cut dog ring T-5, 13" four piston Brembos, Bogart wheels. BOOM!

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