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Thread: Help engine missing

  1. #1
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    Help engine missing

    The engine is in the car but is not running correctly.

    Its a 347 efi with msd digital 6 plus ignition.

    The engine is sputtering and cutting out. It wants to die when you push the clutch to come to a stop. I notice when barely on the throttle it runs the best. When limping home in 5th at 40 to 50 mph? It does not sputter (much) but is not running correctly either.

    When rolling down the road if i push in the clutch and rev it a little then engage the clutch it will accelerate for a moment then back to sputtering.

    The car a been driven very little for the last four months, so i thought bad gas and added fuel from 1/4 to 3/4 of a tank. I cant say it helped, i drove it about 15 miles after adding fuel. Four months ago it ran good but still wanted to die when stopping.

    My first thought is low fuel pressure?

    Anybody have any thoughts or experience with these kind of symptoms?
    Mk3.1 347 AFR 205cc Heads A9L EFI siemens deca 60lb injectors MSD 6AL ignition Vortech V-3 3 Link PS/PB

    -- If you can’t fix it with a hammer, you have an electrical problem ! —

  2. #2
    Senior Member Gordon Levy's Avatar
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    Check the timing and fuel pressure
    99/2000 NASA PSO Champion-2005 west coast FFR challenge series Champions
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  3. #3

    Steve >> aka: GoDadGo
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    We all know that we need fuel and fire, so as Gordon suggested check the timing and fuel pressure since this puppy is already running.

    1. Can you hear if the engine is missing or is she popping on all 8 cylinders?
    2. What is your idle RPM set and what is your initial timing set at?
    3. In addition, is the engine carburated or injected?

    Good Luck!

    Steve

  4. #4
    Senior Member frankb's Avatar
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    Agree with Gordon above. After checking those two, if the problem persists, check your TPS and MAP sensor. The MAP is non adjustable, so a failure here means replacement. The TPS is adjustable and should be reset any time you fiddle with the throttle idle stop screw.

    Frank B
    FFR MK4 #8317, 393 Cleveland, Lunati VooDoo solid roller, CHI 3V heads and intake, TKO 600, Std roadster seats, 8.8 3.55 diff, 17" Halibrand replica wheels, Ford "Magnetic Metallic", silver ghost stripe. (Sold 10/16/21)

  5. #5
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    I have to work today so may take some time to check,

    It seems to be "popping" on both sides all cylinders when starting from a stop as the rpms come up, poping no power at all, i shift down to keep the rpms down, only way to go.

    When at this stage and driving it seems to cut out every so often just for a split second

    It has efi and a complete msd ignitionimage.jpg
    Mk3.1 347 AFR 205cc Heads A9L EFI siemens deca 60lb injectors MSD 6AL ignition Vortech V-3 3 Link PS/PB

    -- If you can’t fix it with a hammer, you have an electrical problem ! —

  6. #6
    bobl's Avatar
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    Knowing the history of MSD ignitions, that would be high on my list of suspects. But, check all the obvious first.
    Mk IV Roadster, 347/516 HP, 8 stack injection, Holley HP ECU, Astro Performance T5, 3-Link 4.10 gears, A/C, PS, PB Purchased 08/2015, Graduated 02/2017

  7. #7
    Master Builder
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    Also has Vortec supercharger. My vote is bad MSD box they suck. If you dont need the fancy MSD box the new MSD streetfire is real good.

  8. #8
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    Msd came with the car, i have no preference besides a car that runs !!!

    If you could elaborate, msd sucks (i have read some things online stating the same), but then you say another msd box is a good choice? Is it just the digital6 plus that sucks?
    Mk3.1 347 AFR 205cc Heads A9L EFI siemens deca 60lb injectors MSD 6AL ignition Vortech V-3 3 Link PS/PB

    -- If you can’t fix it with a hammer, you have an electrical problem ! —

  9. #9
    Senior Member Gordon Levy's Avatar
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    MSD Boxes work or they don't. I vote for fuel delivery or timing
    99/2000 NASA PSO Champion-2005 west coast FFR challenge series Champions
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    2009 NASA TTC runner up-2010 NASA TTB runner up

  10. #10
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    This is what i found.

    The fuel pressure is bouncing from 30 to 40 psi. I turned it up to see if it would help, about 40 to 50. No change but what should it be and how much bouncing is normal???

    Moved the distributor to see if there is any change, i thought it was better but actually no change.

    Look at the picture above, the sensor on the top of the throtle body with the orange wire i assume is the throttle position sensor. I moved it and the idle came up the sputtering went away and it would rev just fine. As i continued to try to adjust it the rough idle and sputtering and killing it returned. So after moving it back, i drove down the road a little ran fairly well, maybe a well as it will ( dont know how much cam it has?). I hit the gas and it reved like a ..... I let off because i started going sideways. I think as the throttle opens it is moving the sensor or the sensor is breaking because after that it started sputtering again.

    I came back and parked it. Will play with it more maybe tomorrow.

    If i need a new sensor, how would i find the part? How would you look it up?
    Mk3.1 347 AFR 205cc Heads A9L EFI siemens deca 60lb injectors MSD 6AL ignition Vortech V-3 3 Link PS/PB

    -- If you can’t fix it with a hammer, you have an electrical problem ! —

  11. #11
    Senior Member Gordon Levy's Avatar
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    A new censor for a 1990 5.0 Mustang is what to ask for. It should be set at .97 to .99 volts.
    99/2000 NASA PSO Champion-2005 west coast FFR challenge series Champions
    Sponsor Tony B's 2007 ST2 National Championship
    2009 NASA TTC runner up-2010 NASA TTB runner up

  12. #12
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    Ok, just in case i put a new tps on it, if i set it to 1.11 or so it idles better. It tends to rev ok ,not under a load, just real quick tap of the throttle. When under a load still sputtering, and not as bad in a high gear and low rpms.

    I forgot the msd is flashing slowly. Maybe 1 per sec. I need to read up on that error code. It wasnt doing that the other day!

    Also reading up on testing the map sensor

    What fuel pressure is typical?
    Mk3.1 347 AFR 205cc Heads A9L EFI siemens deca 60lb injectors MSD 6AL ignition Vortech V-3 3 Link PS/PB

    -- If you can’t fix it with a hammer, you have an electrical problem ! —

  13. #13
    Senior Member Gordon Levy's Avatar
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    Fuel pressure should be 41psi with the vacuum disconnected. If you rap the throttle and the fuel pressure drops you have a delivery problem.
    99/2000 NASA PSO Champion-2005 west coast FFR challenge series Champions
    Sponsor Tony B's 2007 ST2 National Championship
    2009 NASA TTC runner up-2010 NASA TTB runner up

  14. #14
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    Also has pro billet 8456 distributor which has a stock style pickup, the green wire is cut and using the white wire to the distributor, so i think wireing is ok.
    Mk3.1 347 AFR 205cc Heads A9L EFI siemens deca 60lb injectors MSD 6AL ignition Vortech V-3 3 Link PS/PB

    -- If you can’t fix it with a hammer, you have an electrical problem ! —

  15. #15
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    I will check the fuel pressure, the other day it jumps about 10 psi maybe once or twice a second. Say going from 35 to 45 psi. I did not notice a drop when reving the engine. Also did not disconect the vacuum maybe that is why the bouncing?
    Mk3.1 347 AFR 205cc Heads A9L EFI siemens deca 60lb injectors MSD 6AL ignition Vortech V-3 3 Link PS/PB

    -- If you can’t fix it with a hammer, you have an electrical problem ! —

  16. #16
    Senior Member Gordon Levy's Avatar
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    inconsistent vacuum from a big loapy can can make it bounce.
    99/2000 NASA PSO Champion-2005 west coast FFR challenge series Champions
    Sponsor Tony B's 2007 ST2 National Championship
    2009 NASA TTC runner up-2010 NASA TTB runner up

  17. #17
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    i have not seen the computer yet but the build thread says its a megasqirt 2, dont know the cam specifics but says its a solid roller.... So i dont know how well it will idle.
    Mk3.1 347 AFR 205cc Heads A9L EFI siemens deca 60lb injectors MSD 6AL ignition Vortech V-3 3 Link PS/PB

    -- If you can’t fix it with a hammer, you have an electrical problem ! —

  18. #18
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    How is it that the weekend you want run somewhere with the group, your car decides it really wants to stay home!!!
    Mk3.1 347 AFR 205cc Heads A9L EFI siemens deca 60lb injectors MSD 6AL ignition Vortech V-3 3 Link PS/PB

    -- If you can’t fix it with a hammer, you have an electrical problem ! —

  19. #19
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    Boy how time flys. I have not had time to work on the car, but dont have to work tomorrow.

    I can not find a MAP sensor and dont think it has a MAF, the part on the front side of throttle body is for low idle? ( cant find where i read that).

    I will look in the AM. I picked up an MSD 6al if all else fails im putting it on!
    It has a stock ECU
    Mk3.1 347 AFR 205cc Heads A9L EFI siemens deca 60lb injectors MSD 6AL ignition Vortech V-3 3 Link PS/PB

    -- If you can’t fix it with a hammer, you have an electrical problem ! —

  20. #20
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    Was just reading it should be a MAF!
    Ecu is an A9L.
    My pad sent the last before i was done typing
    Mk3.1 347 AFR 205cc Heads A9L EFI siemens deca 60lb injectors MSD 6AL ignition Vortech V-3 3 Link PS/PB

    -- If you can’t fix it with a hammer, you have an electrical problem ! —

  21. #21
    Brandon #9196 TexasAviator's Avatar
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    My fox, had an a9l on a 345hp 302. Before I parted the car out, I shorted the computer trying to sort out an electrical problem. My car ran as you described. I scrapped the whole system and bought a race prepped block and built a 347. Point is... the a9l was hundreds of dollars and hard to find. I chunked it and went with Fitech for my cobra.

  22. #22
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    The previous owner used the spaghetti wiring technique, i have one ground wire by the steering column that i can not find what it plugged into! It has a painless harness, i am going to have to clean up all the wiring, i enjoy wiring, so its ok just a pain when you want to be out driving not fixing!
    Mk3.1 347 AFR 205cc Heads A9L EFI siemens deca 60lb injectors MSD 6AL ignition Vortech V-3 3 Link PS/PB

    -- If you can’t fix it with a hammer, you have an electrical problem ! —

  23. #23
    Senior Member seagull81's Avatar
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    You said the build info. said you had a Megasquirt 2. If so, you don't have a A9L stock computer. My stock A9L couldn't figure out my 347 with a big cam so I am using a Megasquit2. MS2 has lots of helpful info. on tuning if that is what you have. You will need the software and a laptop to do it. You need to find the computer to be sure what you are dealing with. Can you call the prior owner and talk to him?
    Steve
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  24. #24
    Senior Member cgundermann's Avatar
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    As Levy stated, your fuel pressure bouncing up/down 10 PSI means you have vacuum issues. Also, most high end distributors come with shutter wheels that are out of spec and bad HALS effect sensors. My new one did; the Ford OEM HALS effect sensor is the best and Pro-M racing sells an exact-spec shutter wheel. Replacing those and resetting my TPS cleared up my similar issues...

    Chris

  25. #25
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    The old build thread said MS2 but looking under the dash it is A9L. If it had a MS2, somone wanted to keep it and put in the A9L.
    The builder is gone. No way to contact them.
    Mk3.1 347 AFR 205cc Heads A9L EFI siemens deca 60lb injectors MSD 6AL ignition Vortech V-3 3 Link PS/PB

    -- If you can’t fix it with a hammer, you have an electrical problem ! —

  26. #26
    Boydster's Avatar
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    Whole thing sounds like a vac leak.
    ---Boyd---
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  27. #27
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    I have not found a vac leak yet! Any suggestions on carb cleaner or something to hunt leaks?
    I found the maf sensor, under the pass fender before the blower.
    Read online maf sensor testing, car runs almost the same with it unplugged. The article says that is an indication of a bad maf. Any suggestions on testing it? I dont have a meter with a frequency setting. The signal voltage jumps all over the place from idle to reving. I know this is not the correct way to test but have no other option at this time.

    The tps sensor seems like if i could turn it a little further it would run better. I have it cranked all the way clockwise with no more adjustment.
    Mk3.1 347 AFR 205cc Heads A9L EFI siemens deca 60lb injectors MSD 6AL ignition Vortech V-3 3 Link PS/PB

    -- If you can’t fix it with a hammer, you have an electrical problem ! —

  28. #28
    Brandon #9196 TexasAviator's Avatar
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    Turning the tps over a volt does nothing. The computer can only read that sensor in a very narrow band. Messing with the tps sensor is doing nothing for you.

  29. #29
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    http://youtu.be/xe1d4D-BqMc

    I tried to make a small clip of the fuel pressure guage. First YouTube attempt.
    Mk3.1 347 AFR 205cc Heads A9L EFI siemens deca 60lb injectors MSD 6AL ignition Vortech V-3 3 Link PS/PB

    -- If you can’t fix it with a hammer, you have an electrical problem ! —

  30. #30
    Senior Member Itchief's Avatar
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    Just a thought have you considered changing the fuel filter/filters

    Rick
    #8475 Complete Kit Delivered Nov 2014, started Nov 2015, Street Legal Apr 2016, Paint and Interior Completed Aug 2017, 390 BBF, March accessory kit, MSD Atomic EFI and Ready to run, TKO 500 with MidShift kit, hooker headers, 3 link, track lock with 3.55, sway bars, power steering, wipers, heater

  31. #31
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    Havent got to the point of thinking filters but will put it on the list.
    Mk3.1 347 AFR 205cc Heads A9L EFI siemens deca 60lb injectors MSD 6AL ignition Vortech V-3 3 Link PS/PB

    -- If you can’t fix it with a hammer, you have an electrical problem ! —

  32. #32
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    Not knowing the cars exact history and parts list I second puttering, when having miss firing and bogging issues first make sure the maintenance items are good, distributer cap, rotor, plugs, wires, and fuel filter. All of which can cause misfires and or bogging issues as you have described. Then I would check the TPS for correct closed and open voltages and correct as nessassay. Fuel pressures under load should also be stable. After those checks get some carb cleaner and spray it around the intake and vaccum lines and listen for the engine to idle up. If these don’t locate or fix it he issue then do a leak down check to make sure the motor cylinders and valve train are good as it’s a quick check. You also mention the wiring mess, that would be the next item as messy wiring that is not done correctly soldered, heat shrunk or OEM crimp connectors and harnessed for abrasion resistance. Shorted or broken wires due to poor instillation cause major headaches when they have issues. If all else fails the tune should be checked as a bad tune can put holes in pistons, burn valves and wipe bearings and cause the problem you describe. Also the tuner will quickly know if it’s a bad ecu issue.

  33. #33
    Senior Member Itchief's Avatar
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    After watching your video I have a question

    What happens to your fuel pressure when you shut off the motor

    Does it stay at about 40psi or quickly drop to zero

    If it drops to zero I would check the pressure regulator and then the pump

    Rick
    #8475 Complete Kit Delivered Nov 2014, started Nov 2015, Street Legal Apr 2016, Paint and Interior Completed Aug 2017, 390 BBF, March accessory kit, MSD Atomic EFI and Ready to run, TKO 500 with MidShift kit, hooker headers, 3 link, track lock with 3.55, sway bars, power steering, wipers, heater

  34. #34
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    I started the car, looked at the pressure gauge, reached around the pass side to turn off the car and by the time I looked back at the gauge, it was at 0. I think the pressure reg may be bad.

    I did not have time to do any other checking, so I do not know if this will fix it but thank you all for your help so far and I apologize for not thinking about what the pressure did when shut off before Itchief pointed it out (thank you). Forest for the trees, forest for the trees!
    Mk3.1 347 AFR 205cc Heads A9L EFI siemens deca 60lb injectors MSD 6AL ignition Vortech V-3 3 Link PS/PB

    -- If you can’t fix it with a hammer, you have an electrical problem ! —

  35. #35
    Senior Member Itchief's Avatar
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    No problem hope it helps solve your problem

    Rick

  36. #36
    Senior Member CraigS's Avatar
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    On the stock efi there is a vacuum tree under the upper intake. Hard to see but is a junction for 3-4 vac hoses and is a common problem since it is out of sight.
    FFR MkII, 408W, Tremec TKO 500, 2015 IRS, DA QA1s, Forte front bar, APE hardtop.

  37. #37
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    I am attaching a video of the car revving for the next post.
    https://youtu.be/lvW-646KpVw
    Mk3.1 347 AFR 205cc Heads A9L EFI siemens deca 60lb injectors MSD 6AL ignition Vortech V-3 3 Link PS/PB

    -- If you can’t fix it with a hammer, you have an electrical problem ! —

  38. #38
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    Ok, I have been putting off working on this problem - but can wait no longer.....

    I uncovered the car checked the compression - all cylinders are 140 to 145. put new plugs in and fixed the error code on the 6AL Plus MSD box (put in a new one!)
    I cleaned the MAF sensor - Last time the car ran the same with it unplugged or plugged in - I will check again tomorrow, i read that this probably means a bad sensor.
    I dont think the idle control valve should be part of the issue.

    So at this point I think the megasquirt got pulled out and the a9l put in its place. so I may need to upgrade computers - any suggestions on type and program???

    The TPS is new but no difference from the old but when I set it to .97 volts and start the car when I start to move the throttle the rpms drop like its going to stall. or has a dead spot. then at higher throttle it comes back but has a miss to it or a sputter

    With the TPS moved to 1.38 volts it runs much better, still not correct but a lot less missing and sputtering. Maybe the a9l is at fault - It probably has bigger injectors and the A9L is set for the smaller ones so the tps turned up makes the computer think more air is flowing .... no I think that is backwards. I am telling the computer there is more air flow than there is when the tps is set higher?

    So after all this rambling, comes the questions -
    How can I check the size of the injectors??
    Does the MAF sensor probably need replaced?
    What about cleaning the injectors?
    Any good links on pulling the a9l program to see how it is set up?
    Any ideas on finding a tuner in my area?

    I will put a link up on the car revving (easier to do it from the ipad)
    Mk3.1 347 AFR 205cc Heads A9L EFI siemens deca 60lb injectors MSD 6AL ignition Vortech V-3 3 Link PS/PB

    -- If you can’t fix it with a hammer, you have an electrical problem ! —

  39. #39
    Unconventional Builder Joee's Avatar
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    The A9L can run with bigger injectors as long as the MAF is matched to injectors. I see concern in 2 things 1 if the car runs same wit or without maf connected that needs further investigation. Once my maf connection came loose car ran but no mid to top end. 2 if it was a megasquirt setup then it could have a mismatched maf inj combo bc that can be tuned in mega squirt but a9l must have a maf that is tuned for the injector size. If they are Ford oem then what color are they? Should be green, 42lb, for boost or at least red 30lb.
    Last edited by Joee; 02-18-2018 at 12:24 PM.
    Roadster Mk3 5294, 302 Comp XE276HR cam, AFR 185 heads, 650 Quick fuel carb, Air Gap intake, T-5 3.55 gear Levy Upper & Lower Front and Rear control arms Purch Jan 2008 Tagged Mar 2012 Best ET 12.14 @113** SOLD 4/8/18 **
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  40. #40
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    They are black

    90mm 1l3f-12b579-ab Maf ford number on part
    Last edited by Just puttering; 02-18-2018 at 12:45 PM. Reason: Add maf info
    Mk3.1 347 AFR 205cc Heads A9L EFI siemens deca 60lb injectors MSD 6AL ignition Vortech V-3 3 Link PS/PB

    -- If you can’t fix it with a hammer, you have an electrical problem ! —

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