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Thread: Black&Copper - 33 Hot Rod #1028

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  1. #1
    Senior Member AJT '33's Avatar
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    Black&Copper - 33 Hot Rod #1028

    So its finally time to go online and start posting about my build thread, I look forward to all your sage advice and words of wisdom as I officially start my build this coming Sunday. My shop I built is ready, the parts are all here (the balance on their way very soon) and its time as the weather just turned and winter and that ugly white stuff is on its way. I have an amazing setup and very lucky my son is a Mechanic so he is looking forward to getting this underway as well (even though he is not a fan of doing the inventory of everything. I will detail my build at a later date, looking forward to an official start!!
    20171027_184302_resized.jpg20170923_125115.jpg

  2. #2
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    Congrats! Nice shop.

  3. #3
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    That looks awesome.

  4. #4
    Ol Skool
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    I like your Roof truss design. I did one like that in Virginia with no questions asked. In NY I had to get a P.E. Stamped snow load calc to build it. My last one I used attic trusses and put my smaller "toys" up stairs.
    Black n Copper will look nice.

  5. #5
    Senior Member AJT '33's Avatar
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    TY, I wanted to have max vertical height. We have truss manufacturers that are required to do all that work, its a requirement in Canada.

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    Senior Member JOP33's Avatar
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    Great set-up! Good luck.
    33' Hot Rod Coupe/Roadster (GEN 1), Fendered, Ford 302, 350hp, EFI, AOD, 4-Link, Double Adjustable Koni Coilovers, Split Rear Exhaust, Electric Power Steering, AC/Heat/Defrost, Moser 8.8"-3.55, Willwood Front/Rear Brakes, 18" x 8" Fronts/20" x 10" Rears, Ordered: 1.26.17, Arrived: 3.29.17, First Start: 7.2.18, Go Cart: 11.4.18 Paint/Body: 2.23.19, Back Home: 11.24.19, Completed: NEVER!; View More Pics @ https://starmobileone.com/

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    Oh, to have that much space! That's a great way to start. Following along..
    James

    FFR33 #997 (Gen1 chassis, Gen2 body), license plate DRIVE IT says it all! build thread
    My build: 350SBC, TKO600, hardtop, no fenders/hood, 32 grill, 3 link, sway bars, 355/30r19
    Previous cars: GTD40, Cobra, tubeframe 55 Chevy, 66 Nova, 56 F100

  9. #8
    Senior Member AJT '33's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoadRacer View Post
    Oh, to have that much space! That's a great way to start. Following along..
    Mind you its filling up really quickly as most of you builders already know!!!

  10. #9
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    What a great work space!! Very nice job on the garage!

    Good luck as you start your build. Like some others have already said, black and copper will look pretty cool.

    I know it will be fun building with your son. I hope you get to enjoy each other's company a great deal while you put her together!

    Regards,

    Steve

  11. #10
    Senior Member AJT '33's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WIS89 View Post
    What a great work space!! Very nice job on the garage!

    Good luck as you start your build. Like some others have already said, black and copper will look pretty cool.

    I know it will be fun building with your son. I hope you get to enjoy each other's company a great deal while you put her together!

    Regards,

    Steve
    Hey Steve, thanks! We are looking forward to this a lot. I think variations of clean copper, burnt copper in key areas will really make it pop. Steampunk but a light version, at least for this one!!

  12. #11
    Senior Member AJT '33's Avatar
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    Well good progress this week in the end, I received the correct upper control arms from FFR and yes they are correct! So I got them prepped for paint, got them primed, base coated with color and 3 coats of clear. With the paint system that I have no need for color sanding and buffing, this system is killer! Also got my rear knuckles done as well.
    20171221_205841.jpg20171221_205824.jpg20171219_212551.jpg

    Once completed I was able to move on to the differential, now this was a beast and I needed to figure out how to be able to prime and prep it. Well looking around the shop it dawned on me that I am not taking advantage of my engine crane so I rigged up my rotator with a few bolts on the diff and voila, instant height adjustable diff sling! It actually worked out really well, would recommend to anyone else who need to detail theirs!
    20171221_200454.jpg20171221_205810.jpg20171221_214304.jpg20171221_214339.jpg

    Lots of assembly ahead over the holidays and then i move along to detailing my engine and putting together the engine start stand. Need to get this pony started and turn it into a stallion!!

    Merry Christmas to everyone and a prosperous Happy new Year!!!

  13. #12
    Senior Member AJT '33's Avatar
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    Started to mock up the transmission cover such that I can modify the one supplied to have more space. on either side as well give us the space we need to run wiring. As the one that is supplied is a fit all I expected that we would need to custom fit it.
    20180224_115037.jpg 20180224_115053.jpg 20180224_115107.jpg 20180224_121804.jpg 20180224_121819.jpg

  14. #13
    Senior Member AJT '33's Avatar
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    So I received the recommendation back from FFR as such "...for the door try loosening the door shell from the frame and rack it or twist it to see if you can get the gap closer. It will take more muscle than you think. If you still can’t get it straight you can actually tap threads into the frame ¼” -20 and use some button head bolts to adjust the body in and out. Once you get that spaced you can put shims between the body and the frame.".
    So based on that recommendation and also the feedback I received from the Facebook FFR 33 Family of builders, I may do a little bit of everything, I will move the body at the front of the door outward a bit but not too much otherwise it will create a gap at the firewall, there's a fine line there. I will also move it in so the front is as flush as possible as suggested below and hopefully I will have the rear of the door "in" from the body face of which I can do the reverse of the front where i would add material to the back end in this case.

    Should be an interesting night tonight to see what combination will fix the door, maybe fix the gap alignment at the from of the body where it connects to the front fiberglass lip. Most likely be putting it back on the lift to be able to move it up and down easier then sit it on the ground for final alignments so its sitting the way it would when running.

  15. #14
    Senior Member AJT '33's Avatar
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    We got started, placed the frame in its location for the next little while and set it up on jack stands for now. My son and I got the TV and stereo system in and were ready to go!20171105_151914.jpg20171105_151925.jpg20171105_151932.jpg20171105_151946.jpg

  16. #15
    Senior Member AJT '33's Avatar
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    Well yesterday was a very productive day, my son was assembling all the parts that I had previously painted inclusive of the differential. One item that has come up once we had it installed is how it is offset to the passenger side by approximately 3/4" as you can see in the picture.
    20171223_165805.jpg20171222_200451.jpg20171222_200446.jpg
    Has anyone else encountered this? Is this something to worry about? I will be once again asking FFR but really would like to see if this is consistent with other builds that have an IRS rear end. Much appreciated!!

  17. #16
    Ol Skool
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    Annealed copper sheet over the firewall aluminum would look cool. Not sure if I would try counter sunk rivets in the aluminum and then some solid copper rivets or use common fasteners like button heads for both. I thought about it on mine, but with the copperish gold valve covers I wanted it all becomes one copper blob. Similar to using black wrinkle and then wondering why it doesn't show in the pictures. Steampunk makes me think of solid copper rivets hammered in the sheet. A lot of opportunity. Reddish alloy, green patina, dark, polished, etc. You can use some cool etchant tricks also. maybe a little silver or nickel overlay. You may be able to electroplate the aluminum?? I haven't looked at that. Somebody has done extensive copper on a 33. maybe you have seen that one for inspiration. It wouldn't be that hard to make a good size tank and do it in your garage. Well maybe not your brand new nice garage. Stuff turns magically green all around you when playing with chemicals and copper...

  18. #17
    Senior Member AJT '33's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erlihemi View Post
    Annealed copper sheet over the firewall aluminum would look cool. Not sure if I would try counter sunk rivets in the aluminum and then some solid copper rivets or use common fasteners like button heads for both. I thought about it on mine, but with the copperish gold valve covers I wanted it all becomes one copper blob. Similar to using black wrinkle and then wondering why it doesn't show in the pictures. Steampunk makes me think of solid copper rivets hammered in the sheet. A lot of opportunity. Reddish alloy, green patina, dark, polished, etc. You can use some cool etchant tricks also. maybe a little silver or nickel overlay. You may be able to electroplate the aluminum?? I haven't looked at that. Somebody has done extensive copper on a 33. maybe you have seen that one for inspiration. It wouldn't be that hard to make a good size tank and do it in your garage. Well maybe not your brand new nice garage. Stuff turns magically green all around you when playing with chemicals and copper...
    Excellent Idea! I was looking to see how I could do something with that aluminum back wall, I actually have zinc rich primer and was going to possibly paint it with VHT Burnt Copper like the bare metal parts and some of the "exposed" black powder coated steel. I was on the wall because i did not want to overwhelm the look with copper. The other option is to stud on a sheet of brass or bronze for a color and finish effect. I had found copper rivets that would need to be peaned in place with a hammer, but again a lot of work to get a decent finish. Options are still open, need to get there first then decide. All input is deeply appreciated as this rolls out.

  19. #18
    Senior Member AJT '33's Avatar
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    So I dropped a note to Tony Zullo at FFR and he confirmed that the offset is designed that way due to the differential design being offset. The key is to have the engine and the differential parallel in both the plan and profile views even if they are offset to each other, this way there is no differential motion of the drive shaft. There is a great post in the blogs on drive shaft phasing: "http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?22798-U-Joint-Phasing-Video-amp-Why-It-Is-Important&highlight=drive+shaft+angle" this actually shows how important it is for the motor and differential to be aligned to each other, parallel in both plan and profile. That is why you see a lot of shimming of the trans mount to align the engine with the differential. We will be very careful with this when we setup the engine and differential alignment.

  20. #19
    Senior Member AJT '33's Avatar
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    BIG BUILD DAY TODAY For the first time B&C put her feet on the ground and rolled to her new home for the push to get her running!
    20180306_191527.jpg 20180306_192440.jpg 20180306_192906.jpg 20180306_193330.jpg20180306_193353.jpg
    My brother in law lined me a set of tires from his mustang and we were able to get her on her feet and roll it to the lift and get her up to be able to work easier. Again my son was key to getting this done! Now the real work and fun begins!

  21. #20
    Senior Member AJT '33's Avatar
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    Looking to see what other 33 owners with an IRS rear end have to say about this one. I posted on the Facebook site to see what other may have to say however I think the best spot is here with the other Hot Rod builders. My son assembled and installed the rear bearings calipers, disks etc... yesterday. In doing so he discovered that the pads sat about an eight inch high on the disk.
    25593833_10156024919629732_5911787693545907113_n.jpg25660259_10156024919569732_5499556761296691684_n.jpg
    Since the dis is trapped on the bearing it can only be turned concentrically. We trimmed the pad lips a bit to allow them to sit flush to the top however we were wondering if others had the same issue when installing their IRS rear end brakes?
    25550315_10156024919744732_4260328805464719323_n.jpg25593983_10156024919814732_7314985017843896978_n.jpg25994698_10156024919864732_8461935017616533946_n.jpg20171223_193855.jpg20171223_172647.jpg

    Here is a pic of the final products, they sit well however there is still a gap under the pad which we feel is normal as you cannot have a pad taller due to the pad sitting on the inside of the caliper on the calipers body.
    FB_IMG_1514083844501[1].jpg

    Hope everyone is enjoying their Christmas Holidays!!

  22. #21
    Senior Member CVOBill's Avatar
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    Congrats on the new build!
    CVOBill
    MK2 #???? Delivered 11/2002, Finished and Titled 6/2003 5.0, T-5, 4-Link, Sold 3/2005
    Hot Rod #304 purchased 5/28/2017 from original owner Unassembled . Titled and plated 8/24/2017 Coyote,
    TKO, 3-Link, Heat, A/C, Electric Power Steering, Convertible top
    MK4 #9524 Picked up 1/18/19 306 Blueprint, T-5, 4-Link, Gas-N Pipes, Heater

  23. #22
    Senior Member TDSapp's Avatar
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    AJT,

    Here is a link to a story in Hot Rod about a "Steampunk" FFR Hot Rod.


    http://www.hotrod.com/articles/1933-...ig-block-ford/


    This is probably the one that Erlihemi was talking about.




    Also in photo #1 in your last post is that you or your son in the photo?
    Tim Sapp
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    33 Hot Rod
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  24. #23
    Senior Member AJT '33's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TDSapp View Post
    AJT,
    Here is a link to a story in Hot Rod about a "Steampunk" FFR Hot Rod.
    http://www.hotrod.com/articles/1933-...ig-block-ford/
    This is probably the one that Erlihemi was talking about.
    Also in photo #1 in your last post is that you or your son in the photo?
    Hey Tim, I knew of that build, it gave me a lot to look at for my build.
    Yup that's my son in the picture, he had just gotten his hair cut off a little over a week ago as part of a campaign to support cancer research that the garage where he works (Hyundai Dealership) was putting on. He at least now knows how it will feel when he gets my age!!

  25. #24
    Senior Member TDSapp's Avatar
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    AJT,

    Have you decided on the power train yet? Or at least have a direction that you are thinking about?
    Tim Sapp
    11110001101
    Build Blog: http://hotrod.sapp-family.com/blog/

    33 Hot Rod
    Delivered 5/31/2017

  26. #25
    Senior Member AJT '33's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TDSapp View Post
    AJT,

    Have you decided on the power train yet? Or at least have a direction that you are thinking about?
    I have a 5L Coyote Engine with a Tremek TKO600 tranny. The engine actually came out of a 2013 Ford F150, I have had it for a couple years now. I am building a motor start stand (i have all the parts) and will be getting it mounted and hooked up in parallel as I want to hear the heartbeat before it gets transplanted into the frame. Its been sitting in the garage in my house since i had it giving the crank a partial turn every so often, all the liquids have been removed.
    20150910_205059 - Engine View 1.jpg20150910_205114.jpg20150910_205124.jpg
    Last edited by AJT '33; 11-07-2017 at 02:42 PM.

  27. #26
    Senior Member TDSapp's Avatar
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    Nice... Sounds like you have a great motor to go in it.


    Tim
    Tim Sapp
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    Build Blog: http://hotrod.sapp-family.com/blog/

    33 Hot Rod
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  28. #27
    Senior Member AJT '33's Avatar
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    Looking forward to getting the brake lines setup over the next couple weeks (Business travel will hold me back a bit!) so we can get into the wiring and the firewall painting and installation!!
    20171224_121115.jpg

  29. #28
    Ol Skool
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    There are some nice powder coats in copper also. The problem with powder coat is I can never get it to match the similar shade in paint. I have used VHT and I am happy with it. I use one of the VHT satin golds for my Desoto stuff and its sorta copperish. Of course if you mix real copper work with some powder coat and some paint you need to be aware of finish. I use satin clear when I cheat on different finishes. Gloss will amplify any differences in shade. With some test samples and a little time you could really do a lot with it though. Copper is a little pricey, but, it would be so cool to show the craftsmanship.

    Enjoy!

  30. #29
    Senior Member AJT '33's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by erlihemi View Post
    There are some nice powder coats in copper also. The problem with powder coat is I can never get it to match the similar shade in paint. I have used VHT and I am happy with it. I use one of the VHT satin golds for my Desoto stuff and its sorta copperish. Of course if you mix real copper work with some powder coat and some paint you need to be aware of finish. I use satin clear when I cheat on different finishes. Gloss will amplify any differences in shade. With some test samples and a little time you could really do a lot with it though. Copper is a little pricey, but, it would be so cool to show the craftsmanship.

    Enjoy!
    I have looked into powder coating however I am not sure of the colors and then the ability to touch up. As I am not afraid of painting cars or their components (have painted a couple cars and hydroplane racing boats already in my life) I don't think it gives me much of an advantage to powder coat versus painting, plus I don't have to beg someone to do the work, I just go ahead and get it done. Regardless all this input is great as "Johnny 5" would say!!!

  31. #30
    Senior Member AJT '33's Avatar
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    Well got the firewall riveted in, little bit of a challenge to make sure I didnt ding it in any way. so after doing that, twice, I ended up taking a piece of stiff cardboard, drilled a small hole, slid it over the rivet and made a temporary shield!
    20180117_195111.jpg20180117_195204.jpg
    End result with the Black head rivets looks fantastic!
    20180117_195830.jpg20180117_200321.jpg

  32. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by AJT '33 View Post
    Well got the firewall riveted in, little bit of a challenge to make sure I didnt ding it in any way. so after doing that, twice, I ended up taking a piece of stiff cardboard, drilled a small hole, slid it over the rivet and made a temporary shield!
    20180117_195111.jpg20180117_195204.jpg
    With all this great detail work (it does look amazing) I have to ask - are you going to drive this, or show it? No judgement, I love how different we all are!
    James

    FFR33 #997 (Gen1 chassis, Gen2 body), license plate DRIVE IT says it all! build thread
    My build: 350SBC, TKO600, hardtop, no fenders/hood, 32 grill, 3 link, sway bars, 355/30r19
    Previous cars: GTD40, Cobra, tubeframe 55 Chevy, 66 Nova, 56 F100

  33. #32
    Senior Member AJT '33's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoadRacer View Post
    With all this great detail work (it does look amazing) I have to ask - are you going to drive this, or show it? No judgement, I love how different we all are!
    Initially I will most likely show it while its still pretty however with the amount of car events locally I will be driving it. In the end it will be my sunny day driver to work, cant not do that!!! Hey you build it to be proud of it and then you can enjoy driving it even more!!

  34. #33
    Senior Member AJT '33's Avatar
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    OK, Setting up and finally able to see some progress in the fact that we are now ready to start to add "color" to the parts that are raw and some that are already powder coated black. Still on the fence if I should recoat the rear control arms Burnt Copper like the front arms since they are already powder coated black. Any opinions on this?? I have my tables setup and will get the other side of my lift setup for the painting, have a few questions for the veterans
    1) Has anyone painted over the powder coating and if so what was the prep to the surface of the powder coat?
    2) For the brake calipers, they're going to be Burnt Copper, other than a real good scrub down with the proper solvents, any recommendations for surface prep beyond that? I don't think I want to sand blast as I have an etching primer for the VHT paint, opinions?
    3) Raw steel parts with the pinions already mounted, how did you prep and clean the area around the boot? Once cleaned any special tapes to prevent any paint or sandblast from getting in/under the boot?

    Please ping in as this will be my mission over the next couple weeks, then we start the true assembly of the toy.

    20171123_201358.jpg20171123_203743.jpg20171123_203746.jpg20171123_203753.jpg20171123_203755.jpg

  35. #34
    Senior Member JOP33's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AJT '33 View Post
    OK, Setting up and finally able to see some progress in the fact that we are now ready to start to add "color" to the parts that are raw and some that are already powder coated black. Still on the fence if I should recoat the rear control arms Burnt Copper like the front arms since they are already powder coated black. Any opinions on this?? I have my tables setup and will get the other side of my lift setup for the painting, have a few questions for the veterans
    1) Has anyone painted over the powder coating and if so what was the prep to the surface of the powder coat?
    2) For the brake calipers, they're going to be Burnt Copper, other than a real good scrub down with the proper solvents, any recommendations for surface prep beyond that? I don't think I want to sand blast as I have an etching primer for the VHT paint, opinions?
    3) Raw steel parts with the pinions already mounted, how did you prep and clean the area around the boot? Once cleaned any special tapes to prevent any paint or sandblast from getting in/under the boot?

    Please ping in as this will be my mission over the next couple weeks, then we start the true assembly of the toy.

    20171123_201358.jpg20171123_203743.jpg20171123_203746.jpg20171123_203753.jpg20171123_203755.jpg
    A high temp tape is usually required for powder coating. If you are using someone to powder ask them to supply or just let them do it. We usually use several layers of duct tape to protect from blasting.
    33' Hot Rod Coupe/Roadster (GEN 1), Fendered, Ford 302, 350hp, EFI, AOD, 4-Link, Double Adjustable Koni Coilovers, Split Rear Exhaust, Electric Power Steering, AC/Heat/Defrost, Moser 8.8"-3.55, Willwood Front/Rear Brakes, 18" x 8" Fronts/20" x 10" Rears, Ordered: 1.26.17, Arrived: 3.29.17, First Start: 7.2.18, Go Cart: 11.4.18 Paint/Body: 2.23.19, Back Home: 11.24.19, Completed: NEVER!; View More Pics @ https://starmobileone.com/

  36. #35
    Senior Member AJT '33's Avatar
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    OK, long weekend of work, thank god for my son (Extremely proud Dad here!) without him I would not be as far along as we are IMO. While he worked on electrical and miscellaneous items as I get parts we find that need painting, painted, I have started the daunting task of cleaning my donor engine, my son got all the parts that we could strip off removed and placed away for the time being. Then with a small wire brush on an air grinder I started to work on brushing/cleaning off everything I could get off. LOTS of loose scale and corrosion that came from our salt ridden winters up here. 20171230_115942.jpg 20171230_120024.jpg I am using a 1" medium wire brush such that the wires spin outwards when at a higher speed and can settle a bit more at lower speeds. I also found some small brass brushes for the Dremmel (1/4" brush) and I used those to get into all those small crevices, they actually worked out very well however the two that i bought were toast after the first round on each side, need to get a couple more to finish the job. So far it looks good and clean and as soon as we get the puller to remove the front pulley I will go ahead and finish the front and hopefully by this weekend be in paint!
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  37. #36
    Senior Member AJT '33's Avatar
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    So finished the hose mockups, air filter and time to tighten down the fittings as the goal this weekend is to be able to complete hooking everything up, wiring, plumbing etc... and turn over the engine to allow the new fluids to be pushed through the motor and allow us to check initial pressures. Once that's done it's on to installing the plugs and connecting the last of the wiring, adding some fuel into the tank, letting that prime up and hopefully no leaks, then the hopeful moment of truth as a lot of you have already gone through!! Yes, I will post the infamous first start video which is tradition!!

    No driving around yet, just first starts and then a blitz to get the body back on, lock it onto the firewall, fit up the doors, trunk, hood, bottom lip, then the process of adjusting, sanding, levelling, aligning, then on to primers and a lot of manual labor to sand smooth everything together. That will be a full onth of work for sure. Once thats done, tear down, pull the bosy and parts to send them off to paint. While thats underway we will be doing all that clean up work on the wiring, hoses such that when the everything starts coming back from aint, its final assembly time!! (after the go-karting has happened as well!!

    Exciting times, not bad since starting this project at the beginning of November last year. Looking forward to getting the next 6 weeks under our belt!!

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  38. #37
    Senior Member AJT '33's Avatar
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    Well progress is still happening, will be attending the Syracuse Nationals this Saturday and add to the "Wish List". I piked up my next addition to the car for when i will be assembling it hopefully in the next few weeks. I bought the same Dash panel that Bill Price had installed in his car Ethyl however i base coated it with Burnt Copper and then had it Hydro Dipped and clear coated. he end result far surpassed what i was hoping for!! In low light you can see that there is some type of gear there, however when in full sun it really pops and the details jump out at you!! Here are just a few of the pictures that I took this morning.
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    I cant wait to see what this will look like mounted over a satin black dash!!

  39. Likes CVOBill, FF33rod, JimLev, wrp, TDSapp, Chris C, Noodles33 liked this post
  40. #38
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    I painted over the powder coated arms. Powder coat makes for a very good base. Wet sand and/or scuff pad 400-600 wet. Sealer, base , clear. I use HoK products.



    Olli

  41. #39
    Senior Member AJT '33's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olli View Post
    I painted over the powder coated arms. Powder coat makes for a very good base. Wet sand and/or scuff pad 400-600 wet. Sealer, base , clear. I use HoK products.

    Olli
    Excellent!! That is what we were thinking as well. TY!

  42. #40
    Senior Member AJT '33's Avatar
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    Okay everyone I need some more help on a measurement on a 5L Coyote Engine oil pan. Could some of you put a straight edge on the bottom of your oil pan and measure to the top edge of the oil pan, not the gasket or block. I would like to validate this measurement against a stock 5L Mustang Coyote Engine (GT, Boss 302,or Racing Pan) As I amusing an engine form a 2013 F150 I want to see if i really need to replace the pan. as far as i can tell my pan is only 6-5/8" and most replacement racing pans are the same. hence why I would like to see what other pans from Mustang 5L engines have as a height.

    Your help is deeply appreciated!!!! TY!
    Last edited by AJT '33; 01-21-2018 at 07:46 PM.

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