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Thread: Black&Copper - 33 Hot Rod #1028

  1. #1
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    Black&Copper - 33 Hot Rod #1028

    So its finally time to go online and start posting about my build thread, I look forward to all your sage advice and words of wisdom as I officially start my build this coming Sunday. My shop I built is ready, the parts are all here (the balance on their way very soon) and its time as the weather just turned and winter and that ugly white stuff is on its way. I have an amazing setup and very lucky my son is a Mechanic so he is looking forward to getting this underway as well (even though he is not a fan of doing the inventory of everything. I will detail my build at a later date, looking forward to an official start!!
    20171027_184302_resized.jpg20170923_125115.jpg

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    Congrats! Nice shop.

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    That looks awesome.

  4. #4

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    I like your Roof truss design. I did one like that in Virginia with no questions asked. In NY I had to get a P.E. Stamped snow load calc to build it. My last one I used attic trusses and put my smaller "toys" up stairs.
    Black n Copper will look nice.

  5. #5
    Senior Member JOP33's Avatar
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    Great set-up! Good luck.
    33' Hot Rod Coupe/Roadster, Fenderless (Maybe), Ford 302, 350hp, EFI, AOD, 4-Link, Double Adjustable Koni Coilovers, Split Rear Exhaust, Electric Power Steering, AC/Heat/Defrost, Moser 8.8"-3.55, Willwood Front/Rear Brakes, 18" x 8" Fronts/20" x 10" Rears, Ordered: 1.26.17, Arrived: 3.29.17, First Start: 7.2.18, Go Cart: 11.4.18

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    TY, I wanted to have max vertical height. We have truss manufacturers that are required to do all that work, its a requirement in Canada.

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    Oh, to have that much space! That's a great way to start. Following along..
    Aerodynamics are for those who can't build engines - Enzo Ferrari

    FFR33 coupe #997, ordered 2/20/17, delivered 4/15/17, build thread
    Planned: 350SBC, TKO600, hardtop, no fenders/hood, 32 grill, 3 link, GT500 wheels

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoadRacer View Post
    Oh, to have that much space! That's a great way to start. Following along..
    Mind you its filling up really quickly as most of you builders already know!!!

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    What a great work space!! Very nice job on the garage!

    Good luck as you start your build. Like some others have already said, black and copper will look pretty cool.

    I know it will be fun building with your son. I hope you get to enjoy each other's company a great deal while you put her together!

    Regards,

    Steve

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by WIS89 View Post
    What a great work space!! Very nice job on the garage!

    Good luck as you start your build. Like some others have already said, black and copper will look pretty cool.

    I know it will be fun building with your son. I hope you get to enjoy each other's company a great deal while you put her together!

    Regards,

    Steve
    Hey Steve, thanks! We are looking forward to this a lot. I think variations of clean copper, burnt copper in key areas will really make it pop. Steampunk but a light version, at least for this one!!

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    We got started, placed the frame in its location for the next little while and set it up on jack stands for now. My son and I got the TV and stereo system in and were ready to go!20171105_151914.jpg20171105_151925.jpg20171105_151932.jpg20171105_151946.jpg

  12. #12

    Ol Skool

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    Annealed copper sheet over the firewall aluminum would look cool. Not sure if I would try counter sunk rivets in the aluminum and then some solid copper rivets or use common fasteners like button heads for both. I thought about it on mine, but with the copperish gold valve covers I wanted it all becomes one copper blob. Similar to using black wrinkle and then wondering why it doesn't show in the pictures. Steampunk makes me think of solid copper rivets hammered in the sheet. A lot of opportunity. Reddish alloy, green patina, dark, polished, etc. You can use some cool etchant tricks also. maybe a little silver or nickel overlay. You may be able to electroplate the aluminum?? I haven't looked at that. Somebody has done extensive copper on a 33. maybe you have seen that one for inspiration. It wouldn't be that hard to make a good size tank and do it in your garage. Well maybe not your brand new nice garage. Stuff turns magically green all around you when playing with chemicals and copper...

  13. #13
    Senior Member CVOBill's Avatar
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    Congrats on the new build!
    CVOBill

    Hot Rod #304 purchased 5/28/2017 Unassembled from original owner. Titled and plated 8/24/2017 Coyote, TKO, 3-Link, Heat, A/C, Electric Power Steering, Convertible top
    MK2 #???? Delivered 11/2002, Finished and Titled 6/2003
    5.0, T-5, 4-Link, Sold 3/2005

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    Quote Originally Posted by erlihemi View Post
    Annealed copper sheet over the firewall aluminum would look cool. Not sure if I would try counter sunk rivets in the aluminum and then some solid copper rivets or use common fasteners like button heads for both. I thought about it on mine, but with the copperish gold valve covers I wanted it all becomes one copper blob. Similar to using black wrinkle and then wondering why it doesn't show in the pictures. Steampunk makes me think of solid copper rivets hammered in the sheet. A lot of opportunity. Reddish alloy, green patina, dark, polished, etc. You can use some cool etchant tricks also. maybe a little silver or nickel overlay. You may be able to electroplate the aluminum?? I haven't looked at that. Somebody has done extensive copper on a 33. maybe you have seen that one for inspiration. It wouldn't be that hard to make a good size tank and do it in your garage. Well maybe not your brand new nice garage. Stuff turns magically green all around you when playing with chemicals and copper...
    Excellent Idea! I was looking to see how I could do something with that aluminum back wall, I actually have zinc rich primer and was going to possibly paint it with VHT Burnt Copper like the bare metal parts and some of the "exposed" black powder coated steel. I was on the wall because i did not want to overwhelm the look with copper. The other option is to stud on a sheet of brass or bronze for a color and finish effect. I had found copper rivets that would need to be peaned in place with a hammer, but again a lot of work to get a decent finish. Options are still open, need to get there first then decide. All input is deeply appreciated as this rolls out.

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    Senior Member TDSapp's Avatar
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    AJT,

    Here is a link to a story in Hot Rod about a "Steampunk" FFR Hot Rod.


    http://www.hotrod.com/articles/1933-...ig-block-ford/


    This is probably the one that Erlihemi was talking about.




    Also in photo #1 in your last post is that you or your son in the photo?
    Tim Sapp
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    33 Hot Rod
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  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by TDSapp View Post
    AJT,
    Here is a link to a story in Hot Rod about a "Steampunk" FFR Hot Rod.
    http://www.hotrod.com/articles/1933-...ig-block-ford/
    This is probably the one that Erlihemi was talking about.
    Also in photo #1 in your last post is that you or your son in the photo?
    Hey Tim, I knew of that build, it gave me a lot to look at for my build.
    Yup that's my son in the picture, he had just gotten his hair cut off a little over a week ago as part of a campaign to support cancer research that the garage where he works (Hyundai Dealership) was putting on. He at least now knows how it will feel when he gets my age!!

  17. #17
    Senior Member TDSapp's Avatar
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    AJT,

    Have you decided on the power train yet? Or at least have a direction that you are thinking about?
    Tim Sapp
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    Build Blog: http://hotrod.sapp-family.com/blog/

    33 Hot Rod
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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by TDSapp View Post
    AJT,

    Have you decided on the power train yet? Or at least have a direction that you are thinking about?
    I have a 5L Coyote Engine with a Tremek TKO600 tranny. The engine actually came out of a 2013 Ford F150, I have had it for a couple years now. I am building a motor start stand (i have all the parts) and will be getting it mounted and hooked up in parallel as I want to hear the heartbeat before it gets transplanted into the frame. Its been sitting in the garage in my house since i had it giving the crank a partial turn every so often, all the liquids have been removed.
    20150910_205059 - Engine View 1.jpg20150910_205114.jpg20150910_205124.jpg
    Last edited by AJT '33; 11-07-2017 at 02:42 PM.

  19. #19
    Senior Member TDSapp's Avatar
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    Nice... Sounds like you have a great motor to go in it.


    Tim
    Tim Sapp
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    33 Hot Rod
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  20. #20

    Ol Skool

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    There are some nice powder coats in copper also. The problem with powder coat is I can never get it to match the similar shade in paint. I have used VHT and I am happy with it. I use one of the VHT satin golds for my Desoto stuff and its sorta copperish. Of course if you mix real copper work with some powder coat and some paint you need to be aware of finish. I use satin clear when I cheat on different finishes. Gloss will amplify any differences in shade. With some test samples and a little time you could really do a lot with it though. Copper is a little pricey, but, it would be so cool to show the craftsmanship.

    Enjoy!

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by erlihemi View Post
    There are some nice powder coats in copper also. The problem with powder coat is I can never get it to match the similar shade in paint. I have used VHT and I am happy with it. I use one of the VHT satin golds for my Desoto stuff and its sorta copperish. Of course if you mix real copper work with some powder coat and some paint you need to be aware of finish. I use satin clear when I cheat on different finishes. Gloss will amplify any differences in shade. With some test samples and a little time you could really do a lot with it though. Copper is a little pricey, but, it would be so cool to show the craftsmanship.

    Enjoy!
    I have looked into powder coating however I am not sure of the colors and then the ability to touch up. As I am not afraid of painting cars or their components (have painted a couple cars and hydroplane racing boats already in my life) I don't think it gives me much of an advantage to powder coat versus painting, plus I don't have to beg someone to do the work, I just go ahead and get it done. Regardless all this input is great as "Johnny 5" would say!!!

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    OK, Setting up and finally able to see some progress in the fact that we are now ready to start to add "color" to the parts that are raw and some that are already powder coated black. Still on the fence if I should recoat the rear control arms Burnt Copper like the front arms since they are already powder coated black. Any opinions on this?? I have my tables setup and will get the other side of my lift setup for the painting, have a few questions for the veterans
    1) Has anyone painted over the powder coating and if so what was the prep to the surface of the powder coat?
    2) For the brake calipers, they're going to be Burnt Copper, other than a real good scrub down with the proper solvents, any recommendations for surface prep beyond that? I don't think I want to sand blast as I have an etching primer for the VHT paint, opinions?
    3) Raw steel parts with the pinions already mounted, how did you prep and clean the area around the boot? Once cleaned any special tapes to prevent any paint or sandblast from getting in/under the boot?

    Please ping in as this will be my mission over the next couple weeks, then we start the true assembly of the toy.

    20171123_201358.jpg20171123_203743.jpg20171123_203746.jpg20171123_203753.jpg20171123_203755.jpg

  23. #23
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    I painted over the powder coated arms. Powder coat makes for a very good base. Wet sand and/or scuff pad 400-600 wet. Sealer, base , clear. I use HoK products.



    Olli

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    Quote Originally Posted by Olli View Post
    I painted over the powder coated arms. Powder coat makes for a very good base. Wet sand and/or scuff pad 400-600 wet. Sealer, base , clear. I use HoK products.

    Olli
    Excellent!! That is what we were thinking as well. TY!

  25. #25
    Senior Member JOP33's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AJT '33 View Post
    OK, Setting up and finally able to see some progress in the fact that we are now ready to start to add "color" to the parts that are raw and some that are already powder coated black. Still on the fence if I should recoat the rear control arms Burnt Copper like the front arms since they are already powder coated black. Any opinions on this?? I have my tables setup and will get the other side of my lift setup for the painting, have a few questions for the veterans
    1) Has anyone painted over the powder coating and if so what was the prep to the surface of the powder coat?
    2) For the brake calipers, they're going to be Burnt Copper, other than a real good scrub down with the proper solvents, any recommendations for surface prep beyond that? I don't think I want to sand blast as I have an etching primer for the VHT paint, opinions?
    3) Raw steel parts with the pinions already mounted, how did you prep and clean the area around the boot? Once cleaned any special tapes to prevent any paint or sandblast from getting in/under the boot?

    Please ping in as this will be my mission over the next couple weeks, then we start the true assembly of the toy.

    20171123_201358.jpg20171123_203743.jpg20171123_203746.jpg20171123_203753.jpg20171123_203755.jpg
    A high temp tape is usually required for powder coating. If you are using someone to powder ask them to supply or just let them do it. We usually use several layers of duct tape to protect from blasting.
    33' Hot Rod Coupe/Roadster, Fenderless (Maybe), Ford 302, 350hp, EFI, AOD, 4-Link, Double Adjustable Koni Coilovers, Split Rear Exhaust, Electric Power Steering, AC/Heat/Defrost, Moser 8.8"-3.55, Willwood Front/Rear Brakes, 18" x 8" Fronts/20" x 10" Rears, Ordered: 1.26.17, Arrived: 3.29.17, First Start: 7.2.18, Go Cart: 11.4.18

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    Well this weekend was big, paint parts sorted out and did a test paint on of the control arms to see if the burnt copper color is what I was envisioning. At first glance the color seems to be too orange, I will need to add a coat of clear to see how it comes out, hopefully it darkens a bot and the shine of the clear helps in making the pearl like finish pop out! Not the greatest pics, need to focus my phone better.

    20171124_215536.jpg20171124_215543.jpg

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    Well after a little back and forth we decided that we were not happy with the initial look of the painted parts, they were not copper colored and too orangey. So I went to my paint supplier and chose two new colors that I felt would fit the bill.

    The first, a lighter copper looked like a mildly aged/oxidized copper finish, started to paint the next piece but it bugged me that it was too light
    20171130_212714.jpg

    After it sitting there it started bugging me so I tried the darker color which I was going to use as an accent color and ended up using it as a base as it gave a better darker aged copper color. its hard to take a good picture but it fits MUCH better
    20171203_202100.jpg

    One thing I was very impressed with is these water based colors, having never use water based paint for a base color I was actually impressed how little paint you needed to lay down to achieve a consistent color base. the top coat clear can be a solvent or water base, As I understand from my supplier the solvent base gives a more brilliant shine without color sanding. The other great thing is my paint supplier can put the paint in an aerosol can for me which makes painting these small parts MUCH easier! Now to get all the control arms and calipers etc... painted to color so my son can start assembling!

  28. #28
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    Looking good!

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    After it sitting there it started bugging me so I tried the darker color which I was going to use as an accent color and ended up using it as a base as it gave a better darker aged copper color. [/QUOTE]

    I agree with your choice - the darker copper color looks great!

  30. #30
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    Hey Everyone, my 33 has a donor engine coming from a 2013 Ford F150. I have been told that I need to change the oil pan and the timing chain cover to one used from a 2011-2014 Mustang GT. I have no issues with the oil pan however when I look at the timing cover, I am not really sure why I would need to change what I have? I will have no AC (living in Canada we need heat more than we need cold air ) and the alternator is going to be relocated so again I am not sure why I would need the pulley the GT cover has. I have been through the blogs and found one person who made a custom bracket so they did not change the cover (I have requested a pic) however is there anyone else out there in the FFR33 world that has experience with this? All your help is appreciated!!
    Cover from Mustang GT, notice the bump with the thread for a pulley
    2011-2014 Musting timing cover with ac tensioner.jpg
    Picture of my engine front, notice no bump with idler thread.
    20150910_205114.jpg

  31. #31
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    So the build itself is not advancing quickly as I am in the midst of painting various parts such as all the control arms, spindles, knuckles, differential etc... I may be going overboard for a personal build however I think that if we are going to build something that is "custom and our own" and doing it ALL ourselves (my son and I and of course my wife!) then going that extra length to make it sparkle is a big deal in my eyes. The down side of it all is its driving my son nuts as he has to wait for me to get all the prep and paint done and allow the finish to cure properly before we go ahead and re-assemble the control arms and other fittings (as a mechanic he wants to get into this as soon as possible!!) I think that if all goes well i will have all the required components to be painted, at this point, on the steering and drive train completed by Christmas (my gift to myself!! ). Following are a few pictures of the stuff i have been painting and prepping:
    20171211_200820.jpg20171211_200846.jpg20171211_200854.jpg20171204_194907.jpg20171211_200841.jpg20171211_204442.jpg

    One thing I was very impressed with was the water based paints I am using from Dupont, its the CROMAX PRO WBC (http://products.axaltacs.com/dcat/us...oBasecoat.html), my local supplier suggested it to me as they can put it in a spray can for me (SprayMax system) which makes it A LOT EASIER to apply and alleviate all that paint gun prep work. I am truly amazed at the results, with this system I can prime with a self etching primer, lightly smooth the straight surfaces, clean and apply the CROMAX base coat within an hour. I then wait 20-60 minutes to allow the base coat, which is water based, set completely. Once dry I can right away go ahead and apply the first clear coat (using the SpraMax systemhttp://www.spraymax.com/en/products/product/clear-coats-and-spot-blender/1k-clear-coat/), wait 30 minutes for it to flash and set, then get a second coat on, I have found if I let the second coat set overnight and come back the next evening (as I'm doing this all at night after work, yup I have a real job as well) and apply the third and final coat i get the best shine with no color sanding or buffing. The nice thing about this system is that its made for professionals and the cure time is no more than 24-48hrs at a room temp of 65F minimum then it can be handled without issue (I still take great care regardless). I do let it cure however for a week regardless, I'm in no rush even if I can have it setup faster with an infrared heater. Again, the spray cans with these professional tips spray out EXACTLY like a spray gun, its very surprising and impressive.

    That's where I sit as of now, lots of assembly will be happening and I will be able to share some of the progress during the holidays or just thereafter. Have a great Christmas and prosperous Happy New Year Everyone!!!

  32. #32
    Senior Member CVOBill's Avatar
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    The parts are looking great, I like the idea of the paint in a spray can.
    CVOBill

    Hot Rod #304 purchased 5/28/2017 Unassembled from original owner. Titled and plated 8/24/2017 Coyote, TKO, 3-Link, Heat, A/C, Electric Power Steering, Convertible top
    MK2 #???? Delivered 11/2002, Finished and Titled 6/2003
    5.0, T-5, 4-Link, Sold 3/2005

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by CVOBill View Post
    The parts are looking great, I like the idea of the paint in a spray can.
    I was skeptical at first however since they are filling the cans with the same paint as you would spray normally its made life a heck of a lot easier while still allowing you to paint like a pro!
    20171203_202459_resized.jpg20171203_202435.jpg20171203_202415_resized.jpg

  34. #34
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    So some more forward movement on the Assy of the front end. A few items to note, we needed to spread apart the tabs holding the control arms, they were too tight due to the powder coating (used the threaded rod and double nuts with washers technique someone suggested, work amazing!). As well when we placed the upper control arm the spread between the upper bushing of the arm were close to 1/8"-3/16" less than the gap between the tabs on the frame, the same was necessary for the lowers as well. I believe FFR needs to consider the gap with powder coating and tabs on the frame to allow for the powder coat thickness and recenter the tabs relative to the arms.
    20171214_205354_resized.jpg20171214_205347_resized.jpg20171214_195017_resized.jpg

    As well, we fought a bit with our spindle in getting the nut on and torquing it to 100ft-lbs. there is just enough gap to get a 1/2" torque wrench with a socket in the gap. We also needed to use a pipe slipped over the shaft of the spindle to hold the spindle so my son could properly get the right torque. The next challenge will be getting the top nut on and figuring how to torque that nut! Any suggestions?
    20171214_213149.jpg

    We should have all the front end arms and brakes on by the weekend unless i decide to paint a few more parts that i currently did not want to do.

  35. #35
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    Many people don't worry about torquing the castle nuts, they often need backing off a touch anyway to put the pin in. Mine were put on "tight" without a torque wrench.
    Aerodynamics are for those who can't build engines - Enzo Ferrari

    FFR33 coupe #997, ordered 2/20/17, delivered 4/15/17, build thread
    Planned: 350SBC, TKO600, hardtop, no fenders/hood, 32 grill, 3 link, GT500 wheels

  36. #36
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    OK, so my son and i have most of the front suspension in and moved on to the rear end. We took the upper control arm and mocked it up in place and we have a BIG PROBLEM, either the tabs on the frame have been installed in the worng location OR the fabricated arm that we received is the wrong one, see the following pictures:
    20171216_152941.jpg20171216_153028.jpg20171216_150615.jpg20171216_150535.jpg20171216_150547.jpg
    Has anyone had this hap[pen to you on the new IRS suspension?? I have an email out to Dan at FFR but I was wondering if this is a frame error or not so if someone can take a look at theirs and take a measurement like we have in the pictures and tell me what they have? I am hoping that the arm has been misfabricated and its not a frame screw up and they can send me a new arm, however if its the frame then i am not sure what will happen. Any and all help is appreciated!!!

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by AJT '33 View Post
    OK, so my son and i have most of the front suspension in and moved on to the rear end. We took the upper control arm and mocked it up in place and we have a BIG PROBLEM, either the tabs on the frame have been installed in the worng location OR the fabricated arm that we received is the wrong one, see the following pictures:
    20171216_152941.jpg20171216_153028.jpg20171216_150615.jpg20171216_150535.jpg20171216_150547.jpg
    Has anyone had this hap[pen to you on the new IRS suspension?? I have an email out to Dan at FFR but I was wondering if this is a frame error or not so if someone can take a look at theirs and take a measurement like we have in the pictures and tell me what they have? I am hoping that the arm has been misfabricated and its not a frame screw up and they can send me a new arm, however if its the frame then i am not sure what will happen. Any and all help is appreciated!!!

    Mystery solved, FFR sent a pair of Cobra rear upper control arms with my kit!! OOPS! They have a new pair being shipped today to me. Lesson learned... make sure you dry fit critical components BEFORE painting them!
    Last edited by AJT '33; 12-18-2017 at 02:09 PM.

  38. #38
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    You know how they will look with your paint!

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by AJT '33 View Post
    Mystery solved, FFR sent a pair of Cobra rear upper control arms with my kit!! OOPS! They have a new pair being shipped today to me. Lesson learned... make sure you dry fit critical components BEFORE painting them!
    Wow, good result! Well, good-ish I suppose. Yes, you should have test-fitted them, but that doesn't make it any less annoying

    I was dreading hearing that the tabs were in the wrong place..
    Aerodynamics are for those who can't build engines - Enzo Ferrari

    FFR33 coupe #997, ordered 2/20/17, delivered 4/15/17, build thread
    Planned: 350SBC, TKO600, hardtop, no fenders/hood, 32 grill, 3 link, GT500 wheels

  40. #40
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    OK, so I may be getting ahead of myself here as I am trying to understand what is out there when it comes to cabin/defrosting heaters. I have seen a lot of setups where everyone is putting in the traditional heaters with AC integrated. However as i am in the Great White North and would rarely need AC as i would either have the hard top on for show or go naked with the top off which AC would do nothing for me. What i was wondering is if there is an inexpensive simple, small, heater I can throw some hot air down at our feet and a pair of vents for the windshield defrost? Are there options out there for all electric heat that don't take up too much under dash space as well? Is there something i can tear out of a scrapped vehicle that i can use as a heater that may be out there rather than an after market new one?

    Looking to pre-plan here so anyone's input based on experience and practicality is deeply appreciated. TY!!!

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