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Thread: John’s Mk4 Build Thread - Winter punch list

  1. #1
    Senior Member John Ibele's Avatar
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    John’s Mk4 Build Thread - Winter punch list - wipers

    Latest post is ...


    >>> HERE <<<


    Well, this isn't going to be a typical build thread, because:

    • this isn't a new kit, and
    • its not the beginning of the build


    but, other than that, it should be awesome.

    It still makes sense to me to keep all my build-posts in one thread, for a couple of reasons. First, I realize how much I enjoy going through other's build threads, not just skilled & repeat builders, but also those who are tackling this for the first time. I've learned just as much just by reading about the experiences of other first time builders as from reading the build threads of seasoned ones. Second, although folks on this forum are always a very helpful bunch, I have to think its more satisfying to answer the questions of someone who's shared a bit more of their journey than just their questions. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with that - I've been doing it so far - so maybe I just decided this is what suits me best. Finally, when you post your build status and include a few pictures, experienced folks will chime in with things to think about that you hadn’t thought of, which is really helpful. As a first-time builder and not exactly a car guy, this is really reassuring.

    So, I’m not sure I can add anything brilliant here, but maybe I can at least add another example of someone with the right desire and persistence delivering an end result they can be proud of.

    A quick thanks to the many folks who share their experiences on this site. There's a wealth of knowledge that's freely shared here, and there's absolutely no doubt that this has increased the build quality and the value of these cars tremendously. Bob was extremely helpful on the other forum with my early questions and helped me refine my thoughts about the build config. Paul has been a huge help with his great build threads and invaluable advice. Jeff has a ton of practical advice and top-notch build demonstration on both sites. John, Scott and Carl all have great threads on first time builds which have been very helpful and inspirational. Vendors have been very generous with time and advice. Thanks a bunch to anyone who shares information here.

    This is a MK4 complete kit with IRS which was delivered in (yes, that's right...) August, 2012. I had to get rid of this, which I should have done before I got the car. That was done in 2013, and my Dad (and chief builder back in the 1970s) got to see it fully restored and sailing, which was cool. Then...I realized that a build in Minnesota isn't going to get done without heat in the garage, so I insulated, dry-walled, painted the garage. Doing the DIY route along with a busy job and finishing raising kids took some time. I did get to go to build school with my boys before they went off to college somewhere in there, which was a blast.

    Now the kids are off on their own, the wife and I get all the quality time we want, so it’s a great time to crank up the thermostat and get back to work on the car. There’s nothing better on a below-zero Saturday than taking the short walk through the snow in the back yard, coffee mug in hand, and stepping into a warm garage.

    Okay, getting closer to car and build stuff.

    Basic approach to the build is for a well-mannered street vehicle which is suited for cruising and maybe a bit of autocross now and then. The IRS will be hooked up to a small block and T-5 up front. The only option I regret not adding to the complete kit is … cutouts. So, I'll have to do this myself when I get to the body, which isn't a disaster, just work I realize I should have left to Factory Five, particularly considering what they charge. Quite a deal. No other real regrets with what I ordered, so not so bad.

    I'll go through build status in a second post.

    Cheers,

    -- John
    Last edited by John Ibele; 03-25-2024 at 08:49 PM.
    MK4 #7838: IRS 3.55 TrueTrac T5z Dart 347
    The drawing is from ~7th grade, mid-1970s
    Meandering, leisurely build thread is here

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  3. #2
    Senior Member John Ibele's Avatar
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    Status of the build:

    Front suspension and brakes are on, but I will install the steering rack after I get to the pedal box and get the steering column in, so I'll include photos of the front later.

    Pumpkin is in, and I took quite a bit of time with this. I found an aluminum housing in a yard in GA, and paid as much in shipping as I did for the pumpkin to get it to MN ($60, I think). Ordered new guts from Mike Forte, who was very helpful walking through details. He strongly suggested I have him put it together; I didn't listen. In a demonstration of his customer relations skills, he quickly corrected course and said, "okay, that sounds like fun…". So I was off and running.

    ...and something like 30 shop hours later, I was done. And very adept at putting the rear end together and taking it apart. And adept at taking the pinion gear with ruined bearing to the local transmission shop so they could remove it and put on a new one. The major problem (just after my total lack of knowledge and ability) was that the rules for adjusting to get the right gear pattern changed when Ford moved from face milling to hobbed milling (or vice versa…it’s been awhile). So I was chasing my tail despite a detailed video, lots of advice from others, until I got the right book to straighten me out. By that time I could see gear patterns on the inside of my eyelids, spent time lying in bed thinking about gear patterns, thought about gear patterns at work, and so on. Finally got a gear pattern I was happy with. I’m glad I took this on, but only when I was done if you know what I mean. Two small pix that probably only look pretty to me:



    I also went to a bone yard to harvest the rear spindles, which was worth it … everybody should see the view from a bone yard when its 40F and drizzling at least once. Had the help of my oldest boy and we had fun. I had the spindles refurbished and hubs drilled by Stu, and then installed poly bushings myself. Not necessarily something I would do again, but worth it to do once, and I did save some $$ I can spend elsewhere.

    I did the rear alignment using
    Richard’s advice (post #5) in the other forum, along with details from Bob (post #4) on how to set up the car at ride height if you don’t have a level garage floor, which I don’t. So, I…


    • Bought a laser level from the local HD and mounted it on my minicamera tripod, and set the horizontal plane just under the frame of the car.
    • Adjusted the frame by shimming with floor tiles under my floorjacks until it was level.
    • Set the rear hubs to desired ride height relative to the frame, based on anticipated tire diameter, just propped up with scrap wood under the hub.
    • Found the center of the frame in front and back, and dropped weighted fishing line from those front and rear center points.
    • Aligned the laser level so the vertical plane intercepted the fishing line in front and rear, giving me a datum plane down the center of the car.
    • Tightened down the disks and clamped 4’ straight edges to each disk.
    • Used Richard’s starting point for alignment, and dialed in camber using a magnetic-mounted caster / camber gage on the disks, and the right offsets on the 4’ straight edges to get desired toe-in.
    • I tried to do exactly the same number of turns on the rod ends from side to side from a given starting point, just to keep things even, and hopefully be closer to finished when I checked things on the ‘second’ side. Worked out pretty well.
    • Double-checked overall hub-to-hub width to make sure that was dialed in properly. A little back-and-forth adjustment required here, but not much.


    I had help from my youngest before he went back to school last fall to get this done, good quality time and very satisfying work. I started by thinking I would take the car to a shop to get the alignment done because I didn’t know what I was doing, but after the right amount of reading and practicing, got to the point where I had confidence I could resolve a ½ turn in the rod ends and see it in the measurements. Biggest practical advice I got was to tape the washers together to make one temporarily-solid spacer before trying to get them aligned to bang the bolt through. That’s a major reduction in the @#$% factor associated with this process.

    Anyway, let me know if it seems like there’s anything I missed.
    Last edited by John Ibele; 01-23-2018 at 04:39 AM.
    MK4 #7838: IRS 3.55 TrueTrac T5z Dart 347
    The drawing is from ~7th grade, mid-1970s
    Meandering, leisurely build thread is here

  4. #3
    Senior Member John Ibele's Avatar
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    Next I worked on mounting the cobra brakes (standard offering when I got the complete kit). It took me some time to figure out how the e-brake cable was going to get to the right place, I bought two button-head cap screws for one location on the adapter brackets to buy some more room for routing. I ground down the part of the caliper casting a bit where the cable comes in so I could put a ½” retainer ring on to hold the cable housing. I like John’s approach of using an Adel clamp on the inside of rear spindle bolt to hold the cable away from the ½ axle as it goes down and away from the brake, and will do this as I button things up. I’ll add a shot when I’ve got that bolted down (all ready to go but I’m traveling for the next two weeks…).

    I installed the VPM rear sway bar. This is perhaps a curious purchase since the car doesn’t have any handling problems until its actually rolling, and most of the time not even then (that’s for you, Jeff…). But, with the anticipation of doing some autocross and the difficulty of adding anything after the build, I ordered it early on. And since I had it ordered, its going on.

    Very nice kit which went on exactly the way Craig outlined in the instructions. Cleaned the bare parts well and coated with Rustoleum primer and black high performance enamel, which is a good match for the black PC frame. I had painted the entire bar but the clamps fit tight enough to scrub off the paint, so I sanded the paint back off the ends of the bars where the clamp will go, and set the bar to the loosest setting for now, which is what I’ll do with the front bar when I get it installed. I’m assuming that’s the way to stay out of trouble until I really know what I’m doing with adjustments, but let me know if I’m not thinking about this right.

    So, one final shot to show where I am right now: rear end is buttoned up, with the exception of putting the shocks back on and the brakes on. I have aluminum spacers for the shocks which keep me out of trouble on full travel up / down, but I’ll check again once everything is buttoned up for good.



    And, a final question before I move on. I didn’t find good documentation of the torque values required for the bolts connecting control arms to frame, or control arms to spindles, for the IRS. The control arms to frame I think are more straightforward, and I ended up with 100ish ft*lb for those. I initially went with a similar torque value when tightening spindle bolts, but did this with one spot where I should have also stuffed in a fender washer as a spacer, and ended up bending the end of the LCA where the bolt sits. (Why does a supposedly handy guy do this?? Sure sign of the wrong ratio of reading vs. wrench-turning … straightened it out with a threaded rod and couple of nuts / washers … all good now.)

    For the spindle connections, I thought maybe I was overthinking this, until I realized you probably can’t overthink a safety-related torque value. I called FFR and got the answer that with both the inboard and outboard bolts you just tighten to take any slack out of the assembly, but don’t go to the point where the poly bushings are getting ground up, for example. Since there are nyloc nuts on every bolt here, presumably we’re counting on the nylon rather than the elastic stretching of the bolt to hold the nut in place, so torque matters less.

    But…I’m still attached to the rated torque values, at least for the control arm to frame connection. And even with the poly bushings, there’s a sleeve around the bolt against which you can tighten, and not squeeze the @#$ out of the bushing as long as you have the right spacing at the control arm end. Like I said, thinking too much.

    I’ll stick with 100ish on the inboard bolts and ‘snug but not more’ for the spindle bolts unless I hear different.

    That’s it, I won’t write a book like this every post, next time will be fewer words and more pix. Looking forward to moving up to the pedal box. Based on what I’ve read, I ordered Russ’s throttle pedal, and plan to do a mechanical throttle connection for kicks. Should be fun. Back at it in early Feb when I’m done traveling.
    Last edited by John Ibele; 01-23-2018 at 04:38 AM.
    MK4 #7838: IRS 3.55 TrueTrac T5z Dart 347
    The drawing is from ~7th grade, mid-1970s
    Meandering, leisurely build thread is here

  5. #4
    Senior Member Yama-Bro's Avatar
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    Looks good. Welcome to the fun. It sounds like your kids are older, so who drew your avatar?
    Started dreaming of a Cobra around 1987
    Purchased Complete Kit 6/9/2017, Delivered 9/4/2017, Rolling Chassis 3/30/2018, Engine Dyno'ed 3/4/2022, Engine installed 8/27/2022
    Click here for my build thread
    Serial #9158
    Design Engineer at BluePrint Engines

  6. #5
    Senior Member John Ibele's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yama-Bro View Post
    Looks good. Welcome to the fun. It sounds like your kids are older, so who drew your avatar?
    Yeah, I thought someone might ask that. Clearing out my folks' house a few years ago (both 93 and still kicking now), I found out my mother saved everything, including a 7th grade notebook of mine with this sketch in it. Remarkably like the front of a Cobra, although I probably didn't know the specific car back then. But the sketch was certainly my attempt to capture the coolest thing on wheels at the time, whatever it was. That would put the sketch at about 1974 or so ... who knows, maybe I actually saw a real one along with all those Austin Healy 3000's, XKE's and MGA's that kept my head spinning.

    I have the sketch taped up in the garage, figured it would make a good avatar. Just another example of how our attachment to these cars goes a long way back!
    Last edited by John Ibele; 01-23-2018 at 10:15 AM.
    MK4 #7838: IRS 3.55 TrueTrac T5z Dart 347
    The drawing is from ~7th grade, mid-1970s
    Meandering, leisurely build thread is here

  7. #6
    Senior Member Yama-Bro's Avatar
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    Cool story with your drawing. I was expecting it to be grandkids or something.
    Started dreaming of a Cobra around 1987
    Purchased Complete Kit 6/9/2017, Delivered 9/4/2017, Rolling Chassis 3/30/2018, Engine Dyno'ed 3/4/2022, Engine installed 8/27/2022
    Click here for my build thread
    Serial #9158
    Design Engineer at BluePrint Engines

  8. #7
    Senior Member John Ibele's Avatar
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    When I looked at the shims used in rear IRS alignment a few days ago, I wasn’t comfortable with the amount of corrosion I saw on the shims after just sitting in the garage for 9 months since alignment. I figured I would replace with stainless shims as a precaution. And, I could order Mark’s rod end seals, unless that’s just overkill for the Midwest climate.

    The shim part # I found in a search was McMaster 94773A778, which made sense when I looked it up (I’m traveling at the moment or I’d just go out to the car and measure).

    A couple things:

    Anyone have a notion of how many shims are needed for the whole thing? Doesn’t need to be precise since they come in packs of 10. Would love to order them so they’re waiting for me when I get back to the car.

    Any need to to get thinner shims? I can’t say that appeared to be needed when I did the alignment with the kit- supplied shims.
    MK4 #7838: IRS 3.55 TrueTrac T5z Dart 347
    The drawing is from ~7th grade, mid-1970s
    Meandering, leisurely build thread is here

  9. #8
    Senior Member John Ibele's Avatar
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    And, with some final adjustments, the rear end is buttoned up. I had questions about the vent in the IRS cover, which didn't look right but I just didn't give it much thought. Fortunately, my questions about how to replace it got answered here. 30 seconds and an EZ Out backed out my broken plastic vent without sending anything down the hole in the cover, which was what I was hoping for.

    Turns out the part Mike Forte sent me was not an exact replacement after all. What I got was an aluminum part with a hose barb fitting - but a quick check verified I would have a 0.010" interference fit with that part, which seemed close enough to try banging in. I used a piece of aluminum spacer left over from getting my rear shocks mounted in the right position to avoid interference throughout travel - a few bangs with a hammer and the vent was in:



    Rear IRS looks like this, only thing left to do is tighten up bolts holding the IRS center section, which I figured I would wait on until I was getting the drive shaft in place. And, get some 3/8" hose for the barb fitting, clamp it to the frame above the IRS and put the vent filter on the other end.



    And, a few photos of the brakes all set up. I did get the placement of the e-brake cables figured out and routed properly, which took a bit of material removal off the casting, so I could get 1/2" retainer rings on the end of the cable housings. The cables do need to go down first, then up through the lower control arms before they go over the pumpkin. And Adele clamp will hold them next to the control arm and away from the 1/2 axles.

    Right Rear:



    Left Rear:



    Do let me know if you see anything wrong or anything that could save me time or headache later ... one of the big reasons for a first-time builder to post pictures.

    And with that, on to the pedal box, which is now underway and seems completely straightforward so far.
    Last edited by John Ibele; 03-14-2018 at 08:35 AM.
    MK4 #7838: IRS 3.55 TrueTrac T5z Dart 347
    The drawing is from ~7th grade, mid-1970s
    Meandering, leisurely build thread is here

  10. #9
    Senior Member John Ibele's Avatar
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    I've been doing the usual two steps forward, three steps back to make sure I get the most out of the building experience.

    With my summer 2012-vintage complete kit I have the Wilwood pedal box with the forged pedals, but with the offset clutch quadrant. Took me a few hours of mockup time to realize the new shaft was slightly too short to fit the clip on the end of the shaft on reassembly, and the quadrant rubbed against the side of the steel bracket...then cut off the press-in stud too short, dang ... then after finding a source for that part, did some more checking and found the problem that so many had found with the offset quadrant...

    So much history to go through with you've gotten behind with your build. Think I'm caught up now, with searches and reading on both forums. But, I have to figure out what pieces I can / can't use as I move forward. I have a message into F5 to see if they (still?) have a conversion kit available, or ever did, to get the quadrant in line with the clutch pedal.

    My front DS panel is not even on yet, so that's good, and should make any mods up there fairly straightforward. I'm suspecting I can use my forged pedal assembly with the steel plates that form the clutch quadrant, but don't yet have that confirmed. Ditto for the steel bracket that the pedal assembly bolts to. Regardless, F5 should be able to tell me what can be reused, and what needs to be ordered new.

    So, more questions than answers at this point, but getting there.
    MK4 #7838: IRS 3.55 TrueTrac T5z Dart 347
    The drawing is from ~7th grade, mid-1970s
    Meandering, leisurely build thread is here

  11. #10
    Senior Member John Ibele's Avatar
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    Okay, that wasn't too bad.

    I posted earlier (2012 Kit - Clutch Pedal Options) that my older kit came with the offset clutch quadrant, which did not work well with the Wilwood pedal box included in the MK4. The extended bushing that held the clutch quadrant was not properly supported, and on some roadsters the quadrant would eventually push off the retainer ring holding the quadrant on the bushing, allowing the clutch quadrant to slip off.

    The new design looked good to me, as long as I could make the changes to the frame to change the placement of the firewall adjuster for the cable housing. FFR's recommendation was that I not do this mod at all, but I realize that they are not going to recommend changes that go off the map, so to speak. That's on the owner. I'm being reasonably cautious as a first-time builder, but this seemed within my capabilities.

    I got replies from Mike Everson and John (phileas_fogg) to confirm my direction, along with a few calls to Mike Forte. General order of business was to:
    • order the newer, non-offset clutch quadrant which sits on top of the clutch pedal
    • order the Wilwood 260-6087 master cylinder (5/8" instead of 3/4"), which gets you closer to balancing the front and rear brakes, another update from the older kit.
    • Make the frame mods for the clutch pedal interference. Lots in both forums on this, pick from the choices available:
      • live with it as is (FFR's official recommendation, which almost no one does, as far as I can tell)
      • cut a bit off the pedal (they're stout, and I'm sure this can be done, but it gives me the shivers)
      • cut a notch out of the frame, and use the notch as stop for the clutch pedal
      • cut out the interfering part of the frame, and butt joint a sister patch outboard of the cutout section. Seems like most do this, and it worked fine for me.

    • Move the location of the firewall cable adjuster to match the new clutch quadrant position.
      • This required dry-fitting the assembly multiple times to get the alignment right.
      • On first assembly I noticed the clutch quadrant was assembled so that the clutch cable end was not lined up with the relief hole in the forged frame. Fortunately the quadrant plates are just bolted together, so changing the plate stack order was all that was required to get things lined up.
      • When I had the clutch quadrant set up to my liking, I located the center for the clutch cable firewall adjuster with the aid of a wire rod sitting in the cable location in the clutch quadrant. A bit of machining oil and a hole saw were a good match for the putting the new hold in place in the frame.

    • After everything was lined up, time for degreasing, metal prep, wash / dry, and paint with POR15...and final assembly.


    Dry fit, with clutch quadrant in new location, and cable end lined up:






    Frame mods. I had to mount the cable adjuster at an angle to accommodate the existing holes in the frame. For the clutch interference mod, I used solid 5/8" square rod on the outside and used JB Weld to insert a portion of solid rod in each of the frame ends. I then drilled and tapped blind holes in the inserts to hold the new frame section.







    Final assembly:









    Next its on to finishing front end suspension and steering. I had picked up an Autozone rack a few years ago, and after looking at the workmanship / fit & finish, I just couldn't do it. I ordered a reman unit from Breeze and am very happy with the quality. That's in place now, and ready for tie rods, front sway bar, and then front end alignment.
    Last edited by John Ibele; 05-12-2018 at 12:41 PM.
    MK4 #7838: IRS 3.55 TrueTrac T5z Dart 347
    The drawing is from ~7th grade, mid-1970s
    Meandering, leisurely build thread is here

  12. #11
    Senior Member Hacksaw84's Avatar
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    That is a pretty interesting story on the drawing.

  13. #12
    Senior Member John Ibele's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hacksaw84 View Post
    That is a pretty interesting story on the drawing.
    Yeah, that was a fun one. The folks are both 93 and still going, went over for Mother's day and saw photos of my dad on his sub in WWII that I had never seen before, so there's probably still more surprises in store.
    MK4 #7838: IRS 3.55 TrueTrac T5z Dart 347
    The drawing is from ~7th grade, mid-1970s
    Meandering, leisurely build thread is here

  14. #13
    Senior Member John Ibele's Avatar
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    Steering rack

    I got back in to the shop on Mother's day with #1 son after all the moms were happy, and got the steering rack in place and centered and bolts torqued. I had purchased an Autozone rack some time ago but decided to go with the refurbished mustang power rack from Breeze, which looked great out of the box and went in cleanly with the usual thorough instructions. I hooked up the steering wheel temporarily just to make moving to the limits of travel easier, and to check the fit of the steering column. I followed the suggestions from Jeff and GWL in this post to determine if I needed to cut any of the inner tie rod ends off to allow toe-in adjustment. Its a close thing, but it looks like I could take off 1/2" to leave plenty of room for adjustment and still have >1-1/2" of thread engagement, so I'll do that.

    Two items came up along the way...the Breeze power rack has bellows of two different materials, which I wondered about. Paul's post from his 20th anniversary build thread shows the bellows are different on his rack as well, so I'm moving ahead.

    Along the way toward lining up the front wheels, something looked wrong with the rear wheel setup. With the laser level lined up on the rear wheels, the top of the discs looked further away from the center line of the car. Take out the caster camber gauge, stick it on the disc...yup, I very carefully set up the rear with 1/2 deg positive camber, not 1/2 deg negative. At least that's the easiest item to change in the rear alignment, and shouldn't throw off toe-in (provided I set THAT right, which is the first thing I'll check when I get back there). All part of the learning process, and a reminder that checking a 3rd or 4th time can never hurt.

    Rack in place:




    Passenger side:




    Driver side:


    MK4 #7838: IRS 3.55 TrueTrac T5z Dart 347
    The drawing is from ~7th grade, mid-1970s
    Meandering, leisurely build thread is here

  15. #14
    Senior Member John Ibele's Avatar
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    It wasn't a big weekend for working on the car; with lots of family time arranged around our youngest's graduation from college. Lots of great memories of time with the family.

    But, I have been moving forward on miscellaneous items. I centered the rack and then got the front wheels pointed roughly forward by pulling strings forward from the rear disks and across the front discs. I measured the relative position of the tie rod ends when fully threaded in, to the steering arm. I cut 1/2" off the inner tie rods just to ensure plenty of adjustment room when dialing in front alignment. I was hoping to do front alignment with the frame leveled on floor jacks and the wheels propped up to ride height (to get around the uneven garage floor), but I'm not sure I can do that. I'll have to read up on that part. At any rate, good enough for now.



    I picked up a couple 5" steel swaged tubes in anticipation of setting the front wheels up for power steering with ~7 deg caster. The threads were a little tight with the black zinc coating but work fine after a few in / out cycles. Nothing is tightened at this point, I'll torque everything down after doing front alignment.



    I worked on centering the steering wheel (installed temporarily), and realized I couldn't remove the steering column without taking out the mounting bolts for the steering rack, which didn't seem like a great setup. I moved the lower pillow block to the inside of the footbox (common solution, from what I can tell), which isn't as aesthetically appealing but won't show much regardless. Some clearancing is required to get the block to fit next to the pedal box bracket. After that, getting the steering wheel centered with the front wheels pointed forward was fairly easy. I'm not going to lock anything down until I have the wheels on the ground, aligned and pointed straight ahead.



    Also, I picked up coupler nuts and other hardware for the drop tank fix. What's shown in the photo is 3/8"... not the right plan ... back to HD, which has the 7/16" coupler nuts but no 7/16" bolts, then back to Ace, which has 7/16" bolts but not the coupler nuts ... all good now.



    Most significantly, went to talk to a local engine builder last week, toured his shop and talked over ideas, and he'll be getting back to me with rough ballpark estimate w plenty of options to mull over. It will be SBF, stroked, Dart block, built stout but set up for 90% street / cruising / good manners, with occasional autocross and perhaps track time. I was pretty dedicated to the idea of having a carb on top, but I'm mighty tempted by throttle body injection, with the sniper system at a really attractive price point. Lots of good options, as with much of this project you eventually have to just make a choice. And, you can always tell yourself you don't have stop at just one car

    Next up is brake and fuel lines. I need to read up on the relative merits of hard line vs. 6AN line for fuel, since I know both have been used. That's it for now.
    Last edited by John Ibele; 05-31-2018 at 12:58 PM.
    MK4 #7838: IRS 3.55 TrueTrac T5z Dart 347
    The drawing is from ~7th grade, mid-1970s
    Meandering, leisurely build thread is here

  16. #15
    Senior Member John Ibele's Avatar
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    Here's a update and current status after a long time away.

    Last item in terms of front / rear suspension was to install the front sway bar. I had purchased this some time ago from a vendor; there are some similarities with what FFR did on the MKIV update since I bought my kit.



    I decided I wanted the expanded PS footbox, since I'm going with a small block, and I have two grown >6' tall sons that will want to be in that seat for some extended rides. I transferred all the plans to poster board in full size, fit all the poster board panels until I was satisfied with the fit, then transferred to aluminum and did the bending.

    I used a brake similar to the 30" HF model, and it worked okay, although it did bend a bit in the middle when doing panels that used up close to the full width. I also used a 3" hand seamer which was really handy. I just didn't have the hand strength to use the 6" seamer effectively. Its tough to do a long bend consistently with the hand seamer, but even there if you work bit by bit you can get close, then do some adjustments that make the bend look pretty good. The marks on the panel in the second image were my notes for where to adjust the bend I couldn't do in the brake, and had to do with the hand seamer.

    I was pretty satisfied with the end result, and it was fun to start figuring out how to fab with aluminum.





    I mounted the gas tank and figured out what to put in place for pump and return. I used Mark's Breeze kit, but I decided I wanted to do hard lines under the car, and he was happy to oblige me with whatever I wanted. The filter / regulator is a common OEM part, and while its a tight fit it does work and shouldn't pinch the flex line when I drop the tank.



    I have some more tidying up to do before I get the rest of the aluminum in place, and I'll tackle that as the next big item. Before that I want to finish up the steering column and get the rack set.

    Before any of that, I decided I'll do a detour and fab a dead pedal for the DS footbox.

    I have the older footbox without the bumpouts on either side. I thought quite a bit about fabbing those myself, and just decided I had enough room in the footbox to be comfortable just the way it is. I'm 6 feet, but my feet aren't particularly wide, and even with cross-trainers on (wide tread), I can hit Russ's gas pedal with the middle of my right foot, and have plenty of room for my left foot to rest on a dead pedal to the left of the clutch. So after thinking about it plenty that's my decision and I'm moving on.

    I learned how to drive (off road) when I was about 12, on a 1952 Studebaker truck. That was a fun learning curve for a 12-year-old. Dad was a patient teacher. It has (the truck's still in the family, that's another story) a stomp switch for the high beams to the left of the clutch, and I always pictured having the same thing on the floor for my left foot when I built the roadster. So I'll fab the dead pedal so it has room for the stomp switch just above where my foot will rest. I ordered 1/8" aluminum plate for the pedal, which is maybe a bit thicker than it needed to be, but should work just fine.

    Here's the bracket I fabbed out of aluminum angle.



    That's it for now. I'll post a picture or two of the dead pedal when its done.
    Last edited by John Ibele; 11-03-2019 at 09:03 PM.
    MK4 #7838: IRS 3.55 TrueTrac T5z Dart 347
    The drawing is from ~7th grade, mid-1970s
    Meandering, leisurely build thread is here

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    Senior Member John Ibele's Avatar
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    Dead Pedal

    Just a minor update for this week. I finished fabricating the dead pedal:



    I'll paint the bracket black before installing so that the pedal itself shows without the bracket. I'm pretty pleased with the fit. Here's what it looks like installed:



    With my foot resting on the dead pedal, the switch is just above my foot, and there's plenty of room to bump the switch without hitting the frame.



    When my foot is on the clutch, there's also plenty of clearance from the dead pedal, even when my foot is to left of center on the clutch:



    After spraying the bracket black to match the frame, it should be ready to install.

    Next up, I'll continue some tidying up before running brake and fuel lines. First item is to add the access panel for the DS footbox to allow servicing the master cylinder / pedal box area. My older MK4 kit doesn't have that, and I can't see doing without it.
    MK4 #7838: IRS 3.55 TrueTrac T5z Dart 347
    The drawing is from ~7th grade, mid-1970s
    Meandering, leisurely build thread is here

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  19. #17
    Senior Member John Ibele's Avatar
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    DS Footbox Access, Cockpit Aluminum

    I've been able to make some more progress over the past few weeks. I got answers to my question about the access panel at the top of the DS footbox from John, Boyd and others. Thanks, guys!

    I learned a few things along the way but the end result looks okay I think.



    I know everyone comes up with their own tools and techniques for aluminum fab. I'm still figuring out how to get where I want to go efficiently and with good results. I've got a double shear for rough cuts - I wish I could use it with a straight edge, but it binds when I try that. I can get close, then finish with a file for straight edges. I got the Eastwood hand nibbler for minor stuff, which is handy. My multi-tool and Dremel also work for certain things. After fabbing the cutout on the top of the DS, I'll get some sanding drums for the hand drill or drill press. Tops on the wish list is probably a combination belt / disk sander.

    I also got the cockpit aluminum pretty much finished off. The only panels that didn't fit too well were the rear cockpit corners against the transmission tunnel. My kit was fairly early on in the MK4 era, so they may have refined those panels later. I got them to fit although the tabs don't have full overlap. You can see that where the corner pieces meet the small center panel to the rear of the transmission tunnel. Structurally its fine and lays just the way it should, so I think okay. Everything else seemed to line up really well, just a few adjustments and trims here and there.

    And, the holes are still rough - I'll clean them up with a twist of my 9/16" drill bit or dovetail bit before riveting anything. Let me know if you see anything else I need to attend to.



    I have a couple of questions. One is a general workmanship question. On the panel that goes under the door, the welds on the 'X' part of the frame don't allow the panel to sit flat against the frame. Not a huge deal, could leave as is with a 1/8" bump, and only I would know its there once carpet is in place. But still. Common problem I think and I'm happy to do a quick touch with the angle grinder and then touch up with POR15. Question is, how much does it weaken the structure if I do that in that spot? Its not exactly a crumple zone Its hard to get a good photo so I hope the explanation is clear. Here's the best I could do:




    At some point I'm going to want to button up the steering and Loctite the steering column where it engages with the rack. Probably after I paint the DS footbox front and run brake and fuel lines. Here's what I've done so far:


    • followed Mark's instructions for centering the Breeze rack
    • trimmed the inner tie rods 1/2" based on the engagement with the tie rod ends
    • turned the tie rod ends in the same number of turns on each side and checked what toe-in would look like. Similar on each side.
    • did rough adjustment of toe in after bolting everything together ... the inner tie rods were adjusted within a turn of each other, which I think is confirmation that I did okay with centering the rack
    • with wheels pointing straight ahead and with centered rack, found the splines which allow the steering wheel to be centered. Marked with paint marker (doesn't show in the photo, ignore the red and blue paint).


    Let me know if it seems like I missed anything there.

    I think I don't need to grind a flat in the splines with the rack I have: with the coupler engaged all the way, the set screw seems to fall in the center of the necked down area that goes all the way around the circumference of the input shaft. So although the flat doesn't align with where the set screw lands, it doesn't seem to matter (because the set screw will land in the necked down area).



    Okay, questions:


    • am I thinking right about the set screw in this case?
    • is there a reason to wait for until some later point to semi-permanently button this up (with blue Loctite)?
    • Loctite on set screw and jam nut only? Or also on splines themselves?
    • the rest of the steering column ... lots of button head cap screws. Beyond making sure they're snug, do I need to do any other safety checks?


    Sorry for all the beginner questions, but I just can't feel comfortable skipping steps with safety items.
    Last edited by John Ibele; 11-15-2019 at 12:54 PM.
    MK4 #7838: IRS 3.55 TrueTrac T5z Dart 347
    The drawing is from ~7th grade, mid-1970s
    Meandering, leisurely build thread is here

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    Your build looks great - although I can't imagine stretching it out over all that time. I'd forget everything and what was left to be done. The set screw will fall in the reduced neck area. Just Loctite the set screw. It's best, after everything is complete, to loctite all the set screws.

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  22. #19
    Senior Member John Ibele's Avatar
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    Yeah, its just a long time, and I know most of these long time builds don't get done. To emphasize your point, I just spent way too much of the weekend trying to figure out where the e-brake and a growing list of other items went to ... up way too late, then lie awake wondering what I missed ... next day, open up a box I swear I had looked in before, there are the missing items, with the inventory sheets carefully attached to each one, but never a photo record. I had done the complete inventory and taken photos of all the inventory sheets but not those. So hopefully the worst of the time-lag-induced miscues are behind me. It sure is more satisfying when you can head back in within a day or so of your last session, and not spend time figuring out where the heck you are in the build.

    Every slow builder has their own story about how life happens. In our case, finished raising 2+ kids in addition to our own 3, and looked after various members of the extended family. We have the means and the aptitude (well, at least the wife does!) - and in the end, very satisfying work. So a clear priority over the car for some period of time.

    But, all good now on the build front. Fun to get back to it. Thanks for the answer on Loctite / steering column!
    MK4 #7838: IRS 3.55 TrueTrac T5z Dart 347
    The drawing is from ~7th grade, mid-1970s
    Meandering, leisurely build thread is here

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  24. #20
    Senior Member Fixit's Avatar
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    Hey! Good to hear from you...

    On the panel that goes under the door, the welds on the 'X' part of the frame don't allow the panel to sit flat against the frame. Not a huge deal, could leave as is with a 1/8" bump, and only I would know its there once carpet is in place. But still. Common problem I think and I'm happy to do a quick touch with the angle grinder and then touch up with POR15. Question is, how much does it weaken the structure if I do that in that spot? Its not exactly a crumple zone
    A few "love taps" with a ball-peen on either side of the weld bead will conform the aluminum around the hump and get it to fit flat... as you said, it'll be covered with carpet, and you won't break the integrity of the paint or deal with grinding the weld.

    I think I don't need to grind a flat in the splines with the rack I have: with the coupler engaged all the way, the set screw seems to fall in the center of the necked down area that goes all the way around the circumference of the input shaft. So although the flat doesn't align with where the set screw lands, it doesn't seem to matter (because the set screw will land in the necked down area).

    In this situation with a splined shaft with a recess... the splines are doing the work, holding the shaft in alignment and transferring the twisting force. The set screw is really just taking up the slop/clearance in the assembly and preventing the coupler from sliding fore & aft. A drop of Blue on the set screw, tighten it, and be done.

    John D. - Minneapolis 'Burbs

    1965 El Camino - LT-1, 4L60e, 4wh discs, SC&C susp.
    2013 F-150 Platinum - Twin Turbo 3.5
    2018 Mk4 Roadster w/ Coyote - #9365 - Build Thread Delivery 7/3/18, 1st Start 1/4/19, 1st Road Mile 5/5/19, Legal 6/18/19, In Paint 2/25/21, Done (?) 4/2021

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  26. #21
    Senior Member John Ibele's Avatar
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    Excellent, thanks John! By the way, do I get a ride in that roadster when the weather turns back around? The only thing I'll have on the road at that point is a '52 Studebaker pickup, which ... rides like you'd expect. But, when its time to drop the engine / trans in place in the roadster, expect a call.

    Cheers,

    -- John
    MK4 #7838: IRS 3.55 TrueTrac T5z Dart 347
    The drawing is from ~7th grade, mid-1970s
    Meandering, leisurely build thread is here

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    Senior Member Fixit's Avatar
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    By the way, do I get a ride in that roadster when the weather turns back around?
    By that time it'll be back home from being "Kleinerized" and YES... you will get a ride!
    John D. - Minneapolis 'Burbs

    1965 El Camino - LT-1, 4L60e, 4wh discs, SC&C susp.
    2013 F-150 Platinum - Twin Turbo 3.5
    2018 Mk4 Roadster w/ Coyote - #9365 - Build Thread Delivery 7/3/18, 1st Start 1/4/19, 1st Road Mile 5/5/19, Legal 6/18/19, In Paint 2/25/21, Done (?) 4/2021

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    Senior Member John Ibele's Avatar
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    Oh, that's right, I forgot one highlight from the weekend.

    Sure enough, the Ford 8.8 with the Eaton Truetrac in it takes 2 quarts of gear oil ... well, maybe just a little less.

    MK4 #7838: IRS 3.55 TrueTrac T5z Dart 347
    The drawing is from ~7th grade, mid-1970s
    Meandering, leisurely build thread is here

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    Senior Member John Ibele's Avatar
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    Build update - and engine pics

    Not a huge update but I have been making slow but steady progress over the past several weeks.

    I decided to do the firewall in thicker .090" 6061 aluminum for greater stiffness, and it turned out pretty well. I'm planning on a mechanical throttle linkage and this should provide a sturdier surface to mount it to. Went slow and easy with the jigsaw and finished with a file ... not as fast as having a combination disk / belt sander, which is on my shopping list, but in the end the piece turned out just as well.



    I also fabricated the bracket for the brake reservoirs and painted it. I started out with some of the 0.125" aluminum I had used for the dead pedal, and in addition to being more substantial than I needed, it was much too thick for me to bend with the equipment I have. I could have fabbed something with a flat plate of 0.125" thick aluminum and some 90 deg channel, but that would have required more fasteners and I was after a cleaner look. The 0.090" was at the limits of what I could bend, but I was able to get the bend to the radius I wanted. It should place the reservoirs horizontal when in the car.

    I used Prekote and abrasive pad to prep the aluminum and followed up with spray can primer and semi-gloss black enamel. I was pretty happy with how it turned out.

    I saw Paul's note from his last build on the 1/8" NPT threads on the reservoirs. I was able to do a couple turns on each fitting by hand before using the wrench, and another 2-1/2 turns before things got really tight, so I think I'm okay there.



    I got Mark's Breeze kit for putting the battery in front. No photos yet but as always, its a high quality set of parts with complete instructions, delivered quickly. Although stainless, I decided to paint it black to have it visually out of the way, with the exception of the stainless rods on each side.

    Lastly, I finally got around to opening up Russ's drop trunk kit and got that put in place. The only thing that would have made things easier on this part of the build would have been to clamp wood backers temporarily on the PS and rear sides where there are cutouts for the frame, to keep them straight when measuring and drilling. I found that in time - partially because I did cut the opening in the trunk 1/2" undersize, per Russ's instructions, before cutting to the final size. After some careful measuring and aligning, followed by finish filing, I drilled a few holes to hold the 'box' with clekos, and then drilled the rest.



    Last but not least, I've been keeping up with my engine builder as he moves from machining the block to rotating assembly to ... all the stuff I need to be picking out. I'm going for kind of an old-school, workmanlike look, with not a lot of polish. But, a rock solid reliable engine with a bit of get up 'n go. Dart 302 block stroked to 347, Scat crank and forged internals, roller hydraulic lifters and roller rockers, mounted on AFR heads. Kinda fun picking out the right combination of components to finish off the top and the front dress.

    When I purchased the kit, throttle body fuel injection was not as refined as it is now, and I had decided to go with a carb setup, and got the full length 4 into 4 headers. But I kept an eye on throttle body fuel injection as it developed and finally decided to go this direction. Both can work fine, both can cause problems, but I just decided that if I needed to do a deep dive to resolve something at the end of the build, I'd rather spend time with code, sensors and electrical diagnosis rather than rebuilding a carb, changing jets, and handling fuel. Good opportunity to learn something new. So Sniper EFI it is. I got the fuel tank set up with a combined filter / regulator in the rear, and was ready to move on.

    So now with the choice of using EFI comes the question of how to handle the O2 sensor location. Place it somewhere on the header and use information from just 1 cylinder to determine what's happening with all 8 ... based on reading the forum, some have gotten it to work, but not all, and it didn't seem like a great idea to me. Could go a different route with two different and beautiful pieces - GP stainless headers or Gas N stainless headers, which have a 4 into 1 into 4 arrangement, and the capability to mount the O2 sensor at the top of the pipe, which is ideally where Holley wants it. But while appealing in terms of sensor accuracy, didn't make much sense to me in terms of exhaust flow. Carb / EFI ... EFI / Carb ... wake up honey, you're having a bad dream ...

    Finally, read some more threads and convinced myself that having the O2 in the collector in the side pipe, pointing slightly down to avoid the body, should work just fine. Condensation shouldn't be a problem at anywhere more than just the bottom of the pipe, and mounting just slightly below horizontal, or even midway between the inboard side and the bottom should be good enough to stay out of collected moisture. And, still above the bottom of the frame, so out of harm's way in that respect. That seemed like a compromise, but one I could live with. So, moving ahead.

    My first look at the rotating assembly ...



    Ken flipping the engine over ...



    ... and a few days later, with engine paint, ready for heads, and ready for me to bring in valve covers, pulleys, alternator, PS pump ...





    Pretty fun, and a good motivator to keep up on the car end.
    MK4 #7838: IRS 3.55 TrueTrac T5z Dart 347
    The drawing is from ~7th grade, mid-1970s
    Meandering, leisurely build thread is here

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  31. #25
    Senior Member John Ibele's Avatar
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    Heater, Brake Lines

    A long time since my last post ... pre-pandemic, get everybody at work set up for work from home, scurry to get our youngest back from teaching English in Japan before things get locked down, lost Mom after 95 years of a great life, get in to console Dad before the building gets locked down, then George Floyd (happened about 3 miles from here), run a safe house for the kids since they live too close, ash raining down on the front yard ... yeesh! What the heck next ?!

    But ... great opportunity to take breaks in the garage and turn my mind to something else: work on the car. What a fantastic break from everything.

    I took on setting up the heater install next, and had the same problem others have had with the provided template not matching the actual part all that well. I modified the provided template and finally made a new one, which worked much better.



    I'm gradually getting better at fabrication with aluminum and the cutouts were pretty straightforward. I've been using the Fixit tip of replacing the drill bit in any hole saw with a solid rod, which gives a much better edge to the hole - thanks, Fixit!



    I held up the heater on the installed firewall to get the best placement for the wipers, and drilled the mounting holes for the wiper assembly.



    I found a U-bolt / pipe bracket of just the right size to mount the wiper motor, and wrapped the motor with some sheet rubber for a better grip. It worked out really well.



    I decided to fabricate a backing plate for the inside of the firewall to spread the load, although this is perhaps overkill with the thicker firewall I fabbed.



    After that it was time to start tackling brake lines. Virtually everything is a first-time experience for me on this car, and the brake lines are no exception. I started with a pretty OCD-dominated approach



    But, it helped with the learning and wrapping my brain around the best approach. I actually found just having a few samples of bends was really handy. Holding them up to the brake line at the right place and making marks seemed to work pretty well. I'll skip any photos of brake lines now; I'll do a more complete job in a separate post and folks can let me know if I visibly goofed anything up.
    MK4 #7838: IRS 3.55 TrueTrac T5z Dart 347
    The drawing is from ~7th grade, mid-1970s
    Meandering, leisurely build thread is here

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    Senior Member John Ibele's Avatar
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    Engine Update

    Meanwhile the engine was moving forward and actually wrapping up. Working with a local builder isn't the cheapest path, but that decision is over and done with and I'm very happy with the end result. I got to work with a great guy who did a top notch job, and it was a lot of fun going back and forth on build details and component selection. Having a unique build that you had a hand in shaping is part of the satisfaction.

    I wanted a workmanlike look with not much bling, and the look is exactly what I was striving for.





    With the engine done, time to visit the dyno, another new experience. Great guys who were fun to work with, and very happy with the end result. We started with a standard Holley carb because the builder didn't want to take any chances with break-in. I understand that perfectly. After that was done and some initial pulls completed, we switched over to the Hyperspark distributor and Sniper EFI. We had some snags with a breakup in timing right at 4000 RPM every time. Then rough idle that finally quit. No worries about the engine itself; that had proven solid, it was just timing breaking up. Wait a few minutes, start it again, everything fine until the pull hit 4000 RPM. There's a head-scratcher, plus its Friday afternoon, what to tell the customer, leave it on the stand and puzzle it out on Monday? Finally called Holley and asked for advice, since the problem seemed electrical / possible RFI related. Spark plug wires were carefully chosen to minimize RFI, but all components somewhat haphazardly dangling temporarily in the dyno cell. Then we saw the shop standard MSD spark box mounted right there by the engine ... Holley rep saw no problem with swapping out the Hyperspark charge box for the MSD box temporarily. After that, smooth pull to 6k RPM ... nice consistent torque and HP still rising at 6k RPM. Wonderful. And no interest in exploring territory north of there ... heck, I'll see how often I push it above 5k as it is.






    So, very happy with the end result and with the experience. Holley said they would make things right with the Hyperspark / Sniper setup when the time came to fire up the engine in the car, and frankly, I'm not too concerned. There was plenty of room for improvement in how we had things mounted, and everything points to RFI glitches at this point. I'll follow the manual's guide to install and see where I end up. As for the engine itself, its proven its good to go.

    Next up will be paint on the engine compartment panels. I cleaned and sprayed with gray hammertone, and followed that up with clear coat ... not happy at all with results. More on that in the next post, whenever that is.
    MK4 #7838: IRS 3.55 TrueTrac T5z Dart 347
    The drawing is from ~7th grade, mid-1970s
    Meandering, leisurely build thread is here

  33. #27
    Senior Member Fixit's Avatar
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    Hey!! Good to see you out in the garage again!
    John D. - Minneapolis 'Burbs

    1965 El Camino - LT-1, 4L60e, 4wh discs, SC&C susp.
    2013 F-150 Platinum - Twin Turbo 3.5
    2018 Mk4 Roadster w/ Coyote - #9365 - Build Thread Delivery 7/3/18, 1st Start 1/4/19, 1st Road Mile 5/5/19, Legal 6/18/19, In Paint 2/25/21, Done (?) 4/2021

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    Senior Member John Ibele's Avatar
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    Hey John - yep pluggin' away at my snail's pace, hacking away the best I can. Fun. Not sure if its as fun as driving it yet, but I guess I say that pleasure's still in front of me. I have to check your thread and see that ride looks like Kleinerized and all. Would be good to have a direct viewing at some point!
    MK4 #7838: IRS 3.55 TrueTrac T5z Dart 347
    The drawing is from ~7th grade, mid-1970s
    Meandering, leisurely build thread is here

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    Senior Member Fixit's Avatar
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    Still in GelCoat... trip to Indiana is looking like early October.
    John D. - Minneapolis 'Burbs

    1965 El Camino - LT-1, 4L60e, 4wh discs, SC&C susp.
    2013 F-150 Platinum - Twin Turbo 3.5
    2018 Mk4 Roadster w/ Coyote - #9365 - Build Thread Delivery 7/3/18, 1st Start 1/4/19, 1st Road Mile 5/5/19, Legal 6/18/19, In Paint 2/25/21, Done (?) 4/2021

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    Senior Member John Ibele's Avatar
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    I spent a lot of time trying to get satisfactory finish with rattle can hammertone paint on the footbox panels, with mixed results. Read what I could find on YouTube and other forums, did a number of trials, too thin and the hammer tone appearance wouldn't show up, too thick and it would look good for a while and then by the time it dried, it would have a matte & uneven finish. I finally got a few panels to look exactly how I wanted using fairly heavy loading on a horizontal surface, but others would just have problems ... very frustrating. Took a few panels to a local body shop and showed him both good and almost good panels. His take - he wouldn't be able to reliably do better, and thought they looked okay. Well, that's not what I wanted to hear. Back to more hypothesis / trial / repeat ...

    Finally after shooting one panel and then carefully lifting it from the bottom to move it a bit, I realized the panel was freezing cold. As Zylol flashes off I'm expecting it takes a lot of heat with it, and the panel and paint that are left behind are substantially below room temperature. Panels that I shot were mostly done above 50% RH, and its recommended to shoot below that RH level. What seemed to confirm it: so-so panels were fine on the high spots, with poor (matte) finish in the dips. So a few panels are on, and I'll wait to shoot the last few panels until the garage heater kicks in and starts to dry things out.

    No worries, there's always something else to work on, so I switched to finishing brake lines and opening up the box with the wiring harness. For the brakes, no new ground, just following what others have done. I'll post pictures so anyone can chime in with anything that doesn't look right.

    From the DS footbox ...



    ... through the front panel (one which turned out well) ...



    ... down to the LF wheel ...



    ... across the front on the X tube ...



    ... and around to the RF wheel:

    MK4 #7838: IRS 3.55 TrueTrac T5z Dart 347
    The drawing is from ~7th grade, mid-1970s
    Meandering, leisurely build thread is here

  37. #31
    Senior Member John Ibele's Avatar
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    For the rear brakes, again not plowing any new ground. I came down the inside of the DS footbox ...



    ... back up behind the cockpit ...



    ... hook up to the LR wheel ...





    ... and across to the RR wheel:



    Now its time for bleeding brakes, more on that in the next post. Am I missing anything? Look okay? Safety items make me nervous.
    MK4 #7838: IRS 3.55 TrueTrac T5z Dart 347
    The drawing is from ~7th grade, mid-1970s
    Meandering, leisurely build thread is here

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    Senior Member Fman's Avatar
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    Looking good John, you do some really nice work on those fuel and brake lines!
    Build #9818 completed 04/2021 - Dart SBF 427, PF4 EFI, TKO600 Build thread: https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/show...utton-head-mod
    Build review video:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6IAbo2sFt4&t=1111s My finished car: https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/atta...7&d=1638415131

  39. #33
    Senior Member John Ibele's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fman View Post
    Looking good John, you do some really nice work on those fuel and brake lines!

    Thanks, Fman! Picked up brake fluid, tubing and check valve over the weekend, so I'll know if I did anything wrong in the next couple of days.
    MK4 #7838: IRS 3.55 TrueTrac T5z Dart 347
    The drawing is from ~7th grade, mid-1970s
    Meandering, leisurely build thread is here

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  41. #34
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    Great post and love the photos
    You mention Mark Breeze drop trunk box, where do you find that and what do they cost?
    I've also read another post mentioning a similar box for a battery instillation, are you familiar with that?

  42. #35
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    Great job you are doing here. Most impressive to me. I'm in the process of getting the pieces together to build one. Also over thinking everything.
    So please excuse the questions, what are these copper sleeved pins sticking out of the sheet metal, are they rivets that haven't been set yet?
    Also all the brake lines and grommets and line mounting clips, are they included in the parts kit?

  43. #36
    Senior Member John Ibele's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mark jones View Post
    Great job you are doing here. Most impressive to me. I'm in the process of getting the pieces together to build one. Also over thinking everything.
    So please excuse the questions, what are these copper sleeved pins sticking out of the sheet metal, are they rivets that haven't been set yet?
    Also all the brake lines and grommets and line mounting clips, are they included in the parts kit?
    Hey Mark - glad to help in any way I can. To answer your questions, you can look up Russ Thompson for the drop trunk, which is a great way to get some more storage space or room for your travel tools. He also has a turn signal kit which works well with the Roadster. For the battery, check out Breeze Automotive, which has an extensive catalog of options for how to spend even more money after you spend money on your kit. Both Russ and Mark are solidly established vendors and solid human beings who provide great service to the FFR community.

    Related to your 'overthinking everything' comment ... that's pretty common. Before I bought the kit, I had a detailed spreadsheet of components and costs. And I actually stressed out about it. What I was forgetting (or hadn't learned yet!) was that ... I'm slow. Famously slow. Mine is a 2012-vintage kit. I could make excuses, but why do I need to? I worked, traveled, finished raising kids, took care of a couple 90-year-olds, had plenty of fun times with the wife and family, and still had fun making (really slow) progress on the car. And along the way, totally forgot about the budget. I'm not wealthy, just slowly spending money on a hobby, with an occasional bump. If I went back to the spreadsheet now it would be for entertainment more than anything else. I'm not saying don't do one ... do it if it makes you happy, and it'll still be good entertainment later

    As for the 'copper sleeved pins' ... those are cleco fasteners, and you need those. They are spring-loaded, and the 'push pin' at the end is activated with a special cleco pliers. Cleco's are invaluable for temporarily fastening two panels together or fastening a panel to the frame, until you're ready to do the final riveting. Aircraft Spruce is one vendor (their catalog is good reading in its own right), but there are others. You'll put each panel on and off several times by the time you finally do the final riveting. For the most common size you'll need 25-50 or more depending on how many you like to use and how you sequence your build.

    Continue to cruise around the forum and read more build threads to get an idea of the wide variety of build skills and approaches there are out there. Everyone covers something slightly different in their build threads, and does things in a slightly different way. And chime in with questions in the build threads or in the main Roadster forum. You'll never find a friendlier or more helpful bunch of folks to answer your questions and share what they know. Good luck!
    MK4 #7838: IRS 3.55 TrueTrac T5z Dart 347
    The drawing is from ~7th grade, mid-1970s
    Meandering, leisurely build thread is here

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  45. #37
    Senior Member Fixit's Avatar
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    Looking very nice John!!
    No issues or concerns with your brake line routing or bending - it's beautiful work.
    John D. - Minneapolis 'Burbs

    1965 El Camino - LT-1, 4L60e, 4wh discs, SC&C susp.
    2013 F-150 Platinum - Twin Turbo 3.5
    2018 Mk4 Roadster w/ Coyote - #9365 - Build Thread Delivery 7/3/18, 1st Start 1/4/19, 1st Road Mile 5/5/19, Legal 6/18/19, In Paint 2/25/21, Done (?) 4/2021

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  47. #38
    Senior Member John Ibele's Avatar
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    Hey, thanks John! I appreciate the experienced set of eyes. I almost texted you this weekend as the beginner mistakes were mounting.

    The pressure bleeder showed up on the front step on Saturday morning, so bleeding the brakes seemed like a logical thing to do next. Bench bleeding the cylinders was easy, just used a short length of brake line connected to 1/4" flex hose to route each cylinder back to its reservoir, and pumped the brake until the bubbles were out of the system.

    Then things got tougher ... first, I had hooked up the pressure bleeder to each reservoir using the CNC cap I had found on eBay with the built-in schrader valve, just to see if both systems held pressure. Both front and back had held pressure without a problem. Turns out, that's because I had clamped the bare hose from the pressure bleeder to the schrader valve, and schrader valves don't respond to air pressure (should have remembered that), they need the pin to actually be physically depressed. Some head scratching before finding that out, but no problem, removed the schrader valve and replaced with an edelman-style brass fitting. But I already had brake fluid in the system at this point, so no chance to do the air pressure check first the right way. I figured I'd forge ahead and deal with any problems with leaky fittings if they showed up. Open up the right rear bleeder valve ... nothing happening, no flow at all. System still sitting at 5 psi ... what the heck ... after a fair amount of head scratching, checked the check valve on the cheapy AutoZone bleeder hose ... frozen. Ditched that and replaced with simple 1/4" id hose, and everything's working right.

    Turns out the most I needed to do was snug up a few fittings, with the exception of the last place where you really want to deal with brake fluid ... the connections to the master cylinders. Wrapped as many shop rags as possible around the cylinders, pulled the lines out, inspected, cleaned, reseated, retightened ... everything looks okay, no leaks after bleeding all 4 brakes and standing on the pedal for a bit. Only nagging issue is a DS front brake which doesn't seem to release all the way, but that seems to be a different issue ... I'll see if something got behind a pad or I just didn't seat them right.

    So in the end, a bit wiser and with a few practical items to remember for next time. Par for the course for a first time builder, I think. Onward!
    Last edited by John Ibele; 10-12-2020 at 10:48 AM.
    MK4 #7838: IRS 3.55 TrueTrac T5z Dart 347
    The drawing is from ~7th grade, mid-1970s
    Meandering, leisurely build thread is here

  48. #39
    Senior Member John Ibele's Avatar
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    I mentioned earlier in the thread about the difficulties I had getting a finish I was happy with using hammertone paint. Keep in mind this is Rustoleum rattlecan paint, so nothing fancy. But I got a few good examples that had me going back and trying again. After waiting for the humidity to come down as the garage heater started kicking in this fall, I finally got the last panels done to my satisfaction. Here's one of the better early examples from the DS footbox:



    What I was after was the deep separation that makes hammertone pop, but with a lot of clear finish floating over the top. I found that you do have to put the paint down pretty thick, which means ideally the surface is horizontal so the paint doesn't start to sag. But, there were enough other factors that I didn't have nailed down so it still wasn't a 100% guaranteed process even at the end ... just multiple tries on some panels.

    Here's the engine bay ready to go (with weird light ... tried to get as much on it as possible, to limit the ISO setting on the camera ... still doesn't capture it as well as the previous closeup):



    If there's ever another build in my future it won't happen this way again. I'll be happy to head to the custom powder coater who's done a good job on my other parts, plop down my $600 or whatever, and have him do his thing. Having said that, I finally did get the result I wanted and I think it looks perfectly fine. Pretty excited to leave this chapter behind me, move on to buttoning up the fuel line and gas tank, and then turn my sights to wiring.
    Last edited by John Ibele; 10-14-2020 at 10:56 PM.
    MK4 #7838: IRS 3.55 TrueTrac T5z Dart 347
    The drawing is from ~7th grade, mid-1970s
    Meandering, leisurely build thread is here

  49. #40
    Senior Member John Ibele's Avatar
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    Hard fuel line done.

    I've been able to get some time in over the last week to work on the hard fuel line, which is now in. For the 3/8" line, I used an OTC bender which taxed my aging biceps to the limit ... but, could get it done. The benders also could scratch through the coating on the AGS Poly-armor steel line that I used pretty easily, so it took some practice to get neat bends without any scratching.

    Starting from the rear, I brought the line all the way back to just above the front edge of the tank, since my regulator / filter sits on top of the tank, and I'll only use enough flex line to drop the tank. Also, I'll be using Sniper EFI, but since the regular is right at the tank, the return line is right there as well. So I only have one line going to the front of the car. Here's the view of the back of the line:






    The side view going down to the 4" round:



    Then forward on the outside, as far up as I could:



    Then up and following the inside panel of the PS footbox.



    I actually enjoyed doing the brake and fuel lines once I got the hang of it. The Let-lok fittings were easy to work with to get to AN compatible connections on each end. I'll make up flex lines for each end and then pressure test just to make sure I did everything right.
    MK4 #7838: IRS 3.55 TrueTrac T5z Dart 347
    The drawing is from ~7th grade, mid-1970s
    Meandering, leisurely build thread is here

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