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Thread: LS3 accessory drive question

  1. #1

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    LS3 accessory drive question

    I need some schooling!
    Is there any reason the stock LS3 alternator and AC compressor can't be used?
    Looking at some of the aftermarket ($$$) kits it looks like you still need to buy a different harmonic balancer and water pump.
    I don't need all chrome parts, the hood and side covers will be on 99% of the time.
    Also don't need the PS pump either, I'm getting the electric steering.
    The Alan Grove 144R AC bracket should work with the Sanden compressor, just not sure about an alternator bracket.
    My harmonic balancer is a Corvette 1997-2013, with 1.5" space from the front of the balancer to the machined surface that the bolt screws into.
    Last edited by JimLev; 01-25-2018 at 05:53 PM.

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    See post 89 in this build log. It shows that the CTS alternator and bracket will fit. The GM compressor can be fit to the engine, but the only '33 that I've seen with it used a custom machined bracket. This posting also has a photobucket link, that shows how this builder made his own bracket for a Sanden compressor, so I know it can fit, but the bracket had no belt tensioner, which isn't the best setup. I'd still try an Alan Grove bracket. It bolts to the same two 10mm threaded holes in the block and I know from owning one that the compressor almost touches one of those mounting bolts. Worst case, a little slotting of the compressor mounting holes might make it work. You can always return the bracket, if it doesn't fit.

    http://www.ffcars.com/forums/120-fac...6-build-3.html

    In this same build thread, there's a mention of a bracket from Dirty Dingo that should work, but the compressor may be too small.

    https://www.dirtydingo.com/shop/prod...oducts_id=1660

    Here's the GM kit at Pace performance. If you click on documents, there are instructions with every part number in the kit. It might be cheaper to buy the parts individually, to skip the power steering parts.

    https://paceperformance.com/i-648540...6-engines.html
    Last edited by DaveS53; 01-26-2018 at 09:20 AM.

  3. #3

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    Dave, thanks again for the help and info.
    Looks like that homemade bracket used a bolt and few nuts to move the compressor to tension the belt.

    I'll get in touch with Alen Grove and Vintage air tomorrow.

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    I agree with your statement concerning the price of accessory drives for the LS3. I will not be running a hood or side covers, so I wanted something that looked fairly nice. I am not building a show car (beyond my skill and budget), but instead a 50/50 cruiser. I have researched this for months, I have a problem with spending 2.5-3K on a drive system. Holley makes some but all have power steering. The other day I came across a small company who manufactures one for $1.6K. It will be here today and I will post pictures.
    Thanks,
    Andy

  5. #5
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    I took a really accurate measurement of the pulley location on my Alan Grove setup. I got exactly 11 inches from the center line of the balancer to the outer edge of the compressor pulley. The balancer is 7-3/4" in diameter, so a measurement taken from the side of the balancer pulley will be 3-7/8" less. The front of the compressor pulley sits about 1-1/4 inches behind the front of the balancer. I'd cut a piece of 2x4 lumber to 7-1/8" length and see if it will slip between the balancer and the chassis tube, with the front of the wood block flush with the front of the balancer. If not, then it's not going to fit.

    If looks are a concern, chrome plated Sanden compressors are not expensive. You won't find a polished or chromed CTS alternator, since the are not a common hot rod item.

    https://nostalgicac.com/new-sanden-s...erpentine.html

    The dirty dingo compressor bracket is supposed to position the pulley only 10-5/8" from the balancer, but you'd need to ask Vintage air about the small compressor displacement.

    https://www.dirtydingo.com/shop/prod...oducts_id=1660

    You can get a chrome version of the SB710 compressor.

    https://nostalgicac.com/sanden-style...ompressor.html
    Last edited by DaveS53; 01-26-2018 at 11:25 AM.

  6. #6

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    Thanks for the info Dave, you always come thru. I finally feel like I'm getting a handle on all these parts that don't come with the Connect and Cruise package.

    I just measured my balancer, it's 7-5/8", close enough. I spoke with Vintage air today, they have the same compressor bracket as Alan Grove is selling. The drawing is exactly the same except for the p/n, 141811. AG p/n is 144R.

    I also found out that a lot of those eBay and other places that sell Sanden "style" compressors are all made in China. Vintage said theirs is made in the US, Texas I think. He recommended that I use their SD 709 compressor which is a 7 piston unit, 9.5 cu in. The 508 is a 5 piston 8.4 cu in unit and reportedly had some harmonic/vibration issues.
    They sell the SD 709 for $209 for the standard finished and $259 for the polished unit, the bracket for $175. I'll need 12" of clearance from the block to the frame so I'll wait until my kit arrives before I order the parts. I could get the DirtyDingo if I have less than 12".
    https://www.vintageair.com/search-re...9%20Compressor

    My Lokar shifter won't ship until Feb 5th.
    Got the 10% rebate on the BBK headers today, still waiting for the big rebate from GM.

    Now to get a low mount alternator and bracket.
    Last edited by JimLev; 01-26-2018 at 10:31 PM.

  7. #7
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    You're right about the balancer diameter, it 7-5/8". I with a belt around the balancer, one end of my tape was probably catching the belt. A recheck with a machinist's rule gave me 7.6.

    I bought one of the Chinese made 709 compressors for my car and it's been working fine. For the low mount alternator, it's easy to look up the individual GM part numbers. Most of the parts are cheap, except for the alternator, unless you're willing to buy a rebuilt unit, that will be less than half the cost of a new one.

    The minimum parts needed are the 12569301 belt tensioner, 25766345 alternator, 12578550 alternator bracket, 12568996 idler pulley, plus the Dirty Dingo idler pulley to replace the power steering pump. Without an idler pulley in the PS pump location, you won't get a decent amount of wrap on the water pump pulley. This list doesn't include the metric mounting bolts. I replaced a lot of GM bolts with stainless steel bolts.

    The drive belt length will have to be figured out by trial and error, since the idler pulley replacing the PS pump is much smaller. What I found when building my custom accessory drive, is that the tensioner needs to to be retracted as much as possible and held in that position, while installing the belt. I had to use a belt length that was difficult to install, in order for the tensioner not to exceed it's travel when released. There are two marks on the tensioner housing that indicate the proper range of tension. There's a very narrow range between too long and too short.
    Last edited by DaveS53; 01-27-2018 at 10:32 AM.

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    Dave;

    What was the part number for the belt that would work?


    Bryon
    Last edited by bellingson; 01-31-2018 at 10:14 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bellingson View Post
    Dave;

    What was the part number for the bely that would work?


    Bryon
    Sorry, but I can't help with that. I built a different setup with a CTS power steering pump, Alan Grove compressor bracket and a high mount alternator bracket that I made myself, for my '37.

    Some people use a string and others use a Taylor's tape to measure around the pulleys. Masking tape would also work. It's still only approximate. Convert the length to millimeters and you'll have the part number for some brands. For example, a 6PK2075 is a 6 rib 2075mm belt. Dayco's website allows you to put in a length and get several close part numbers.
    Last edited by DaveS53; 01-27-2018 at 08:15 PM.

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    I used one of these to run engine in without alternator and will add links back in with alternator to determine final length. Works great.

    https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1
    Aerodynamics are for those who can't build engines - Enzo Ferrari

    FFR33 coupe #997, ordered 2/20/17, delivered 4/15/17, build thread
    Planned: 350SBC, TKO600, hardtop, no fenders/hood, 32 grill, 3 link, GT500 wheels

  11. #11
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    We're talking serpentine belts, not V-belts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveS53 View Post
    We're talking serpentine belts, not V-belts.
    Yeah I figured. Never had one so wondered if it would still work as a temporary
    Aerodynamics are for those who can't build engines - Enzo Ferrari

    FFR33 coupe #997, ordered 2/20/17, delivered 4/15/17, build thread
    Planned: 350SBC, TKO600, hardtop, no fenders/hood, 32 grill, 3 link, GT500 wheels

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    Dave, question about the p/n's in post 7. Did you use the water pump, and harmonic balancer that came with the LS3?
    I'm getting ready to order those parts.
    Just got an email from Jegs, my Lokar shifter is delayed, now shipping on the 10th.
    Last edited by JimLev; 01-29-2018 at 08:27 PM. Reason: Fix typo

  14. #14
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    The listed parts for the CTS drive work with the stock Corvette water pump and balancer. I wanted my setup to use all stock GM parts. Most aftermarket drives use an Edelbrock pump. They all change the balancer and use custom pulleys to move all the parts forward by 1-1/2 to 2".

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    Thanks Dave, will order them now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HVACMAN View Post
    I agree with your statement concerning the price of accessory drives for the LS3. I will not be running a hood or side covers, so I wanted something that looked fairly nice. I am not building a show car (beyond my skill and budget), but instead a 50/50 cruiser. I have researched this for months, I have a problem with spending 2.5-3K on a drive system. Holley makes some but all have power steering. The other day I came across a small company who manufactures one for $1.6K. It will be here today and I will post pictures.
    The accessory drive arrived on Friday. I am pleased so far with the workmanship (excellent), and the price ($1,000 cheaper than many others). I am waiting on a flexplate holding tool, so I can remove the crankshaft pulley bolt. The other thing I like about this set up is, it is an eight groove system instead of six, like most others use. Less chance of belt slippage.IMG_1026.JPG
    Thanks,
    Andy

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    Andy, those look nice. Guess you need to change the harmonic balancer to use them?
    Where did you get the acc drive parts from?

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    This looks like the company.

    https://www.cvfracing.com/Chevy-LS-E...raptor-aco.htm

    Here's something else I noticed. Vintage air uses the small (peanut) Sanden compressor on some of their front runner kits, so they must consider it to be OK for some applications. To minimize the chance of frame interference, the Dirty Dingo low mount bracket would be the best choice. If it comes with a 6-rib clutch pulley, that would be better than the common 8 rib like I have. The 8 rib just makes the compressor fit more flexible, since it only takes a 4 rib belt to operate the compressor. I have one rib at the back and three in front that are not used.

    https://www.vintageair.com/accessori...Front%20Runner
    Last edited by DaveS53; 01-30-2018 at 12:22 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JimLev View Post
    Andy, those look nice. Guess you need to change the harmonic balancer to use them?
    Where did you get the acc drive parts from?
    It did come from CVF Racing as Dave mentioned. You don't have to change the balancer just the bolt to add an adapter for the 8 groove pulley.
    Thanks,
    Andy

  20. #20
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    I was looking through the pictures that I downloaded from other builds and found this one, that does not look promising for any low mount AC compressor, without some sort of frame mod. The balancer is supposed to be a camaro model, that's 3/4" further forward than the corvette model.

    http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/album...chmentid=80135
    Last edited by DaveS53; 02-05-2018 at 10:36 AM.

  21. #21

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    Andy, your alt is a high mount one right?

    I did order an alternator and bracket from Summit, it's a low mount unit, should be here on Tuesday.
    I may need to change the balance pulley, will find out when the parts arrive.

    Update:
    The alternator arrived today (Sat) the mounting bracket won't be here until Wednesday.
    It looks like it will line up with the pulley on the damper.
    Last edited by JimLev; 02-03-2018 at 11:28 PM. Reason: Added more

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimLev View Post
    Andy, your alt is a high mount one right?

    I did order an alternator and bracket from Summit, it's a low mount unit, should be here on Tuesday.
    I may need to change the balance pulley, will find out when the parts arrive.

    Update:
    The alternator arrived today (Sat) the mounting bracket won't be here until Wednesday.
    It looks like it will line up with the pulley on the damper.
    IMG_1042.JPG
    Yes. I went with the high mount a/c and alternator.
    Thanks,
    Andy

  23. #23

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    Nice looking pulleys.
    Is the tranny dipstick a 24" Lokar? I need to get one.
    Was the braided fuel line and connection to the engine supplied by FF or did you buy it.
    Thanks.

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    I assume that Jim got this alternator bracket from Summit:

    http://www.ictbillet.com/ls-corvette...1-ls2-ls3.html

    The pictures show an 11.47 inch alternator width, but that could change depending on what alternator is used. ICT needs to note what model of alternator their bracket fits. The part number they gave is for a CS130D case model, but the alternator in their pictures doesn't seem to have the third leg.

    The big question with the high mount setup is will it fit within the confines of the hood and hood sides? Not an issue if you don't use either. To make the high mount look it's best, stainless steel braided AC hose is a must.
    Last edited by DaveS53; 02-05-2018 at 12:35 PM.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimLev View Post
    Nice looking pulleys.
    Is the tranny dipstick a 24" Lokar? I need to get one.
    Was the braided fuel line and connection to the engine supplied by FF or did you buy it.
    Thanks.
    The dipstick came from Jegs. 555-615953 FLEXIBLE DIPSTICK 4L60E $45.99 The fuel line came from Summit. NEX-12025 STAINLESS STEEL BRAIDED HOSE
    $40.70 The adapter came from Summit also. ICB-AN808-02B QUICK CONNECT FUEL RAIL
    Thanks,
    Andy

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    Dave, the alt I bought is this one.
    https://www.summitracing.com/parts/pwm-37461

    Yes, that looks like the ICT bracket I bought.
    https://www.summitracing.com/parts/icb-551668-3

    Andy, thanks for those p/n's.
    Glad that you guys are ahead of me and can help me out.
    Last edited by JimLev; 02-06-2018 at 12:07 AM. Reason: Typo

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    If you bought the -3 bracket, it's not going to work, since it has spacers for a truck balancer that is 1-1/2 inches longer. The -1 brackets are made for the Corvette balancer. The Corvette water pump won't work if the balancer is changed.

    http://www.ictbillet.com/ls-truck-al...33-billet.html

    Here's info on the balancer measurement. With the center bolt and washer in place, there is a little spacer around the washer to contact the face of the balancer.

    http://www.alangrovecomponents.com/i...er_Measure.jpg

    I measured the distance between the mounting bolt holes on the engine block and it matches the 5.43 inch bolt pattern measurement that Power Master gives for the AD244 alternator case, not a CS130 or CS130D, that are both 5.31 inch. See page 86 of the powermaster catalog for the AD244 case info and page 78 for the CS130 dimensions.

    http://www.powermastermotorsports.com/catalog.html#

    When I built my custom high mount alternator bracket, I chose a Tuff Stuff 8237A from Summit. It has an AD244 case and it plugged right in to the GM harness.

    https://www.summitracing.com/parts/tff-8237a
    Last edited by DaveS53; 02-06-2018 at 11:23 AM.

  28. #28

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    At this point I'll just wait until the bracket shows up and figure out what's what. I can always send the Alt back for the one you linked to.
    The LS3 is a Vette engine that has a 1.5" measurement from the face of the balancer to the bolt surface.
    I'm meeting up with the local car club guys this Friday for our usual lunch and will look at a few of their Vetts to see what their balancer and offsets look like.
    Thanks for the heads up Dave.
    Last edited by JimLev; 02-07-2018 at 01:06 AM.

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    Got the ICT alt bracket and other parts yesterday. Looks like with cutting a few of the spacers the pulley will align with the balancer. The engine is still sitting in the crate which has a 2x8 blocking most of the alt mounting position so I'll know for sure in a few weeks after the car arrives and I can pick the engine off the pallet.
    My '33 should be heading west next week.

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    Jim,
    Do you have the 376/430 or the 376/480 connect and cruise?
    Thanks,
    Andy

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    You don't want to cut spacers shorter unless you have a lathe to face the ends square. You just need a 551667-1 bracket. Also, see if the holes in the bracket, fit the mounting holes in the alternator. The picture from Summit shows an alternator with one through-hole and one threaded hole. That won't work, since both holes need to be through-holes.

    I kept the pallet for my crate engine, in case I needed to remove the engine and set it down some place. In my case, I built my car, drove it 1200 miles, then took it completely apart for painting. That pallet worked great to store the engine and trans until needed again.

    FWIW, the new GM crate LS engines still use the Corvette balancer, but they have changed the oil pan to one that comes in the Chevy SS. That pan may cause interference with the electric power steering and require a change to the muscle car pan that looks the same as the 2013 Corvette pan that came with my 2013 model crate LS3. Back then, the just sold the same engine that went into the Corvette. They even left the Corvette torque tube coupler attached to the crank.
    Last edited by DaveS53; 02-09-2018 at 12:27 PM.

  32. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by HVACMAN View Post
    Jim,
    Do you have the 376/430 or the 376/480 connect and cruise?
    Andy, 376/430 without CAT's and with BBK headers so it should put out a little more than 430.

    Dave, I can cut a spacer square and do have access to a lathe.
    The alt does have one threaded hole, not to difficult to drill them out if I have to, got a drill press.
    I'm not doing anything to these parts until the car arrives and I have the engine in it.

    I'm dumping the pallet as soon as possible, takes up a lot of room. I have a moving dolly that I can modify to hold the engine if needed. It's good for a 1000 Lbs, the engine is only 400 Lbs.

    Yes it does have the Vette balancer. Haven't heard of any issues with the crate engine oil pan and the PS, will find out in a few weeks. I don't know what the differences between the 2 oil pans are. My sump is in the rear.

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimLev View Post
    Andy, 376/430 without CAT's and with BBK headers so it should put out a little more than 430.

    Dave, I can cut a spacer square and do have access to a lathe.
    The alt does have one threaded hole, not to difficult to drill them out if I have to, got a drill press.
    I'm not doing anything to these parts until the car arrives and I have the engine in it.

    I'm dumping the pallet as soon as possible, takes up a lot of room. I have a moving dolly that I can modify to hold the engine if needed. It's good for a 1000 Lbs, the engine is only 400 Lbs.

    Yes it does have the Vette balancer. Haven't heard of any issues with the crate engine oil pan and the PS, will find out in a few weeks. I don't know what the differences between the 2 oil pans are. My sump is in the rear.
    Jim, I'll give you something to think about. I have the LS3 376/480 but it has the same LS oil pan. The oil pan and power steering motor are approximately 3/4 inch below the frame rails. I was initially ok with this after reading Wallace18'sIMG_0267.JPG Richey Build, but the closer I get to go carting the more I am rethinking this. I have talked myself into changing the oil pan to a Holley 302-1. This not only is 1" shallower but also moves the leading edge of the sump back almost 3", which allows you to rotate the power steering motor up. It will be a lot easier to do it now than having to do it in the car like I am.
    Thanks,
    Andy

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    Quote Originally Posted by HVACMAN View Post
    The oil pan and power steering motor are approximately 3/4 inch below the frame rails. I was initially ok with this after reading Wallace18'sIMG_0267.JPG Richey Build, but the closer I get to go carting the more I am rethinking this. I have talked myself into changing the oil pan to a Holley 302-1. This not only is 1" shallower but also moves the leading edge of the sump back almost 3", which allows you to rotate the power steering motor up. .
    I didn't want the pan on my Hemi below the frame either so I had to have a custom oil pan made for it. The power steering motor being part of the
    space conflict is something that I have been trying to get FF to change for awhile now. The Unisteer PS motor can be mounted on the firewall with a
    10* wedge behind it and it lands in a spot that doesn't conflict with anything. The wedge keeps the U-joints on each side of it from binding and the
    rest of the steering shafts path works out well. If you use the extra carrier from the LS application it works even better on some combos.
    Dale

  35. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by HVACMAN View Post
    Jim, I'll give you something to think about. I have the LS3 376/480 but it has the same LS oil pan. The oil pan and power steering motor are approximately 3/4 inch below the frame rails. I was initially ok with this after reading Wallace18'sIMG_0267.JPG Richey Build, but the closer I get to go carting the more I am rethinking this. I have talked myself into changing the oil pan to a Holley 302-1. This not only is 1" shallower but also moves the leading edge of the sump back almost 3", which allows you to rotate the power steering motor up. It will be a lot easier to do it now than having to do it in the car like I am.
    Ummm, I was OK with it too after reading Wallace18's post. Does the Holley 302-1 oil pan hold the same amount of oil? Can't make out much from your pic.

    Dale, not exactly sure what you are talking about, it sounds like a fix so I could use my existing oil pan.
    Got a few pics so I can understand everything?
    After reading your post a few times are you moving the PS motor and then using a rod down to the rack?

    Thanks guys.
    Last edited by JimLev; 02-12-2018 at 01:06 PM.

  36. #36
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    Just for comparison, the Corvette oil pan has a shallower sump, but it's a lot longer. Here are links that compare several models.

    https://www.improvedracing.com/tech/...dimensions.php

    http://www.stevesnovasite.com/forums...d.php?t=208618
    Last edited by DaveS53; 02-12-2018 at 01:14 PM.

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimLev View Post
    Ummm, I was OK with it too after reading Wallace18's post. Does the Holley 302-1 oil pan hold the same amount of oil? Can't make out much from your pic.

    Dale, not exactly sure what you are talking about, it sounds like a fix so I could use my existing oil pan.
    Got a few pics so I can understand everything?
    After reading your post a few times are you moving the PS motor and then using a rod down to the rack?

    Thanks guys.
    The Holley pan holds 5.5 qts.hly-302-1_hr_xl.jpgIMG_0265.JPGIMG_0264.JPG
    Last edited by HVACMAN; 02-12-2018 at 02:16 PM.
    Thanks,
    Andy

  38. #38
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    From the picture, it looks like the PS motor hits the sump. Is the Holley sump short enough that the motor will rotate to be in front of the sump? It's about 6 inches shorter than a Corvette pan.

  39. #39

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    Nov 2017
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    Placitas, NM
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    Thanks for all of the (bad?) info guys, always good to know before hand.
    Before I blow another $400 on an oil pan I'll wait until I have the car here. I was told the car shipped today, still waiting to hear from the driver. Estimated delivery is Feb 24th.

    My Lokar shifter arrived today, nice piece of engineering. One small issue, the lower cable mounting bracket is held in place on the tranny by 2 supplied M8 bolts thru 2 slots in the bracket. The bolts won't fit thru the slots.
    The directions call out M6 bolts, however the tranny uses M8 not M6 bolts.

    UPDATE:
    Spoke with Lokar, they sent the wrong bracket, new one is being sent today.
    Last edited by JimLev; 02-13-2018 at 10:27 AM. Reason: Update on bracket

  40. #40

    Join Date
    Nov 2017
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    Placitas, NM
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveS53 View Post
    From the picture, it looks like the PS motor hits the sump. Is the Holley sump short enough that the motor will rotate to be in front of the sump? It's about 6 inches shorter than a Corvette pan.
    Dave, looks like the Holley sump will allow the PS motor to be rotated up more and be above the bottom of the sump and frame rails.

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