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Thread: Serial Number Location on a MkII

  1. #1
    mburger's Avatar
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    Serial Number Location on a MkII

    Hey folks.
    First, I apologize as this question has probably been asked a thousand times but I did some searching on the forum but didn't find my answer. I don't want to look lazy and post the same questions folks have been asking for 15 years but I guess that's what I'm doing.

    I am looking for the build number on my MkII.

    I bought my MkII in May of 2017 from a consignment dealer. The previous owner provided the dealership with a dozen self typed information sheets on the car. The VIN of the donor for the drive train, paint color codes, where it was built and some tech info etc.
    He listed the "Body Number" as 2989 but he also listed the "Body Number" as D062101R2 which I can see on the body at the trunk lid opening.
    I am assuming my build number/serial number ends in 2989 but not sure.
    The car was built by Matt Moore Performance in Oak Harbor Ohio in July 2002.
    It was registered in OH as a 2002 Assembled Vehicle given the VIN of DPS65COBRA5286302. Currently registered in FL as the same.
    I get where the COBRA65 came from and I am assuming where the 302 came from so I thought maybe the FFR serial 4 digit was 5286 but it could also possibly be 2989.
    I'm not sure where to look on the car for the official FFR number.

    Mark
    Mark
    Mk1, Frame #1929 Complete restoration/upgrade. BP 347 with Edelbrock PF4 439/420. 4 link with coilovers. 8.8 3.55, 15” Halibrand, New beefed up T5 w/short throw shifter, Power 4 wheel disc brakes, Custom original style steering wheel, shaft and boss, Heat/AC, Heated seats, PPW wipers w/washers, Forte’s throttle linkage, RT trunk hoop mod, Pusher cooling fans, full LED lighting, custom headrests, 5 point seat belts with sub pass through, Speedhut GPS gauges, battery drop box in trunk, LED courtesy lights, Breeze trunk cubby kit.

  2. #2
    Not a waxer Jeff Kleiner's Avatar
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    Probably welded inside the driver's end of the rectangular tube that runs side to side behind the cockpit. I'm betting that it's 2989 which would be about right in sequence for 2002.

    Jeff

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    It is not easy to see the number in the tube, it is done with weld bead, but 2989 sounds right. My mkll is 4874 and it is a late 2003 kit.
    David W

  4. #4
    mburger's Avatar
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    Thank you Jeff and David - much appreciated!
    Mark
    Mk1, Frame #1929 Complete restoration/upgrade. BP 347 with Edelbrock PF4 439/420. 4 link with coilovers. 8.8 3.55, 15” Halibrand, New beefed up T5 w/short throw shifter, Power 4 wheel disc brakes, Custom original style steering wheel, shaft and boss, Heat/AC, Heated seats, PPW wipers w/washers, Forte’s throttle linkage, RT trunk hoop mod, Pusher cooling fans, full LED lighting, custom headrests, 5 point seat belts with sub pass through, Speedhut GPS gauges, battery drop box in trunk, LED courtesy lights, Breeze trunk cubby kit.

  5. #5
    Senior Member CraigS's Avatar
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    As i remember it that number welded inside the tube was something that FFR used until an MSO and Vin plate were made. I don't think it means anything to anyone but FFR. My MkII, which the owner said was sold to him in 04 just before the MkIIIs came out is 5353. My serial # on the FFR VIN plate and my title is FFR5353k. Is this -DPS65COBRA5286302- the serial number on your title? Perhaps Ohio and the original owner came up w/ that? Some states, and the computer systems, really like the normal 17 digit format so that could have been made up simply to get all 17 places filled in. The 5286 portion and a 2002 build jives w/ my # and a 2004 build.
    FFR MkII, 408W, Tremec TKO 500, 2015 IRS, DA QA1s, Forte front bar, APE hardtop.

  6. #6
    mburger's Avatar
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    The only thing I see on the square tube above my knee is the OH assigned VIN tag. They put one in the engine bay as well. The hunt continues!
    OH_VIN.JPG
    Mark
    Mk1, Frame #1929 Complete restoration/upgrade. BP 347 with Edelbrock PF4 439/420. 4 link with coilovers. 8.8 3.55, 15” Halibrand, New beefed up T5 w/short throw shifter, Power 4 wheel disc brakes, Custom original style steering wheel, shaft and boss, Heat/AC, Heated seats, PPW wipers w/washers, Forte’s throttle linkage, RT trunk hoop mod, Pusher cooling fans, full LED lighting, custom headrests, 5 point seat belts with sub pass through, Speedhut GPS gauges, battery drop box in trunk, LED courtesy lights, Breeze trunk cubby kit.

  7. #7
    Not a waxer Jeff Kleiner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mburger View Post
    The only thing I see on the square tube above my knee is the OH assigned VIN tag. They put one in the engine bay as well. The hunt continues!
    OH_VIN.JPG
    No, not there (although that is the correct location on a Mk3 or 4). Your Mk2 will have it welded inside the tube behind the cockpit. You have to remove the left rear wheel to see it---and even then it may still be a challenge.

    Jeff

  8. #8
    mburger's Avatar
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    Oh ok thanks Jeff.
    Mark
    Mk1, Frame #1929 Complete restoration/upgrade. BP 347 with Edelbrock PF4 439/420. 4 link with coilovers. 8.8 3.55, 15” Halibrand, New beefed up T5 w/short throw shifter, Power 4 wheel disc brakes, Custom original style steering wheel, shaft and boss, Heat/AC, Heated seats, PPW wipers w/washers, Forte’s throttle linkage, RT trunk hoop mod, Pusher cooling fans, full LED lighting, custom headrests, 5 point seat belts with sub pass through, Speedhut GPS gauges, battery drop box in trunk, LED courtesy lights, Breeze trunk cubby kit.

  9. #9
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    On the MK2's and earlier, the number welded inside the frame crossmember is a "Frame Number", and it is not the MSO number. The frame numbers started at 0001, but the Mso numbers started at 1001. So the frame number is usually, but not always, approximately 1000 below the MSO number.

    My FFR 3319 has a frame number of 22xx. It caused quite a problem at the inspection station and I had to get a notarized letter from FFR that stated"FFR frame number was sold with FFR MSO number.

    Derald.
    Last edited by Derald Rice; 01-29-2018 at 12:30 PM.

  10. #10
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    I had a similar problem with my MK2. I finally engraved the correct MSO number on the frame which made the state happy!
    Larry

  11. #11
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    MBurger, Let us know when and where you find the number, maybe send a photo of the location. I just purchased a Mark II that actually looks just like yours and I'm also looking for the chassis number on mine. Thanks,
    Sam

  12. #12
    mburger's Avatar
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    Will do Sam. I just bought new tires and when the wheels come off for that, I will look where Jeff suggested the number should be. Not sure if it’ll be legible but I’ll take pics of what is there when the left rear wheel is off.
    Last edited by mburger; 02-17-2018 at 06:18 PM.
    Mark
    Mk1, Frame #1929 Complete restoration/upgrade. BP 347 with Edelbrock PF4 439/420. 4 link with coilovers. 8.8 3.55, 15” Halibrand, New beefed up T5 w/short throw shifter, Power 4 wheel disc brakes, Custom original style steering wheel, shaft and boss, Heat/AC, Heated seats, PPW wipers w/washers, Forte’s throttle linkage, RT trunk hoop mod, Pusher cooling fans, full LED lighting, custom headrests, 5 point seat belts with sub pass through, Speedhut GPS gauges, battery drop box in trunk, LED courtesy lights, Breeze trunk cubby kit.

  13. #13
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    Mburger, I found my chassis/frame number, Mk2 #2033, just where Jeff said it would be. Took the left rear wheel off and had to stick my head up in the wheel well but found it just inside the opening in the rectangular cross member. It's hard to read since it's a set of numbers written with a welder but it's there. I had to scrape off a little rust and paint, and used my finger and a rag to spread some motor oil on the area and wipe it down to improve the resolution, then took a photo with my phone with the flash on. Pretty easy to find it once the wheel's off. I'll try to attach the photo but I'm not sure if that feature works for me on this site.
    Sam
    image001.jpg

  14. #14
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    PS - Somehow the photo was rotated 90 degrees counterclockwise when I posted it. The welded number is actually on the horizontal, parallel to the floor

  15. #15
    mburger's Avatar
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    Shelbysam - thanks for the pic. With the location Jeff provided and your pic as well as input from everyone else, I should be able to confirm my FFR#. I have my tires, and I'm waiting for delivery of the Goodyear billboard permanent lettering before the wheels come off for mounting.
    Mark
    Mk1, Frame #1929 Complete restoration/upgrade. BP 347 with Edelbrock PF4 439/420. 4 link with coilovers. 8.8 3.55, 15” Halibrand, New beefed up T5 w/short throw shifter, Power 4 wheel disc brakes, Custom original style steering wheel, shaft and boss, Heat/AC, Heated seats, PPW wipers w/washers, Forte’s throttle linkage, RT trunk hoop mod, Pusher cooling fans, full LED lighting, custom headrests, 5 point seat belts with sub pass through, Speedhut GPS gauges, battery drop box in trunk, LED courtesy lights, Breeze trunk cubby kit.

  16. #16
    mburger's Avatar
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    My left rear wheel is off for new tires. This is a pic of the number in the square tube. I can't tell if it's 1929 or perhaps 2929 or ??
    Again the car was completed in July of 2002 (in Oak Harbor Ohio) for reference. I'm not sure if FFR can give me any info on what state either of those numbers was sold to.
    IMG_0532.JPG
    Mark
    Mk1, Frame #1929 Complete restoration/upgrade. BP 347 with Edelbrock PF4 439/420. 4 link with coilovers. 8.8 3.55, 15” Halibrand, New beefed up T5 w/short throw shifter, Power 4 wheel disc brakes, Custom original style steering wheel, shaft and boss, Heat/AC, Heated seats, PPW wipers w/washers, Forte’s throttle linkage, RT trunk hoop mod, Pusher cooling fans, full LED lighting, custom headrests, 5 point seat belts with sub pass through, Speedhut GPS gauges, battery drop box in trunk, LED courtesy lights, Breeze trunk cubby kit.

  17. #17
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    Does the name Matt Moore ring any bells with you ?

    He was a dealer in the Oak Harbor area in 2002 time frame, and went under the name of Moore Performance. Don't know how many he built, or if yours was one of them.
    Last edited by Derald Rice; 03-15-2018 at 03:00 PM.

  18. #18
    mburger's Avatar
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    Yup - Matt Moore built mine. Still has his windshield logo on it.
    I fired off an email to FFR with the picture to see if they had the records and what if anything they could share to confirm the number.
    For example, if they said #1929 or #2929 was sold to Ohio, that would help me figure out what the number is.
    Not sure why FFR would put the SN on the frame here. It's like an Easter Egg in application programming.
    Last edited by mburger; 03-15-2018 at 03:45 PM.
    Mark
    Mk1, Frame #1929 Complete restoration/upgrade. BP 347 with Edelbrock PF4 439/420. 4 link with coilovers. 8.8 3.55, 15” Halibrand, New beefed up T5 w/short throw shifter, Power 4 wheel disc brakes, Custom original style steering wheel, shaft and boss, Heat/AC, Heated seats, PPW wipers w/washers, Forte’s throttle linkage, RT trunk hoop mod, Pusher cooling fans, full LED lighting, custom headrests, 5 point seat belts with sub pass through, Speedhut GPS gauges, battery drop box in trunk, LED courtesy lights, Breeze trunk cubby kit.

  19. #19
    Senior Member rich grsc's Avatar
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    At first I was sure it was 2929, but after looking again I think 1929.

  20. #20
    Not a waxer Jeff Kleiner's Avatar
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    Based on the timeframe you mention I'd bet on 2929... I worked on John Phillips' Mk2 #3422 which was delivered mid 2002. If yours was completed in late '02 being produced a few hundred cars ahead of John's, lets say the latter part of '01 or early '02, sounds reasonable. I do not think that #1929 would have been a Mk2. Are you sure that it is indeed a 2? Easy giveaways are the tubular backbone through the trans tunnel and the round tubing footbox protection that runs along the front and outside of the floors.

    Jeff

  21. #21
    mburger's Avatar
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    All I know is that it was completed in July of 2002. Am I SURE it's a 2? Right now no! I woke up this morning thinking it was a 2.
    I will get a pic of the car from underneath while on the lift. I KNOW the frame is 4 inch tube front to back. I also think FFR started at 1000 correct?
    I'm leaning towards 2929 but.... I look at the weld bead, and I have welding experience, that making a "2" in that area could be difficult. It's like signing your name on a tablet for a contractor or anywhere you have to sign your name with your finger. It doesn't look like your name.
    Mark
    Mk1, Frame #1929 Complete restoration/upgrade. BP 347 with Edelbrock PF4 439/420. 4 link with coilovers. 8.8 3.55, 15” Halibrand, New beefed up T5 w/short throw shifter, Power 4 wheel disc brakes, Custom original style steering wheel, shaft and boss, Heat/AC, Heated seats, PPW wipers w/washers, Forte’s throttle linkage, RT trunk hoop mod, Pusher cooling fans, full LED lighting, custom headrests, 5 point seat belts with sub pass through, Speedhut GPS gauges, battery drop box in trunk, LED courtesy lights, Breeze trunk cubby kit.

  22. #22
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    Have you tried to reach out to Matt Moore to see if he has records of the cars that he built ??

  23. #23
    mburger's Avatar
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    I have not, but I will. I was reluctant because it has been so long.
    Mark
    Mk1, Frame #1929 Complete restoration/upgrade. BP 347 with Edelbrock PF4 439/420. 4 link with coilovers. 8.8 3.55, 15” Halibrand, New beefed up T5 w/short throw shifter, Power 4 wheel disc brakes, Custom original style steering wheel, shaft and boss, Heat/AC, Heated seats, PPW wipers w/washers, Forte’s throttle linkage, RT trunk hoop mod, Pusher cooling fans, full LED lighting, custom headrests, 5 point seat belts with sub pass through, Speedhut GPS gauges, battery drop box in trunk, LED courtesy lights, Breeze trunk cubby kit.

  24. #24
    Not a waxer Jeff Kleiner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mburger View Post
    All I know is that it was completed in July of 2002. Am I SURE it's a 2? Right now no! I woke up this morning thinking it was a 2.
    I will get a pic of the car from underneath while on the lift. I KNOW the frame is 4 inch tube front to back. I also think FFR started at 1000 correct?
    I'm leaning towards 2929 but.... I look at the weld bead, and I have welding experience, that making a "2" in that area could be difficult. It's like signing your name on a tablet for a contractor or anywhere you have to sign your name with your finger. It doesn't look like your name.
    Looking back at some old info, dates and numbers I'm beginning to think that you may actually have a Mk1 or perhaps what is often called a "tweener" (a several month long run of cars between Mk1 and Mk2) which incorporated some but not all Mk2 features...things such as the curved trunk bar or footbox tubes but not the full backbone. Looks like full blown Mk2 production began in the Spring of 2002 with serial numbers higher than 3300. Doesn't really matter; you're enjoying your car no matter what but it's interesting to unearth the history!

    Jeff

  25. #25
    mburger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Derald Rice View Post
    Have you tried to reach out to Matt Moore to see if he has records of the cars that he built ??
    I called Matt Moore today. Very nice guy and still building cars in Oak Harbor OH. He doesn't have the records from my build but remembers the car. He built it as a spec car and brought it to Ford's 100th Anniversary on June 16th 2003 at the Ford World Headquarters in Dearborn Michigan where it was sold to a guy named Fred in Michigan. Fred has a place in Florida and he kept the car here. He sold it through a consignment dealer to me. Matt seemed certain it was a MkII because of the door panels. I sent FFR an email with the pic of the number hoping they could let me know what the car is based on sale records to Moore Performance.
    Mark
    Mk1, Frame #1929 Complete restoration/upgrade. BP 347 with Edelbrock PF4 439/420. 4 link with coilovers. 8.8 3.55, 15” Halibrand, New beefed up T5 w/short throw shifter, Power 4 wheel disc brakes, Custom original style steering wheel, shaft and boss, Heat/AC, Heated seats, PPW wipers w/washers, Forte’s throttle linkage, RT trunk hoop mod, Pusher cooling fans, full LED lighting, custom headrests, 5 point seat belts with sub pass through, Speedhut GPS gauges, battery drop box in trunk, LED courtesy lights, Breeze trunk cubby kit.

  26. #26
    mburger's Avatar
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    Never knew there were "tweeners". Good info. Yeah it is interesting to unearth the history of the car. Based on your info that MkII production started at #3300, it may be a tweener. See, I could have a "rare" FFR car!
    Mark
    Mk1, Frame #1929 Complete restoration/upgrade. BP 347 with Edelbrock PF4 439/420. 4 link with coilovers. 8.8 3.55, 15” Halibrand, New beefed up T5 w/short throw shifter, Power 4 wheel disc brakes, Custom original style steering wheel, shaft and boss, Heat/AC, Heated seats, PPW wipers w/washers, Forte’s throttle linkage, RT trunk hoop mod, Pusher cooling fans, full LED lighting, custom headrests, 5 point seat belts with sub pass through, Speedhut GPS gauges, battery drop box in trunk, LED courtesy lights, Breeze trunk cubby kit.

  27. #27
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    My 3319 is a tweener. But it does'nt know it, and it don't matter. I keep feeding it new parts every once in a while, and its happy.

  28. #28
    mburger's Avatar
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    I'm going with #2929.
    Factory Five got back to me...
    Unfortunately, when they upgraded their computer system in 2005, they lost all records prior to 2005.
    And I also continue to throw parts (and money) at the car. Up next is new rear lower control arms and Speedhut gauges.
    Mark
    Mk1, Frame #1929 Complete restoration/upgrade. BP 347 with Edelbrock PF4 439/420. 4 link with coilovers. 8.8 3.55, 15” Halibrand, New beefed up T5 w/short throw shifter, Power 4 wheel disc brakes, Custom original style steering wheel, shaft and boss, Heat/AC, Heated seats, PPW wipers w/washers, Forte’s throttle linkage, RT trunk hoop mod, Pusher cooling fans, full LED lighting, custom headrests, 5 point seat belts with sub pass through, Speedhut GPS gauges, battery drop box in trunk, LED courtesy lights, Breeze trunk cubby kit.

  29. #29
    Member Frank Messina's Avatar
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    Derald has it correct re frame and MSO numbers from that time frame. The frame number on my 4440 was something like 3335 IIRC. FWIW
    Frank
    FFR 4440 - V8, Manual Trans, Htr, WSW, IRS. I wouldn't change a thing.

  30. #30
    mburger's Avatar
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    Since FFR lost all records prior to 2005, and Matt Moore did not keep them, I am posting a few pics that were taken during the pre-purchase inspection. They may not help much in determining if I have an Mk1, tweener or MkII and while it really doesn't matter, it would still be nice to know one way or the other. My car will be back on the lift tomorrow for new rear springs so I can take specific areas if need be.

    CARS 5-8-17 066.JPG
    CARS 5-8-17 067.JPG
    CARS 5-8-17 068.JPG
    Last edited by mburger; 03-18-2018 at 10:26 AM.
    Mark
    Mk1, Frame #1929 Complete restoration/upgrade. BP 347 with Edelbrock PF4 439/420. 4 link with coilovers. 8.8 3.55, 15” Halibrand, New beefed up T5 w/short throw shifter, Power 4 wheel disc brakes, Custom original style steering wheel, shaft and boss, Heat/AC, Heated seats, PPW wipers w/washers, Forte’s throttle linkage, RT trunk hoop mod, Pusher cooling fans, full LED lighting, custom headrests, 5 point seat belts with sub pass through, Speedhut GPS gauges, battery drop box in trunk, LED courtesy lights, Breeze trunk cubby kit.

  31. #31
    Not a waxer Jeff Kleiner's Avatar
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    That answers it! No tunnel backbone, no footbox crash bars, flat floor=pure Mk1 (of course back then they weren't called Mk1 or anything else other than a Factory Five roadster ). They were, and are still, great little cars that started the adventure we all now share!

    Jeff

  32. #32
    mburger's Avatar
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    Mystery solved! Thanks Jeff!!

    Oh, lastly, since we now know it's a Mk1, the frame number must be 1929 since adding 1001 (or so) would put the MSO in the Mk1 production range.
    Adding the 1001 or so to frame 2929 would put it well into the MkII production run, which we know it isn't.
    (unless I'm misunderstanding that)

    Thanks again everyone for the help as always!
    Last edited by mburger; 03-18-2018 at 11:12 AM.
    Mark
    Mk1, Frame #1929 Complete restoration/upgrade. BP 347 with Edelbrock PF4 439/420. 4 link with coilovers. 8.8 3.55, 15” Halibrand, New beefed up T5 w/short throw shifter, Power 4 wheel disc brakes, Custom original style steering wheel, shaft and boss, Heat/AC, Heated seats, PPW wipers w/washers, Forte’s throttle linkage, RT trunk hoop mod, Pusher cooling fans, full LED lighting, custom headrests, 5 point seat belts with sub pass through, Speedhut GPS gauges, battery drop box in trunk, LED courtesy lights, Breeze trunk cubby kit.

  33. #33
    Member Frank Messina's Avatar
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    Given that production was only gradually increasing at that time (starting at 1 in 1998) would put a 1929 frame # at early 2001. That would be well before MKII features began creeping in early 2002. Like Jeff said, nothing wrong with a MkI and certainly nothing to hold your nose over. Sometimes we get overly obsessed with having the latest for bragging purposes. Make yours yours and love it. I am still thrilled to death every time I take my MKII out and wouldn't change a thing. Aside from being a little too far over the hill, I'm not sure I could do another one this good.
    Frank
    FFR 4440 - V8, Manual Trans, Htr, WSW, IRS. I wouldn't change a thing.

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Messina View Post
    Sometimes we get overly obsessed with having the latest for bragging purposes. Make yours yours and love it. I am still thrilled to death every time I take my MKII out and wouldn't change a thing. Aside from being a little too far over the hill, I'm not sure I could do another one this good.
    Frank
    I have had wandering thoughts about building another, but Like frank said, I don't know what I would do differently.

    And late last night I found this, so even if it is late to the party, it's interesting reading the changes from the MK1 to the MK2, as told by Factory Five:

    http://www.ffcars.com/FAQ/ffrhistory.html

  35. #35
    mburger's Avatar
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    Thanks Frank and Derald. Derald nice link. While I have an account over there, for some reason I never venture over. I probably should to search things like this.
    I love my car and have made many improvements and continue to do so. Some day it will be my son's car and he won't care if it's a Mk1, 2 (or 8 by then???) It'll be dad's car that's now his.
    Mark
    Mk1, Frame #1929 Complete restoration/upgrade. BP 347 with Edelbrock PF4 439/420. 4 link with coilovers. 8.8 3.55, 15” Halibrand, New beefed up T5 w/short throw shifter, Power 4 wheel disc brakes, Custom original style steering wheel, shaft and boss, Heat/AC, Heated seats, PPW wipers w/washers, Forte’s throttle linkage, RT trunk hoop mod, Pusher cooling fans, full LED lighting, custom headrests, 5 point seat belts with sub pass through, Speedhut GPS gauges, battery drop box in trunk, LED courtesy lights, Breeze trunk cubby kit.

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