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Thread: Fuel and brake lines

  1. #1
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    Fuel and brake lines

    I have read on here about the safety concerns with running fuel and brake lines through the transmission tunnel but am still considering going this route. I would protect them appropriately if I do. My question is, are there sanctioning rules forbidding this for autocross, track events or drag racing? I would put the lines in a heavy trough running the length of the tunnel. My build plan includes a driveshaft hoop. I am more concerned about road debris with the standard routing and ride height.
    MkIV complete kit #9259, Coyote, TKO600, IRS, Wilwoods x 4, many parts from Breeze, Forte, Russ's Garage and North Racecars
    17" Bullit style wheels, custom Kirkey seats, mid shift conversion, drop trunk, KRC power steering, Forte Hyd. clutch and slave, manual brakes
    overall build plan: build it to drive, not polish and black it out wherever possible, paint will be some shade of dark cherry

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    Seasoned Citizen NAZ's Avatar
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    sbhunter, if you want to drag race your car you really should spring $10 for the NHRA Rule Book as this sanctioning body has a plethora of rules to comply with even down to the valve stems you can run. To answer your question, no you cannot run fuel or brake lines thru the tunnel and fuel lines cannot be run thru the driver's compartment either.

    Sanctioning body rules notwithstanding, you should reconsider running fuel and brake lines thru the tunnel -- this is a profoundly bad idea. I've experienced two driveshaft explosions and the damage this can cause is impressive.

  3. #3
    Senior Member edwardb's Avatar
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    Standard practice for Roadster builds has been to mount the fuel and brake lines on the outside of the 4-inch tubes up as high as you can reasonably get them. Road debris isn't an issue. I wouldn't route the lines inside the transmission tunnel for that reason alone. DD's have similar exposure for these lines on the bottom of the vehicle, and they typically will see a wider variation in road conditions. You're not planning off-roading, gravel roads, etc.? Right? If you really feel strongly about it, you could use spring wrap on the brake lines (often called armored lines) like this: https://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-220266. But honestly I don't think it's necessary.

    I've personally recommended against putting the lines inside the tunnel, and so have others. All three of my Roadster builds were done on the outside and it's easy and straightforward to do. Interestingly, the instructions for the Gen 3 Coupe I'm working on right now say to put the fuel and brake lines inside the transmission tunnel.
    Build 1: Mk3 Roadster #5125. Sold 11/08/2014. Build 2: Mk4 Roadster #7750. Sold 04/10/2017. Build Thread
    Build 3: Mk4 Roadster 20th Anniversary #8674. Sold 09/07/2020. Build Thread and Video. Build 4: Gen 3 Type 65 Coupe #59. Gen 3 Coyote. Legal 03/04/2020. Build Thread and Video
    Build 5: 35 Hot Rod Truck #138. LS3 and 4L65E auto. Rcvd 01/05/2021. Legal 04/20/2023. Build Thread. Sold 11/9/2023.

  4. #4

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    I agree with everything everyone else said. Now if you were building a new GEN 3 Coupe you would have no choice. Its a flat bottom chassis and your brake and fuel lines would be the lowest point.
    Mike

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    Quote Originally Posted by sbhunter View Post

    My question is, are there sanctioning rules forbidding this for autocross, track events or drag racing?
    Yes - NHRA general regs section 20 pg 5: "Fuel lines may not be routed in the driveshaft tunnel."


    http://promod.nhra.com/userfiles/fil...en.%20Regs.pdf

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    Huh???

    So it's safer to have brake, fuel and electric lines outside the main frame tubes? I can appreciate the concern of catastrophic events from a driveshaft failure but that's what driveshaft safety loops are for. Same thing with scattershields but seldom do we hear about flywheels and clutches exploding. I have seen the results from a driveshaft failure on a Superformance car, the lines all along the inside rails didn't get hit but the frame did.

    I'm listening but still planning to run down the transmission tunnel with the main battery cable along the passenger side frame tube and brake & fuel along the driver's side. I will have driveshaft containment. All lines will go through the rear 4" crossmember in through-tubes welded in place.

    Any logic and/or clarity that the group can provide will be appreciated. Seems that FFR has changed their directions with the Gen 3 Coupe.

    Jim

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    I should clarify that I do not plan on professionally drag racing just the occasional “run what you brung” nights. If the gen 3 coupe requires it, it surely isn’t banned by sanctions or rules. I would never run them inside the compartment. I had a vw bug blow a brake line and cover me with brake fluid years ago. The vw factory lines ran down the inside of the body.
    MkIV complete kit #9259, Coyote, TKO600, IRS, Wilwoods x 4, many parts from Breeze, Forte, Russ's Garage and North Racecars
    17" Bullit style wheels, custom Kirkey seats, mid shift conversion, drop trunk, KRC power steering, Forte Hyd. clutch and slave, manual brakes
    overall build plan: build it to drive, not polish and black it out wherever possible, paint will be some shade of dark cherry

  8. #8

    Steve >> aka: GoDadGo
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    SBHunter,

    Do what makes you happy; however, just make sure things are safe, neat and tidy.
    If form follows function, then logic should rule the day making things easy to work on.

    Steve

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    Quote Originally Posted by sbhunter View Post

    it surely isn’t banned by sanctions or rules.

    Surely you didn't waste everyone's time asking a question you didn't care what the answer was???


    Run it where ever it makes you happy.

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    Mike223, thank you. That reference to the nhra rule book is precisely what I was asking for. I was looking for a written rule not an opinion. I will run them along the frame tubes as per normal. I absolutely do care. That is why I asked.
    MkIV complete kit #9259, Coyote, TKO600, IRS, Wilwoods x 4, many parts from Breeze, Forte, Russ's Garage and North Racecars
    17" Bullit style wheels, custom Kirkey seats, mid shift conversion, drop trunk, KRC power steering, Forte Hyd. clutch and slave, manual brakes
    overall build plan: build it to drive, not polish and black it out wherever possible, paint will be some shade of dark cherry

  11. #11
    Seasoned Citizen NAZ's Avatar
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    Glad to see you reconsidered how to run your lines. Just for clarification, the NHRA rules apply to all competitors not just the professional categories. If you visit NHRARacer.com you can find a copy of the 2018 General Regulations (now Section 21) that will provide you details on what you need to run at an NHRA track. NHRA affiliated tracks are required to enforce NHRA safety rules at all events, even the Friday night run what you brung events. I know some locations are lax on this requirement but if you build your car in compliance with the rules you can be assured you will pass tech.

    Good luck with your build.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by sbhunter View Post

    That reference to the nhra rule book is precisely what I was asking for. I was looking for a written rule not an opinion.

    Perfect - that's precisely what I tried to provide.

  13. #13
    Not a waxer Jeff Kleiner's Avatar
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    Of course if you ever run an NHRA track the construction of your roll bars will preclude you being able to make a full pass so brake line location will become a moot point. Just sayin'

    Jeff

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    Here's the only rule I can find in the N.A.S.A. regulation for the Factory Five Challenge Series.

    7.7.7 Fuel Lines Any fuel lines or hoses that pass through the cockpit compartment must be metal or metal braided as well as securely fastened and safely routed.

    I did not find any reference to fuel lines and routing in the N.A.S.A. regulations for ST-1 to 4 classifications. That I didn't find anything doesn't mean it's not there.

    I'm not trying to argue with the collective logic and N.H.R.A. rules but if not drag racing then the next closest set of safety rules are probably worth considering.

    Jim

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Kleiner View Post

    Of course if you ever run an NHRA track the construction of your roll bars will preclude you being able to make a full pass so brake line location will become a moot point. Just sayin'

    lol - also true...


    But he didn't ask that question yet.



    1-5/8" minimum, within 1" of the door, add door bar... - hard to work around on a conventional roadster, and be "strictly legal" below "about" 13.49 in the quarter mile...


    It's exhausting.



    But wait - all you need is leathers and a helmet on a bike...

  16. #16
    Senior Member edwardb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim1855 View Post
    ...Seems that FFR has changed their directions with the Gen 3 Coupe.

    Jim
    I wouldn't say that. As Mike mentioned, it's because of the Gen 3 Coupe chassis. The space frame is completely flat on the bottom. It wouldn't be possible to get from the fuel tank to the engine compartment without going under the frame, making the fuel line the lowest point in one or more places. Same for the brake line going to the rear brakes. That leaves two options. Taking the fuel and brake lines through the cockpit or the transmission tunnel. And I think we all agree the cockpit is not an option.
    Last edited by edwardb; 02-10-2018 at 08:08 PM.
    Build 1: Mk3 Roadster #5125. Sold 11/08/2014. Build 2: Mk4 Roadster #7750. Sold 04/10/2017. Build Thread
    Build 3: Mk4 Roadster 20th Anniversary #8674. Sold 09/07/2020. Build Thread and Video. Build 4: Gen 3 Type 65 Coupe #59. Gen 3 Coyote. Legal 03/04/2020. Build Thread and Video
    Build 5: 35 Hot Rod Truck #138. LS3 and 4L65E auto. Rcvd 01/05/2021. Legal 04/20/2023. Build Thread. Sold 11/9/2023.

  17. #17
    Seasoned Citizen NAZ's Avatar
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    So for those who are considering running brake lines and or fuel lines near your driveshaft I suggest you seriously consider running them through A513 Type-5 DOM tubing or 4130N tubing with a minimum wall thickness of .120" the full length of run near the driveshaft. At least you'll have some armor to help protect against catastrophic failure of your driveshaft. Even utilizing a driveshaft loop is not adequate protection against a u-joint failure at speed. Having experienced two driveshafts explode I am well aware of how much damage these things can do and at speed don't count on them to just rattle around in a safety loop -- they can come apart and send ballistic projectiles in various directions that can easily penetrate fluid lines.

    Remember good judgement come from experiences derived from bad judgement and I'm hoping some of you might learn from my mistakes without having to experience them yourself.

  18. #18
    Mark Eaton's Avatar
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    I am using a Holley Sniper EFI which comes with 40 ft of Vapor Guard fuel hose for the supply and return lines. In the Holley website video they use this to set up a Camaro, no rigid or metal lines. In the instruction manual they make no mention of using anything other than the Vapor Guard hose except for a single "Danger" warning on page 6 which simply states that for "under vehicle runs rigid fuel line tubing should be used". Maybe I'm answering my own question but does this mean I should use SS or another metal line for under the vehicle part of the fuel line?

    Mark
    MK4 #9130 , complete kit, arrived 8/10/2017, Street Legal 2/14/2020.
    DART SHP 347, EFI, TKO600, IRS
    http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...n-Build-Thread

  19. #19
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    You hear this in these forums all the time. "The great thing about these cars is you can build them your own way. Build it the way U want" Now, maybe I'm getting old and I'm loosing my patience for trivial things? My thinkin is, if the fuel and brake line installation location specified in the Factory Five build instructions has worked for about 10,000 past builders, and there's no good reason to put these lines in the transmission tunnel, then why the heck would you consider all the extra work of welding in pipe shielding protection? But if that's what you want to do to " make the build your own", knock your socks off.

    Looking forward to future threads about reversing the gas tank and placing the filler cap on the drivers side, or the flush mounted aircraft rivets holding the floor to reduce airodynamic drag.
    Sorry, I'll get back to my FOX News now.
    Last edited by Truthbetold18; 02-11-2018 at 02:26 AM.

  20. #20
    Curmudgeon mikeinatlanta's Avatar
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    Mine run through the tunnel and are fine. Fine because they are properly protected by a secondary plate that is part of the driveshaft hoop system. My roadster is also flat bottom so in the tunnel is the best option. Inside the frame rail is also illegal and a bad idea and same for fuel lines inside the car on a street legal ride.

    You can run in the tunnel, just give them an appropriate level of protection. For drive shaft protection you are looking at .25" mild steel. Same for half shaft hoops, they need to be .25" steel. If you do this the inspection won't be an issue.
    MKII "Little Boy". 432CI all aluminum Windsor. .699 solid roller, DA Koni shocks, aluminum IRS, Straight cut dog ring T-5, 13" four piston Brembos, Bogart wheels. BOOM!

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    Clearly there are strong opinions on this topic. As mentioned above, the standard issue bolted together rollbar would get kicked out by any nhra official wanting to enforce rules. The rules, as I have just read for the first time, also prohibit fuel lines or manifold bodies within the bellhousing/ flywheel area which would include the firewall. It also discusses the fuel tank being fully encapsulated by steel tubing. My question has been answered. Thank you to those that offered references. Truthbetold18, I can’t help myself, I tried hard not to respond to your post. If that is your opinion and attitude, please sell your car and buy a Camry. That is what most people do. I believe there is an opinions section elsewhere in this forum.
    MkIV complete kit #9259, Coyote, TKO600, IRS, Wilwoods x 4, many parts from Breeze, Forte, Russ's Garage and North Racecars
    17" Bullit style wheels, custom Kirkey seats, mid shift conversion, drop trunk, KRC power steering, Forte Hyd. clutch and slave, manual brakes
    overall build plan: build it to drive, not polish and black it out wherever possible, paint will be some shade of dark cherry

  22. #22
    Mark Eaton's Avatar
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    sbhunter,

    You asked an honest and legitimate question and I'm glad you did. You got some helpful answers and some "cranky" answers. What I still need to know is did anybody see my question about the Holley Sniper EFI? Am I ok running the kits Vapor Guard hose under the Chassis in the "usual" location, or should I use some type of rigid/SS lines as it passes underneath?

    Thanks and I don't mind if the answers are cranky, just let it out...
    MK4 #9130 , complete kit, arrived 8/10/2017, Street Legal 2/14/2020.
    DART SHP 347, EFI, TKO600, IRS
    http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...n-Build-Thread

  23. #23
    Curmudgeon mikeinatlanta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Eaton View Post
    sbhunter,

    You asked an honest and legitimate question and I'm glad you did. You got some helpful answers and some "cranky" answers. What I still need to know is did anybody see my question about the Holley Sniper EFI? Am I ok running the kits Vapor Guard hose under the Chassis in the "usual" location, or should I use some type of rigid/SS lines as it passes underneath?

    Thanks and I don't mind if the answers are cranky, just let it out...
    That's just begging for opinions. Just my opinion, but I think running flex hose where there is not a need smacks of an unprofessional build. From equipment hydraulics to aircraft, to boats, there are long standing industry practices regarding hard or flex line, clamp spacing bends, etc. Event though we're only talking about five feet of hard line, substituting flex line looks like someone didn't have time to do it right. Same with coiling two feet of brake line at the end rather than getting (or fabricating) the correct length.
    Once again, just my opinion and I recognize that I'm pickier than most. That said, I would never comment on the issue unless the builder was clearly asking me my opinion on the subject.
    MKII "Little Boy". 432CI all aluminum Windsor. .699 solid roller, DA Koni shocks, aluminum IRS, Straight cut dog ring T-5, 13" four piston Brembos, Bogart wheels. BOOM!

  24. #24
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    Mark,

    In the nhra rules it states that there can be no more than 12” of nonmetallic fuel line total. I am paraphrasing. You should click on the link that was provided on post #5. It didn’t take long to read. I am not familiar with your brand but you make it sound like it is not metal. Again, there are other areas of these builds that are in clear and noticeable violation of that set of rules. I have seen lots of videos of ffr roadsters on drag strips. I am by no means an expert as this is my first build. My son goes to a drag strip in Indianapolis a lot. He describes it this way. If you roll in off the street in a daily driver, they walk around the car and make sure it is in one piece and tell you to wear a seat belt. If you break certain barriers in time or speed they are more and more careful about checking. That is one track.
    MkIV complete kit #9259, Coyote, TKO600, IRS, Wilwoods x 4, many parts from Breeze, Forte, Russ's Garage and North Racecars
    17" Bullit style wheels, custom Kirkey seats, mid shift conversion, drop trunk, KRC power steering, Forte Hyd. clutch and slave, manual brakes
    overall build plan: build it to drive, not polish and black it out wherever possible, paint will be some shade of dark cherry

  25. #25
    Not a waxer Jeff Kleiner's Avatar
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    Mark,
    I would only run a short section of flex at each end (i.e.; at the pump/tank/engine) and rigid tubing from front to rear.

    Jeff

  26. #26
    Mark Eaton's Avatar
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    Got it. Thanks guys.
    MK4 #9130 , complete kit, arrived 8/10/2017, Street Legal 2/14/2020.
    DART SHP 347, EFI, TKO600, IRS
    http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...n-Build-Thread

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