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Thread: 40 Watt Garage & #9365

  1. #201
    BadAsp427's Avatar
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    I really like the "two-tone" approach for that back wall. I've been looking at mine off and on trying to decide if I want carpet all the way up. I think that is going to really look nice especially with matching tunnel cover.

    Mk4 20th Anniversary #8690 (#8 of 20) Purchased 8/18/18----Build Started 8/19/18
    Build Thread Click Here / Registry Entry Click Here / BluePrint Engines 347ci / TKO600
    Carb/Heater/Heated Seats/Cruise Control/Drop Trunk & Battery/Custom Cubby

  2. #202
    Senior Member Fixit's Avatar
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    Finding that tile transition piece cemented the plan... the in-house Design Consultant (Mrs. Fixit) planted the seed about having the leather kinda "wrap around the car" up high - dash to door panels to upper rear wall a few weeks ago, and I agreed.

    The polished edge between the carpet & leather will also tie the small amount of "bling" (chrome bezels, door latches, rollbar) all around the cockpit.
    John D. - Minneapolis 'Burbs

    1965 El Camino - LT-1, 4L60e, 4wh discs, SC&C susp.
    2013 F-150 Platinum - Twin Turbo 3.5
    2018 Mk4 Roadster w/ Coyote - #9365 - Build Thread Delivery 7/3/18, 1st Start 1/4/19, 1st Road Mile 5/5/19, Legal 6/18/19, In Paint 2/25/21, Done (?) 4/2021

  3. #203
    BadAsp427's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fixit View Post
    Finding that tile transition piece cemented the plan... the in-house Design Consultant (Mrs. Fixit) planted the seed about having the leather kinda "wrap around the car" up high - dash to door panels to upper rear wall a few weeks ago, and I agreed.

    The polished edge between the carpet & leather will also tie the small amount of "bling" (chrome bezels, door latches, rollbar) all around the cockpit.
    FYI, I'ma gonna steal this idea...

    Mk4 20th Anniversary #8690 (#8 of 20) Purchased 8/18/18----Build Started 8/19/18
    Build Thread Click Here / Registry Entry Click Here / BluePrint Engines 347ci / TKO600
    Carb/Heater/Heated Seats/Cruise Control/Drop Trunk & Battery/Custom Cubby

  4. #204
    Senior Member Fixit's Avatar
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    40 Watt Garage - Mk4 Build - Dash Upholstery

    Last weekend was spent upholstering the dash panel.

    I opted to use the FFR blank panel, and use a modified S/C layout. In a previous post I detailed the cutting of the gauge & switch holes.

    Materials:
    Vinyl or Leather of your choice
    Padding material of your choice
    3M “Super 77” spray adhesive
    Weldwood Contact Cement
    Good/Sharp scissors (not your wifes!)
    Supply of single-edge razor blades
    A few #11 X-Acto blades
    Heat Gun

    Several years ago I redid the floor in the breezeway with Pergo. I still had a length of the underlayment foam padding… hmmm. It’s about 1/8” thick, dense but with some “cush”, and doesn’t shred like other foam. This is what I used for the padding on the dash.
    The padding was attached using “77”, allowed to dry, and the holes cut out for the gauges, switches, and mounting screws.

    The vinyl is from our local JoAnn Fabrics – I purchased 3 yards.
    2 yard length (54” wide) is for the dash, trans tunnel, and rear cockpit wall
    1 yard length is on it’s way to Herb Fraser for door panels.

    A piece was cut with about 2” extra all around for the dash, the dash & vinyl sprayed with “77”, and allowed to tack up. The vinyl placed on the bench, and the dash carefully layed down.
    DashUphol01.png
    A stripe of contact cement was painted around the entire perimeter on the vinyl & dash, and allowed to dry (15 minutes min).

    The vinyl was worked/pulled/stretched and stuck to the dash – making pie cuts as needed, or playing it with a little heat to make it pliable for tight corners.
    **Be very careful using a heat gun!**
    DashUphol03.png

    Flashback… One of the things I did after cutting the holes and JB-Welding the mounting flanges to the aluminum panel was to bond several Ty-Rap cable clamps to the back of the dash. Anticipate possible places for wiring to be bundled, put a pea-sized blob of JB down, and press the clamp into the blob. The JB will squeeze up through the hole, and form a “rivet head”.

    Continue working around the perimeter, making cuts as needed, using heat as needed.
    DashUphol04.png

    The finished panel without holes
    DashUphol05.png DashUphol06.png

    Each gauge opening was painted with Contact Cement around the perimeter of the hole, and onto the vinyl. Pie-cuts were made, stopping about ¼” from the edge.
    The material was pulled/stretched over & around, and stuck to the aluminum.
    Each gauge was installed afterward, and snugged down (basically as a clamp).

    The switches are a bit tricky. There’s not a lot of room for error or forgiveness here, and you can’t pull the material through the hole like the gauges. The vinyl has to be trimmed just a hair smaller than the actual hole. The only thing holding the vinyl down is the retaining nut, and there’s not much of a flange there!
    DashUphol07.png

    The glovebox opening was next, and you can see the perimeter stripe of contact cement
    DashUphol08.png

    The finished product
    DashUphol13.png DashUphol11.png

    I decided to not use the FFR supplied turn & highbeam indicators or the Ford "MIL" lamp. I didn’t like their appearance, and the speedo has the turn & Highbeam indicators built in.

    On one of my scrounging sessions at a local surplus store, I scored a handful of these really neat “vintage” control panel indicator lamp bezels. They have a glass jewel, and just look period correct.
    I made up some housings for LED’s, and will be using these for “headlamp ON” and “MIL” indicators. They are flanking the Oil Pressure gauge.
    DashUphol12.png
    Last edited by Fixit; 11-15-2018 at 06:51 AM.
    John D. - Minneapolis 'Burbs

    1965 El Camino - LT-1, 4L60e, 4wh discs, SC&C susp.
    2013 F-150 Platinum - Twin Turbo 3.5
    2018 Mk4 Roadster w/ Coyote - #9365 - Build Thread Delivery 7/3/18, 1st Start 1/4/19, 1st Road Mile 5/5/19, Legal 6/18/19, In Paint 2/25/21, Done (?) 4/2021

  5. #205
    Senior Member Fixit's Avatar
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    40 Watt Garage - Mk4 Build - Electrics - Dash Harness

    I hope everyone had a Happy Thanksgiving, and has emerged from their "Food Coma" without any ill effects other than the scale going redline...

    11/25 - It's been awhile since an update on #9365, so here's the first of three.

    Wiring - This is where I'm my own worst enemy – an occupational by-product/hazard is I’m OCD about routing, labeling and neatness of cable routes and wiring.

    The supplied Ron Francis harness(es) are beautiful pieces of work, and being adaptable to more than one car is a great benefit to FFR and us. The circuit layout, connectors, and routing are simple and easy to follow/troubleshoot.
    However this “adaptability” pops off my OCD – extra length on pigtails, feeders not breaking out of the main harness at just the right spot, etc.
    (As supplied the harness will work perfectly for 99.9% of everyone out there… I’m just one of the .1% who’s a wiring geek and has to change things.)

    The way the harness is built (with the split-loom, taped tap-off’s/feeders, and being internally taped/ty-rap’d it’s pretty inflexible – it wants to lay in the way it’s set, and twisting it around is tough. I found that the feeders weren’t “pointed” in the direction I wanted, etc. when the loom was in place. Enter my OCD.

    I carefully cut the taped joints, and removed the split loom. As the split loom was removed, ty-raps were placed to hold the wiring, and preserve where feeders broke out of the main harness. The masking tape on the conductors (pre split loom) was also removed (this allows free twisting of the bundle, and removal of individual wires. I now have a basically “naked” harness – still as RF built it, but not in a strait-jacket.
    New breakouts for groups of wires were made as needed, trimmed to length, and ends installed
    DashWiring01.png

    Modifications:

    Trunk Courtesy Light & Backup Lights
    A “Hot At All Times (HAAT)” and “IGN” +12v are needed into the rear of the car.
    - I pulled back the supplied radio power & memory feed, and broke them out at where the rear harness plugs in.
    - A new connector was installed at this point

    Hot Rod Steering Column Connector & Turn Signal Indicators
    This connector is not used in the Roadster.
    On the Roadster, the turn signals & 4-ways are handled by toggle switches, or a combination of a toggle for the 4-ways, and RT’s column mounted VW switch.
    - With all the wrapping out of the way, I carefully pulled back on all of the “Hot Rod” column connector wiring and clipped them out of the harness
    - Ends were left about 3” long and capped off

    Dashboard turn & High Beam indicators can be individual lamps, use the ones integrated in the speedometer, or both.
    I chose to use the speedometer indicators & no outboard/dash mounted lamps.
    - The harness indicator feeds were trimmed back, and broken out of the harness behind the speedo.
    - A new 3-pin connector was installed on the harness leads and the speedo leads.



    Headlight Hi/Low Beam switching
    This can be done simply with the supplied toggle switch, or via a relay system using a light-duty momentary pushbutton (Russ Thompson or other). The relay system also adds the option of “Flash to Pass”.
    Via Toggle switch is straightforward – follow the assembly manual instructions.
    Via Relay system – a little bit of work is involved.

    Many builders have made up a sub-panel with terminal strips for the relay connections. Being a glutton for punishment I designed, etched & soldered up a circuit board with sockets for the required relays (Hi/Low beam & Flash-to-Pass) and removable terminal blocks for easy connection. The whole package is about 3” square. (It can be dropped out with 2 screws for access to the windshield post holes) I also included connection/pass-through points on the terminal blocks for the turn signal wiring - from the VW switch, FTP pushbutton, flasher feed, and out to the lamps - everything is in a neat little package.
    VW-FTP link

    DashWiring03.png DashWiring04.png

    The Coyote “connection to the vehicle” plug, and sub-harness with the clutch switch, MIL, etc. was unwrapped, and unnecessary lengths trimmed out. The big Ford plug was eliminated, and the wiring hard soldered to the RF harness at the appropriate points. Proprietary connectors (clutch switch, accelerator, etc.) were saved, and the wiring soldered & shrink wrapped back together. The Ford wiring was bundled with the RF wiring.
    The split loom was reinstalled, and the harness held down with ty-raps and Velcro tape
    DashWiring02.png

    The dashboard harness was put on a diet as well, and unnecessary lengths trimmed out when possible. The RF and SpeedHut wiring was secured to the dash panel with ty-rap clamps (JBwelded to the panel previously), ty-raps & Velcro tape.
    DashWiring05.png

    The dashboard was reinstalled, and connected
    DashWiring06.png
    Last edited by Fixit; 11-25-2018 at 08:56 AM. Reason: added link
    John D. - Minneapolis 'Burbs

    1965 El Camino - LT-1, 4L60e, 4wh discs, SC&C susp.
    2013 F-150 Platinum - Twin Turbo 3.5
    2018 Mk4 Roadster w/ Coyote - #9365 - Build Thread Delivery 7/3/18, 1st Start 1/4/19, 1st Road Mile 5/5/19, Legal 6/18/19, In Paint 2/25/21, Done (?) 4/2021

  6. #206
    Senior Member Fixit's Avatar
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    40 Watt Garage - Mk4 Build - Electrics - High Beam/Flash to Pass

    11/25 2 of 3

    (I'm using Russ Thompson's turn signal setup. He includes some very nice instructions on how to connect the High Beam & Flash to Pass wiring, but the diagram has a lot of "extra" stuff that may be confusing to some.)

    This is an explanation of how the VW Headlight Hi/Low relay and a Flash-to-Pass (FTP) relay interact, and how they will work when using a single momentary pushbutton to activate the circuit. I've included a schematic with just the basics needed to make the circuit work.

    VW Headlight Hi/Low Relay
    Part Numbers:
    VW # 111 941 583
    Standard Automotive Products # LR-35
    NAPA/Echlin # AR284
    Price ranges from $15 to $50

    This is a specialty relay – it is a mechanically latching or “toggle” type relay.
    Terminals:
    S = Relay Coil negative (-)
    30 = Relay Coil positive (+)
    56 = Relay Common
    56a = Relay Output #1
    56b = Relay Output #2

    Operation: (assuming 30 is energized with + voltage)

    • Apply a momentary (-) input to S and it will latch 56 to 56a (turning off 56b)
    • Apply another momentary (-) input to S and it will latch 56 to 56b (turning off 56a)

    Quirks:

    • It operates on a momentary input signal – not a constant trigger feed.
    • It doesn’t share the standard/common connector footprint of the other general purpose “Bosch-style” 5-pin relays


    Bosch/General Purpose Relay (5-pin, 20/30/40 Amp)
    Part Numbers: Too many to list
    They are available everywhere for $3 to $10. They are a staple-item in the automotive world.

    Terminals:
    86 = Relay Coil negative (-)
    85 = Relay Coil positive (+)
    30 = Relay Common
    87a = Normally Closed Relay Output
    87 = Normally Open Relay Output

    Operation: (assuming 85 is energized with + voltage)
    “At Rest” terminals 30 and 87a are connected

    • Apply (-) to 86 and the relay will change state – connecting 30 to 87
    • Remove (-) to 86 and the relay will de-energize – connecting 30 to 87a


    Circuit Operation – What the Momentary Pushbutton or Switch does:
    Headlights OFF – “Flash to Pass (FTP)” function is available.
    Action = Energizes Hi Beams for the duration of the input.

    The VW relay is inactive – it does not have +12v from the headlight switch to operate.
    The Bosch relay changes state, and momentarily sends +12v to the Hi Beam wiring

    Headlights ON - “Flash to Pass (FTP)” function is bypassed.
    Action = Toggles the VW relay between Hi & Low Beam wiring

    The VW relay is active – the headlight switch is now supplying +12v to its coil.
    The Bosch relay still changes state, but its output is over-ridden/negated by the VW relay.

    Purpose of the diode in the negative trigger feed between relays:
    Think of a diode as a “one-way” electricity valve. The diode in this case prevents residual or “breakdown” voltage from the relay coil(s) from messing with each other – causing unwanted or erratic operation.

    VW_FTP-diagram.jpg
    Last edited by Fixit; 11-25-2018 at 08:25 AM.
    John D. - Minneapolis 'Burbs

    1965 El Camino - LT-1, 4L60e, 4wh discs, SC&C susp.
    2013 F-150 Platinum - Twin Turbo 3.5
    2018 Mk4 Roadster w/ Coyote - #9365 - Build Thread Delivery 7/3/18, 1st Start 1/4/19, 1st Road Mile 5/5/19, Legal 6/18/19, In Paint 2/25/21, Done (?) 4/2021

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  8. #207
    Senior Member Fixit's Avatar
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    40 Watt Garage - Mk4 Build - Electrics - Cubby & Trunk Lighting

    11/25 3 of 3

    When I routed the rear harness I also included a few wires that weren’t “factory” supplied. These were inserted in the loom at the rear harness connector behind the dash and a 2-pin connector installed:

    • A “HAAT” (hot at all times) +12v feeder
    • A “IGN” (switched) +12v feeder

    I repurposed the “Radio Memory” and “Radio Power” wires for this duty.

    Additionally, a tap was made off of one of the brake light feeders with a length of 18ga, for a future “3rd Brake Light”. All of these wires were combined into the “Licence Light” loom, and routed together. These wires were broken out in the trunk area near the passenger side rollbar outrigger post.
    RT_Trunk07.jpg

    The harness was routed up onto the trunk hinge hoop, using ty-rap clamps. A small 2-post terminal block was installed on the forward face of the hoop for connections.

    Cubby Hole Lighting
    I made up a small “Z” bracket for a toggle switch, and installed it on the rear cockpit wall hoop. A length of LED strip lighting was stuck down, and the wiring routed over (under the carpet) to the trunk terminal block.
    Cubby01.png Cubby02.png Cubby03.png Cubby04.png

    The switch is just visible from the passenger compartment. I can now finalize the divider wall installation.

    Trunk Lighting
    A little “L” bracket was made up, and a small micro-switch mounted to it. I found the switch on a scrounging session at a local surplus outfit. AXMAN
    The mounting hole for the bracket is slotted, and the switch was adjusted so the trunk hinge arm makes/breaks contact with the arm on the switch. Wiring for this and the cubby switch was landed on the terminal block (just out of frame to the left of the hinge).
    Trunk01.png Trunk02.png Trunk04.png Trunk05.png

    Last edited by Fixit; 11-25-2018 at 08:26 AM.
    John D. - Minneapolis 'Burbs

    1965 El Camino - LT-1, 4L60e, 4wh discs, SC&C susp.
    2013 F-150 Platinum - Twin Turbo 3.5
    2018 Mk4 Roadster w/ Coyote - #9365 - Build Thread Delivery 7/3/18, 1st Start 1/4/19, 1st Road Mile 5/5/19, Legal 6/18/19, In Paint 2/25/21, Done (?) 4/2021

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  10. #208
    Senior Member Fixit's Avatar
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    40 Watt Garage - Mk4 Build - Replacement Voltage Inverter

    Received my replacement voltage inverter from SpeedHut today. I was wiped out from work today, but couldn't resist installing it and checking it out

    John D. - Minneapolis 'Burbs

    1965 El Camino - LT-1, 4L60e, 4wh discs, SC&C susp.
    2013 F-150 Platinum - Twin Turbo 3.5
    2018 Mk4 Roadster w/ Coyote - #9365 - Build Thread Delivery 7/3/18, 1st Start 1/4/19, 1st Road Mile 5/5/19, Legal 6/18/19, In Paint 2/25/21, Done (?) 4/2021

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  12. #209
    Senior Member Fixit's Avatar
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    40 Watt Garage - Mk4 Build - Front "Switchback" LED's

    (Since I had the cell-camera out, and was editing video anyway, I decided to shoot a bit about the front LED lamps I chose to run. I was going to clean up a little, and "produce" a more structured movie, but nahhhh! The shop's usually a mess, I'm usually a mess, and that's my story and I'm sticking to it!)

    I purchased the clear front lenses via Roger's Motors, and the LED switchbacks from SuperBrightLED

    I've had this type of LED lamp in the front of my '13 F-150 for years, and I really like them. They serve like Daytime Running Lights (DRL) whenever the vehicle's "on", and automatically flip to amber on a turn signal or hazards condition.
    They do require an ignition switched +12v source, which can be tapped into the main front harness parking light wire (before it splits L & R). It is imperative that "blocking" diodes be installed on the source and parking light wire(s) to prevent a backfeed to the rear taillights and other ignition switched circuits.

    John D. - Minneapolis 'Burbs

    1965 El Camino - LT-1, 4L60e, 4wh discs, SC&C susp.
    2013 F-150 Platinum - Twin Turbo 3.5
    2018 Mk4 Roadster w/ Coyote - #9365 - Build Thread Delivery 7/3/18, 1st Start 1/4/19, 1st Road Mile 5/5/19, Legal 6/18/19, In Paint 2/25/21, Done (?) 4/2021

  13. #210
    Straversi's Avatar
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    That’s a nice feature. Very cool.
    -Steve
    Mk IV #8901 - Complete kit, Coyote, TKO-600, IRS. Ordered 5/23/16, Delivered 7/14/16, First Start 8/13/17, First Go-Kart 10/22/17, Registered and Completed 10/18/18. Build Thread: http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...V-Coyote-Build Graduation Thread: https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/show...-Roadster-8901

  14. #211
    Senior Member Fixit's Avatar
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    40 Watt Garage - Mk4 Build - Milestone... We have a ROLLER!!

    Well I bit the bullet, and after triple checking that I'd not have to do anything "major" under the car I rigged up the crane & floor jack and took #9365 down off the dolly!

    Roller01.png

    I only had to raise it about 1" to clear the "saddles" in the uprights, and slide the dolly out sideways. Then a little bit front, rear, repeat and it's on the wheels.

    Roller02.png

    IT IS SO WEIRD TO HAVE IT DOWN NEAR RIDE-HEIGHT!

    Since July it's been about 20" off the ground while getting it to this stage, and now it actually is looking like a vehicle, not a project on a stand.

    Roller03.png Roller04.png

    Now to get Mr. Wile E. Coyote off his dolly, and into the chassis (maybe ACME tools can help?)
    Last edited by Fixit; 12-15-2018 at 04:09 AM.
    John D. - Minneapolis 'Burbs

    1965 El Camino - LT-1, 4L60e, 4wh discs, SC&C susp.
    2013 F-150 Platinum - Twin Turbo 3.5
    2018 Mk4 Roadster w/ Coyote - #9365 - Build Thread Delivery 7/3/18, 1st Start 1/4/19, 1st Road Mile 5/5/19, Legal 6/18/19, In Paint 2/25/21, Done (?) 4/2021

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  16. #212

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    Congrats, John! That's great news. Yeah, i can only imagine how weird it must be to have the car down low. Sometimes i feel like i'm working on what's going to be a jeep since it's always lifted up off the ground on the dolly. Nice going!

  17. #213
    Boydster's Avatar
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    Yay!! The first time mine hit the ground, I was surprised at how low and little it looked. And the suspension was still too high. Congrats and keep on trucking....
    ---Boyd---
    MkIV #9042 build thread
    www.boss427.us
    427W, TKO600, Moser 3.55 rear.
    Delivered Feb 2017, Graduated Nov 4, 2019

  18. #214
    Senior Member Fixit's Avatar
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    Only 1 minor mishap...
    I get it down on the ground, and try and roll it a few feet. It moves about 6", and there's this "jerk/stop" then it moves. Then another foot, and "jerk/stop" move. WTH?? And now it rolls freely.

    As it was rolling I heard two clunks as something hit the floor.

    Both rear wheel weight balance strips got sheared off by the calipers - they were stuck on in an "interference" area of the wheel!
    John D. - Minneapolis 'Burbs

    1965 El Camino - LT-1, 4L60e, 4wh discs, SC&C susp.
    2013 F-150 Platinum - Twin Turbo 3.5
    2018 Mk4 Roadster w/ Coyote - #9365 - Build Thread Delivery 7/3/18, 1st Start 1/4/19, 1st Road Mile 5/5/19, Legal 6/18/19, In Paint 2/25/21, Done (?) 4/2021

  19. #215
    Senior Member Fixit's Avatar
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    40 Watt Garage - Mk4 Build - "It's in the Hole!"

    Got home from work, had dinner, and decided to jig up the engine on the chains/leveler to get ready for a thrash session tomorrow.
    After a couple of up & down sessions off the dolly to get the chains set right I decided "why not".

    Believe it or not this was one of the EASIEST engine/trans combinations to slide into place! Literally no cussing involved, and nothing scuffed up or damaged - just a slow-dance between lowering, tilting, easing in, repeat... total time was less than an hour.

    Install_01.jpgInstall_02.jpgInstall_03.pngInstall_04.jpgInstall_05.pngInstall_06.jpgInstall_07.pngInstall_08.jpgInstall_09.jpgInstall_10.jpg

    The only item that wound up being a clearance "issue" going in was (of all things) the side drain plug on the pan. I had to remove it for the oil pan to snuggle past the motor mount risers on the frame.
    Last edited by Fixit; 12-15-2018 at 06:06 PM. Reason: Oil pan plug clarification
    John D. - Minneapolis 'Burbs

    1965 El Camino - LT-1, 4L60e, 4wh discs, SC&C susp.
    2013 F-150 Platinum - Twin Turbo 3.5
    2018 Mk4 Roadster w/ Coyote - #9365 - Build Thread Delivery 7/3/18, 1st Start 1/4/19, 1st Road Mile 5/5/19, Legal 6/18/19, In Paint 2/25/21, Done (?) 4/2021

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  21. #216
    Not a waxer Jeff Kleiner's Avatar
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    Yep, that's how it's supposed to work

    Jeff

  22. #217
    BadAsp427's Avatar
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    Wow, that's kinda how mine ended up in the hole. I still do not see how you guys get the headers on the DS with those... Looks great!!!

    Mk4 20th Anniversary #8690 (#8 of 20) Purchased 8/18/18----Build Started 8/19/18
    Build Thread Click Here / Registry Entry Click Here / BluePrint Engines 347ci / TKO600
    Carb/Heater/Heated Seats/Cruise Control/Drop Trunk & Battery/Custom Cubby

  23. #218
    Senior Member cv2065's Avatar
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    Nice work John. Big milestone on the build! Hopefully I'll be there before Xmas break is over.
    MKIV Roadster - #9380 - Complete Kit - Delivered 7/17/18 - SOLD 5/2023
    Build Thread #1: https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/show...V-Build-Thread
    MKIV Roadster - #TBD - Complete Kit - Delivered 11/6/23 - In Progress
    Build Thread #2: https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/show...Build-Thread-2

  24. #219

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    Awesome! Congrats, John - that's great news!

  25. #220
    Mark Eaton's Avatar
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    Very impressive
    MK4 #9130 , complete kit, arrived 8/10/2017, Street Legal 2/14/2020.
    DART SHP 347, EFI, TKO600, IRS
    http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...n-Build-Thread

  26. #221
    Senior Member Fixit's Avatar
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    Had another productive day in the 40 Watt Garage...

    Mr. Wile E. Coyote is now bolted in, and locked down. Spent the next few hours finalizing everything from the bellhousing aft.
    - The transmission "A-Frame" is in place
    - Hydraulic line from the clutch master is on the slave, and the clutch system filled & bled.
    - Driveshaft is installed
    - Transmission is filled with nearly 3qts. of Mobil 1 Synth ATF
    - Sat in the car and made lots of vroomvroom noises while rowing some gears!!

    Questions for the group... I'm running the IRS rear axle.

    The trans A-frame, mount adapter plate, and mount all went in "as spec'd" by FFR (meaning this on top of that, etc.). But as bolted in, my forward driveshaft yoke hit the bigazz 4" cross-tube on the frame. I had to fab up a 1/4" thick spacer plate to go under/between the mount and A-frame for spin clearance.
    - I haven't checked driveline angles at all yet... I know there's going to be some shimming involved here.
    - Is this common?
    - What's a typical amount?

    Clutch
    I'm using Forte's hydraulic setup. Again, this is 3 minutes into the install... no adjustments yet.
    - Surprised at the effort needed for a "juice" clutch... reminds me of a mechanical.
    John D. - Minneapolis 'Burbs

    1965 El Camino - LT-1, 4L60e, 4wh discs, SC&C susp.
    2013 F-150 Platinum - Twin Turbo 3.5
    2018 Mk4 Roadster w/ Coyote - #9365 - Build Thread Delivery 7/3/18, 1st Start 1/4/19, 1st Road Mile 5/5/19, Legal 6/18/19, In Paint 2/25/21, Done (?) 4/2021

  27. #222
    Senior Member edwardb's Avatar
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    My Coyote/TKO/IRS Roadster build needed a 3/4-inch spacer to raise the transmission tailshaft over the 4-inch tube and to the proper pinion angle. A spacer is normal for a TKO. You'll see it described in nearly every build thread. Not sure why it isn't mentioned in the instructions.

    Lots of variables that contribute to clutch effort. I've had both cable and hydraulic in these builds. Can't say that I've noticed a huge difference in effort of hydraulic over a well routed and quality cable setup. There are other advantages and I prefer hydraulic. But it's still a pretty good push.
    Last edited by edwardb; 12-15-2018 at 08:29 PM.
    Build 1: Mk3 Roadster #5125. Sold 11/08/2014. Build 2: Mk4 Roadster #7750. Sold 04/10/2017. Build Thread
    Build 3: Mk4 Roadster 20th Anniversary #8674. Sold 09/07/2020. Build Thread and Video. Build 4: Gen 3 Type 65 Coupe #59. Gen 3 Coyote. Legal 03/04/2020. Build Thread and Video
    Build 5: 35 Hot Rod Truck #138. LS3 and 4L65E auto. Rcvd 01/05/2021. Legal 04/20/2023. Build Thread. Sold 11/9/2023.

  28. #223
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    Just as a precaution, I would plumb in the hyd clutch and make sure the fork does not have any interference through its range of motion. My pivot bolt was the wrong length and I had to pull the trans to correct. It can be done, but pulling the engine/trans combo might be a better option, if you have to make any corrections.
    You will need someone to look inside the bell housing to make sure the fork does not contact the pressure plate. I could not adjust it to clear with the external adjustments and would not consider putting a stop under the clutch pedal travel.
    Last edited by Railroad; 12-16-2018 at 10:51 AM.
    20th Anniversary Mk IV, A50XS Coyote, TKO 600, Trunk Drop Box, Trunk Battery Box, Cubby Hole, Seat Heaters, Radiator hanger and shroud.

  29. #224
    Senior Member Fixit's Avatar
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    Looks like today is going to be setting/correcting pinion, output shaft, and driveshaft angles....

    After a 1/2 hour Search & Rescue I found my angle finder in the wrong drawer, and can begin.
    My initial check shows that the pinion flange is about 1 deg "down", and with the IRS this is a locked setting. The trans output shaft has to go "up" a considerable amount - like about 3/4"+ (spacer) - to get it near zero, let alone to + 1 deg. to null the angles.

    I'm thinking about locking the trans at zero. Driveline torque will bring the pinion angle to near zero under load... Thoughts??
    John D. - Minneapolis 'Burbs

    1965 El Camino - LT-1, 4L60e, 4wh discs, SC&C susp.
    2013 F-150 Platinum - Twin Turbo 3.5
    2018 Mk4 Roadster w/ Coyote - #9365 - Build Thread Delivery 7/3/18, 1st Start 1/4/19, 1st Road Mile 5/5/19, Legal 6/18/19, In Paint 2/25/21, Done (?) 4/2021

  30. #225
    Senior Member Fixit's Avatar
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    40 Watt Garage - Mk4 Build - Driveline Angles & Spacer

    My Coyote/TKO/IRS Roadster build needed a 3/4-inch spacer to raise the transmission tailshaft over the 4-inch tube and to the proper pinion angle.
    Update:
    Spent most of the day messing with this. Remember the scene from "Apollo 13", when the news guy is describing the miniscule angle of reentry with the basketball?? That's kinda how I felt until the brain kicked in and remembered a few things...

    - I bolted the engine in with the FFR supplied 1/2" spacers in both motor mounts. So add 1/2" height and whatever angle/degrees that adds/alters in relation to the trans mount.
    - FFR does not supply any "spacers" for the trans mount. Only the 1/4" thick adapter plate to go from the Tremec to the mount alters the relationship.
    - The IRS center section is locked in a fixed position. It's going to be at the angle that the mounting points are jigged and welded to.

    Add all these things up and to "null out" the 1/2 (zero) degree down of the IRS input flange, I ultimately needed a 1-1/2" spacer between the A-Frame and the transmission mount.
    This drove me nuts, as it seems to be a large amount... but the angle gauge doesn't lie, and I had my wife come out and verify - without prompting - just explaining what to measure and why - and she came up with the same numbers.

    None the less everything's locked down, and just "looks" right.

    Spacer_01.pngSpacer_02.pngSpacer_03.png

    As it turned out I had a chunk of 1-1/2" square tubing in the scrap box from another project. Some layout, drill, and paint and done.
    Last edited by Fixit; 12-16-2018 at 06:37 PM.
    John D. - Minneapolis 'Burbs

    1965 El Camino - LT-1, 4L60e, 4wh discs, SC&C susp.
    2013 F-150 Platinum - Twin Turbo 3.5
    2018 Mk4 Roadster w/ Coyote - #9365 - Build Thread Delivery 7/3/18, 1st Start 1/4/19, 1st Road Mile 5/5/19, Legal 6/18/19, In Paint 2/25/21, Done (?) 4/2021

  31. #226
    Senior Member edwardb's Avatar
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    I've never heard of adding a 1-1/2 inch spacer. Haven't seen it in my builds, the several I've helped with, or any of the many build threads I've followed. That's a lot. I'm assuming your shifter isn't hitting the underside of the cross-braces in the tunnel? But I'll bet it's close. The 1/4-inch plate at the transmission mount is unique to the Coyote installation. Due to the shorter and more forward location of the Coyote block. The 1/2-inch spacers in the motor mounts, again a Coyote thing, affects things a little. But not that much. Having the final pinion angle exactly at zero isn't necessarily a good thing. The U-joints are made to swing a little and a 1/2 - 1 degree offset is considered desirable. Not to offset how a solid axle diff tries to rotate upward during launch, since the IRS diff is fixed as you already pointed out. But it's apparently better for the bearings. My IRS build, with the exact parts as you are using, has the added plate, 1/2-inch engine mount spacers, and a 3/4-inch transmission spacer. Pinion angle is just under 1 degrees and is glass smooth through two seasons of driving.
    Build 1: Mk3 Roadster #5125. Sold 11/08/2014. Build 2: Mk4 Roadster #7750. Sold 04/10/2017. Build Thread
    Build 3: Mk4 Roadster 20th Anniversary #8674. Sold 09/07/2020. Build Thread and Video. Build 4: Gen 3 Type 65 Coupe #59. Gen 3 Coyote. Legal 03/04/2020. Build Thread and Video
    Build 5: 35 Hot Rod Truck #138. LS3 and 4L65E auto. Rcvd 01/05/2021. Legal 04/20/2023. Build Thread. Sold 11/9/2023.

  32. #227
    Senior Member Fixit's Avatar
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    This has been "nagging" at me all day... and one of the things that flashed to mind was to recheck the static level of the frame/chassis.
    If the frame isn't level to the world fore & aft, the fixed location of the IRS will mirror this error, and add this error factor to the pinion flange angle... making me compensate with a overly large spacer.
    John D. - Minneapolis 'Burbs

    1965 El Camino - LT-1, 4L60e, 4wh discs, SC&C susp.
    2013 F-150 Platinum - Twin Turbo 3.5
    2018 Mk4 Roadster w/ Coyote - #9365 - Build Thread Delivery 7/3/18, 1st Start 1/4/19, 1st Road Mile 5/5/19, Legal 6/18/19, In Paint 2/25/21, Done (?) 4/2021

  33. #228
    BadAsp427's Avatar
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    Yes, you are exactly correct, sort of... It is all the relationship between the two ends of the drive shaft... It could be straight vertical... as long as the angle between the two is within the desired specs. FYI, I have the same build as EdwardB (Paul) with my 20th Anniversary build... I had to put in right at 3/4" of spacer to bring my tail shaft up. Of course I'm not running the Coyote, but from what I can see I had the same correction to make. I did not get all fancy with a custom made spacer, just used a stack of grade 8 washers on the two bolts going between the "A" frame and the trans. And as Paul noted, you do not want it to be dead on 0* as this will not allow the bearings to rotate at all. A very slight angle is preferred.

    CHECK THIS OUT
    Last edited by BadAsp427; 12-17-2018 at 06:28 AM.

    Mk4 20th Anniversary #8690 (#8 of 20) Purchased 8/18/18----Build Started 8/19/18
    Build Thread Click Here / Registry Entry Click Here / BluePrint Engines 347ci / TKO600
    Carb/Heater/Heated Seats/Cruise Control/Drop Trunk & Battery/Custom Cubby

  34. #229
    Senior Member edwardb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fixit View Post
    This has been "nagging" at me all day... and one of the things that flashed to mind was to recheck the static level of the frame/chassis.
    If the frame isn't level to the world fore & aft, the fixed location of the IRS will mirror this error, and add this error factor to the pinion flange angle... making me compensate with a overly large spacer.
    This is discussed on here a lot. There are a lot of "recipes" out there for measuring pinion angle. Google "pinion angle" and be prepared for a lot of reading, and a lot of different suggestions. For these builds, keep it simple. Measure the relative difference between the engine and the diff. Chassis can be whatever. I typically put an electronic angle gauge on the crankshaft balancer and measure how far from vertical. Then measure the diff. Easy with the driveshaft off across the pinion flange. Then calculate the relative difference. With a 3/4-inch spacer, mine came out 1 degree difference, e.g. engine down 1 degree more than diff pointed up. Other factors, such as driveshaft angle, working angles, etc. are well within desired limits.

    Quote Originally Posted by BadAsp427 View Post
    Yes, you are exactly correct, sort of... It is all the relationship between the two ends of the drive shaft...
    See above. As I said, this is discussed a lot. What I'm describing has been discussed and recommended on these forums as long as I've been around, and has worked well for me on my builds.
    Build 1: Mk3 Roadster #5125. Sold 11/08/2014. Build 2: Mk4 Roadster #7750. Sold 04/10/2017. Build Thread
    Build 3: Mk4 Roadster 20th Anniversary #8674. Sold 09/07/2020. Build Thread and Video. Build 4: Gen 3 Type 65 Coupe #59. Gen 3 Coyote. Legal 03/04/2020. Build Thread and Video
    Build 5: 35 Hot Rod Truck #138. LS3 and 4L65E auto. Rcvd 01/05/2021. Legal 04/20/2023. Build Thread. Sold 11/9/2023.

  35. #230
    Senior Member Fixit's Avatar
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    I'm going to go over all of this again after dinner tonight, and find the answer.
    - I have measuring from the pinion flange (driveshaft off)
    - I have been measuring from both the crank and water pump pulley flats

    I still think it's because the frame isn't level, which means the IRS diff isn't level, and I'm neglecting to subtract this added angle from the readings off the pinion & crank pulley flanges. This isn't brain science or rocket surgery, it's reading a dial on a pendulum... I'm missing something simple.
    John D. - Minneapolis 'Burbs

    1965 El Camino - LT-1, 4L60e, 4wh discs, SC&C susp.
    2013 F-150 Platinum - Twin Turbo 3.5
    2018 Mk4 Roadster w/ Coyote - #9365 - Build Thread Delivery 7/3/18, 1st Start 1/4/19, 1st Road Mile 5/5/19, Legal 6/18/19, In Paint 2/25/21, Done (?) 4/2021

  36. #231
    Not a waxer Jeff Kleiner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fixit View Post
    I still think it's because the frame isn't level, which means the IRS diff isn't level, and I'm neglecting to subtract this added angle from the readings off the pinion & crank pulley flanges.
    The frame doesn't have to be level John; for all that matters you can measure pinion angle with the car hanging from a tree with it's nose down (or up, it won't matter)

    For some reason talks of pinion angle often seen to treat it as if it's some black art or voodoo but it's really quite simple---when we speak of pinion angle we are referring to the pinion shaft relative to the transmission's output shaft.
    Don't get caught up or confused on any thoughts of horizontal. Think of it this way; when looking at the car from the side if you were to project one line from the transmission output forward and another line from the pinion shaft forward with your pinion angle at zero they would be parallel. If you put any angle to the pinion the two lines would no longer be parallel and would get farther apart as they go forward. If the pinion were to be angled UP (relative to the trans) it's line would go upward above the output line; if it were angled DOWN the pinion line would angle down. Below is what we're after. Clear as mud?

    My method for ease of measurement:
    For a live axle set ride height then put the car on jackstands so that the axle is loaded---obviously this does not come into play with an IRS car. We don't care if the frame is dead nuts level; we're only going to look at the difference between output shaft & pinion. We know that the crankshaft and trans output shaft are parallel therefore the face of the damper/ crank pulley is perpendicular to the output. We also know that the pinion flange face is perpendicular to the pinion. See where I'm heading? For me it is easier to get a good measurement with the magnetic angle finder by reading vertically on the crank pulley/ damper and pinion flange rather than trying to work with the horizontal shafts themselves. Once you can see the two angles you can then calculate the difference. Generally with these cars we want the pinion down ~1-2 degrees (once again, meaning the input is pointing down in relation to the transmission output shaft). Reason being is so that when the axle/differential tries to rotate it's input upward under acceleration the pinion angle becomes less. This rotation is greatly reduced with the fixed diff of an IRS car, especially when the differential in an IRS car and virtually eliminated if it is installed with solid or poly bushings vs. rubber.

    Hope that makes sense and helps!

    Jeff

  37. #232
    Senior Member Fixit's Avatar
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    I've got this dyslexia thing where I can't "flip/visualize" things in my head... I have to make notes or sketches to "see things like this. I now realize that the frame level makes no difference, as the induced angle will effect both items being measured.
    I bought a new angle gauge today, my other one was sticking. We'll have some answers soon
    John D. - Minneapolis 'Burbs

    1965 El Camino - LT-1, 4L60e, 4wh discs, SC&C susp.
    2013 F-150 Platinum - Twin Turbo 3.5
    2018 Mk4 Roadster w/ Coyote - #9365 - Build Thread Delivery 7/3/18, 1st Start 1/4/19, 1st Road Mile 5/5/19, Legal 6/18/19, In Paint 2/25/21, Done (?) 4/2021

  38. #233
    BadAsp427's Avatar
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    I bet when you are all done, you'll have about 3/4" (+/- 1/8") of spacer raising the rear of your transmission... Then it will all make total sense...

    Mk4 20th Anniversary #8690 (#8 of 20) Purchased 8/18/18----Build Started 8/19/18
    Build Thread Click Here / Registry Entry Click Here / BluePrint Engines 347ci / TKO600
    Carb/Heater/Heated Seats/Cruise Control/Drop Trunk & Battery/Custom Cubby

  39. #234
    Senior Member Fixit's Avatar
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    Then it will all make total sense...
    There's never been a problem with the concept of the angles, or the theory & practice of U-joints, drive, and driven members.

    The old rule of "Test Your Test Equipment" hails true yet again. Don't trust/use wonky measuring devices.
    My gut just told me something was wrong, and it wouldn't let that dog sleep.

    New angle gauge netted 1deg up on the pinion flange and with the 1-1/2 spacer in place, dead nuts zero on the engine.
    (Not too crazy about being "up" on the pinion, but it ain't going anywhere with poly bushings, and I can't do anything about it)

    I cut a piece of material to 3/4" and slid it under the trans mount and re-measured... 1-1/2 degs down - gives me an acceptable .5 deg difference, and a shaft angle within tolerance.(Wouldn't you know...)

    Didn't have any 3/4" square tube around, so I sliced up the other spacer into 3/4" chunks, a quick braze job, a blast in the cabinet, some paint and NOW it's done. In the car. DONE. This dog can sleep tonight.
    Spacer02.jpg
    Last edited by Fixit; 12-18-2018 at 04:32 PM.
    John D. - Minneapolis 'Burbs

    1965 El Camino - LT-1, 4L60e, 4wh discs, SC&C susp.
    2013 F-150 Platinum - Twin Turbo 3.5
    2018 Mk4 Roadster w/ Coyote - #9365 - Build Thread Delivery 7/3/18, 1st Start 1/4/19, 1st Road Mile 5/5/19, Legal 6/18/19, In Paint 2/25/21, Done (?) 4/2021

  40. Likes PeteMeindl liked this post
  41. #235
    BadAsp427's Avatar
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    Awesome!!!

    Mk4 20th Anniversary #8690 (#8 of 20) Purchased 8/18/18----Build Started 8/19/18
    Build Thread Click Here / Registry Entry Click Here / BluePrint Engines 347ci / TKO600
    Carb/Heater/Heated Seats/Cruise Control/Drop Trunk & Battery/Custom Cubby

  42. #236
    Senior Member Fixit's Avatar
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    Spent several hours out in the "40 Watt" today doing some wiring and plumbing on the Coyote. Stripped out a few un-needed Ford wires, shortened and dressed up a few other looms (not the O2 wires...) and sorted out the PCV & vacuum plumbing.

    Ordered some fittings for the fuel lines and PCV, and hopefully Santa will bring some stuff for the heater plumbing.
    John D. - Minneapolis 'Burbs

    1965 El Camino - LT-1, 4L60e, 4wh discs, SC&C susp.
    2013 F-150 Platinum - Twin Turbo 3.5
    2018 Mk4 Roadster w/ Coyote - #9365 - Build Thread Delivery 7/3/18, 1st Start 1/4/19, 1st Road Mile 5/5/19, Legal 6/18/19, In Paint 2/25/21, Done (?) 4/2021

  43. #237
    Senior Member Fixit's Avatar
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    One of the things that really frosts my nuggets is being held hostage to proprietary tools or parts... special tool XYZ123x9 is needed for this, etc. I suppose I should be used to it, as I own another black hole you throw money into - a boat with a Mercruiser I/O drive.

    Just spent awhile surfing around and ordered the "Ford Only" hoses for the coolant expansion tank. Dropped $125+ for a few feet of rubber hose with some bends molded in, and a checkvalve in one of them.

    Why aren't these available in the aftermarket yet? Looking at the fitment charts they work on about a zillion Ford cars, and I'd think by now you might need a few in collision repair or maintenance.
    Last edited by Fixit; 12-24-2018 at 03:42 PM.
    John D. - Minneapolis 'Burbs

    1965 El Camino - LT-1, 4L60e, 4wh discs, SC&C susp.
    2013 F-150 Platinum - Twin Turbo 3.5
    2018 Mk4 Roadster w/ Coyote - #9365 - Build Thread Delivery 7/3/18, 1st Start 1/4/19, 1st Road Mile 5/5/19, Legal 6/18/19, In Paint 2/25/21, Done (?) 4/2021

  44. #238

    Yes, I love Technology
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    I'm running an 818 build but occasional read other builds for fun and enlightenment. I noticed up above (#206) on your relay wiring, you tied a Bosch style relay pins 85 to + and 86 to -. This will work for the relays that do not have a built in diode. But if you grab and drop in one with a diode (could happen some day if you weren't watching for this), the diode will fry...

    Pulled from an info source I trust (and relays with a diode usually have the pinout and diode legend on the outside of the cube):

    According to DIN 72552 the coil should be fed with +12V to terminal 86 and grounded via terminal 85, however in practice it makes no difference which way around they are wired, unless you are using a relay with an integrated diode.

  45. #239
    Senior Member Fixit's Avatar
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    According to DIN 72552 the coil should be fed with +12V to terminal 86 and grounded via terminal 85, however in practice it makes no difference which way around they are wired, unless you are using a relay with an integrated diode.
    Good info... I will update my drawings and reference data!
    John D. - Minneapolis 'Burbs

    1965 El Camino - LT-1, 4L60e, 4wh discs, SC&C susp.
    2013 F-150 Platinum - Twin Turbo 3.5
    2018 Mk4 Roadster w/ Coyote - #9365 - Build Thread Delivery 7/3/18, 1st Start 1/4/19, 1st Road Mile 5/5/19, Legal 6/18/19, In Paint 2/25/21, Done (?) 4/2021

  46. #240
    Senior Member Fixit's Avatar
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    Question for Edwardb or someone who's done the molded hose/stainless pipe mod for the lower radiator hose...

    How long do the "legs" of the SS elbow need to be from the bend? I may already have a source for this, but I don't know if it'll be long enough, and I don't want to order the suggested.
    John D. - Minneapolis 'Burbs

    1965 El Camino - LT-1, 4L60e, 4wh discs, SC&C susp.
    2013 F-150 Platinum - Twin Turbo 3.5
    2018 Mk4 Roadster w/ Coyote - #9365 - Build Thread Delivery 7/3/18, 1st Start 1/4/19, 1st Road Mile 5/5/19, Legal 6/18/19, In Paint 2/25/21, Done (?) 4/2021

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