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Thread: What the heck is THIS?!? A NEW GTM?

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    Administrator David Hodgkins's Avatar
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    What the heck is THIS?!? A NEW GTM?

    So FFR released a very cool 20 minute build video for the new hotrod truck:

    https://www.powernationtv.com/episod...-hot-rod-truck

    I invite you to watch the whole thing as this as a great intro to the new truck; Just pay attention starting at the 2:20 mark:

    WHAT IS THIS over Jeremy Luchini's shoulder??



    They then cut to a 3'd image of a coupe:



    They then show several shots of the interior. I'm having a tough time discerning the frame. Is this a GTM?





    Or maybe a modified Gen3 Coupe? doesn't look like it compared to the Gen3 Coupe frame they show a little later...:





    continued...

    Last edited by David Hodgkins; 03-07-2018 at 06:41 PM.

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    Administrator David Hodgkins's Avatar
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    So What do you guys think? Is this a NEW GTM?






    Last edited by David Hodgkins; 03-07-2018 at 06:16 PM.

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    Senior Member flynntuna's Avatar
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    The cab forward design makes it look like it could be a GTM design exercise that FFR is playing with. That last photo in your first post is the gen 3 coupe? Are they (FFR) doing this to generate buzz, or are they really leaking spy photos? Either way that car is hot.

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    David
    I wonder if that is an optional body for the New Daytona chassis.
    Get some of the Gen3 guys to look at the pics showing the frame for comparison.
    Dale

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    Administrator David Hodgkins's Avatar
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    I did some more digging, and I'm thinking this is Jeremy's personal GTM redesign idea:

    http://www.luchinidesign.com/GTM_L1_Concept.html

    ?

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    RoadRacer's Avatar
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    I still prefer the SL-C over all of them, but this could be as nice once they get to finished render..
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    Dave Smith did say "our new super car project" in one of his recent posts.

    Could be that?

    Martin
    Previous forum name was "Fezzek"

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    Senior Member shinn497's Avatar
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    I actually think that looks like olmos's 818 design but the V8 clearly screams GTM (or gtm successor). Lets hope for that (although I wouldn't mind another 818 refresh).

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    EFI Rules and Carbs Drool Arrowhead's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by myjones View Post
    David
    I wonder if that is an optional body for the New Daytona chassis.
    Get some of the Gen3 guys to look at the pics showing the frame for comparison.
    Dale
    Winner Winner Chicken Dinner!

    I visited the shop last month and grilled the guys about it and got the look of "oops how did you know about that?" look. Told them it was on the TV show so the whole world knows now. I was told it was an future car based on the Gen III coupe chassis. Not to replace the coupe, but to develop a new car using that chassis.
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    I don't have any inside knowledge, although I have always wished I were an "insider,"... Nonetheless, I also believe it is a design based on the Gen 3 Coupe. It makes sense to me. Offer up a number of designs, each based on a proven chassis, and you can deliver a quality kit, and still offer a number of choices for people who have differing tastes. Or, you can have a half dozen bodies sitting in your garage to attach to the frame depending upon your taste that day. Kind of like picking out your best suit... Or, pick the shell that matches your spouse's outfit -- hopefully without changing it 3 or 4 times during the process like my wife --HA!

    I think this is an excellent strategy for Factory Five, and should also be received well. BTW, that design looks pretty wicked!

    Regards,

    Steve

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    They were dropping hints about this as far back as last June when HotRod Magazine featured the Gen3 coupe...

    Kyle

    https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/show...l=1#post284526

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    They all beat me to it. Numerous hints that the next release will be something based on the Gen 3 Coupe chassis. I didn't compare every detail, but the pictures showing the chassis look very much like the Gen 3 Coupe chassis sitting in my garage. Obvious major departure from the GTM design though (and 818 for that matter) going from rear mid-engine to front engine.
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    Senior Member shinn497's Avatar
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    But the design in question clearly has the engine in the middle. Am I missing something??

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    Dave Smith remarked about a new supercar months ago, could have been June> so I asked him "what qualities make up a supercar"
    and he gave a lengthy reply in that thread. IIRC he had said they were designing their next supercar which I took to mean a replacement
    for the GTM. Then the Gen 3 Daytona body and it's all new stiff chassis came out for SEMA. That's where I got the marriage of all those
    elements to answer David/Wookie's guess of the Gen 3 supercar with different bodies.
    BTW
    Arrowhead owes me a chicken dinner
    Dale

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    Quote Originally Posted by shinn497 View Post
    But the design in question clearly has the engine in the middle. Am I missing something??

    That engine is certainly between the front tires.

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    Administrator David Hodgkins's Avatar
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    I think the renders at the top of the thread are definitely a re-bodied GTM, possible done as a design exercise?

    The pic of the chassis with the motor IS a Gen3 coupe. I put it up there to highlight the obvious differences in the frame.

    I've heard the "rumors" too about a re-bodied Gen3 front engine "supercar". I'm ALL OVER THAT as my next build! The render took me by surprise, and I'm wondering (hopeful) if maybe they are also giving thought to a Gen3 GTM. But one thing that concerns me is the overall complexity of the GTM as compared to all the other models.

    That alone may be reason enough to kill it.

    The new body design is pretty cool though and here's hoping FFR is investigating this option further.


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    Senior Member UnhipPopano's Avatar
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    Interesting discussion, but I do not believe that the computer rendering is anything but a design that has some nice curves but would not lend itself to becoming reality. It definitely looks like a mid engine design, but air flow to the engine compartment is not considered in the design. Put an engine in the front, and there would not be room for the driver and passenger. The door design looks like it did not take side intrusion into account. The small windows on the side would make visibility an issue. But all of these concerns aside, the car has nice curves. Hot Wheels should use it for a toy.

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    VRaptor SpeedWorks, LLC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Hodgkins View Post
    I think the renders at the top of the thread are definitely a re-bodied GTM, possible done as a design exercise?
    Yeah....that is definitely a GTM chassis in the top renderings of the interior....looks like everything is there except the halo bars/windshield frame. As UnhipPopano mentioned, it looks great, but has no provisions for engine bay cooling....so not exactly sure why they'd spend so much time developing that rendering around a mid-engine chassis with no way to get air to the engine bay?
    Shane Vacek
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    Offering a full line of GTM Upgrades and Custom Parts

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    President, Factory Five Racing Dave Smith's Avatar
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    Maybe I can help.

    The images above from the video are incidental images from our VR project that affects the GTM, The Gen 3 Coupe chassis and eventually ALL our designs, or at least the ones that need to evolve. One of the projects I've committed a ton of resources to is VR design. Not just drawings, but rather full CAD design that goes all the way from dimensioned chassis/suspension/engine/drivetrain etc to full surfaced shapes. Problem is that drawings, renderings and even scale models are absolutely NOT a useful tool to determine what a car will look like. I know people are going to disagree, but this is coming from personal firsthand experience. All the cool drawings in the world have a vague connection to what the end product looks like after real world math and real-estate management arrives. Sorry to burst your bubble, but that car drawing you fell in love with is a true mirage.

    The 818 process where we did scale models proved that. A company that I am one of three founders of record in (Local Motors) has definitively proven that making cars from design sketches and crowd-sourced designs is an abject failure. Almost ALL (and maybe all) of the cool drawings and cocepts that Local Motors collected were really not manufacturable in some way and worse yet, IF made, they actually never closely resemble the original concept, which angers the original sketch/designer who had made things look cool but without rules of time and space that apply to this dimension. "They messed up MY design is the mantra but the blame lies in the difference between flat paper or monitor and reality. Remember when they made a Barbie doll in life size with exact dimensions? The life-sized girl was a cartoonish freak with massive 60" bust line and a 10" waist (said for effect, but it was all wrong). It's not linear with proportions and what looks good.

    My personal feeling is that you really cannot know what something will really look like.. we've learned thru so much work that the ONLY way to determine if a car will look good is to make a full-size, ride height, correct proportion body shape. Even then, without wheels, tires, glass, trim, etc, it STILL is hard to make a call and really know what a car will look like. VR is the experiment. Can we make the decision to go forward with a design/shape without spending 2 years in shaping. The VR design is dimensioned, so it is a print-button away from full size dimensionally correct body shape plug (from which molds can be made immediately). Without this tool, the body shape will always be a long term laborious process and will limit what we can do as a company since chassis always outstrips body in the process. Frankly everything else is faster even when added all together than time in shaping. Some of the leading car companies like Ferrari, etc are obviously doing this but with tools and resources far in excess of what we can afford. Our challenge is to be able to make decisions and shape in VR and if the output is close to the digital world version, we will have accelerated our ability to launch new and modified designs.

    What you see above may or may not ever see production, but the process is the deliverable. Hope that helps.

    And hell yeah I'm making a modern body for the Gen 3 Coupe chassis and it will be our own design fully, not the Shelby GR1, or anyone else's. The ONLY front engine supercar that I would consider an "exotic" supercar is the Aston Martin Vulcan. Wheelbase considerations among a million have to all work into this equation and Jim Schenck is the most talented guy in the world at making that work.
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    It's looking good. I'm glad to see the improved cad-cam tech being used on the body, and the design work looks much improved from the past in the pics of the VR. This could take FFR to a new level of quality and ease of build if done correctly. (And Value)I'm staying tuned.

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    Senior Member Presto51's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Smith View Post
    And hell yeah I'm making a modern body for the Gen 3 Coupe chassis and it will be our own design fully, not the Shelby GR1, or anyone else's. The ONLY front engine supercar that I would consider an "exotic" supercar is the Aston Martin Vulcan. Wheelbase considerations among a million have to all work into this equation and Jim Schenck is the most talented guy in the world at making that work.
    When people ask why I like Factory Five Racing? When you get the owner that takes the time to explain things, well that says a lot .

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    Senior Member shinn497's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeAIII View Post

    That engine is certainly between the front tires.
    Wait that isn't the back.?!
    You are right man. I'm dumb sometimes.

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    Senior Member shinn497's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Smith View Post
    Maybe I can help.

    The images above from the video are incidental images from our VR project that affects the GTM, The Gen 3 Coupe chassis and eventually ALL our designs, or at least the ones that need to evolve. One of the projects I've committed a ton of resources to is VR design. Not just drawings, but rather full CAD design that goes all the way from dimensioned chassis/suspension/engine/drivetrain etc to full surfaced shapes. Problem is that drawings, renderings and even scale models are absolutely NOT a useful tool to determine what a car will look like. I know people are going to disagree, but this is coming from personal firsthand experience. All the cool drawings in the world have a vague connection to what the end product looks like after real world math and real-estate management arrives. Sorry to burst your bubble, but that car drawing you fell in love with is a true mirage.

    The 818 process where we did scale models proved that. A company that I am one of three founders of record in (Local Motors) has definitively proven that making cars from design sketches and crowd-sourced designs is an abject failure. Almost ALL (and maybe all) of the cool drawings and cocepts that Local Motors collected were really not manufacturable in some way and worse yet, IF made, they actually never closely resemble the original concept, which angers the original sketch/designer who had made things look cool but without rules of time and space that apply to this dimension. "They messed up MY design is the mantra but the blame lies in the difference between flat paper or monitor and reality. Remember when they made a Barbie doll in life size with exact dimensions? The life-sized girl was a cartoonish freak with massive 60" bust line and a 10" waist (said for effect, but it was all wrong). It's not linear with proportions and what looks good.

    My personal feeling is that you really cannot know what something will really look like.. we've learned thru so much work that the ONLY way to determine if a car will look good is to make a full-size, ride height, correct proportion body shape. Even then, without wheels, tires, glass, trim, etc, it STILL is hard to make a call and really know what a car will look like. VR is the experiment. Can we make the decision to go forward with a design/shape without spending 2 years in shaping. The VR design is dimensioned, so it is a print-button away from full size dimensionally correct body shape plug (from which molds can be made immediately). Without this tool, the body shape will always be a long term laborious process and will limit what we can do as a company since chassis always outstrips body in the process. Frankly everything else is faster even when added all together than time in shaping. Some of the leading car companies like Ferrari, etc are obviously doing this but with tools and resources far in excess of what we can afford. Our challenge is to be able to make decisions and shape in VR and if the output is close to the digital world version, we will have accelerated our ability to launch new and modified designs.

    What you see above may or may not ever see production, but the process is the deliverable. Hope that helps.

    And hell yeah I'm making a modern body for the Gen 3 Coupe chassis and it will be our own design fully, not the Shelby GR1, or anyone else's. The ONLY front engine supercar that I would consider an "exotic" supercar is the Aston Martin Vulcan. Wheelbase considerations among a million have to all work into this equation and Jim Schenck is the most talented guy in the world at making that work.
    Dave made a post dave made a post!!!! Also new Modern Gen 3 body!!!!

    This is exciting.

    On a side note. Looking back at the process for the 818. I think it was kind of cray and a lot of people had really outlandish expectations. i remember I had the pleasure of talking to jim once and he said that most of the designs weer infeasible, and I can understand that. I think it is cool you guys are exploring new technologies to help your process and hopefully make future original FFR designs even that much better.
    Last edited by shinn497; 03-09-2018 at 07:20 PM.

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    Thanks Dave!!!!! Only part of factory five i'm involved in is building my 818, but dammit you make me feel like part of the in-crowd!

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    Senior Member AC Bill's Avatar
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    Time for FFR to get back to an American built classic model, like the roadster, which made for the company's success in the first place.

    I'd love to see this beauty refined and made available from FFR.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Smith View Post
    Maybe I can help.
    My personal feeling is that you really cannot know what something will really look like.. we've learned thru so much work that the ONLY way to determine if a car will look good is to make a full-size, ride height, correct proportion body shape. Even then, without wheels, tires, glass, trim, etc, it STILL is hard to make a call and really know what a car will look like. VR is the experiment. Can we make the decision to go forward with a design/shape without spending 2 years in shaping.**** The VR design is dimensioned, so it is a print-button away from full size dimensionally correct body shape plug (from which molds can be made immediately). ****

    And hell yeah I'm making a modern body for the Gen 3 Coupe chassis and it will be our own design fully. Wheelbase considerations among a million have to all work into this equation and Jim Schenck is the most talented guy in the world at making that work.
    I did enjoy all the wild guesses above that must have been caused by a batch of the FF Kool-Aid that was around long enough to ferment
    BUT;
    I snipped it down to an amen on Jim's ability and the other two points that really caught my attention.
    A new supercar by Dave's standards will be a fun thing to watch evolve especially on the Daytona wheelbase and hopefully be an easier
    build than the GTM's
    The comment that a new design is "a print button away" is very cool. I hadn't given any thought to how much 3D printers have grown
    in their ability to create a car sized object. Is that printer already a reality ?
    Dale

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    He's probably talking about having it cut in high-density foam as a plug with a multi-axis cutting machine and then making molds. There is a 3d printed car already but it's not a realistic platform for auto construction yet. th.jpgThere is also long strand carbon fiber 3d printing and metal 3d printing technology in use now.Screenshot (695).pngWorlds-2nd-3D-Printed-Metal-Gun1-1024x768.jpgthdf.jpg

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    Member CobraboyDR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ac bill View Post
    time for ffr to get back to an american built classic model, like the roadster, which made for the company's success in the first place.

    I'd love to see this beauty refined and made available from ffr.


    yes! Yes! Yes!

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    Quote Originally Posted by carbon fiber View Post
    He's probably talking about having it cut in high-density foam as a plug with a multi-axis cutting machine and then making molds. ]
    I took the phrase "press print" more literal in that it would be a printed plug that molds could be made from.
    But I can see where a 5 axis machine could cut a HD foam model as well. Now that plug would be fun to make an amphi-car out of.
    Dale

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Smith View Post
    Maybe I can help.

    The images above from the video are incidental images from our VR project that affects the GTM, The Gen 3 Coupe chassis and eventually ALL our designs, or at least the ones that need to evolve. One of the projects I've committed a ton of resources to is VR design. Not just drawings, but rather full CAD design that goes all the way from dimensioned chassis/suspension/engine/drivetrain etc to full surfaced shapes. Problem is that drawings, renderings and even scale models are absolutely NOT a useful tool to determine what a car will look like. I know people are going to disagree, but this is coming from personal firsthand experience. All the cool drawings in the world have a vague connection to what the end product looks like after real world math and real-estate management arrives. Sorry to burst your bubble, but that car drawing you fell in love with is a true mirage.

    The 818 process where we did scale models proved that. A company that I am one of three founders of record in (Local Motors) has definitively proven that making cars from design sketches and crowd-sourced designs is an abject failure. Almost ALL (and maybe all) of the cool drawings and cocepts that Local Motors collected were really not manufacturable in some way and worse yet, IF made, they actually never closely resemble the original concept, which angers the original sketch/designer who had made things look cool but without rules of time and space that apply to this dimension. "They messed up MY design is the mantra but the blame lies in the difference between flat paper or monitor and reality. Remember when they made a Barbie doll in life size with exact dimensions? The life-sized girl was a cartoonish freak with massive 60" bust line and a 10" waist (said for effect, but it was all wrong). It's not linear with proportions and what looks good.

    My personal feeling is that you really cannot know what something will really look like.. we've learned thru so much work that the ONLY way to determine if a car will look good is to make a full-size, ride height, correct proportion body shape. Even then, without wheels, tires, glass, trim, etc, it STILL is hard to make a call and really know what a car will look like. VR is the experiment. Can we make the decision to go forward with a design/shape without spending 2 years in shaping. The VR design is dimensioned, so it is a print-button away from full size dimensionally correct body shape plug (from which molds can be made immediately). Without this tool, the body shape will always be a long term laborious process and will limit what we can do as a company since chassis always outstrips body in the process. Frankly everything else is faster even when added all together than time in shaping. Some of the leading car companies like Ferrari, etc are obviously doing this but with tools and resources far in excess of what we can afford. Our challenge is to be able to make decisions and shape in VR and if the output is close to the digital world version, we will have accelerated our ability to launch new and modified designs.

    What you see above may or may not ever see production, but the process is the deliverable. Hope that helps.

    And hell yeah I'm making a modern body for the Gen 3 Coupe chassis and it will be our own design fully, not the Shelby GR1, or anyone else's. The ONLY front engine supercar that I would consider an "exotic" supercar is the Aston Martin Vulcan. Wheelbase considerations among a million have to all work into this equation and Jim Schenck is the most talented guy in the world at making that work.
    What's that warm tingling sensation I feel up my butt........what's that you say..........Sunshine, I never have had that feeling before. So that's what it feels like.......roflmbo!!!! Just kidding Dave, just messing with you....lol

    With today's technology, 3D printing, 3D Cad etc. It sure makes things a lot faster, easier and way more accurate. With that being said, one still must understand design principles, such as what a true 3D perspective is and actually how to do it on paper, not just letting the Cad software do it for you. Same goes for doing "lofting". The term "lofting" is mostly referred to doing boats and ships. Being able to do a design on paper in the x,y and z axis in order to get your sections from front to back, side to side, top to bottom in order to build a full scale model built using lofting, such as a boat. Same idea is used for doing cars and planes but not called lofting, for a car it is either called a body buck, shaping buck or a design buck, not sure what they call it for a airplane.

    Custom coach builders for the most part still use wood bucks for shaping metal. Even GM still does clay models.

    A few examples



    Here is an article on "How to Build Your Own Supercar" on Core77 website using a car buck
    http://www.core77.com/posts/42285/Ho...r-Own-Supercar

    Point is you can actually build something from paper and it will look very very close to what was on paper, it just takes a very long time to do it, years in most cases.

    example (something I did a long time ago)

    Last edited by Vman7; 03-11-2018 at 05:00 PM.

  31. #31
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    Is it just me or does this mystery car look a little like the Mclaren 720S?

    https://www.caranddriver.com/mclaren/720s
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    Senior Member ram_g's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Smith View Post
    And hell yeah I'm making a modern body for the Gen 3 Coupe chassis and it will be our own design fully, not the Shelby GR1, or anyone else's.
    That may be great for FFR's image and marketing but in many states that have implemented SEMA model legislation it'll make it harder to register that car. E.g. in Texas it is easy now to register a replica of something (anything) 25 years old or older without having to worry about emissions compliance, but if it isn't a replica or if it resembles a newer car, it needs to pass annual emissions testing, implying a modern powertrain with OBD2, cats, etc.
    FFR Mk3.1 #6720. Carb'd 302. Fun.

  33. #33
    KDubU's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CobraboyDR View Post
    yes! Yes! Yes!

    No, no and no!
    Kyle

    Complete Kit pickup 09/05/2015, 351w, QF680, 3.55, 3-Link, 15" Halibrands with MT's, Painted Viking blue with Wimbledon white stripes on 03/15/2017.

  34. #34
    Senior Member Presto51's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CobraboyDR View Post
    yes! Yes! Yes!
    Quote Originally Posted by KDubU View Post
    No, no and no!
    It's already being done http://cheetahevolution.com/. If you want one there you go

    Ron
    "May you be in heaven a full half hour before the Devil knows you're dead"

  35. #35
    Senior Member AC Bill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDubU View Post
    No, no and no!
    Party pooper..lol.
    If I wanted a ricer looking car I could just go buy a NSX.

    The Cheetah is even rarer then the Cobra. It's all American, and uses a American V8, that sounds like a American V8 should.

    The one Presto mentions is sold turn-key, and not something you build at home. I believe FFR could provide a quality kit for this historic Icon.


  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by ram_g View Post
    That may be great for FFR's image and marketing but in many states that have implemented SEMA model legislation it'll make it harder to register that car. E.g. in Texas it is easy now to register a replica of something (anything) 25 years old or older without having to worry about emissions compliance, but if it isn't a replica or if it resembles a newer car, it needs to pass annual emissions testing, implying a modern powertrain with OBD2, cats, etc.
    No different than the GTM really.
    Last edited by JKolbfleisch; 03-12-2018 at 11:20 PM.

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