Ongoing Coyote Problems

[tims210]

Hello members:

I'm new to this site and I hope I'm welcomed. I say this because I don't own an FFR cobra, but a Backdraft. I joined here since my car has a Coyote engine and this forum has a dedicated coyote section which the Club Cobra site doesn't. Although I receive very helpful guidance from there, I wanted to broaden my knowledge base by talking with others here. I'm going to paste a thread below that I started on Club Cobra. I'm in desperate need of help.


I'm at my wits end trying to resolve an issue that's been ongoing for a while. To start, I have a gen 1 motor with 3000 miles on it. I'm experiencing fluctuating hesitation upon hard throttle. It's not a linear hesitation. It's more like a sputtering hesitation. I also have sporadic pop coming from the exhaust at idle. Not a backfire but an intermittent spit/pop kind of sound. The exhaust isn't blowing any smoke. I also have knocking at lower RPM's under normal throttle. My gas is fresh with the correct grade. I changed the mass airflow sensor and no luck. I looked for vacuum leaks, but I can't find one unless I overlooked something. I pulled the spark plugs and they look normal to me. Oil pressure s good along with fuel pressure. My dealer was very gracious in giving guidance. I was told to data log my car using SCT Live Link. I have the Lund tune by the way. He was concerned about the following variable valve timing readings.

VVT exhaust bank 1: actual value -.12 min value -3.37 max value 31 Avg 7.0
VVT exhaust bank 2: actual value -.12 min value -1.4 max value 31 Avg 7.0
VVT intake bank 1: actual value 0.0 min value -47 max value 1.25 Avg -5.5
VVT intake bank 2: actual value .07 min value -47 max value 1.3 Avg -5.6

These numbers were logged going no more than 4500 RPM since the problem worried me. I backed off to prevent any possible damage. He claimed the banks shouldn't read this far apart from each other. Should only be a percent or two. The knocking is also reading on the log results, but the PCM is adjusting timing to compensate. The fuel trim numbers looked good since the engine wasn't calling for more fuel. We pretty much ruled out a clogged filter or pump issue. I don't understand why it's knocking in the first place. It's quite audible. I checked for any parts rattling against the engine to rule out false knocking. The only things I found were the chrome metal coil covers and hood prop rod. The covers did rattle so I put a small bead of RTV sealant under the corners and it stopped it. The prop rod was rattling against the metal oil fill cap. I wrapped some thin foam around it, and it fixed it. I plugged an OBD reader into the port and got no fault codes. I'm not sure if my problem has something to do with an electrical issue. I hope this doesn't have to do with a VCT solenoid. I don't know how I'm going to get the valve covers off given the very little room between them and the fender well.


Some of the feedback from Club Cobra mentioned checking electrical grounding. Made sense since Ford Performance mentioned that too. It's also been mentioned that grounding should run from the negative post of the battery which mine does. It was further mentioned that my engine may not be tuned correctly. I have the SCT scanner, given to me when I purchased the car, with the Lund tune loaded on it. I'm not sure if I should be resetting the PCM it in some manner and reloading the tune. I'm apprehensive to make tuning adjustments, with respect to loading and unloading, since I have little experience with that.

Any guidance is much appreciated.

Thanks,

Tim

[racingandfishing]

I'd also pop on over to here if you haven't:

https://www.mustang6g.com/forums/for...ust-tuning.62/

The forum is really for 2015 and up which would be Gen2, but a lot of these guys have experience with Gen1 as well. I believe you may want to provide more info, like is the motor modded, did you buy it new or used, when did the knocking start or has it always been there, etc.

Either way, hopefully someone here or there can help you out.

EDIT - I see you bought the car with the tune already loaded. Maybe Lund can provide more background on the motor since they did the tune.

[Bob Cowan]

Here's what I did:
1. Find a local tuner that really knows what they're doing.
2. Use a good program like EFI Live
3. Have it run on the dyno, and properly tuned.

Canned tunes from places like Lund are not bad, generally speaking. But you don't get much info out of them, either. You might also consider having it retuned to stock and see what happens. Your local Ford dealer can that for about $200 or so.

Until you know that the engine is tuned properly, and operating to specs, you're chasing ghosts.

Where did the engine come from? Was it used, or a new crate engine? It's a 8-10 year old engine. With only 3K miles, it's been sitting a lot. A compression and leak down test is not a bad idea, either. Simple and easy to do, gains a ton of good information.

[q4stix]

I also have knocking at lower RPM's under normal throttle...... (removed for simplicity).....
He was concerned about the following variable valve timing readings.

VVT exhaust bank 1: actual value -.12 min value -3.37 max value 31 Avg 7.0
VVT exhaust bank 2: actual value -.12 min value -1.4 max value 31 Avg 7.0
VVT intake bank 1: actual value 0.0 min value -47 max value 1.25 Avg -5.5
VVT intake bank 2: actual value .07 min value -47 max value 1.3 Avg -5.6

These numbers were logged going no more than 4500 RPM since the problem worried me. I backed off to prevent any possible damage. He claimed the banks shouldn't read this far apart from each other. Should only be a percent or two.

Knocking under light or low load isn't that uncommon but also shouldn't be frequent. Most factory tuned cars of any brand will register knock when idling or under light cruise but between the low loads, noise insulation, and catalyic converters it's never noticed. If the ECU is consistently pulling timing then the base table is too advanced.

The cam phasing isn't far off at all. The averages are only .1 degree and the minimums on the exhaust cams may just be tolerances in the lock positions. The key would be variations between the exhaust cams or intake cams during operation which isn't shown here. From experience even a degree or two while ramping up the RPMs doesn't normally affect things.

My thoughts are along the lines of Bob Cowan has suggested. It may be an off the shelf tune loaded on your car and some adjustments need to be made. If the MAF is closer or farther from the trottle body than tuned it can affect things on acceleration. If the timing is adjusted for a stock setup then that can be causing the knocking you read and the popping you hear.

I'd either find a local tuner or get a custom tune from Lund specific to your car. If the PCM is adjusting your timing, the cam phasing works, and your fuel trims are fine then it's probably a tune issue and not a mechanical issue unless the issue just started after not being an issue at all.

[toadster]

i had a similar experience on a totally different car, it ended up being a bad throttle body

[Railroad]

The SCT X4 tuner should have the stock tune in it, which can be put back into the ECU. You will need a laptop, I think. It has been a long time since tuning mine.
The Gen 1 runs pretty good on the shipped stock tune. An exhaust leak can cause some popping out the exh pipes.
History and mods on the engine will be helpful in diagnosis.
You can real time monitor a lot of parameters on the tuner and more on the laptop.
good luck,

[tims210]

Thanks for all of the input folks. After reading the replies I thought I should add. My car's engine is a crate motor from Ford Performance. It was new when installed. I purchased the car on consignment with 900 miles from a reputable dealer. I don't know if there were mods done other than the tune. All seems straight forward to me. I'm aware of a MAF position playing a role in tunning. The intake runner tube is quite lengthy which puts the MAF somewhat downstream. I agree that the motor has low mileage, but I ran the engine often, during off-season, in my garage to operating temps. The knocking was there since purchase. The exhaust popping showed itself years ago but went away for a while. Now it's back. As far as how long I've noticed the hesitation, I'm embarrassed to say that I've never leaned into the throttle very hard. I've babied it to the point that most would laugh. The only thing I've done recently is change the air filter. On my setup there is no room to slide the filter off the intake tube. You have to remove it by removing the throttle body. There was only around 5MM of play to get it off. I thought I may have damaged the throttle body seal, that mates with the intake manifold, when reinstalled. I removed it again to inspect the seal and all was good. Everything seats fine. Does something need to be reset after removing a throttle body and its connections including the MAF? I'd like to data log again and measure the exhaust cam or intake cam variation that was previously mentioned. The only cam related options I see on my Live Link logger are intake cam position desired, intake cam position duty cycle bank 1 and intake cam position duty cycle bank 2. Not sure if these will give the data needed. As far as the scanner goes, it's an SCT X3 3000. When I plug it in there are tune options. It says, "program vehicle". Then there are tune choices. Custom tune, strategy tune and return to stock. I didn't know what the strategy tune was, so I selected it to find more info. It said that tune was not supported. Under the custom tune, the options were "Lund", "mid power" and "canned". When I explored the Lund option, I had a choice of "keep previous options", "adjust options" and "skip options". Not familiar on how they work. I don't know if I should proceed with loading a tune from there again before I go with some of the routes previously mentioned. Is there a possibility that PCV valves can come into play? I had a past concern about engine over an under oiling. Don't know if excessive oil can pass through them and cause problems. A more specific discussion about my oiling concerns is one I started on Club Cobra. It can be seen here....

http://www.clubcobra.com/forums/back...te-owners.html

I realize a custom tune is best. I would only feel comfortable by bringing it back to my dealer for that. I'm not comfortable with people I don't know. Before I do that, I want to exhaust all possibilities of something I can fix on my own. I'm going to run this by Lund as well. For those who don't know, they don't take phone calls. Everything is by email only.

To Bob Cowen. I recognize your name from Club Cobra. Your posts there have helped me in the past. Thanks for stepping in here.

[tims210]

The SCT X4 tuner should have the stock tune in it, which can be put back into the ECU. You will need a laptop, I think. It has been a long time since tuning mine.
The Gen 1 runs pretty good on the shipped stock tune. An exhaust leak can cause some popping out the exh pipes.
History and mods on the engine will be helpful in diagnosis.
You can real time monitor a lot of parameters on the tuner and more on the laptop.
good luck,

I was told exhaust leaks can be a contributing factor. I checked at both the block and the header to side pipe flange. All looked clean and bolts were torqued tight.

[klawrence]

What air intake do you have ? When not using the air intake that comes with the Ford Control Pack a custom tune is highly recommended to account for the different air velocity across the MAF.

Done a few Gen1 coyotes and I can send you a data log of the one that I had in my 73 bronco to compare if ya like.

[tims210]

What air intake do you have ? When not using the air intake that comes with the Ford Control Pack a custom tune is highly recommended to account for the different air velocity across the MAF.

Done a few Gen1 coyotes and I can send you a data log of the one that I had in my 73 bronco to compare if ya like.

Don't know the brand but here's a picture.abl-la.jpg


Sure. I'd love the data log. I have mine as well showing the values of the items I was asked to check for. It's saved as an Excel file from Live Link.

[weendoggy]

That intake looks big. The tube may be the incorrect size for the MAF and will give you issues as klawrence mentions. Also, the MAF needs to be installed right with the "scoop" to the air inlet and black plastic part facing UP. It looks like that is o.k. from the picture, but be sure to check. I just did a Gen1 swap in my Mustang and have no issues at all. Running a stock Ford tune from the PCM as well. Make sure the PCM has a good ground (check pinning) and I run mine from the PCM to the chassis and on to the battery. Plus have battery to block ground and two other smaller block to chassis grounds. If all the wiring was done right, I'd be looking at the tune as well.

[Railroad]

Lund advised me the air filter should not be in air flow as radiator fan wash or open air blast as yours. This can cause irregular engine running at lower speeds. From Lund, not me.

I feel confident an air flow straightener would correct this issue.

Lund can send you a file for data logging, that should cover and related issues.
The most concerning part of your problem is the knocking.
Any chance you can record the sound?
Why are you concerned with cam timing?
SVT people might be able to answer some of your questions, although they usually give short answers, like yes or no.

[tims210]

Lund advised me the air filter should not be in air flow as radiator fan wash or open air blast as yours. This can cause irregular engine running at lower speeds. From Lund, not me.

I feel confident an air flow straightener would correct this issue.

Lund can send you a file for data logging, that should cover and related issues.
The most concerning part of your problem is the knocking.
Any chance you can record the sound?
Why are you concerned with cam timing?
SVT people might be able to answer some of your questions, although they usually give short answers, like yes or no.

I agree with your comment, but my setup has an airflow restrictor plate that is under and in front of the air filter. See attached. Air Filter Restriction Plate.jpg

[klawrence]

I use a honeycomb plate in my intake tube to straighten the air flow for the MAF, Here is my datalog

[tims210]

I use a honeycomb plate in my intake tube to straighten the air flow for the MAF, Here is my datalog

Thanks. How did you did you set up that link to your data log? I want to post mine (Excel format) but I can't attach my file.

[klawrence]

thats a share link from one drive

[tims210]

I decided to tinker around more today. I pulled the PCV valve, vapor hose and the fitting at the intake that the hose clicks into. I noticed quite a bit of oil at the intake fitting. Unless this is normal, I'm concerned. The PCV valve clicks back and forth when you shake it. From past experience that would be normal operation? If something is wrong, please let me know how to proceed. Thanks.

IMG_0367.jpgIMG_0368.jpg

[tims210]

Forgot to mention something. I didn't realize there was a cavity at the front of the motor that gave access to the underside of the intake manifold. A rodent must have gotten in there to store some reserves for the winter. See photo. I snaked an inspection camera in there and discovered them. They could have been rattling against the knock sensors leading to unneeded timing adjustments by the PCM. I tied a small flexible hose to the camera arm, then to my shop vac, and surgically removed them. I should have gone to med school.

IMG_0370.jpg

[progmgr1]

I decided to tinker around more today. I pulled the PCV valve, vapor hose and the fitting at the intake that the hose clicks into. I noticed quite a bit of oil at the intake fitting. Unless this is normal, I'm concerned. The PCV valve clicks back and forth when you shake it. From past experience that would be normal operation? If something is wrong, please let me know how to proceed. Thanks.

IMG_0367.jpgIMG_0368.jpg

This is a common issue, nothing to worry about. Several on the Forum have incorporated an Oil Separator to recover the oil vapor that gets sucked out through the PCV valve. This is the one I bought from Summit: https://www.summitracing.com/parts/jlt-3011p-b It was branded "JLT" when I got it, but I see they are now labeled "J&L". However, it's the same part number and probably still manufactured by JLT Performance. It's a direct plug-in on my Gen 2 Coyote, has the correct Ford fittings and looks like a factory installed part. In any case, there are similar products available from many sources - I doubt it matters much. My car is not on the road yet, but others have reported recovering a few tablespoons of oil after a month of heavy use.

HTH Keith HR #894