I see a lot of you are working on options for the shifter.
I personally do not like the stock cable going forward and looping around. I would rather have a setup that goes straight back. But I don't really like the cable idea either.
Have one of you ever thought about making an actual linkage like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HRDbc2FTIx8&t=8s
I know that on the 818, since the shifter is centered on the car vs on the edge like a single seater car like on the video, it would take a couple extra joints, but I would think this would be very responsive and solid shifting.
What do they do on Porsches, Lambos, Ferraris, or any mid-engine cars?
what do you guys think?
i will be putting a 6 speed in.
thanks
Mechie3 didnt you want another project?
Actually I started by studying various other methods used in mid engine layouts, then considering my shifter construction. I considered a hydraulic type system but abandoned that due to some unknown reliability concerns about the seals, etc. There are other methods to transfer motion but I decided I like the more direct approach of shafts & heim joints. I used a 1:1 ratio on all levers to transfer motion. By adjusting my heim joints, I was able to synchronize my shift pattern with the transmission detents. The resultant feel is not much different from a top mount shifter. Every gear position is well defined, no ambiguity about which gear is engaged. Btw, I used tubing for my shafts rather than solid rod, due to weight concerns. It's simple and straight forward and should yield many miles of trouble free operation. Hope this helps.
Interesting that you considered hydraulic. I have slowly pursued this and have all the parts I need now to put something together. Usually don't post until I have it working - but unless I get caught out somehow, this one should end up in my car. My biggest concern was how to vent the plumbing to handle thermal volume changes in the fluid. Designed some flow operated vent/shuttle valves but am now leaning toward an electric solenoid that seals the system whenever the shift knob is being handled. Expecting I'll have it at least to a point of testing the cylinders and vent device in about 6 weeks. All home brew as usual.
Art, I remember reading recently about that, or maybe someone else? My only concern with so many home brew parts, is the possibility of a failure far from home. I'm planning on seeing the country with my car and am therefore planning for potential field repairs. Maybe? Hope not!
Actually I started by studying various other methods used in mid engine layouts, then considering my shifter construction. I considered a hydraulic type system but abandoned that due to some unknown reliability concerns about the seals, etc. There are other methods to transfer motion but I decided I like the more direct approach of shafts & heim joints. I used a 1:1 ratio on all levers to transfer motion. By adjusting my heim joints, I was able to synchronize my shift pattern with the transmission detents. The resultant feel is not much different from a top mount shifter. Every gear position is well defined, no ambiguity about which gear is engaged. Btw, I used tubing for my shafts rather than solid rod, due to weight concerns. It's simple and straight forward and should yield many miles of trouble free operation. Hope this helps.
Any chance you have more pictures to get my thinking going? How it hooks up to the trans? What you've done for/to a shifter? I just put mine together today with the super long cables, and it's not great. Very tough to engage gears, too. Very sad to me that my Hyundai Accent feels so much better. TIA.
Any chance you have more pictures to get my thinking going? How it hooks up to the trans? What you've done for/to a shifter? I just put mine together today with the super long cables, and it's not great. Very tough to engage gears, too. Very sad to me that my Hyundai Accent feels so much better. TIA.
Art, I remember reading recently about that, or maybe someone else? My only concern with so many home brew parts, is the possibility of a failure far from home. I'm planning on seeing the country with my car and am therefore planning for potential field repairs. Maybe? Hope not!
A fail out on the road, even not far from home is never fun. Your linkage design has me thinking/rethinking. Probably forge ahead but hmmmm....
I attended a car show (caffeine & classics) in Auckland NZ on 31st Dec. I found a mid-engined RWD Mini utility, utilising a 3.5 rover V8 bolted to a WRX 5speed transmission. So first thing I investigated was the gear shifting mechanism. This system uses a single solid rod - using 3/8 drive socket universals (drilled out and secured firmly). Overall the feel and engagement is 20 times better than my own 818 (with rear mounted cables). I will investigate copying and utilising this simple solution... Mini shifter 1.jpgminishifter2.jpg
You may consider using Apex universal joints. They are industrial grade and can be purchased with a rubber boot cover to exclude dirt and road debris. Also they have less slop than socket universals. Someone else has also gone this direction, just don't remember who. Might be a GTM guy. It should work
That mini setup looks pretty slick, too, but I wonder what it felt like on the side to side. seems like it would need a lot more torque at the shifter with that rod being so far offset from the transmission.
Looks like my fuel tank is going to be in the way. Lance, are you using a cell? The top of my tank is higher than the tunnel. I'm thinking about buying some pvc to mock it up. Figure out how many universal joints it would take. Seems like the kind of job where fewer = better.
That mini setup looks pretty slick, too, but I wonder what it felt like on the side to side. seems like it would need a lot more torque at the shifter with that rod being so far offset from the transmission.
Looks like my fuel tank is going to be in the way. Lance, are you using a cell? The top of my tank is higher than the tunnel. I'm thinking about buying some pvc to mock it up. Figure out how many universal joints it would take. Seems like the kind of job where fewer = better.
I'm using a custom front Boyd tank. It sits in the vee between the front suspension.
That's one of the things I like about your setup. Universals aren't cheap, either. I took a look at some swivel sockets on my way home, and you're right about the slop. I thought maybe I just put too much abuse on the ones in my toolbox. Nope. Put two or three of those in a row, and we're not much better off than the FF solution as far as play goes.
Last edited by turbomacncheese; 03-25-2018 at 07:57 PM.
ok, so I found this. Lotus Elise with suby drivetrain with solid linkage.
What do you guys think?
Looks cool and seems to be working in that. Seat is centered so, straighter route but could probably still be done. http://www.speedhunters.com/2015/05/...0-lotus-elise/
We hate the 818 shift mechanism. There is nothing inherently wrong with push/pull cables, I've used them for 30 or 40 years in non automotive applications. There is a lot misinformation floating around about these systems. So a couple of facts about cable controls.
All linkage systems have lost motion (slop). This is caused by clearance between the moving parts. This is even true for solid linkages like Lance's. (though Lance's probably very minimal).
Lost motion on push/pull cable systems has almost nothing to do with the length of the cable, but instead has everything to do with the total bend angle over the length. As the cable moves from pull to push the cable moves from the inside of the conduit to the outside. The clearance between the conduit and the cable determines how small a radius the cable can bend without binding. As the conduit bends the cross section becomes elliptical decreasing the clearance between the inside of the bend and the outside. Sorry....Pretty deep in the weeds.
Bottom line is the primary problem with the FFR cable is not the length, but the total bend angle as the cable snakes around the car.
We have this on our list of challenges to address this year and hope to have a solution that we can make available to others before the end of the year.
Linkage would be nicer but it's just too much of a PITA in the 818, especially when you weigh in the fact that the shift works and feels fine if done correctly:
1. Adjustable shifter
2. Shift cables that go straight out the back of the shifter, over the engine, and down to the transmission as straight as possible (as opposed to routing them like FFR does)
3. High quality, custom-length shift cables
4. High quality fittings/bearings on all the linkages in the setup (where you connect the cables to the shifter and the shift linkage)
5. Using a bell crank at the transmission end instead of having one cable coming in from the side
Do all the above and you won't have zero slop, but it will feel just fine and be much easier to pull off than a full-on linkage system. Mechie provides the linkages and cables for the rear. You just need to either buy the billet shifter or get an MR2 one off eBay.
I did mine myself and you can see details in my build thread. It doesn't feel like a brand new sports car but it feels really good.
I can't make lance's solution work on my ride without sending some rod below the frame. The exhaust is in the way trying to go straight back. The fuel tank is in the way for going low, which means I'd have to raise my console pretty high to get over it. I used some conduit to mock up a solid link that would go from the shifter, up the tunnel, past the fuel tank, over the engine and down to the transmission. Kinda stupid looking, but actually it feels ok, even just rigged together.
Immediately apparent problems: 1) it swings about 5 inches left to right over the throttle body, so the stock intercooler is out. I think there is plenty of room to run pipes up from somewhere, though, so not a deal killer. 2) the linkage would have to be very stiff to select the gears. My conduit flexed and couldn't actually select gears from the cabin. I was able to select them by grabbing the bit over the engine and pushing/pulling though. 3) a linkage stiff enough to select gears is likely to be heavy enough that the inertia from shifting even somewhat quickly can't possibly be good for the transmission. All in all, I think it's a no-go.
Still looking for something that keeps my budget in good shape. Using the shifting setup as provided is simply not on the table, though. I may have to just spend the $250 on materials, cables, and shifter, and cut some from the body work. Looking for ideas, if you have any. I have a MIG welder and a pretty good metal shop available.
I'm going to check out that elise now, and see what they did.
I look forward to seeing what you come up with. I have not bought any Forma accessories yet and this may be the first one! I like Lance's solution, but it is going to require some serious re-routing to avoid my stock location gas tank.
Wonder what it would take to go along the front firewall out the side where one of the radiator pipes go. Anybody in here smarter than me want to bend their brains at it?
Is there a shifter with rear cables that’ll work with both the 5mt and 6mt? I believe FFR’s billet shifter still goes forward. Does Wayne still offer the rear cable billet shifter for the 6mt? I recall that not being any good for 5mt’s. Is there a way to make the mr2 setup work with both? I have a feeling I’ll end up going 6mt once I break a couple of 5mt’s and don’t want waste time or money on a setup for the 5mt.
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818 SRX - #91
Arrived 01/02/2014
First Start 10/31/2016
First Drive 05/22/2017
Registered 10/25/2019 BRAP818
As Chris@forma said, it's the bends and number of bends that cause problems. I use an mr2 SW20 shifter (not the MR2 spyder shifter) 8' cables, and my own bell crank to get minimal bends (quantity and angle). It's a pretty tight setup and has some adjustability with the throw ratio.
The biggest issue is getting the SW20 shifter. They used to be $20 on ebay, now they're $100+. I haven't found other linkages yet that go in the right direction.
Join mr2oc or mr2 Facebook groups. You can still get them for 20 or so bucks. Especially if you look for 85-92 shifters as all the mr2 guys want the 93+ or TRD unites( shorter shifter to short for 818 in my opinon).
I have 2 bends in my line the ones coming out of the car in front of engine and then the turn to the trans. I use the zero decibel shifter and find my 818 shifts the same as my 2004 STI with the stock STI shifter.
FYI, there were 4 progressively shorter-throw aftermarket shifters that were available for the MR2 shifter that many people are using. I didn't know that when I bought one from e-Bay and it turned out to be the shortest-throw version. With Mechie 3's beautiful bell cranks, my throws are VERY crisp and short while still retaining a positive feel between the gate planes.
Blwalker. Where is your E brake in relation to shifter? I have an MR2 shifter that I never installed. It sat really low but seemed that my arm would be hitting E brake handle. If I used your higher placement of MR2 piece it might work without interfering with E brake.
Davis
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Originally Posted by lance corsi
