Resin Bonded Bodies?

[cv2065]

Hey everyone. Was looking over at the ERA site, and came across the fact that they 'resin bond' their bodies to the frame vs. FF using rubber mounted bodies. ERA claims that rubber mounted bodies get stress cracks over time and have cowl shake. Can anyone explain the difference between two and the pros and cons? I would seem to me that something that is resin bonded to a frame would be more rigid, but I'm sure there has to be a down side as well?

[Jeff Kleiner]

FFR bodies are not "rubber mounted". Factory Five bodies simply form the exterior shape and are not a stressed member of the chassis envelope whereas a body that's bonded to the frame is. If you look at the two chassis without their bodies you'll note their significant differences. No matter who you are dealing with when a manufacturer speaks of a competitor you should probably take it with a grain of salt.

Jeff

[BEAR-AvHistory]

Original 427 Cobra Space Frame:

FFR Mk-IV 427 Cobra Space Frame:

ERA Body on Frame Chassis:


FFR body just keeps the wind out, not involved with the structural support of the car.

Fully driveable Go-Cart:

[cv2065]

FFR bodies are not "rubber mounted". Factory Five bodies simply form the exterior shape and are not a stressed member of the chassis envelope whereas a body that's bonded to the frame is. If you look at the two chassis without their bodies you'll note their significant differences. No matter who you are dealing with when a manufacturer speaks of a competitor you should probably take it with a grain of salt.

Jeff

Yeah, I'm aware of competitive BS but interesting that ERA can just come out and make these claims on their website if they are bold faced lies. Now that I'm looking, I don't see anything on the FF website that says anything about rubber mounted bodies. Guess it begs the question as to why a company would 'bond' their bodies to the frame?

[cv2065]

Thanks for the pics Kevin!

[BEAR-AvHistory]

Yeah, I'm aware of competitive BS but interesting that ERA can just come out and make these claims on their website if they are bold faced lies. Now that I'm looking, I don't see anything on the FF website that says anything about rubber mounted bodies. Guess it begs the question as to why a company would 'bond' their bodies to the frame?

They are using the body as a stressed member of the chassis. Its providing rigidity that the frame alone does not have. No other reason to bond it if the chassis is strong enough to stand alone.

EDIT: ERA says this

"Because the inner panels of body rivet and bond to the chassis, we have created a semi-unitized structure that extends from the front of the engine compartment through the rocker panels and along the rear of the passenger compartment. Assembling the car with this degree of integration may take a little longer, but you end up with a much stiffer overall structure. "

[Jim1855]

FYI: Superformance bodies are bonded to the frame. This forms a very solid construction. But, it makes repairs very expensive and removing the body is way beyond what anyone really wants to do; takes interesting chemistry and lots of mechanical effort from what I've been told.

I expect that the bolted on FFR body will be easier to replace if damaged.

I expect to use some form of rubber (a generic term) isolation in strategic locations on my FFR Challenge Car build. But I'm a longs ways from mounting the body.

As Jeff K said, when a manufacturer speaks of their cars/processes you should take it with a grain of salt, well something like that. The London Cobra Show is a great place to evaluate the differences for yourself.

Jim

[cv2065]

Just trying to pull fact from fiction and get all the details guys. Thanks for the pics and explaining in a little more detail. Money transfer for my old car should arrive next week if all goes well. Then we will be in business to get my kit ordered! I'm sure that I'll have plenty more questions before and after!

[BEAR-AvHistory]

I expect its the use of the words "rubber mounted" that ERA has on their site. When most think about rubber mounting you think about rubber isolating biscuits that body mounting bolts pass through placed between a car body & frame. In the FFR world some rubber is used at some points between the body & some space frame parts but the body is free floating on them.

You can see most of them in the Go-cart picture I posted. The upper edges along the trunk. From the trunk down along the rear cockpit bulkhead, across the firewall & along the radiator intake tunnel.

Read the ERA vs FFR blurb on their web site & some word games are being played. Its a nice car the owners seem to like them but they seem to be having trouble with FFR's leading sales position. I like the Chevy version of the Cobra replica more then the Cadillac version replica, as claimed by some ERA owners.

[cv2065]

I expect its the use of the words "rubber mounted" that ERA has on their site. When most think about rubber mounting you think about rubber isolating biscuits that body mounting bolts pass through placed between a car body & frame. In the FFR world some rubber is used at some points between the body & some space frame parts but the body is free floating on them.

That's exactly what I was thinking. Either the body mounts on a car, as you suggested, or on my Harley Dyna's V-twin, where rubber isolates the engine and gives it a 'shake' at idle. Thanks for the clarity. The Chevy versus Cadillac comparison seems extreme from what I'm seeing.

[CobraboyDR]

Its a nice car the owners seem to like them but they seem to be having trouble with FFR's leading sales position.

I doubt their customer base has similar motivations.

ERA owners have deep pockets and strive for authenticity. They aren't necessarily builders. Like SPF owners, they want to drive as near an original as possible. Their motivation is not the building process, track days, restorods, etc.

FFR are for builders, "Built, not Bought." And for that large group, FFR is awesome with engineering out the wazoo for that purpose. But you cannot build a FFR to replicate an original, and that is not the purpose. If you want originality you have to look elsewhere, and at a much higher cost.

Different markets.

I'm one caught between the two markets: I LOVE the FFR engineering and build process, but I also want something close to the original. My internal struggle is how much and where am I willing to compromise: 15" pin-drives on a solid axel or IRS with faux knock-off bolt-ons. The other factor is whatever I do I have to pay an extra 35-56% import duty.

As far as the unstressed floating body (FFR) vs. the bonded body/tub: I doubt you can find a whole lot of difference in the Real World as far as body cracks, etc., go. I suspect FFR owners thrash their cars far more than ERA or SPF owners do.

For their markets, both FFR and ERA make an excellent product.

As an aside, the Hurricane roadster has a fiberglass interior tub with a separate body that can be easily removed. Interesting hybrid...

[Jeff Kleiner]

...ERA owners have deep pockets and strive for authenticity. They aren't necessarily builders. Like SPF owners, they want to drive as near an original as possible...

Sorry, you're not going to hold water with that one until you show me an original with a fiberglass body bonded to a ladder frame.

Jeff

[CobraboyDR]

Sorry, you're not going to hold water with that one until you show me an original with a fiberglass body bonded to a ladder frame.

Jeff

"Strive for authenticity"

Key word: Strive.

[j.miller]

I will say this.... ERA is an awesome car (over all). I have done all brands and my brand of choice is ....You guessed it , FFR. I charge 1k more to do an ERA because of the intense masking (several times through process ) because the body does not come off plus another 2k because the bodies need so much work to make them nice ( lots of ripples all over). ERA bodies are thicker and heavier and as mentioned a ***** if ya need to replace a half or a quarter. Of the 5-6 bigger boys in the game they all have their quirks +'s ,-'s Street Beast is a big freekin no no. On any given day at the track it's going to come to the driver. All the frames are more then enough to get the job done. Bonded body....potato, otptaoto bonded schmonded, no matter......who's better.....WHO GIVES A CRAP ! I will go with the biggest and bestest family every time...da Bat.........AND ANOTHER THING ! I'll tell what the other guys don't have.....YOU ! and 2, count them, TWO forums with an almost, incomparable, unbelievable, unexhaustable source of help and information.....Give yourselves a hand.....go ahead....GIVE YOUR SELVS A HAND ! DO YA FEEL ME....DO YA....CAN YA FEEL ME NOW! ok, ok, that's a little too close....you're kinda creepin me out now. BACK OFF! Don't make me come in there....da Bat

[Gumball]

But you cannot build a FFR to replicate an original, and that is not the purpose. If you want originality you have to look elsewhere, and at a much higher cost.

I gotta take issue with that statement.

I won't say that my Mk3.1 is an exact replica, but it's pretty dang close to the average eye and to my sub-average seat-of-the-pants. And, if I had started with a Mk4, it would have been even closer.

Certainly, a purist and Cobra-ista could pick it apart all day, but working with the blank canvas that FFR provided and using my knowledge of the original cars, including very hands-on experience with a few of them, I came pretty close at less than 10% of the cost of one of those cars. With an FFR, there really is a way for the "built, not bought" person who wants originality to reach a very reasonable compromise and achieve his/her dream.

But, to achieve this, I started with a base kit and chucked a bunch of what came with it in exchange for replacement parts that would be spot-on for a real-deal Cobra.





Look close and you'll even see rivets along the lower edge of the cockpit rolled lip.... just like how they held the aluminum body onto the original cars.

[edwardb]

...ERA claims that rubber mounted bodies get stress cracks over time and have cowl shake...

I'll play... For the record, since no one mentioned it, thousands of miles with three different FF Roadsters. I've never noticed a bit of cowl shake. None. Zero. And no stress cracks. Granted the body isn't technically rubber mounted as already noted. But just wanted to clear that up.

[BEAR-AvHistory]

ERA owners have deep pockets and strive for authenticity. They aren't necessarily builders. Like SPF owners, they want to drive as near an original as possible. Their motivation is not the building process, track days, restorods, etc.

Really don't want to debate the issue but when its comes to "authenticity" I have a very real problem getting past this.



The ERA might have nice cosmetics but trying to sell "authenticity" with that frame is a joke.

As for the "look", beauty is in the eye of the beholder but at the end of the day neither are Shelby's.

[rich grsc]

Sorry, you're not going to hold water with that one until you show me an original with a fiberglass body bonded to a ladder frame.

Jeff

What, don't you guy's know., authenticity is a square ladder frame and bonded fiberglass body.

[CobraboyDR]

I gotta take issue with that statement.

I won't say that my Mk3.1 is an exact replica, but it's pretty dang close to the average eye and to my sub-average seat-of-the-pants. And, if I had started with a Mk4, it would have been even closer.

Certainly, a purist and Cobra-ista could pick it apart all day, but working with the blank canvas that FFR provided and using my knowledge of the original cars, including very hands-on experience with a few of them, I came pretty close at less than 10% of the cost of one of those cars. With an FFR, there really is a way for the "built, not bought" person who wants originality to reach a very reasonable compromise and achieve his/her dream.

But, to achieve this, I started with a base kit and chucked a bunch of what came with it in exchange for replacement parts that would be spot-on for a real-deal Cobra.





Look close and you'll even see rivets along the lower edge of the cockpit rolled lip.... just like how they held the aluminum body onto the original cars.

Very, very nice. Well done.

But few have been finished like yours, and I suspect the vast number of potential buyers of any kit car have the skills to finish one like this. Aren't FE FFR's rather rare?

[Jeff Kleiner]

... Aren't FE FFR's rather rare?

I think ya' got him Chris!

Jeff

[CobraboyDR]

Really don't want to debate the issue but when its comes to "authenticity" I have a very real problem getting past this.



The ERA might have nice cosmetics but trying to sell "authenticity" with that frame is a joke.

As for the "look", beauty is in the eye of the beholder but at the end of the day neither are Shelby's.

The FFR is, indeed, one helluva frame. I don't think anyone is debating that. It may be the most advanced frame of it's kind out there (a frame from Australia may have it beaten, though, but enormously spendy.) It's one helluva well thought out product.

When folks think "authentic" they're thinking aesthetics and the basic guts of what made a 427 Cobra what it was: the exacting look, the big block FE, the IRS and pin drive wheels, etc. Almost every current Cobra kit car frame is superior to the original, even ERA. But not all have the potential to make a kit much like the original in those areas.

But like all matters of taste, opinions vary and all our blessings.

But FFR and ERA are in somewhat different markets. FFR is aimed at performance on a budget, ERA, Superformance & Hurricane at authentic looks but they will cost. All are excellent at where the end product is aimed.

I wouldn't take a ERA and thrash it on a track, but I doubt many of their market wants to. And unless I have mega-extreme skilz, I wouldn't try to make a FFR into a clone because putting pin-drive 15's on a FFR IRS would be a massive engineering feat, and if you wanted a street car, undercar exhaust is difficult without some serious bending...

I'm agnostic as to which is best. I've had a cheesy CMC with solid axle & 351w I bought on the cheap and drove the crap out of it back in the mid 90's. I had to drop the driver's floor to fit in the thing, and I'm only 6'2". I was a pre-lawsuit SPF dealer in FL and had a personal sled with a 427 side-oiler that I also drove the crap out of it in the late 90's/early 2000's. I'm in the market for another Cobra replica and both ERA and SPF aren't making the cut for the same reason: they are nice, but have gotten ridiculously expensive. I'm noodling around some options and FFR is definitely on the near radar, especially the 289 FIA.

If I'm going to spend $50k+ I want what I want with few, if any, compromises. And if FFR had a Mk4 or 289FIA/USRRC option for IRS with 15" pin-drive wheels and an easy undercar exhaust they'd already have my $$$ and I'd be posting a build thread. And keep in mind when I DO drop that $50+k on a build, I'm also going to have a $35-65% additional import duty tax on top of it. How many here would spend $78k on a FFR that cost them $50k to build?

I'm not calling anyone's baby ugly. I'm being an objective consumer who doesn't want to make a lot of compromises in areas that are important to me.

[CDXXVII]

Looks like this thread is being Trolled.

[CobraboyDR]

I think ya' got him Chris!

Jeff

I know they exist. But numerically they are rare.

[BEAR-AvHistory]

Looks like this thread is being Trolled.

I authentically agree with that.

[cv2065]

Thanks again for the explanations everyone. The bonded body always seemed odd to me when reading through the ERA kit and they charge a nice penny to do it for you out of the factory. Pulling the body also seems like a nightmare. I’m not hung up on authenticity and would rather customize a bit.

Whole thing reminds me of the Camaro vs. Corvette restorers. Classic Camaro enthusiasts, like myself, are more interested in customization with their cars. You’ll see everything under the sun for builds. However, Corvette enthusiasts focus on numbers matching everything. Deviating from the original GM recipe in any way is frowned upon. Not a perfect comparison for FFR to ERA, but puts it into perspective for me.

[edwardb]

Whole thing reminds me of the Camaro vs. Corvette restorers. Classic Camaro enthusiasts, like myself, are more interested in customization with their cars. You’ll see everything under the sun for builds. However, Corvette enthusiasts focus on numbers matching everything. Deviating from the original GM recipe in any way is frowned upon. Not a perfect comparison for FFR to ERA, but puts it into perspective for me.

So you're comparing FFR owners to the Camaro crowd and the ERA owners to the Corvette crowd where "deviating from the original is frowned upon?" I don't get that at all. As already shown, the ERA frame and body design is a huge departure from the originals. Much more than the FFR frame. The FFR Mk4 body is pretty authentic looking. Much more than before and better than many on the market. I'm not knocking ERA's. I've seen several and was impressed. Even priced one out one time but couldn't justify the significantly higher cost. I didn't find the difference in authenticity to be a big selling factor, whether real or perceived.

These kinds of threads always go off the rails pretty quickly IMO. This is a Factory Five forum. Most here have looked at what's available and made their choice. For lots of different reasons. Including me. Broad generalizations about who buys what brand are going to be wrong as much as they're right. It's just not going to be a very objective discussion, which shouldn't be surprising. Show up on a Mustang forum and start telling everyone a Camaro would have been a better choice, including citing GM advertising claims, and see how that goes.

[cv2065]

So you're comparing FFR owners to the Camaro crowd and the ERA owners to the Corvette crowd where "deviating from the original is frowned upon?" I don't get that at all. As already shown, the ERA frame and body design is a huge departure from the originals. Much more than the FFR frame. The FFR Mk4 body is pretty authentic looking. Much more than before and better than many on the market. I'm not knocking ERA's. I've seen several and was impressed. Even priced one out one time but couldn't justify the significantly higher cost. I didn't find the difference in authenticity to be a big selling factor, whether real or perceived.

These kinds of threads always go off the rails pretty quickly IMO. This is a Factory Five forum. Most here have looked at what's available and made their choice. For lots of different reasons. Including me. Broad generalizations about who buys what brand are going to be wrong as much as they're right. It's just not going to be a very objective discussion, which shouldn't be surprising. Show up on a Mustang forum and start telling everyone a Camaro would have been a better choice, including citing GM advertising claims, and see how that goes.

No, wasn't saying that at all. From some of the feedback in this thread, it seems that the 'perception' from ERA buyers is that they are getting as close as possible to the original design and are willing to pay more for it, which is why I referenced a Corvette enthusiast. Operative term being 'perception', so whether that's accurate or not is irrelevant. Some prefer modifications and that seems to be more of an FFR buyer desire, which is why I mentioned the Camaro enthusiast, which is the camp that I fall into as i can't justify the price for the ERA.

Getting ready to plop down quite a bit of money on this kit, and felt that a little due diligence was in order. Not looking for anything to "go off the rails" or a pissing contest between FFR and ERA. And never have I said that one is better than the other. I'm looking at a variety of manufacturer sites and simply asking questions for my own understanding. I've already decided on an FFR kit, but wanted to understand the differences a little better. Didn't realize this was such a sensitive topic...

[CDXXVII]

Here is the bottom line.

If you have some skills and are willing to do the work FFR is a great platform. IMHO the most rewarding.

If you just want to buy a nice already painted roller and insert the drive train then go Superformance.

If you do not care about a budget and want originality then go all out and buy a Kirkham with their all aluminum 427 big block. (WOW Factor All The Way)

[cv2065]

Here is the bottom line.

If you have some skills and are willing to do the work FFR is a great platform. IMHO the most rewarding.

And this is where I am. From what I'm seeing, I could save quite a bit of dough on a pre-built car, but that's only half of the journey...for me anyway.

[GoDadGo]

> I looked at ERA, Shell Valley & Went To Lone Star Classics, Unique and even a place that was selling Superformance Cobras.
> At the time, Factory Five was still using the MK-3 "Perky Backside Body" and then came the MK-4 and I was hooked.
> What sold me on Factory Five was the chassis & the fact that Racing is part of there DNA.
> What also sold me on Factory Five was the fact that You Build Your Car & It Is Truly A Reflection On You The Builder, though F/5 doesn't support doing a SBC set up.
> Make your decision based on what is important to you, but there is something different about the Factory Five Family That Is Unassailable & Cannot Be Measured!

Cool F/5 videos:
https://youtu.be/6ckgfkPU8Ss
https://youtu.be/wVT6QHyBxDA
https://youtu.be/V96-AQ1FghI
https://youtu.be/b88XnNX8rnc

My Project:
https://youtu.be/_wnHDNgnNqs
https://youtu.be/PCngiKoopkA
https://youtu.be/IGYtX-3p7xk
https://youtu.be/Vhbftk4AP4k

[Chris @ Forma]

It really comes down to what is most important to you. The destination or the journey.
Chris

[CobraboyDR]

No, wasn't saying that at all. From some of the feedback in this thread, it seems that the 'perception' from ERA buyers is that they are getting as close as possible to the original design and are willing to pay more for it, which is why I referenced a Corvette enthusiast. Operative term being 'perception', so whether that's accurate or not is irrelevant. Some prefer modifications and that seems to be more of an FFR buyer desire, which is why I mentioned the Camaro enthusiast, which is the camp that I fall into as i can't justify the price for the ERA.

Getting ready to plop down quite a bit of money on this kit, and felt that a little due diligence was in order. Not looking for anything to "go off the rails" or a pissing contest between FFR and ERA. And never have I said that one is better than the other. I'm looking at a variety of manufacturer sites and simply asking questions for my own understanding. I've already decided on an FFR kit, but wanted to understand the differences a little better. Didn't realize this was such a sensitive topic...

It's sensitive in that this IS a Factory Five forum and most posters are FFR loyaliats...as I hope they would be. From that perspective most posters are objective as far as they have chosen FFR as their manufacturer.

I would expect nothing but loyaly to the brand because FFR is an excellent brand.

Others, like myself, come here as part of the decision-making process. At this point we aren't loyalists but look to match what we want to what FFR can offer.

I did much of my grad studies on consumer behavior. And frankly if the folks here were NOT loyal to their brand that behavior would speak negatively about the brand. The fact so many are feircely loyal is a positive in my eyes, and is one more chit in the FFR jar of my buying choice.

And like motorcycles, ALL Cobra reproductions are a compromise from the original and one size does not fit all. So one must decide where that compromise fits the "wants" most. That's all.

How good is any kit? As usual, it's more the indian than the arrow. Those who have built cosmic, epic cars would have built a cosmic, epic sled regardless of the brand. Those who built hack jobs would have hacked any brand.

I have monster respect for FRR as a company and the FFR community. But as a consumer I need to feel comfortable with whatever compromise I choose. I don't know about y'all, but my money didn't come easy and I need to spend it wisely...

[cv2065]

I have monster respect for FRR as a company and the FFR community. But as a consumer I need to feel comfortable with whatever compromise I choose. I don't know about y'all, but my money didn't come easy and I need to spend it wisely...

Agreed. And that's the motive for any questions that I ask so everyone can put the troll label to rest. I respect those that have loyalty to the brand, and am glad to see such a strong FFR community that I can become a part of and contribute to, otherwise I wouldn't be spending money here. As you said, it would be concerning if there wasn't any loyalty, but at the same time, entertaining questions from new or prospective buyers to make them feel comfortable around their investment. At the end of the day, that in itself makes this community stronger through new FFR owners.

All that being said, let's all hug and go have a beer. By the way, can someone clarify that frame rubber isolation thing again? Just kidding.....

[BB767]

cv2065.
Welcome to the club! It looks to me you have been beaten up a little on this thread. I am glad you have not given up, given in, and went away. As you can understand, no one here is unbiased. But I see where you are coming from and imagine most of the posters here have good intentions. Maybe I should not admit it but I did no “shopping” for my car. I toured the factory, met Dave, talked to the employees, inspected the product, and was sold! There is nothing like the FF product and very few companies like FF, I think you will be satisfied with your choice. Although I started this project with “authenticity” in mind, I have morphed into being even more proud of having a Factory Five. When I get the inevitable question, “is it real”, I’ll answer “your damn right it’s a real Factory Five! This has been one of the most rewarding projects I have ever done. To add to Chirs’s answer, the most important thing to me is the destination AND the journey. So far I am very pleased with both! Again, welcome here and have a great build!
Brien

[Gumball]

I dunno, man..... since Mrs. Gumball has a '67 Camaro, can I still grow a mullet?

[BEAR-AvHistory]

He He, was smiling over the comment. Ran a '67 StingRay for close to 30 years. Outside & interior looked the same as when it was delivered. Underneath it was a continuously modified resto-mod well before the name was coined.



Multiple engines 427BB (original), 406SB, 350LT1SL, 454 & 460. Original 4MT rebuilt twice. Brakes, brake lines, wheels, springs (rear spring replaced with a composite) etc.

Interesting thing originally the car lost value but after a number of years resto-mod are bring in more then originals except for L-88's.

Guess its just me, but could never understand the big thing for originally in muscle cars etc. Most all that I owned & those of the people I knew were changed from day 1 & kept evoloving.

[cv2065]

He He, was smiling over the comment. Ran a '67 StingRay for close to 30 years. Outside & interior looked the same as when it was delivered. Underneath it was a continuously modified resto-mod well before the name was coined.



Multiple engines 427BB (original), 406SB, 350LT1, 454 & 460. Original 4MT rebuilt twice. Brakes, brake lines, wheels, springs (rear spring replaced with a composite) etc.

Interesting thing originally the car lost value but after a number of years resto-mod are bring in more then originals except for L-88's.

Guess its just me, but could never understand the big thing for originally in muscle cars etc. Most all that I owned & those of the people I knew were changed from day 1 & kept evoloving.

Great looking Stingray...You're right. Many of those restomods bring a pretty penny at Barrett Jackson these days.

[BEAR-AvHistory]

Great looking Stingray...You're right. Many of those restomods bring a pretty penny at Barrett Jackson these days.

Thanks, was my weekend warrior & daily commuter.



IIRC this was either the 1970 350LT1SL (my first crate engine) or the 406 Mighty Mouse, built from scratch.

The gray car just showing was a 1981 Datsun 280ZX T-Top that we converted into a convertible. Is nothing sacred?