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Thread: Engine/Transmission Selection

  1. #1
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    Engine/Transmission Selection

    Hi All,

    I have ordered my MK4 but now need to decide what engine to go with it and where to purchase it from. (first build for my son and I)
    I searched but could not find prior blogs for this. Has anyone put together a pros and cons of the choices. I see many threads on the Coyote but was leaning toward a 427.

    Looks like FF, Blueprint, and Mike are the options for vendors.

    Thanks

  2. #2
    Senior Member Jdav's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by miller7448 View Post
    Hi All,

    I have ordered my MK4 but now need to decide what engine to go with it and where to purchase it from. (first build for my son and I)
    I searched but could not find prior blogs for this. Has anyone put together a pros and cons of the choices. I see many threads on the Coyote but was leaning toward a 427.

    Looks like FF, Blueprint, and Mike are the options for vendors.

    Thanks
    Just a heads up that you should make that decision ASAP and update Factory Five as there are different mounts and driveshafts that are included in the kit based on your engine/trans selection.

    I went Coyote because I didnt want to deal with carbs. Following diagrams from other forum members (mainly EdwardB), the wiring was pretty easy (that is one area i have seen as a reason people shy away from the coyote).
    MK4 #9028 - Coyote - TKO600
    Delivery: 1/30/17 First Start: 7/23/17 Legal: 10/5/17
    Build thread: http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...8-Build-Thread

  3. #3
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    I think a SBC 383 would look great in that car and I bet at least one forum member here would agree, right Dad?

  4. #4

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    I need to make the same decision but have narrowed it down a bit. I am going for a "old school" look for a Type 65 but have not decided on 302 (306) or 347, how much HP etc. I will have EFI of some sort.

    I visited Mike Forte, very well received, and will most likely put in an order with him.

    Looking forward to comments.

    Sigurd

  5. #5
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    Was thinking 427 with EFI as sort of old school. Is the 427 too much engine for the MK4. Plan on a couple track days each year at Road America but no real racing. Son says go big or go home.

  6. #6
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    We are trying to make that same decision right now as well. We also want a 427 for the "old school" look, but want EFI so we don't have to worry about tuning carbs. I've been thinking about this for the past year and it seems like one could either go with a stroked 351 DART block or BOSS block (Ford Racing engine). I've searched the forums and so far can't find any good comparisons between the two.

    I've spoken with Blueprint who offers a DART block and they also seem to have the best warranty out there which appeals to me. I also spoke with Mike Forte (great guy) who could either make a DART block of his own, or he could sell me a Ford Racing engine with a BOSS block. Per Mike, there used to be two options for heads on this engine (X or Z heads). But they've recently discontinued those and now have "Z2" heads. I don't know exactly how these compare to the older ones and Mike Forte directed me to the Ford Racing guys to discuss further (need to do that). Roush also makes a DART 427 with EFI that is surprisingly not that much more expensive than the other vendors.

    I wish I could be more helpful, but look forward to what others think as well...

    David
    MK4 Roadster #9138
    427w, EFI, TKO600, IRS, complete kit, Wilwood brakes, power steering
    Delivered 8/9/17
    https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/show...8-Build-Thread

  7. #7
    Senior Member Fixit's Avatar
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    Engine choice is really up to the builder... "old school" w/ carb(s), new tech w/ EFI, or now "old school" w/ new tech EFI.
    My .02 (My other "toy" car is a '65 El Camino.)

    "Old school"
    As purchased it had the original 327, but with an early Edelbrock Performer and 650 vac Holley on it. After dozens of hours of tinkering & tuning I got it to run right, got the auto choke to work right, and on a good day I'd squeak 17 mpg out of it.
    Enter a 383 stroker I had laying around. Snotty cam, 10.5 comp, blah, blah, about 425hp at the crank, with a 750 vac Holley on it. Double the tinker hours, and MAYBE 11 mpg out of it.
    - Common thread with both... terrible "cold start" characteristics. Neither would run right until the temps were up. Almost as bad "hot start" conditions, coughing/sputtering until you "cleared it out" and then it'd idle down. Cruising and hammering on it was great, MPG sucked.

    "New School"
    Swapped in a '96 LT-1 w/ EFI. All the above problems are gone. Still 10.5:1, still in the 350+HP range, but it'll start at -10 or +110, and I get 26 (!) MPG on a cruise. And I can get parts for it at ANY parts store anywhere.

    "Old School w/ new Tech"
    A buddy of mine has a '72 Chevelle with a pretty snotty 454 in it. Last year he put a "FAST" EFI system on it. Still looks "old school", but he's LOVING it! All of the carburetor problems are gone, the system keeps "learning", and throttle response and driveability are off the charts compared to a carburetor. MPG has made a significant jump as well.

    I'm going Coyote with my pending build. The LT-1 swap convinced me to not even mess with "old school" or "old school w/ new". If I was building a "true replica" I'd probably do EFI on an "Old School" engine. I'm done with carburetors.
    John D. - Minneapolis 'Burbs

    1965 El Camino - LT-1, 4L60e, 4wh discs, SC&C susp.
    2013 F-150 Platinum - Twin Turbo 3.5
    2018 Mk4 Roadster - #9365 Build Thread

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by miller7448 View Post
    Hi All,

    I have ordered my MK4 but now need to decide what engine to go with it and where to purchase it from. (first build for my son and I)
    I searched but could not find prior blogs for this. Has anyone put together a pros and cons of the choices. I see many threads on the Coyote but was leaning toward a 427.

    Looks like FF, Blueprint, and Mike are the options for vendors.

    Thanks
    How much power do you feel is needed to make the car fun but not scary?

    Sigurd

  9. #9
    Steve >> aka: GoDadGo GoDadGo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NAZ View Post
    I think a SBC 383 would look great in that car and I bet at least one forum member here would agree, right Dad?
    Yes, I definitely like the SBC set up; however, we all know that fabrication will be required.
    I also like the LS platform since that motor can be adapted to the stock MK-4 mounts.

    If you wish to come to the Dark Side, like fabricating, and will be running the IRS, then an LS with a T-56 may be for you.
    If you want to run a 3 or 4 link solid axle set up, then the shorter TKO would be a better options because of drive shaft length.

    https://paceperformance.com/c-107475...3D501-550%20HP

    If you want to keep things simple, want the most under hood room possible without fabricating custom mounts, headers, driveshafts, etc, etc, etc, then a 347 or 363 SB Ford Set up with a TKO is probably the best option up because you don't need much to push these cars.
    Last edited by GoDadGo; 04-10-2018 at 04:50 AM.

  10. #10
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    Does anyone have any experience with The Engine Factory out of New Jersey?

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    I don't have a frame of reference for the Mk4 but I like my 2.3L in the Triumph Rocket3. Same basic power to weight I guess. Appreciate everyone's comments!

  12. #12
    Member rx7922's Avatar
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    i plan on going with the coyote motor with a vmp supercharger and a T56 tranny
    San Jose, CA
    Dreaming of the MK4
    Purchasing the kit within the next 4 years.

  13. #13

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    Our go to power plant is the Coyote, Ford MT-82 6 speed tranny and IRS. The MT-82 requires a couple of special items, FC shift mechanism and a FC drive shaft. This engine works great with Ford ECU though we take a different approach and use ECU Master. This offers features that are unavailable with the Ford controls.

    Chris
    Chris

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sigurd View Post
    How much power do you feel is needed to make the car fun but not scary?

    Sigurd
    I went to build school last July and started my build in August. I went to school thinking I would get the BluePrint 347 with EFI but had an open mind. There were guys that were planning on putting in these 500+ HP engines and I quickly decided that was a bad idea for a non-race trained driver. The Roush sales Rep gave a great presentation at the school and he said the same thing. I remember him saying "you will shift into third gear and be doing a buck forty and you're going to kill yourself". After his talk I was set on the Roush 331 SRXE, single disc clutch, TKO600, EFI. At 350HP I figured that was a good engine for me. Ultimately, I decided on a DART SHP 347 stroker, EFI, TKO 600 from Mike Forte and i'm really happy with my decision. It dyno tested at 377 HP @ 6200RPM and 389 ft/lb torque @ 4200 which is enough to make my sphincter pucker...

    Mark
    MK4 #9130 , complete kit, arrived 8/10/2017.
    DART SHP 347, EFI, TKO600, IRS
    http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...n-Build-Thread

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sigurd View Post

    How much power do you feel is needed to make the car fun but not scary?


    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Eaton View Post

    "you will shift into third gear and be doing a buck forty and you're going to kill yourself"

    It dyno tested at 377 HP @ 6200RPM and 389 ft/lb torque @ 4200 which is enough to make my sphincter pucker...

    400hp / 400ft lb will leave you mainly traction limited in 1st + 2nd + "better watch out" into 3rd on most any street tire.


    You probably want to gear it to be at rev limit in 3rd around 100mph (handy for 1/8th mile) - going into 3rd @ 140mph would be waaay too tall (maybe 140 was kph speak).

  16. #16
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    As others have chimed in, there are a number of options. The most important though is ask yourself what are your plans for your roadster? A garage/show queen? Then go with a 427 so that it has the look and you can proudly state, “why yes it does have a 427 (or 428). Weekend cruiser? 306, 347, 351 or Coyote will more than do you fine. Stomp on it in 3rd with one of these and you likely will scare yourself. Racer? Well then get on the phone with Gordon Levy or another experienced engine guy and they won’t steer you wrong. Likely they will suggest a stroked something or other. The consensus on “ideal” hp is anywhere from 350-400 give or take. Anything over 450 is likely overkill but hey if you want that, it is YOUR build so do what you want.
    Last edited by KDubU; 04-11-2018 at 08:23 AM.
    Kyle

    Complete Kit pickup 09/05/2015, 351w, QF680, 3.55, 3-Link, 15" Halibrands with MT's, Painted Viking blue with Wimbledon white stripes on 03/15/2017.

  17. #17
    Senior Member Duke's Avatar
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    Something to take a look at. 408 short block from Blueprint, head test.


  18. #18
    BluePrintEngines's Avatar
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    I better take this opportunity to Chime in! available any time to shoot the breeze or talk engines!!!
    I personally think you should have your cake and eat it too! Combine that Pushrod V8 snarl with modern self tuning EFI!!! can't beat it!


    Brand new EFI 427 offerings
    BluePrint-427-Ford.jpg
    http://factoryfiveengines.com/bluepr...l-injected-mk4

    and of course the 347 EFI
    BluePrint-347.jpg
    http://factoryfiveengines.com/bluepr...l-injected-mk4

    we even do a 306 EFI
    http://factoryfiveengines.com/bluepr...l-injected-mk4
    Last edited by BluePrintEngines; 04-11-2018 at 03:09 PM.
    Check out our crate engine offerings at www.factoryfiveengines.com
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  19. #19
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    Personally for a fun cruiser I would do the 427, but then I like torque. Blueprint has one with a trans ready to drop in no guess work required for a simple fast install. For a bit more money and work you could get a aluminum ford crate 427 that will save a good bit of weight, but will require a carb or efi set up and a tune. I like the 427 as you have the cubes to get more power with mods then some of the smaller displacement options.In the end what motor depends on your skill level as a driver and the intended use of the car. Big power in a no driver aid short wheel base car requires a well adjusted nut behind the wheel to prevent things from going wrong. But then again even the best mess up from time to time.
    Last edited by GFX2043mtu; 04-12-2018 at 04:04 PM.
    Mk4, Moser M88 rear end, Eaton truetrak, Craft Racing 461 Windsor, MMR pro trans, Glennís 1,000 hp cobra fuel system and lots of other parts.

  20. #20
    Steve >> aka: GoDadGo GoDadGo's Avatar
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    Should You Decide To Be One With The Dark Side, Then Here Is What Is Required:

    1. In order to install a SBC in a MK-4, you need to cut the motor mounts completely off and replace them with new mounts.

    2. The mounts that I used were from Speedway Motors and are shown in the link below:
    https://www.speedwaymotors.com/Speed...unts,1905.html
    https://www.speedwaymotors.com/Proth...unts,5527.html

    3. The basic location I got from Randy J. (Factory Five Forum Moderator) and is shown below:
    http://gpsconnection.com/interest.htm
    http://gpsconnection.com/brakes%20001.jpg
    http://gpsconnection.com/brakes%20002.jpg

    4. Headers are IMCA Shorty's from Schoenfield.

    Understand That Setting The Engine Takes Time & Gets You Into The World Of Being On Your Own So Tread Lightly If You Fab Skills Aren't Top Notch!

    https://youtu.be/_wnHDNgnNqs
    https://youtu.be/PCngiKoopkA
    https://youtu.be/IGYtX-3p7xk

    Good Luck & Have A Great Build!

  21. #21
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    It's a lot easier to have a big motor and not use everything it has. Modulation is the key, along with self-control and learning the only safety in the car is that thin line between your brain (an assumption) and your right foot.

    Than to want more and only have bought a little motor.

    Jim

  22. #22
    DavidW's Avatar
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    427 with FI, you'll love it.

  23. #23
    Member rx7922's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BluePrintEngines View Post
    I better take this opportunity to Chime in! available any time to shoot the breeze or talk engines!!!
    I personally think you should have your cake and eat it too! Combine that Pushrod V8 snarl with modern self tuning EFI!!! can't beat it!


    Brand new EFI 427 offerings
    BluePrint-427-Ford.jpg
    http://factoryfiveengines.com/bluepr...l-injected-mk4

    and of course the 347 EFI
    BluePrint-347.jpg
    http://factoryfiveengines.com/bluepr...l-injected-mk4

    we even do a 306 EFI
    http://factoryfiveengines.com/bluepr...l-injected-mk4
    would you be able to order a T-56 transmission instead of the TKO600?
    San Jose, CA
    Dreaming of the MK4
    Purchasing the kit within the next 4 years.

  24. #24
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    Got my 427w from engine factory. Everybody comments on its sound. Lots of power. Great looks too. I always thought I would build one with either a 289 or a 427. I know it’s not the same 427 but that doesn’t matter when you drive it or others see it. They just stare at it.
    JRL16
    Mk4 delivered 4/28/16. First start 10/15/16. First gocart 11/10/16. Engine Factory 427W. 750 carb. Tremec TKO600. 2015 IRS. Power steering. Whitby power brakes. Wilwood brakes. 18" wheels. Falken tires. Sway bars front and rear. Forte hydraulic clutch and mechanical throttle linkage. Scott's Hot Rods triple reservoir. Ceramic coated headers. Gasín sidepipes. Heated seats. Herb Fraser walnut door panels. Wipers. Console.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by DavidW View Post
    427 with FI, you'll love it.
    I want to thank everyone for providing feedback. After following all the suggested links, watching a few videos, we decided to follow the simplest advice which supported our first knee jerk leanings on a short block 427 with EFI. Now I need to talk to Blueprint, Mike, and the other vendors to determine best value. Primary concern is plug and play. Also need to double check a few of the options to make sure they line up.

  26. #26
    Member KenWilkinson's Avatar
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    Cry once. Good advice

  27. #27
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    call me
    Check out our crate engine offerings at www.factoryfiveengines.com
    Give us a call at 1.800.483.4263

  28. #28
    BluePrintEngines's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rx7922 View Post
    would you be able to order a T-56 transmission instead of the TKO600?
    I have never sold one with a t-56...pretty positive the driveshaft would be crazy short. I'm sure the community can jump in and help with this one!
    Last edited by BluePrintEngines; 04-16-2018 at 04:08 PM.
    Check out our crate engine offerings at www.factoryfiveengines.com
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  29. #29
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    I waffled around on this subject as well for quite a while. I attended build school last fall and have done a fair amount of reading across the forums on the subject (but that's not to say I'm an expert!!). For my build I will be mainly doing street driving with maybe an occasional track day a couple of times per year. A good point that I saw made a few times is that the engine choice changes the direction of your build pretty significantly. More horsepower tends to be less reliable than lower horsepower. More horsepower generally means you need more stopping power in terms of brakes and tires. You also have to cool a lot more engine and have to consider this in your build. Accessibility for maintenance is tougher on a larger motor. EFI vs. carbureted makes a big difference in driveability and tunability as others mentioned. All of these things can be mitigated through good design choices but you need to think about them as you plan your build.

    The consensus from the build school instructors was that the "sweet spot" for these cars is around 400 HP. Go up or down from their depending upon your comfort level with higher horsepower and driving skill. In a ~2000 lb car, you don't need a heck of a lot of power to have a lot of fun.

    I came to the conclusion that for my build a 347 should be about right for me. You've got some great resources right here to help you make a decision for your build. Good luck in your research and your build!

    Jake

  30. #30
    Member rx7922's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BluePrintEngines View Post
    I have never sold one with a t-56...pretty positive the driveshaft would be crazy short. I'm sure the community can jump in and help with this one!
    ill remember that, there is a first for everything lol.
    San Jose, CA
    Dreaming of the MK4
    Purchasing the kit within the next 4 years.

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by BluePrintEngines View Post
    I have never sold one with a t-56...pretty positive the driveshaft would be crazy short. I'm sure the community can jump in and help with this one!
    With the older T-bird IRS / 351w / T56 / Mk4, I moved the engine forward about 3/4" to give a little more room in the bellhousing area and ended up 10.5 inches u-joint to u-joint on the driveshaft.

    It was pretty widely accepted that the T56 was an IRS only option.


    I imagine it would come out about the same with the new IRS, but have no specific information on that.


    Also, I don't think there are any "new" T56s to be ordered, I think you'd be looking at the T56 Magnum - which might change things too.
    Last edited by mike223; 04-17-2018 at 01:42 PM.

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