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Thread: GTM Crate Engine

  1. #1
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    GTM Crate Engine

    So I suspect I might go with a Mendeola transaxle. I plan on driving this on the street, and maybe visit an autocross once or twice. Because of that, I'd like to save a buck and go with Mendeola rated at 500 hp (I'm pretty sure that's right?).

    So, any recommendations on crate engines that approach the 500 HP mark?
    I saw this LS3 525 HP recommendation on the forum here.
    The BluePrint Engine is a bit tooooo beefy (the "small" one is 585 HP, significantly beyond the 500 HP rating) and a bit pricey.

    Obviously I can just google "LS3 crate engine", but there might be experience here that I can't find with a forum search tool.

  2. #2

    Steve >> aka: GoDadGo
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    Here's a link that may be of use to you:

    https://paceperformance.com/c-107474...k-engines.html

    Just wish I had the skill sets and the wallet to build a GTM; however, I'm smart enough to know that I have neither.

    Good Luck With Your Quest!

  3. #3
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    I used the stock GMPP LS376/525 crate motor with matching stand-alone harness though mine is in a MKIV Roadster. I'm extremely happy with the product overall and although my installation is different, I wouldn't think that you would severely over-power your transmission choice. The 525hp is with decent but OEM exhaust manifolds in 100% optimal dyno conditions. You'll gain a little hp with good flowing headers but lose some based on real-world conditions using a stock tune.

    That sounds just about right for your application with good power but not risking your tranny.

    -TJ

  4. #4
    BluePrintEngines's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Perkster029 View Post
    So I suspect I might go with a Mendeola transaxle. I plan on driving this on the street, and maybe visit an autocross once or twice. Because of that, I'd like to save a buck and go with Mendeola rated at 500 hp (I'm pretty sure that's right?).

    So, any recommendations on crate engines that approach the 500 HP mark?
    I saw this LS3 525 HP recommendation on the forum here.
    The BluePrint Engine is a bit tooooo beefy (the "small" one is 585 HP, significantly beyond the 500 HP rating) and a bit pricey.

    Obviously I can just google "LS3 crate engine", but there might be experience here that I can't find with a forum search tool.
    Hey Perkster029, We sell a good amount of LS crate engines to GTM guys. I can pass on a reference if you'd like.
    On pricing, make sure you're looking at apples to apples. Ours comes with a controller kit, the GM does not.

    Our dressed/ ready to run 408 with 585 is $10,050 thats with controller kit.
    https://blueprintengines.com/collect...cts/gm-408-ls1


    A GM "525" with controller kit is $9900 by the time you add the controller.

    thats not too big of a difference...

    our 427 is $11585 little bit of a jump, but alot more hp (which i understand you may or may not want)

    ours also has a 30 month warranty, and is dyno tested. GM has never been ran, and has a 24 month warranty.

    hopefully this is helpful! just wanted to pass along the comparison!
    Check out our crate engine offerings at www.factoryfiveengines.com
    Give us a call at 1.800.483.4263

  5. #5
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    @godadgo I probably don't have all the skills either!! But, I've got patience and the willingness to learn, so that should suffice

    @TJ thanks for the anecdotal evidence, it's good to hear someone has had success with that engine

    @blueprint are we able to build a less powerful engine? I don't want a 585 hp on a 500 hp rated transaxle - if I get too enthusiastic bad things might happen...

  6. #6
    BluePrintEngines's Avatar
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    We do a long block that we don't dyno. It can make around 470 if setup with oem equipment.
    https://blueprintengines.com/collect...-crate-engines

    would be a good candidate for one of those LS self learning EFI systems.
    Check out our crate engine offerings at www.factoryfiveengines.com
    Give us a call at 1.800.483.4263

  7. #7
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    Let me just recommend that you start out with a standard 420 HP crate engine. The only difference between the 420 and the 525 is the cam and the tune. Both easy to change at a later date if you feel you need more power. The 420 is much easier to manage at low RPMs, cheaper, and should give you plenty of power, especially if you are going to run the 500 HP Mendeola. The GTM is relatively light and just doesn't need over 500 HP for the street.
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  8. #8
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    Here is my take on this. If you are going with the Mendeloa Transaxle, as I have, you need to order it now. I placed my order in June-July of last year BEFORE I ordered my kit, and am still waiting for delivery. Not that my build is on hold waiting for this, as I have plenty other things to do on the GTM, but it would be nice to get it in.

    I was originally looking at the LS376/525 as it looked like a stout manageable power plant that would allow me to upgrade later if I wanted to. Then I started to look at other options and questioned my logic. Do I really want to have to tear into this car after years of building it just to add some more power down the road? Could there be another motor option? Then I got in contact with Johnny at Blueprint. I'll start out by saying he is a hell of a guy, answered every single question I had (putting up with countless emails from me), and made a recommendation based on what I want from my GTM. I decided to go with their LS3 427 Stroker Motor. Johnny was even nice enough to answer questions about deleting their computer, harness, and pedal from my order so I could go with an AEM Infinity Engine Management System. I am sure I will be getting some professional help to get it running and a base line tune to start with, but I plan on going to their tuning class and have already read their 400+ page full manual. I want onboard tuning capability, likely through one of Tinos setups, which he has confirmed for me will work.

    Check out my post #51 for the dyno sheet:

    https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/show...we-go!!!/page2

    With this also came the decision to upgrade to the Stage 2 Mendy. Thinking back, I really don't think it was that much more, maybe around $1k, to up the power rating to 500-700 hp. Pairing these two together are going to make for one sporty GTM.

    The entire process from starting to talk with Johnny, confirming capability with AEM and Tino, and making sure all other systems will work happily together, probably took a hell of a lot longer than many of the other engines that Blueprint sells. The point here is that Johnny worked with me, step by step, and made sure I was happy before I place my order.

    If you are looking for an engine and are not set on anything at the moment, I recommend you at least give them a call and see what they can put together for you. I am a very happy customer and can't wait to fire this beast up!!!!!

  9. #9
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    I've really appreciated what everyone has laid out here. Quick update time

    In my searching, I've come across this guy: https://www.jegs.com/i/Chevrolet-Per...9333K/10002/-1. It's an LS376/480, claims 495 HP, and comes in at $8800 ready to drop in (controller included).

    I've yet to call up BluePrint and reeeaallly get into what they can do, and that's definitely on my to-do list.

  10. #10
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    @Shoeless

    I'm trying to get with Mendeola now. It's been a challenge to get a hold of them, but I finally did.

    I hear you on the engine, but I'm already over budget. If I don't rein myself in where I can, this car is going to cost wwaaayyy more than I planned. I figure I'll never even use all 500 horses, so why not save a few thousand and stop there?
    Last edited by Perkster029; 04-27-2018 at 10:27 PM.

  11. #11
    VRaptor SpeedWorks, LLC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Perkster029 View Post
    I've really appreciated what everyone has laid out here. Quick update time

    In my searching, I've come across this guy: https://www.jegs.com/i/Chevrolet-Per...9333K/10002/-1. It's an LS376/480, claims 495 HP, and comes in at $8800 ready to drop in (controller included).

    I've yet to call up BluePrint and reeeaallly get into what they can do, and that's definitely on my to-do list.
    Looks like you could save a couple hundred bucks on that package thru Pace Performance. I have no affiliation with them, btw.
    Shane Vacek
    VRaptor SpeedWorks, LLC
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Perkster029 View Post
    @Shoeless

    I'm trying to get with Mendeola now. It's been a challenge to get a hold of them, but I finally did.

    I hear you on the engine, but I'm already over budget. If I don't rein myself in where I can, this car is going to cost wwaaayyy more than I planned. I figure I'll never even use all 500 horses, so why not save a few thousand and stop there?
    Hey Perkster029,

    Glad to hear you finally got in contact with Mendeola.

    I can 100% understand the budget. I spent the better part of 6 months investigating, reading, and planning out my build. The BOM I put together had me at about $80K not including any body and paint. If I land on $100K than I will be happy. The more I think about it, I may actually go with a wrap instead of paint. I'm no body shop with fiberglass skill like some others I have seen on here, so its an option if I can get the body 80-90% there.

    Each of our builds are completely different and that's what makes this fun. You don't need to throw tons of money at this car to make it unique. I have actually picked up parts along the way, but have changed direction, so I no longer need them. One being the FFR Cold Air Intake which I have listed for sale, and then a set of bolts, nuts hardware to mount the AC bracket to the engine. I actually went out and bought them all new from GM ($100) and then stumbled across a set that came with another purchase of mine. I'd be glad to sell the used ones I came across for a reasonable price if you are interested.

  13. #13
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    Alright, anybody with a crate engine: what's the skinny on the computer? Should you buy a new, matching computer with the crate engine? Do you send it to FFR for reprogramming? I'm alllll questions and no answers.
    Ryan
    GTM #511
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  14. #14
    VRaptor SpeedWorks, LLC's Avatar
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    Yes, you will have to buy the mating harness and ECU with the crate engine. No need to send the ECU to FFR since the crate engine ECU's are already programmed to run right out of the box.
    Shane Vacek
    VRaptor SpeedWorks, LLC
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  15. #15
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    Alright so there are some decisions to be made. The crate ECU is easy to get the engine running properly and you NEVER have to deal with VATS. That's a big plus. On the down side is that if you have AC then the crate ECU will not control that. A junk yard ECU will, but you will need to also buy an HPtuner program to try and deal with the VATS and other settings. The manual says to send the ECU into FFR but the results of that have been reported here on the forums as spoty, at best. Some have sent their ECU to FFR multiple times and then had to eventually seek outside help to deal with VATS problems.

    The crate ECU is definitely the easy route to having the engine running right quickly, but if you have AC it may be worth it to you to work through the issues with a donor ECU. Or you can explore other ways to control the AC compressor. Really up to you.
    www.myraceshop.com

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    Hmmm. I like the idea of super simple and easy with the crate ECU, but A/C is going to be mandatory for me. I'm in Texas, and A/C is basically a requirement 6 months out of the year.

    I guess I need to find a used ECU. A quick ebay search returns some for $150, does that sound right?
    Ryan
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  17. #17
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    You aren't going to be able to use a donor/used ECU on a crate engine.....unless your crate engine is really, really old.....like from '04 or earlier. The C5 LS engines had a 24x reluctor wheel for the crank sensor. The new crate engines have a 58x reluctor wheel....so you can't use a C5 ECU to run a new crate engine that has the 58x reluctor wheel. I do not know of a single newer ECU that can be used to operate the AC. The C5 ECU was the last generation that you could wire up to run the AC. For all of the newer ECU's, GM used the BCM to control the AC, so none of the production car ECU's or crate ECU's have the capability to do AC control once you get past about 2005.
    Shane Vacek
    VRaptor SpeedWorks, LLC
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  18. #18
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    How about this conversion box as a solution? https://www.lingenfelter.com/PDFdown...L460065397.pdf

    That should allow the A/C to run off a donor ECU and convert the 58X reluctor signal to work with the old ECU expecting a 24X signal, right?

    I'll call FFR up tomorrow and ask if they know of other solutions to new crate engine + A/C kit.
    Ryan
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  19. #19
    VRaptor SpeedWorks, LLC's Avatar
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    That converter box looks like it might be worth looking into. One other thing to consider is that many of the connectors on....say an LS1 out of a C5 compared to a new crate LS3 are different. Seems like the throttle control connector is different as well as the MAF.....since the MAF sensors are completely different in construction. So if you go that route, you will have to find a C5 ECU and then get the VATS and steering column lock disabled. You'll also have to find a custom tune that you can program into the C5 ECU in order to operate the new engine. Might be quite a bit more complicated than you think...
    Shane Vacek
    VRaptor SpeedWorks, LLC
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  20. #20
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    Ryan,

    If you really want to talk to someone with Lingenfelter then you need to head down to Addison. 21st Century Muscle Cars is a Lingenfelter dealer. They are part of the Lingenfelter family as the owners wife is Lingenfelters daughter. That is the only reason they are considered a valid Lingenfelter shop. He probably knows more about Vettes and the drive train than anyone in the DFW area.


    Tim
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  21. #21
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    I gave FFR a call, and they mentioned there are two ways to hook up the A/C.. You can have the computer do the work, or choose to let the VA system take care of things.

    https://www.ffcars.com/forums/42-fac...m-hook-up.html and https://www.ffcars.com/forums/42-fac...ir-system.html seem to sum things up. It looks like we can get away with just a crate ECU that does not control the A/C in any way, and rely on the VA system to "do its thing" without additional input. I'm leaning that direction right now.
    Ryan
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  22. #22
    VRaptor SpeedWorks, LLC's Avatar
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    There are upsides and downsides to both ways. Having a C5 engine and C5 ECU is easiest since all that's needed is to wire up the VA AC output wire to the "ac request" pin of the ECU and wire in the 3 wires for the 'Vette AC pressure sensor and install the sensor. The ECU then controls the AC compressor, the cooling fans and controls the idle speed since it knows to compensate idle when the AC is on. Of course the downside is what we discussed above....the ONLY works if you're using an older LS1 or LS6 in your build.

    With a crate engine, yes...it's easy enough to wire up the AC compressor clutch as a "stand-alone" system that does not involve the engine ECU. The downside is that the engine has no idea when the AC is on, so it won't kick on the cooling fans or adjust the idle....and occasionally, you may find that when you come to a stop with the AC on, the engine will die. Also, you have to manually wire up some sort of over-ride for the cooling fans so that they come on with the AC.
    Shane Vacek
    VRaptor SpeedWorks, LLC
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    Offering a full line of GTM Upgrades and Custom Parts

  23. #23
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    I will offer up what I'm doing just as an FYI, so you know there is also another option, but it is pricy and you will have to learn how to tune your engine or have a tuner close by.

    I am going with an AEM Infinity Engine Management System instead of the stock ECU that was offered with my crate motor. There are some benefits and drawbacks to mention, but my back ground is Aerospace Engineering and love knowing every aspect of my build, including the computer controlling my engine.

    Benefits:
    - Adds availability of traction control, I don't believe Race Logic even offers their traction control system any more. With this, I can program it to do a number of things. Lets say if the rear wheels spin 10% more than the front, I can retard timing, or simply tell the DBW throttle body to back off the throttle, or a combination of both. I can also set it up to do different things at different percentage of spin.
    - I can tune my own engine on the fly if needed. My current plan is to make a carbon fiber top center console with a flip down tablet.
    - Can add several preprogramed safe modes for the engine (i.e. loss of oil pressure=engine rpm drop to save mode, loss of fuel pressure same thing, ... the list really goes on.
    - It will control the AC. I can also program it to turn the AC off at lets say 75% throttle, or over 5,000 RPM, so when I really get on it, the AC isn't starving me up full power
    - I'm seriously considering adding their Racing Dash which has all kinds off cool $hit that I want. Including vehicle dynamics module, GPS track lap timing, ... all the cool track stuff. Plus I can program and change the screens on the dash to do virtually anything I want.
    - I can monitor AFR on both banks of the engine.
    - The list really goes on, but you get the point.
    - So far, their Tech Support is AMAZING and I haven't even bought a system yet. This is KEY for me.

    Drawbacks:
    - Its pricy. I think all told the system I'm looking at is about $5,500. But that includes the ECU, Vehicle Dynamics Module, Race Dash, and all the sensors and wiring harness I need.
    - AEM doesn't make a plug and play 58x wiring harness, but they do make a 24X that you can convert to 58X by swapping a couple pins in the wiring harness.
    - I need to extend a couple sensor runs based on the above and the GTM layout.
    - You need to learn how to tune it, or have someone else do it. With that comes the need to get some special stuff like quality knock detection equipment, likely an oscilloscope (for any troubleshooting), possibly stand alone AFR equipment to validate what the ECU is seeing from the onboard wideband O2 sensors, and various wiring tools. I am doing some online classes right now to learn tuning, so I can get the car running and road tune it. Then if I take it to a tuner to really dial it in, I'll know EXACTLY what they are doing to my ECU and ultimately my engine.
    Last edited by Shoeless; 09-09-2018 at 10:21 AM.

  24. #24
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    Correction on my total system cost. I originally put $7,500, but it should have been $5,500.

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    Your plan sounds really neat! I'm not sure I have the desire to do the tuning, though. That price tag is also a bit heavy.

    I'll likely use the vintage air controls route, and do a clever system of simple switches/wirings to make sure things don't explode.
    Ryan
    GTM #511
    Build log: gtm.perkinsons.com

  26. #26
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    Ryan,

    FWIW, I used the VA control of A/C and forced fans on when the A/C was on. Ran my Pace Performance crate LS3 with GMPP crate ECU that way for 4 years and never had a problem stalling at a stoplight or anything else related to the A/C.

    -Michael
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    SOLD JUNE 2018 - GTM #327, LS3, G50/20, Kooks, AC, Ron's Tanks, Crash's 4-port HCV, Shane's Bolts & Plenum & etc., plus a lot of other stuff. Finished November 2013.

    Not-up-to-date Build Site: http://rumrunnergtm.weebly.com

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by RumRunner View Post
    Ryan,

    FWIW, I used the VA control of A/C and forced fans on when the A/C was on. Ran my Pace Performance crate LS3 with GMPP crate ECU that way for 4 years and never had a problem stalling at a stoplight or anything else related to the A/C.

    -Michael
    That's good to hear!
    Ryan
    GTM #511
    Build log: gtm.perkinsons.com

  28. #28
    Senior Member TDSapp's Avatar
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    Ryan,

    Before you order the Va system make sure you talk to the guys over at Classic Auto air. They have systems that will fit and an additional bonus of being located in Coppell. I went by and talked to them since I have their system for my Hot Rod. They were great to talk to and they offered to crimp all my fittings for me for free. :-)



    Tim
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  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by TDSapp View Post
    Ryan,

    Before you order the Va system make sure you talk to the guys over at Classic Auto air. They have systems that will fit and an additional bonus of being located in Coppell. I went by and talked to them since I have their system for my Hot Rod. They were great to talk to and they offered to crimp all my fittings for me for free. :-)



    Tim
    It's even easier than that! FFR sells a kit that comes with the GTM (if you order it). I'll probably still be talking with them, just so I know what's going on with everything, though.
    Ryan
    GTM #511
    Build log: gtm.perkinsons.com

  30. #30
    Senior Member jamesfr58's Avatar
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    I had an LS3 built with a ECM and stand alone harness for the engine then added a Dakota Digital Fan controller to control the high and low side of the fans as well as insuring the fans come on when the AC is turned on. The VA air unit that came from FFR will be controlled by the Infinity Box system this is the plan now but can be controlled by the controller sent with the VA unit but not both at the same time using the Dakota Digital fan controller. I have a 550 hp LS3 installed now, we have had it running prior to installing in the car, but was create LS3 with modification similar to the GMPP 525 hp package. Just another option when it comes to controlling the fans and AC unit.

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