no start condition on coyote

[Al_C]

OK, everything is connected, but... turn ignition switch and no fuel pump. turn ignition switch further, and no starter. I have Broku518 and Gumball here and they said "I bet somebody on the forum will know immediately..."

as far as I can tell, all of the coyote (C160a) wires are correct. power to gauges is good. no fuel pump, no crank.

thoughts?

[1932]

You need to look and see where 12v start, then chase it to switch and see if there is 12v going to start and run. On pump need to look at FFR to ford connection & fuse box. Good luck & start were it is good then chase down.
It has been some time from wireng.

[michael everson]

Did you run the large gauge wire from your battery to the terminal on the Coyote fuse box?
Mike

[Al_C]

Did you run the large gauge wire from your battery to the terminal on the Coyote fuse box?
Mike

yes. actually, the wire from the battery goes to the master cut off. the hot side of the master cut off is connected to the pcm (HAAT). the switched side of the battery cable goes to the 250A fuse, and then into the PDB.

[BEAR-AvHistory]

You have an internal or external fuel pump? External - Try running a ground wire directly to the chassis where the pump is mounted.

[Gumball]

Al,

Sorry we couldn't get it running today, but all of this computer mumbo-jumbo just goes way above my head..... my automotive expertise sorta stopped somewhere around 1965 (see below)



That said, here's some more info for everyone that may help one of you Coyote guys diagnose Al's situation.....

1) Engine block is not grounded.
2) All of the gauges cycle through - i.e., the needles move to both ends of the spectrum of their travel - when you turn on the master switch and turn the ignition to either ACC or RUN.
3) The gas gauge seems to show full, although Al only added 4 gals of fuel.
4) Al accidentally touched a wrench to the chassis when tightening the positive battery terminal, but the master switch was not turned on at that point.

I'm guessing that there may be some alternatives for him - such as using a code reader - to test his connections, but given that I'm an old-school guy, I'm outta my depth on this part of his build.

[wareaglescott]

Why is the engine block not grounded?
Gas gauge can be resolved and should have no effect on this.
Do you think you fried something when you touched the wrench to the chassis?

Is you mil light illuminated or do you have a code reader you can check for any faults from the pcm?

Paging EdwardB!! He will have some good questions I am sure to get you running.

[Al_C]

Although it was sunny when we started out, it appeared that the MIL was illuminated. I have a scanner, but the thought didn't occur to any of us to actually use it! That is the next step. Except not now - it's just too darn hot out there. It will be cooler early tomorrow morning.

Aside from other input, next steps are:
1. see if any codes
2. install ground strap on engine (although that wouldn't have an affect on the fuel pump)
3. check connections on coyote pigtail (c160a) wire-by-wire

I am not an electrical engineer, but I can't believe my (stupid, granted...) short circuit between the battery posts and the wrench had an affect on anything. The electrical path was through the wrench. Maybe someone who actually knows about this stuff will confirm or deny... thanks!

[Gumball]

I am not an electrical engineer, but I can't believe my (stupid, granted...) short circuit between the battery posts and the wrench had an affect on anything. The electrical path was through the wrench. Maybe someone who actually knows about this stuff will confirm or deny... thanks!

Gotta say, it sure was a good shower of sparks from where I was standing.

Not bringing it up to be a jerk - just thought that it may be important for someone who knows these computer controlled engines to know that it did do some serious sparking.

[2bking]

I assume this is a 2013 Coyote because you mentioned a PDB. If so, there are lights in the PDB that indicate when the circuit relays are energized, i.e., starter, fuel pump, and PCM. If the PCM light isn't on when the ignition switch is turned to run, you have a wiring error. In addition to the haat wire (Hot At All Time) to the PCM, there is a +12V wire from the ignition switch to the PCM to command it to switch the relay in the PDB. When this happens, the PDB LED on the PCM relay will turn on and +12V is sent to the PCM to power it.

The PCM is well protected from voltage transients so I don't think shorting the +12 BATT would harm it. It's also protected from hooking up jumper cables backwards. The PDB is basically a relay box with very few semiconductor components and mostly diodes, LEDs, and relays so nothing sensitive there either.

If the PCM isn't getting power, there will not be any MIL codes.

[edwardb]

yes. actually, the wire from the battery goes to the master cut off. the hot side of the master cut off is connected to the pcm (HAAT). the switched side of the battery cable goes to the 250A fuse, and then into the PDB.

Not understanding this. If using a master disconnect, the main Coyote PDB connection (the large lug on the front and the smaller power pigtail in the harness) should be on the hot side of the disconnect and in turn to battery power. Through the provided 250 amp fuse. That way, the Coyote harness is never powered off. The switched side of the master disconnect should go to the car’s chassis harness, which I’m assuming is a Ron Francis harness. What do you mean by “connected to the pcm (HAAT)?” There isn’t a separate power connection for the PCM.

Yes, you need to have a ground on the engine. As a minimum, you should have one end of a ground cable under one of the starter mounting bolts and the other to bare metal on the frame. I add a second from the block to the frame. But that’s a personal choice.

Speaking of grounds, I’m assuming you have the Coyote harness grounded. Ford says to home run the ground (and the +12V for that matter) directly to the battery. But for these cars, as long as the harness is grounded to bare metal on the frame, should be fine.

The fact that your gauges are working likely isn’t really related to the Coyote start or no-start.

The fact that fuel pump and starter both don’t run tells me maybe the Coyote system isn’t getting the ignition relay trigger (+12V) to the light green wire in the pigtail harness. The PCM won’t trigger the start sequence including the fuel pump without it. What wire from the RF harness do you have attached to that wire? Have you checked it with a voltmeter to see if there’s +12V when the key is on? That's the first thing I'd check.

The sparks when you shorted something is concerning. I’d check fuses, but other than that hopefully didn’t cause any harm.

[BEAR-AvHistory]

One extra thing, are you sure of the wiring to the ignition switch? One of two items I had to correct.

[Dave Howard]

I'm running a battery disconnect switch and it is the first device in the +ve lead from the battery. When the disconnect switch is off, there is NO power to the PDB and its been working fine this way since first start. The PDB is not on the hot side. That way the entire car including the Coyote harness is always powered off when the switch is off. The Coyote brains do not need constant power to remain smart and new code entered (tune) will not be lost when the power is cut. The only draw back with the disconnect switch is losing all the presets in the stereo system that I never use.

Agree with everyone else on the engine ground strap, but that shouldn't impact the fuel pump.

Back to basics....Did you reset the inertia switch?

[edwardb]

I assume this is a 2013 Coyote because you mentioned a PDB. If so, there are lights in the PDB that indicate when the circuit relays are energized, i.e., starter, fuel pump, and PCM. If the PCM light isn't on when the ignition switch is turned to run, you have a wiring error. In addition to the haat wire (Hot At All Time) to the PCM, there is a +12V wire from the ignition switch to the PCM to command it to switch the relay in the PDB. When this happens, the PDB LED on the PCM relay will turn on and +12V is sent to the PCM to power it.
The PCM is well protected from voltage transients so I don't think shorting the +12 BATT would harm it. It's also protected from hooking up jumper cables backwards. The PDB is basically a relay box with very few semiconductor components and mostly diodes, LEDs, and relays so nothing sensitive there either.
If the PCM isn't getting power, there will not be any MIL codes.

Sig line says 2015 Coyote. It has a PDB too. Just different from the previous version. Along with harness differences.

One extra thing, are you sure of the wiring to the ignition switch? One of two items I had to correct.

Don’t think the gauges and related would be working if it were wired wrong. But agree it’s one of the first things to check when troubleshooting.

I'm running a battery disconnect switch and it is the first device in the +ve lead from the battery. When the disconnect switch is off, there is NO power to the PDB and its been working fine this way since first start. The PDB is not on the hot side. That way the entire car including the Coyote harness is always powered off when the switch is off. The Coyote brains do not need constant power to remain smart and new code entered (tune) will not be lost when the power is cut. The only draw back with the disconnect switch is losing all the presets in the stereo system that I never use.
Agree with everyone else on the engine ground strap, but that shouldn't impact the fuel pump.
Back to basics....Did you reset the inertia switch?

Switching the PDB off with the master disconnect, and in turn the PCM, isn’t a good idea. The tune (Ford standard, custom, whatever) is in non-volatile memory and isn’t going anywhere. But without power you will lose learned settings, e.g. fuel trims, idle settings, etc. It will take several drive cycles to rebuild them. You can also lose stored DTC’s. May not be an issue if you don’t turn the master disconnect off very often. But in general not how it should be wired. Ford control pack instructions: "Note: This lead MUST be hot at all times (HAAT)..." and explains the reasons listed. The car won't start or run if only the Ron Francis harness is switched through the master disconnect, so it serves its purpose when wired that way.

Agreed the inertia switch should be checked. But even if it’s tripped, the engine should still crank.

[Dave Howard]

Switching the PDB off with the master disconnect, and in turn the PCM, isn’t a good idea. The tune (Ford standard, custom, whatever) is in non-volatile memory and isn’t going anywhere. But without power you will lose learned settings, e.g. fuel trims, idle settings, etc. It will take several drive cycles to rebuild them. You can also lose stored DTC’s. May not be an issue if you don’t turn the master disconnect off very often. But in general not how it should be wired. Ford control pack instructions: "Note: This lead MUST be hot at all times (HAAT)..." and explains the reasons listed. The car won't start or run if only the Ron Francis harness is switched through the master disconnect, so it serves its purpose when wired that way.

Agreed the inertia switch should be checked. But even if it’s tripped, the engine should still crank.

I agree the FORD installation instruction refer to the PDB being HAAT. In 2012 when I built my MkIV/Coyote I considered this and felt it was more important to me to have NO power going to any part of the electrical system when the cutoff switch is in the open position. So I lose the diagnostic codes and the adaptive fuel parameters each time I cut off the electrical power. Not a big deal. 38,000 remarkable kilometers later and no worse for wear. Oh yeah, and on the dyno at 488 HP running 87 octane. OMG the FORD instructions say "Premium Fuel Only (91 Octane or higher).

To the original post, wiring the PDB and cutoff switch in this manner will not result in the issues you are experiencing

[Al_C]

Lots of things to address and clarify, but we're definitely not done yet.

1. Master Disconnect: the hot side is the positive lead from the battery. An additional cable is routed FROM THIS SIDE (forget what I said above) to the 250A fuse. The switched side of the disconnect goes to a) the starter and b) a junction box which is the RF main connection.
2. The output of the 250A fuse goes to a)the connection on the front of the PDB and b) the C500 coyote cable.
3. This is a 2015 coyote.

C160A (coyote pigtail) connections are as follows:
yellow key on: backup light
fuel pump green: tan RF fuel wire
ground: ground
blue starter request: blue EFI crank wire on RF harness
orange AUX2: red MIL wire
green ignition relay: orange EFI crank wire on RF harness
blue malfunction: black MIL wire
HAAAT B: clock

I'll connect the OBD II reader after I get back from church and report back.

[edwardb]

Lots of things to address and clarify, but we're definitely not done yet.

1. Master Disconnect: the hot side is the positive lead from the battery. An additional cable is routed FROM THIS SIDE (forget what I said above) to the 250A fuse. The switched side of the disconnect goes to a) the starter and b) a junction box which is the RF main connection.
2. The output of the 250A fuse goes to a)the connection on the front of the PDB and b) the C500 coyote cable.
3. This is a 2015 coyote.

C160A (coyote pigtail) connections are as follows:
yellow key on: backup light
fuel pump green: tan RF fuel wire
ground: ground
blue starter request: blue EFI crank wire on RF harness
orange AUX2: red MIL wire
green ignition relay: orange EFI crank wire on RF harness
blue malfunction: black MIL wire
HAAAT B: clock

I'll connect the OBD II reader after I get back from church and report back.

Everything looks exactly right. Main power is fine. Your pigtail connections all appear to be correct. Doesn't hurt to read codes through the ODB port. But I'm guessing it's not going to tell you anything. Seems now you may be chasing two different issues. But just a guess. My recommendation is to:

- Probe the fuel pump green: tan RF fuel wire with a voltmeter. It should show +12V when the key is turned on. For 1-2 seconds. It shuts off after that, which is normal until the engine starts.
- Probe the green ignition relay: orange EFI crank wire on RF harness: It should show +12V at all times when the key is turned on.
- Probe the blue starter request: blue EFI crank wire on RF harness: It should show +12V when the key is moved to the start position.

If these all read +12V at the times indicated, then your Coyote pigtail -> RF harness interface is correct and that's not the problem. Any one of them not reading +12V would prevent it from starting. Other suggestions:
- Add the engine ground as already discussed.
- Check the inertia switch as already discussed.
- What about the bottom clutch switch? Do you have it installed and is it working? That would prevent the starter from running. But the fuel pump should still work.
- You do have the starter lead from the Coyote harness to the small terminal on the starter, right? The RF harness isn't used for the starter.
- Another thing to check would be +12V directly at the fuel pump connector. That would confirm the inertia switch isn't tripped and your wiring between the Coyote harness and the RF harness is correct. Same as at the pigtail connection, at the pump it should show +12V when the key is turned on. For 1-2 seconds. It shuts off after that, which is normal until the engine starts.

[Al_C]

A few updates:
1. Engine ground is done. Lesson learned - should not have put this off. But... even with it connected, the darn thing still doesn't work.
2. All three controls pack grounds are solidly connected to bare metal.
3. The OBD II reader can't link to the PCM. As I understand it, this occurs when there isn't enough voltage to the PCM. Of course! We already know there is no power to the PCM!
4. Working through the relays and fuses in the PDB. So far, so good. More to come.
5. This is a bit disconcerting: it became apparent this evening when I had a lower level of lighting - when I turn the master disconnect on, the gauges light up. That shouldn't happen unless the ignition switch is "on".
6. controls pack starter lead "N" is indeed connected properly to the starter.

I was thinking this is a ground-related issue. Maybe it isn't. I can look at this again tomorrow in the absence of mosquitos. I probably need to pull the dash out a bit so I can review all of the hidden connections in detail. Film at eleven...

[edwardb]

Four comments/observations:

1. Your gauge lighting is on the battery circuit. They should come on when the headlight switch is pulled to the first position. Whether the ignition is on or not. If they're going on and off with the ignition switch, something isn't wired right.

2. The fact that your code reader can't connect is obviously concerning. If the PCM has power, it should connect when plugged in. Whether the key is on or not. It may prompt you to turn the key on so it can read codes. But it still should connect immediately when plugged in. There is power in the socket at all times.

3. Didn't you mention before that the MIL flashed when you turned the ignition key on? The instructions says it stays on until the engine starts. But that's not correct. It just flashes. But if it's doing that, then seems the PCM is powered. Confusing.

4. You didn't mention reading the voltage on the three pigtail wires (fuel pump, ignition, start) I mentioned. Those are literally the only wires between the RF harness and the Coyote needed to make it run. Maybe a moot point if the PCM isn't powering on.

[Al_C]

We're almost there. So, some answers to previous questions, and a new question.

First, the gauge lights are connected to the headlight switch. Of course! In my infinite wisdom, I didn't have the plunger in place on the headlight switch. Sure enough, it was not all the way off. Answers that question.

There was no power to the PCM. What I thought was the MIL light going on was sunlight glare. In the garage, you couldn't see the MIL light.

Next, tested all the pigtails. All good. Keep reading.

We tested the relays and all the pigtail connections, as well as the connections between the RF harness and the coyote harness. Here's what we have:

1. the orange efi crank wire is connected to the green ignition relay lead on the coyote pigtail. There is continuity from the orange efi/crank wire to the orange wire on the ignition switch.
2. the blue starter request wire on the pigtail is connected to the blue RF wire.

3. we put 12 volts to position 5 in the pdb and got crank and fuel pump. with power to position 5, the MIL light flashed as it should, and the fuel pump started. Of course, we found a couple of leaks, but that's another story.

It seems as though we are missing a wire someplace. We don't have power on. We need to determine what wire turns on ignition A and B circuits (i.e. turns the PCM on. with power to position 5, you can turn the key and everything works as it should. except for the leaks.

Your thoughts???

Once I get the "missing wire" problem solved - and the leaks tightened up - I can get Chris and Martin over here again for "take 2".

connection recap:
coyote fuel pump green goes to tan RF fuel pump
blue starter request goes to blue efi crank
orange aux 2 goes to red MIL wire
green ign relay goes to orange efi crank
blue malfunction goes to black mil wire
HAAT B goes to clock
yellow key on goes to backup light
black ground goes to frame.

[edwardb]

3. we put 12 volts to position 5 in the pdb and got crank and fuel pump. with power to position 5, the MIL light flashed as it should, and the fuel pump started. Of course, we found a couple of leaks, but that's another story.

It seems as though we are missing a wire someplace. We don't have power on. We need to determine what wire turns on ignition A and B circuits (i.e. turns the PCM on. with power to position 5, you can turn the key and everything works as it should.

Following everything you're describing except this.

What do you mean by "position 5?" That's nowhere in the instructions and I can't figure out what you're referring to. Maybe related to this, your answer to Mike's question in post #4 didn't make sense to me either. I asked about it in post #11, but haven't seen an answer. At least don't think so.

Maybe to approach it another way, power gets to the PDB in two ways: (1) The large tab on the front of the PDB. That should have a #4 cable from your 250 amp fuse, the other side of which is attached to the hot side of your disconnect switch. Result: Full battery power at all times to the PDB front power connection, (2) There's a second power and ground connector. Item B Connector # C500 in the main harness. The hot side of this connection also needs to go to your battery power. The ground side should go to chassis ground. That's the main ground connection for the entire system. Ford provides a cable between these connections and the battery. 3.5 B + to FPPDB Cable Assembly. But I didn't use it and sounds like you didn't either. But you still have duplicate the connections.

With these two connections (points #1 and #2 in the previous paragraph) the PDB will be hot and everything else (e.g. PCM, etc.) will be alive. Please confirm you have these connections wired as described. With this plus the other connections you've confirmed (pigtail, etc.) it should start.

[michael everson]

You need to determine if you have power at the orange EFI wire with the key on. Do you have a test light to confirm this? It wouldn't be unheard of to have a wiring error in the RF harness.
Do your directional work? If not you probably don't have power going to the ignition side of the fuse box.
Mike

[Al_C]

Following everything you're describing except this.

What do you mean by "position 5?" That's nowhere in the instructions and I can't figure out what you're referring to. Maybe related to this, your answer to Mike's question in post #4 didn't make sense to me either. I asked about it in post #11, but haven't seen an answer. At least don't think so.

Maybe to approach it another way, power gets to the PDB in two ways: (1) The large tab on the front of the PDB. That should have a #4 cable from your 250 amp fuse, the other side of which is attached to the hot side of your disconnect switch. Result: Full battery power at all times to the PDB front power connection, (2) There's a second power and ground connector. Item B Connector # C500 in the main harness. The hot side of this connection also needs to go to your battery power. The ground side should go to chassis ground. That's the main ground connection for the entire system. Ford provides a cable between these connections and the battery. 3.5 B + to FPPDB Cable Assembly. But I didn't use it and sounds like you didn't either. But you still have duplicate the connections.

Yes - the large cable is connected to the port on the front of the PDB. It comes out of the 250A fuse and goes there. The c500 connection is also there. I agree that those provide power and all should be good. Nevertheless, I'll check those again. We have power in to the pdb, just not the circuits mentioned.

Position 5 refers to this photo. Not the greatest, and it's even in the wrong orientation, but hopefully this picture clarifies that (a little).



To Mike's point - I will check the orange efi crank wire next. don't know about the directionals, but the high beam indicator lit up when I hit the momentary switch and the gauges all light up.

[edwardb]

OK, now I know what you mean by position 5. Personally, I'd be a little careful about applying voltage directly inside the PDB. Measuring OK. But not actively applying voltage. Fortunately I haven't had to go that level.

I mentioned measuring voltage at the three pigtail wires (fuel pump, ignition, start) before. To confirm that the RF harness is doing its part. To Mike's point, the orange EFI wire +12V from the RF harness with the key on "wakes up" the PCM and must be present at all times to keep the engine running. Those three wires, also as I mentioned before, are literally the only wires between the RF harness and the Coyote needed to make it run.

With battery power into the PCM, which it sounds like you have, and the RF harness putting +12V on the ignition and start wires in the pigtail, it should work. If it still doesn't, I'm running out of ideas. I'm assuming you've checked all the fuses in the PDB? The relays not so easy to check. But there are several that are the same, so it would easy to swap positions on them and see if anything changes. Maybe even the PCM is dead or there's a Coyote wiring harness issue. Like I said, running out of ideas. The current version of the Ford Performance instructions has a troubleshooting guide that doesn't look like is showing on your picture of the PDB in the manual. Something you might take a look at. Starting on page 20: https://performanceparts.ford.com/do..._504V_REV3.PDF.

Just to confirm, I'm assuming you have everything else wired up: MAF sensor, top and bottom clutch switches, DBW module (accelerator), all harness plugs including the PCM in the proper locations and fully seated. Also assume you're pushing the clutch down when trying to start. You still should be getting fuel pump running when you turn on the ignition though.

If everything checks OK and the PCM still doesn't seem to be alive, the next call is to Ford Performance IMO. One of their guys (either Ray or Steve, don't remember) is really good with electrical troubleshooting.

[2bking]

Check both sides of the connectors that position 5 runs through. You might find a pin/socket either bent or not seated.

[Al_C]

Fixed. It was the orange efi crank wire. Previously, I took the wires apart to see if there was power to those connection points (green pigtail and orange RF wire).
This time I was lazy and just stuck the test probe into the connection itself. As soon as I did that, the fuel pump engaged. The connection between it and the pigtail lead was no good. Put a new connector on the orange wire and everything works. Now I just have to fix the leak on the fuel pressure regulator before I start it. I learned a lot about how the coyote PDB works in this process. Thanks for all your input!

(On another note, the leak is around the return fitting on the bottom of the Aeromotive regulator. The fitting is seated completely, but clearly it is not tight enough. I probably have the wrong fitting there. I'll take the whole thing out tomorrow and take a closer look at it. Just one more challenge!)

[edwardb]

Good news! Not always, but often the answer is pretty simple. The Ford instructions make a big point about that connection being absolutely solid +12V or the engine won't start or stop expectantly. You proved it!

My Aeromotive regulator required special fittings. Inlet Size: -6 AN O-ring. Regular -AN fittings won't seal properly. Suspect that might be your problem. These are probably what you need: https://www.summitracing.com/parts/aei-15606/overview/

[Al_C]

Good news! Not always, but often the answer is pretty simple. The Ford instructions make a big point about that connection being absolutely solid +12V or the engine won't start or stop expectantly. You proved it!

My Aeromotive regulator required special fittings. Inlet Size: -6 AN O-ring. Regular -AN fittings won't seal properly. Suspect that might be your problem? These are probably what you need: https://www.summitracing.com/parts/aei-15606/overview/

Thanks, Paul, I think you are probably correct. Thanks for the parts referral!

[Dave Howard]

First start video on the way????

[Al_C]

First start video on the way????

Here's the plan: the fitting should arrive Thursday-ish. Hopefully. Depends on USPS. But Ohio to Illinois shouldn't take too long. Get the part and put the regulator back together Thursday. Check for leaks. If none, crank it over and do video. If leaks, all bets are off.