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Thread: Roll Bar Height?

  1. #1
    Senior Member cv2065's Avatar
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    Roll Bar Height?

    I don't my kit yet to measure, but the FFR roll bars in some pictures look proportional and in others they look kind of tall? Has anyone done any 'self adjustment' to these? I've read that some 3rd party roll bars may be a little shorter, but wanted to get some opinions. Thanks!
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  2. #2

    Steve >> aka: GoDadGo
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    I've shortened the stock bars by about 1.5".
    All I did was grind off the spot welds that Factory-5 placed to limit how far the bars would drop.
    It does create a slight off beat angle of the support, but it isn't that noticeably, but you can judge for yourself in the attached video:

    https://youtu.be/IGYtX-3p7xk

    I also shorted the wheelbase .75" to .80" to better center the rear wheels, but I have fully embraced The Dark Side.
    Last edited by GoDadGo; 07-04-2018 at 08:28 AM.

  3. #3
    mburger's Avatar
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    Well, there are looks and there is protection.
    God forbid you roll over, you want the tallest roll bar.
    Just looks, well whatever.
    Remember, they are called roll bars for a reason.
    Mark
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    Senior Member edwardb's Avatar
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    You're probably seeing lots of variations. Stock Mk4 roll bars (which you have obviously), stock Mk3 and earlier roll bars, Breeze roll bars, and then modded ones like GoDadGo mentioned. Mk4 bars are 1-1/2 inch diameter and agree they look a little tall. Mk3 and earlier are 2-inch diameter, so while maybe not any taller, look a little more proportional. Breeze bars are 1-3/4 inch diameter and slightly shorter, plus tipped back. So are probably the best looking. But they take some work fitting, welding, and finishing. But in the end, agree it's about safety. The infamous "broom stick rule" applies. Your head (with helmet if tracking) should be below a line (or broom stick) drawn between the top of the roll bar and the nose of the car. The windshield doesn't count. It will fold like origami. Depending on your height, your seats, etc. the actual roll bar height required varies a little. But the stock Mk4 roll bars offer the best protection for most.
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  5. #5

    Steve >> aka: GoDadGo
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    Quote Originally Posted by mburger View Post
    Well, there are looks and there is protection.
    God forbid you roll over, you want the tallest roll bar.
    Just looks, well whatever.
    Remember, they are called roll bars for a reason.
    Excellent Point:
    We aren't the tallest folks and have the lower "Big & Tall Seats -with- Breeze Brackets" so our heads are a good bit lower than the lowered bars, even with helmets on our beloved noggins!
    Last edited by GoDadGo; 07-04-2018 at 07:18 AM.

  6. #6
    Senior Member cv2065's Avatar
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    As always, thanks for the detailed feedback guys. As Paul suggests, I'll do some 'broomstick rule' measurements once I get everything in place. Safety is priority of course, but if I can get form WITH function, I'm all for it!!

    Thanks for the suggestion GoDadGo! And the waterlines you show in your video are amazing...and I've seen some flooding in South Florida!
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  7. #7
    Senior Member BEAR-AvHistory's Avatar
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    Not happy with the "look" of the stock bars. That said most of us spend more time in the car without our helmets on. My bald head likes the extra clearance to the ground the stock bars provide.
    Kevin
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  8. #8
    Senior Member Avalanche325's Avatar
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    FFR made their roll bars taller than the originals to meet requirements for racing. I believe it was NASA specs.

    With the height of the originals, if you ever go over, the top of your head is gong to be shaped just like Herman Munster's.

  9. #9
    Senior Member cv2065's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Avalanche325 View Post
    With the height of the originals, if you ever go over, the top of your head is gong to be shaped just like Herman Munster's.
    LOL...Let's hope I never have to test it.....
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  10. #10
    Junior Member SLOKarl's Avatar
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    In addition to adequate roll bar height, I like the safety of high back seats - which serve as head restraints. I can't imagine driving without high back seats.
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  11. #11
    Not a waxer Jeff Kleiner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Avalanche325 View Post
    FFR made their roll bars taller than the originals to meet requirements for racing. I believe it was NASA specs.
    Actually, while offering some degree of protection the roadster bars do not meet the requirements for ANY organization; not SCCA, not NASA, not NHRA. Challenge car cage meets NASA and SCCA.

    Jeff

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Kleiner View Post
    Actually, while offering some degree of protection the roadster bars do not meet the requirements for ANY organization; not SCCA, not NASA, not NHRA. Challenge car cage meets NASA and SCCA.

    Jeff
    I question how much these roll bars will actually protect. Does anyone have a photo of a roadster that has been rolled?

  13. #13
    Papa's Avatar
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    Not a roll over crash, but definitely shows roll bar failure. I still can't figure out what could cause that much damage???

    Last edited by Papa; 07-06-2018 at 10:42 AM.
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  14. #14
    Senior Member edwardb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davekp View Post
    I question how much these roll bars will actually protect. Does anyone have a photo of a roadster that has been rolled?
    Option 1: Go upside down with nothing but my head (and my passengers) to hold things up.

    Option 2: Go upside down with the existing roll bar (or roll bars) in place.

    I choose option 2 without thinking about it. Even if not approved by sanctioning bodies for competition use. They are frame mounted, and if you've ever tried to bend or adjust them, you know they're pretty stout. Actually though, I choose option 3. Keeping it upright.

    Quote Originally Posted by Papa View Post
    Not a roll over crash, but definitely shows roll bar failure from a rear-end collision.

    Ouch. That's a really hard hit and pretty extreme. Couldn't have been good for whoever was in the car. I'd question whether the roll bars failed though. At least not the primary failure. The frame was folded moving the mounts. Caused them to angle over.
    Last edited by edwardb; 07-06-2018 at 10:51 AM.
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  15. #15

    Steve >> aka: GoDadGo
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    From The Dad Side Once More:

    1. For the record, I love the way these cars look with no scoops, no hoops and no side pipes, but I feel these cars need at least some roll over protection.

    2. My roll bars bottom out on frame instead of the tack welds placed on the frame by the crew at Factory-5 Racing.

    3. I then replaced the the stock bolts with two larger Grade-8 bolts on each of the main two hoops.

    4. Those bolts are 90 degrees apart and about 1.5" above each other.

    4. The support bolts were also replaced with Grade-8 bolts as well, though only one for each connection.

    "The Dad-Theory" is to reduce the the chance of any bolt getting sheared off in the event of a roll over since the tubes are now sitting on the frame. While this did lower the bars, something I like, our noggins are still well below the bars and pass the broom stick test thanks to Breeze Seat Brackets and the lower Big & Tall F-5 seats being used.

    Safety First When Dealing With A Very Deadly Serpent That We All Feel Is The Coolest Car On The Planet!
    Last edited by GoDadGo; 07-06-2018 at 11:13 AM.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by davekp View Post
    I question how much these roll bars will actually protect. Does anyone have a photo of a roadster that has been rolled?

    Video showing Roll Bar helping Dave Smith. It's more robust than the roll bar that we have, but I'm glad it was there for him.

    https://youtu.be/_gBLUD-XoLQ?t=1m36sroll bar.JPG
    Last edited by DadofThree; 07-06-2018 at 11:15 AM.
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  17. #17
    Papa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoDadGo View Post
    From The Dad Side Once More:

    1. For the record, I love the way these cars look with no scoops, no hoops and no side pipes, but I feel these cars need at least some roll over protection.
    2. My roll bars bottom out on frame instead of the tack welds placed on the frame by the crew at Factory-5 Racing.
    3. I then replaced the the stock bolts with two larger Grade-8 bolts on each of the main two hoops.
    4. The support bolt was also replaced with Grade-8 bolts as well.

    "The Dad-Theory" is to reduce the the chance of any bolt getting sheared off in the event of a roll over since the tubes are now sitting on the frame.
    Steve,

    My chassis doesn't have any of the welds you are describing. My bars go all the way to the frame as delivered from FFR.

    Dave
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  18. #18

    Steve >> aka: GoDadGo
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    Quote Originally Posted by Papa View Post
    Steve,

    My chassis doesn't have any of the welds you are describing. My bars go all the way to the frame as delivered from FFR.

    Dave
    Glad They Made This Change!

  19. #19
    Not a waxer Jeff Kleiner's Avatar
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    Yeah, here's that well known "test" that Dave performed at RunN'Gun.



    That video of the one getting loaded on the rollback makes it look like both rear legs disengaged from the hoops; I could see no signs of there having been through bolts and have to wonder if they were not attached at the top???

    OK, I have to say it even though it may not be a popular opinion...although the Factory Five roadster bar or bars have their limitations if a builder is truly concerned about safety give real consideration to whether some of the aftermarket alternatives for bars or methods of attachment are having a positive or negative impact on functionality vs. what FFR provides and recommends for means of installation.

    Jeff

    davesmithrollover.jpg

  20. #20
    Senior Member BEAR-AvHistory's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Papa View Post
    Steve,

    My chassis doesn't have any of the welds you are describing. My bars go all the way to the frame as delivered from FFR.

    Dave
    Agree, maybe it was a running change in production.
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  21. #21

    Steve >> aka: GoDadGo
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    Last edited by GoDadGo; 07-06-2018 at 12:41 PM.

  22. #22
    Papa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Kleiner View Post
    That video of the one getting loaded on the rollback makes it look like both rear legs disengaged from the hoops; I could see no signs of there having been through bolts and have to wonder if they were not attached at the top???
    I was thinking the exact same thing. I'll be using the Tangent attachment system on mine. It seems pretty stout and I would guess if installed properly would be adequate for a street-driven car.
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  23. #23
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    Do the shorter Breeze roll bars generally pass the broomstick test?
    Last edited by BrewCityCobra; 07-06-2018 at 02:33 PM.

  24. #24
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    The 2 inch "difference"....case closed.Rollbar shelby.jpg

  25. #25
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    That is how it looks like when you roll in soft ground....deeed.jpg

  26. #26
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    ......and quite frankly, in case of an accident - the roll bar is the last what I'm concerned off!! crash1.jpg

  27. #27
    Senior Member cv2065's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by G-Pete View Post
    ......and quite frankly, in case of an accident - the roll bar is the last what I'm concerned off!! crash1.jpg
    Wow...That's nasty....
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  28. #28
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    Just an FYI. If you are planning HPDE the various groups have their own rules and regulations. Even with a full width bar that would pass the broomstick test the local (MI) Lotus group wouldn't let me run. They were polite but declined my registration. May have been the rollbar but I had more protection than the open Lotus cars, may also have been that it was a Cobra and they were afraid that I wouldn't play nice. No issues with many other run groups at 3 different tracks.
    Jim

  29. #29
    Senior Member cv2065's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim1855 View Post
    may also have been that it was a Cobra and they were afraid that I wouldn't play nice.
    Sounds definitely like this....
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  30. #30

    Steve >> aka: GoDadGo
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    Quote Originally Posted by G-Pete View Post
    That is how it looks like when you roll in soft ground....deeed.jpg

    This Must Have Flipped In Louisiana!

  31. #31
    Senior Member BEAR-AvHistory's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by G-Pete View Post
    ......and quite frankly, in case of an accident - the roll bar is the last what I'm concerned off!! crash1.jpg
    Yeah, non survivable accidents are a fact of life, no pun intended. That said in another case a roll bar might save one, so why not include it. I don't see many people pulling airbags out of their cars because they are no use in a catastrophic accident like in the picture.

    Was the same deal when seat-belts first came out for personal cars. Lots of "I would rather be thrown clear then burn to death trapped in a belt."
    Last edited by BEAR-AvHistory; 07-07-2018 at 10:54 AM.
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  32. #32
    Senior Member walt mckenna's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Jeff Kleiner;331218]Actually, while offering some degree of protection the roadster bars do not meet the requirements for ANY organization; not SCCA, not NASA, not NHRA. Challenge car cage meets NASA and SCCA.

    Jeff[/QUOTE

    While not meeting the requirements for sanctioned racing, the standard bars do meet the requirement for NASA HPDE.
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  33. #33
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    Ok here is one with the roll bar at the same height as the windshield....


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQkqkOwuqac

  34. #34
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    I was at Run and Gun in St. Louis and witnessed Dave roll the car in the video. I have had a pic of the rolled car in my shop ever since. I watched them put it back on the track soon after with duct tape holding the body together. I was convinced then that FFR had the product that I wanted to build. I used larger 7/16” bolts at the bottom and made sure there was shank clear through the bar. I am using the Tangent wedge at the top and am convinced it is plenty strong.
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