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Thread: Meindl Mk IV Build

  1. #321
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    Quote Originally Posted by edwardb View Post
    All of your descriptions are for the Coyote harness. As long as you have power to the front of the PDB, and all the connections completed, I doubt that's where your problem is. You said no power at the ignition switch, no gauges, etc. That all comes from the Ron Francis harness. How do you have the RF harness connected to power? Specifically the large wires in the harness that are routed to battery power, ignition switch, accessory, alternator, etc.?
    Thanks, Paul and Railroad! This is helping us out. So from your messages, i'm thinking that the next thing to check is how I'm getting power (or more likely not getting power) to the ron francis chassis harness. From what i can understand, the place where the RF harness gets its power from the battery is via cables hooked up to the starter - so a line should be coming with 12V to a post on the starter, and then a couple wires from the RF harness are also on that post and thats how the harness gets its power. Here's a picture of the RF harness schematic that i think shows this. The red arrow i drew to show where i think the power is coming in to the rf harness.



    If we test for power there on that post of the starter, we don't have power! So if the above is correct, we're not getting any power to the rf harness, which would cause all the lack of activity when we turn the key. So here are a few photos as we try to diagnose this. The first show the top of the passenger footbox and the red arrow shows where we do have power and then the green where i'd like us to have power but somewhere along the way we don't. I have 3 pictures following the green arrow down to the starter where we test and find no power. Here they are:







    A couple questions:
    1) is it correct that this connection on the starter is where the rf harness gets its power?
    2) where along that green path do you think we are losing power?
    3) any thought on how we get power down to that starter, and thus to the rf harness?

    Thank you so much, guys! We don't know what we'd do without you!

  2. #322
    Senior Member edwardb's Avatar
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    Best I can tell from your descriptions and pictures is that you're still confusing power for the Coyote system via the terminal on the front of the PDB to the power required for the rest of the chassis wiring e.g. the Ron Francis harness. Another way to say it would be wire the RF harness like you would if using something other than Coyote power. Then add the Coyote system, which is just a couple of interconnects.

    Here is what I recommend. There are variations, but this is the basic idea:

    1. Large battery cable from the + terminal on your battery to a binding post (or alternatively a master disconnect) on the firewall. The kit provides a #4 gauge cable. Will work although some upgrade to #2 or even larger.

    2. Large battery cable from the binding post to the large terminal on the starter solenoid. Now you have full +12V battery power to the starter.

    3. Three large wires from the RF harness also on the binding post. (1) RED-BATTERY FEED, (2) RED ALTERNATOR FEED, (3) RED IGN SW -> SOL. Now you have full +12V battery power to the RH harness. Remove and discard the blue starter solenoid and clutch safety switch wire. Not used with a Coyote setup that has its own clutch safety switch. Note: The RF schematic does show these wires attached to a "starter solenoid." This IMO is referencing a firewall mounted solenoid that used to be commonplace. Yes, you can physically drag the wires down to the actual starter, and some do. But it's not necessary and the wires may not reach.

    4. Finally, one remaining large wire from the binding post to the front terminal on the Coyote PDB. Now you have full +12V battery power to the Coyote system.

    With the above in place, your starter, RF harness, and Coyote system will all be powered. The ignition switch should be wired exactly like shown in the RF harness schematic. Assuming you have the other Coyote connections installed properly (ignition sense, start sense, fuel pump, starter wire, cooling fan wire) the Coyote should start and run like it's supposed to.

    Hope that maybe helps.
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  4. #323
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    Quote Originally Posted by edwardb View Post
    Best I can tell from your descriptions and pictures is that you're still confusing power for the Coyote system via the terminal on the front of the PDB to the power required for the rest of the chassis wiring e.g. the Ron Francis harness. Another way to say it would be wire the RF harness like you would if using something other than Coyote power. Then add the Coyote system, which is just a couple of interconnects.

    Here is what I recommend. There are variations, but this is the basic idea:

    1. Large battery cable from the + terminal on your battery to a binding post (or alternatively a master disconnect) on the firewall. The kit provides a #4 gauge cable. Will work although some upgrade to #2 or even larger.

    2. Large battery cable from the binding post to the large terminal on the starter solenoid. Now you have full +12V battery power to the starter.

    3. Three large wires from the RF harness also on the binding post. (1) RED-BATTERY FEED, (2) RED ALTERNATOR FEED, (3) RED IGN SW -> SOL. Now you have full +12V battery power to the RH harness. Remove and discard the blue starter solenoid and clutch safety switch wire. Not used with a Coyote setup that has its own clutch safety switch. Note: The RF schematic does show these wires attached to a "starter solenoid." This IMO is referencing a firewall mounted solenoid that used to be commonplace. Yes, you can physically drag the wires down to the actual starter, and some do. But it's not necessary and the wires may not reach.

    4. Finally, one remaining large wire from the binding post to the front terminal on the Coyote PDB. Now you have full +12V battery power to the Coyote system.

    With the above in place, your starter, RF harness, and Coyote system will all be powered. The ignition switch should be wired exactly like shown in the RF harness schematic. Assuming you have the other Coyote connections installed properly (ignition sense, start sense, fuel pump, starter wire, cooling fan wire) the Coyote should start and run like it's supposed to.

    Hope that maybe helps.
    Paul - thank you so much! This is great - I think I understand what we need to do and it makes sense. We'll need to get some parts and tackle this over labor day weekend - I'm excited to try it out. We'll certainly let you know how it goes and thank you very much for saving the day for us, yet again!

  5. #324
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    Do you have main disconnect switch? ,,,verify you have hot on both post of the disconnect.
    I hope
    20th Anniversary Mk IV, A50XS Coyote, TKO 600, Trunk Drop Box, Trunk Battery Box, Cubby Hole, Seat Heaters, Radiator hanger and shroud.

  6. #325
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    Quote Originally Posted by Railroad View Post
    Do you have main disconnect switch? ,,,verify you have hot on both post of the disconnect.
    I hope
    We don't have a main disconnect switch yet, but per Paul's recommendation, we'll be installing one this weekend. I'll check it for power on both posts - thanks, Railroad!

  7. #326
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    Exciting times Pete!
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  9. #327
    Senior Member edwardb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeteMeindl View Post
    We don't have a main disconnect switch yet, but per Paul's recommendation, we'll be installing one this weekend. I'll check it for power on both posts - thanks, Railroad!
    OK, if you're going to install a master disconnect, you should have the battery power + Coyote PDB on one post, and the starter and RF wires on the other. That way with it off, the Coyote is still getting power as recommended by Ford Performance. With it on, both sides should be powered and everything alive.
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  11. #328
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    Quote Originally Posted by edwardb View Post
    OK, if you're going to install a master disconnect, you should have the battery power + Coyote PDB on one post, and the starter and RF wires on the other. That way with it off, the Coyote is still getting power as recommended by Ford Performance. With it on, both sides should be powered and everything alive.
    Great - thank you, Paul! We will do it that way. Excited to try it out this weekend!

  12. #329
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    1st start - success!!!! :)

    Hi guys,
    Huge day over here - thank you VERY much to Paul for his detailed instructions about the issues we were having with our first start. Following his instructions to the letter gave us our first successful start!!! Yahooooooooooo!! we are all so excited!! Here's a link to watch, filmed by sarah:

    https://youtu.be/AoyesI8ggpo

    We couldn't be happier - thank you so much!!

    A couple funny things happened that we need to investigate:
    - we do seem to get some smoke from the right side of the engine - we will investigate where that's coming from. Smells like plastic burning, perhaps. Don't seem to see any wires up on the headers or anywhere super hot. We'll dig into it more.
    - one thing that's odd is that the fuel pump and the gauges turn on when we connect the battery to the rest of the car through the battery cut off switch, before even turning the key to its first stage. When we turn the key to the first stage nothing additional happens. And then turning the key one more stage turns the engine on, as we'd expect.

    Had a small fuel leak which we tightened up at the fuel pressure gauge. Most everything else looks good!

    Thank you to everyone on the forum for all of your help. We'd never have made it to this stage without you and we are very thankful to you all!

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  14. #330
    Senior Member chmhasy's Avatar
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    Congrads Nice sounding motor. You may want to remember to take off the cardboard cover so the radiator can breath

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    Senior Member SSNK4US's Avatar
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    CONGRATULATIONS Pete!!!!!! First start in just under a year!! I’m soooo jealous.... our body is still on the chassis
    Speaking of bodies, is yours still in the house? Lol
    I also think it’s SO cool that one of the boys got to fire it up! Did they have to battle it out to get to do the honors?
    Congrats again! You guys have done a great job!

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  18. #332
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    Quote Originally Posted by chmhasy View Post
    Congrads Nice sounding motor. You may want to remember to take off the cardboard cover so the radiator can breath
    Ha! yeah, great point. We thought we were just going to test the electrical system but then everything was working (at least sort of...) and so we thought, hey, let's try starting it up! We'll remove the cardboard going forward - thanks!

  19. #333
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    Quote Originally Posted by SSNK4US View Post
    CONGRATULATIONS Pete!!!!!! First start in just under a year!! I’m soooo jealous.... our body is still on the chassis
    Speaking of bodies, is yours still in the house? Lol
    I also think it’s SO cool that one of the boys got to fire it up! Did they have to battle it out to get to do the honors?
    Congrats again! You guys have done a great job!

    Kurt
    Thanks, Kurt! Hope you're feeling well these days!

    Pete

  20. #334
    Senior Member edwardb's Avatar
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    Thanks, and congratulations on getting it running! Huge milestone. You should not have any power to the gauges (via the RH harness) or the Coyote system (via the ignition sense wire) with the key off. I'd suggest you check the ignition switch wiring. It needs to be exactly like the RF schematic. The markings on the switch can be a little difficult to read. I'm guessing something is incorrect and there's battery power to RF ACC and/or IGN circuits with the key off.
    Last edited by edwardb; 09-01-2019 at 11:02 AM.
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  22. #335
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    Congratulations. The camera operators gets extra points for enthusiasm! Love that the first start was a family affair.
    -Steve
    MK IV #8901 - Complete kit, Coyote, TKO-600, IRS. Ordered 5/23/16, Delivered 7/14/16, First Start 8/13/17, First Go-Kart 10/22/17, Registered and Completed 10/18/18. Build Thread: http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...V-Coyote-Build Graduation Thread: https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/show...-Roadster-8901

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  24. #336
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeteMeindl View Post
    Fantastic. I love the family enthusiasm, especially from the camera operator!
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  26. #337
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeteMeindl View Post
    .
    - one thing that's odd is that the fuel pump and the gauges turn on when we connect the battery to the rest of the car through the battery cut off switch, before even turning the key to its first stage. When we turn the key to the first stage nothing additional happens. And then turning the key one more stage turns the engine on, as we'd expect.
    Fantastic! Glad to see it running. Probably not the reason for the power issue but make sure the HAAT wire isn’t connected to battery power. It will reverse feed everything. I had smoke too, I assume it was the Factory Five side pipes and headers burning off surface oil. Mine smelled excessively smokey for a while.
    Last edited by GTBradley; 09-02-2019 at 10:51 AM.
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  28. #338
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    Quote Originally Posted by GTBradley View Post
    Fantastic! Glad to see it running. Probably not the reason for the power issue but make sure the HAAT wire isn’t connected to battery power. It will reverse feed everything. I had smoke too, I assume it was the Factory Five side pipes and headers burning off surface oil. Mine smelled excessively smokey for a while.
    Thanks, GT! Yeah, i think we must have had the same smoke issue as you - now that we've started the car a couple times, the smoke and smell has gone away. Always nice when problems go away that easily!

  29. #339
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    Congratulations. I am just behind you with my build and your thread has been a big help as I have many of the same questions. Looking to have my first start before the end of the month

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  31. #340
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    troubleshooting after first start

    Now that we've had our first start, we're working on troubleshooting a couple issues before we make our first go carting attempt.
    1) fuel leak. We have a pretty decent fuel leak at the connection between the braided fuel return line and the fuel pickup. The green arrow below shows where we think the fuel is leaking, although it's possible it's an inch or so earlier in the braided line, but it's definitely in the braided line connection:



    We've tried taking the line off and making sure the white ring insert is correctly positioned and we've even tried a spare white ring and cap that we had from another line, but we still get a decent leak here. The black cap that you screw in is quite tight and there are no visible threads so it seems like that cap is about as tight as it can go. But we still get a leak that starts up a couple seconds after you start the engine. Do you think this end of the braided line could be faulty? Or is there something else you guys would recommend we do?

    2) Ignition: we've double checked our wires and we think they are all in the right place yet the car still is 'on' when the battery is connected but before you turn the key to the right. We are now doing some connectivity tests and found a great thread on this issue here:
    https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/show...witch-question
    So i'm hoping we'll be able to sort the problem out with this info. I'll let you know!

    Thanks, guys!

  32. #341
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeteMeindl View Post
    Ignition: we've double checked our wires and we think they are all in the right place yet the car still is 'on' when the battery is connected but before you turn the key to the right. We are now doing some connectivity tests and found a great thread on this issue here:
    https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/show...witch-question
    So i'm hoping we'll be able to sort the problem out with this info. I'll let you know!
    Maybe post a picture of the back of your ignition switch including the wiring. There's just no way you should be getting power with the key off. Or remove the Ron Francis RED-IGN SW->SOL wire from master disconnect. If that wire isn't getting battery power, you shouldn't have gauges (along with a bunch of other stuff) and the Coyote system shouldn't initiate the fuel pump, start, etc. If those things are still active with the wire disconnected, you're getting power through another path, which isn't correct.
    Build 1: Mk3 Roadster #5125. Sold 11/08/2014.
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  33. #342
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    Quote Originally Posted by edwardb View Post
    Maybe post a picture of the back of your ignition switch including the wiring. There's just no way you should be getting power with the key off. Or remove the Ron Francis RED-IGN SW->SOL wire from master disconnect. If that wire isn't getting battery power, you shouldn't have gauges (along with a bunch of other stuff) and the Coyote system shouldn't initiate the fuel pump, start, etc. If those things are still active with the wire disconnected, you're getting power through another path, which isn't correct.
    Thanks, Paul. I'll get a picture and post it as well test your idea around removing the red ign sw-> sol wire from the disconnect. Thank you for your help!

    I think we may have a lead on our fuel leak - we heard from ffr that there should be an o-ring in the braided flexible line (not just the white c-ring) and we're missing that, hence the leak...

  34. #343
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    Pete,

    Hope you get the bugs sorted out so you can enjoy the go-cart. Now a question for you. Is the electrical tape on the fuel pump plug there because the clip is broken? I know they tend to snap off and I went through three before I was done. Don't rely on that tape to keep the plug seated! The last thing you want is to be driving months from now and have the car die on you because the plug vibrated loose.

    Dave
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  36. #344

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    Congratulations on the first start. Thats awesome

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  38. #345
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    Awesome progress, Pete! Looks like you're over the hump!
    Mk4 #8861 Complete kit. Delivered: 27 Apr 2016, Roller: 12 Jan 2018

    Forte: 2016 Coyote & cover, alternator, engine controls, clutch kit, bellhousing, Moroso pan, TKO600, midshift, 3.55 axle, 190lph fuel pump, Spectre air inlet and filter. Breeze: battery forward and switch, fuel pressure regulator and braided hose, radiator shroud and mounts. Replicaparts: radiator panel, under dash panel, weathertight connectors.

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  40. #346
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    Quote Originally Posted by Papa View Post
    Pete,

    Hope you get the bugs sorted out so you can enjoy the go-cart. Now a question for you. Is the electrical tape on the fuel pump plug there because the clip is broken? I know they tend to snap off and I went through three before I was done. Don't rely on that tape to keep the plug seated! The last thing you want is to be driving months from now and have the car die on you because the plug vibrated loose.

    Dave
    Great catch, Dave! Yeah, that's exactly what happened to us - the clip broke off. And i've been worried about it ever since! So thank you for bringing it up and forcing us to do something about it. Were you able to buy a new plug with an unbroken clip, cut off the old plug, and then just connect the new plug to the old wires? If so, where did you buy the plug? Thanks a lot!

  41. #347
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    pictures of ignition

    I still need to run some connectivity tests and remove some of these wires to see what happens, per Paul's good suggestion, but here are a couple shots of sarah holding our ignition. I'm hoping to spend some time doing a better job diagnosing this over the coming weekend. Sorry if you really can't tell much from these pictures... Hope everyone's doing well!




  42. #348
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeteMeindl View Post
    Great catch, Dave! Yeah, that's exactly what happened to us - the clip broke off. And i've been worried about it ever since! So thank you for bringing it up and forcing us to do something about it. Were you able to buy a new plug with an unbroken clip, cut off the old plug, and then just connect the new plug to the old wires? If so, where did you buy the plug? Thanks a lot!
    You can get replacement plugs through Summit or RockAuto or just about any auto parts store. Here is an example from Autozone.

    https://m.autozone.com/electrical-an...ness-connector

    They come with a pig tail, so you'll need to cut the broken one off and connect the replacement.

    Dave
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  44. #349
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeteMeindl View Post
    I still need to run some connectivity tests and remove some of these wires to see what happens, per Paul's good suggestion, but here are a couple shots of sarah holding our ignition. I'm hoping to spend some time doing a better job diagnosing this over the coming weekend. Sorry if you really can't tell much from these pictures... Hope everyone's doing well!



    What alternator setup are you using? If it's a one-wire setup, you should only have one of those brown wires hooked up to the ignition. You could be feeding power through the alternator back into your fuse panel through the ignition switch.

    Dave
    Last edited by Papa; 09-04-2019 at 09:50 PM.
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  46. #350
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    Quote Originally Posted by Papa View Post
    What alternator setup are you using? If it's a one-wire setup, you should only have one of those brown wires hooked up to the ignition. You could be feeding power through the alternator back into your fuse panel through the ignition switch.

    Dave
    The Coyote alternator is not a one-wire alternator (it's actually a 6-G FWIW) but I agree it does not use the RF harness BRN-ALTERNATOR-IGN wires. If you have the other end attached to the large post on the alternator, I agree with Dave that could feed +12V battery to the switched circuits even when the key is off. Good catch. The only wire that should be attached to the ACC terminal on the ignition switch is the BRN-ACC FEED->IGN SW. Remove the BRN-ALTERNATOR-IGN wire from the ignition switch and the alternator main post. You could remove the wire completely from the harness if you want. Or just cap both ends firmly.

    Also I see you have two blue wires on the start terminal on the ignition switch. Only the LT BLU-EFI CRANK POWER wire should be connected to the ignition switch. The other end should be connected to the Coyote SMR (Starter Motor Request) wire. Apparently is since you're getting a start function. The LT BLU-IGN SW-NS SW wire is not normally used in a Coyote installation. Including through the RF clutch safety switch and to the starter solenoid as shown in the RF wiring harness schematic. I normally remove those wires completely. But again can be capped at both ends if not removed The small terminal on the starter solenoid should only have the Coyote harness starter lead.

    The other two connections on the ignition switch look OK.

    Hopefully that changes things for the better.
    Last edited by edwardb; 09-06-2019 at 01:26 AM.
    Build 1: Mk3 Roadster #5125. Sold 11/08/2014.
    Build 2: Mk4 Roadster #7750. Sold 04/10/2017. #7750 Build Thread
    Build 3: Mk4 Roadster 20th Anniversary #8674. 03 of 20. 2015 crate Coyote, 2015 IRS. Legal 04/18/2017. #8674 Build Thread and Video
    Build 4: Gen 3 Type 65 Coupe #59. Gen 3 crate Coyote. Delivered 12/2/2017. #59 Coupe Build Thread

  47. Thanks PeteMeindl thanked for this post
  48. #351
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    Quote Originally Posted by Papa View Post
    You can get replacement plugs through Summit or RockAuto or just about any auto parts store. Here is an example from Autozone.

    https://m.autozone.com/electrical-an...ness-connector

    They come with a pig tail, so you'll need to cut the broken one off and connect the replacement.

    Dave
    That's great news - thanks, Dave! I was worried I'd have to buy a much bigger chunk. We'll get that fixed up - thank you!

  49. #352
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    Quote Originally Posted by edwardb View Post
    The Coyote alternator is not a one-wire alternator (it's actually a 6-G FWIW) but I agree it does not use the RF harness BRN-ALTERNATOR-IGN wires. If you have the other end attached to the large post on the alternator, I agree with Dave that could feed +12V battery to the switched circuits even when the key is off. Good catch. The only wire that should be attached to the ACC terminal on the ignition switch is the BRN-ACC FEED->IGN SW. Remove the BRN-ALTERNATOR-IGN wire from the ignition switch and the alternator main post. You could remove the wire completely from the harness if you want. Or just cap both ends firmly.

    Also I see you have two blue wires on the start terminal on the ignition switch. Only the only LT BLU-EFI CRANK POWER wire should be connected to the ignition switch. The other end should be connected to the Coyote SMR (Starter Motor Request) wire. Apparently is since you're getting a start function. The LT BLU-IGN SW-NS SW wire is not normally used in a Coyote installation. Including through the RF clutch safety switch and to the starter solenoid as shown in the RF wiring harness schematic. I normally remove those wires completely. But again can be capped at both ends if not removed The small terminal on the starter solenoid should only have the Coyote harness starter lead.

    The other two connections on the ignition switch look OK.

    Hopefully that changes things for the better.
    Thanks a lot, Paul! That is really helpful - we'll get that done this weekend. I don't know how you know all this stuff....

  50. #353
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    This weekend we worked on the fuel leak on the fuel return right at the gas tank and started on the ignition issues we've been having. The good news is we found a spare end to a flexible fuel line and we went ahead and installed that in place of the one where the leak was and tested it out - no leak! So that's great news. I think the engine runs now without any leaks. We also started to try to debug the ignition following Paul's advice - didn't quite get that finished though as it was a busy weekend. Next weekend we may be able to give go carting a try - hopefully!

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