Roadster Frame sections not straight and true?

[stevant]

Hi all,

See attached pics. Has anyone run into an issue with certain areas of the frame not being true? See attached pics. Both obvious when looking at the car even without a level.

My drivers side upper rail is 1/4" down from level. The 4" tubing is good but the rail is not. My hood hinges at that point.

Untitled.jpg

Next issue is where my tranny A frame mounts to the cross-tube. Take a look how uneven that is. I'm waiting to hear back from FFR on both concerns. Any one else have this issue or is this just my frame when welded up? I'm concerned. It should be perfect or close to it. It's welded up in a jig.

IMG_3333.JPGUntitled.jpg

[phileas_fogg]

I'm not surprised; when I built my lower trunk box I found there was a 1/4" difference across the span of the 3/4" frame members.

The good news is nothing is critical. You'll be whanging on that left side outrigger with a 5 lb hammer and 2x4 to move it inboard 3/4"-1" so that the quick jack holes line up with those in the body, and the outriggers don't touch the body anywhere. Also, the transmission doesn't much care (you could move the bottom of one leg to the top of its mounting tab and leave the other leg on the bottom of its mounting tab to take some of the twist out of the legs).


John

[scottiec]

I'm not surprised; when I built my lower trunk box I found there was a 1/4" difference across the span of the 3/4" frame members.

The good news is nothing is critical. You'll be whanging on that left side outrigger with a 5 lb hammer and 2x4 to move it inboard 3/4"-1" so that the quick jack holes line up with those in the body, and the outriggers don't touch the body anywhere. Also, the transmission doesn't much care (you could move the bottom of one leg to the top of its mounting tab and leave the other leg on the bottom of its mounting tab to take some of the twist out of the legs).


John

^what he said

[stevant]

Thanks.....I feel better now!!

[Avalanche325]

With a Cobra, tape measures and levels won't do much more than scare you.

...but it's all good.

[Mark Dougherty]

what they said.
I can see for your garage and your cart, that you are a very particular person.
You will find many variables on a project such as this that will make you want to pull your hair out.
But when the car is finished you will never notice that 1/4 inch.
the trans mount can be adjusted with a large rubber mallet ( but does nothing for the build )

[GoDadGo]

• Now look at the front of your hood and you will find that it is somewhat less than symmetrical too.
• It doesn't go straight either, but you won't see that flaw even after the car is painted.
• Unless of course you do Very Straight Bumble Bee Stripes on your ride.
• Hang In There Brother; It Will Be Okay!

NOTE: The old Type-65's had a right rear droop that was far more than 1/4 inch.

[wareaglescott]

Is the frame sitting perfectly level on a perfectly level frame cart on a perfectly level garage floor? Couldn’t that account for your error in picture 1?

[mike223]

Is the frame sitting perfectly level on a perfectly level frame cart on a perfectly level garage floor? Couldn’t that account for your error in picture 1?

+1


I hope you're not doing IRS, because that drove me cross-eyed trying to decide what exactly "straight" was (mainly diagonals where you need to measure all that).

Laser levels, strings, center marks, etc - in the end, as the "builder" - you have to figure out what exactly is "straight enough" or "not".

And then "make it so".


But don't put it up on a textured floor, on rollers, on a dolly, with 7 - 8 layers of 2 x 4s and then worry about if FFR's jig is straight???


You are the builder - if it isn't straight enough, then put your finger on exactly where it's not "good enough".

And be willing to take the portaband + welder to it - not blame someone else, or expect someone else to "fix it".



Sorry if that was way too harsh - didn't really mean it that way.


Just offering "my best advice".

[Straversi]

Mike223, that was a bit harsh. Someone else recently posted a photo asking about brackets that didn’t fit and he was correct. FFR bent them wrong and sent out new ones. Nothing wrong with asking the forum if something looks odd.

Some parts of the kit are built to close tolerance or other parts, not so much. How is a first time builder supposed to know?
I don’t think anyone should assume they should saw and weld if something is built wrong. The forum is great for pointing out what is critical and what is not. Let’s keep this forum supportive.

My 2 cents.

-Steve

[mike223]

that was a bit harsh.

Let’s keep this forum supportive.

I should have left it here:

With a Cobra, tape measures and levels won't do much more than scare you.

...but it's all good.

[Jeff Kleiner]

Stevant,
Just so you don't get alarmed later on be aware that the cross tube for the radiator isn't square with the chassis or hood opening and when the body is in position the tubing around the engine bay is not equidistant from the hood opening.

Cheers,
Jeff

[mikeinatlanta]

Being somewhat anal myself, I went with the 4" tubes as my reference point and massaged as needed to get the suspension perfect and square from my initial reference points, and then pretty much all the rest is trim to fit, smooth as needed, make it sort of ok, and move on. I make my anal side feel better by telling myself that all the little imperfections are part of remaining true to the originals. Went so far as massaging my fender flares to be even over the tires after body mounting. Having digitized many an exotic car, I can tell you that left right differences of 1/2" are common on cars of this era and you'd never notice unless doing a left/right digital comparison.

[crendonman]

I don't think that it is unreasonable, to expect anything less, than a perfectly straight chassis frame within tolerances.

Whilst I accept, that it is difficult to prevent weld distortion of the frame, during the manufacturing process even when using jigs, there are datums that should be checked to ensure at least level and straightness.

Certainly the thought of using rubber lump hammers, to achieve a dimensional difference for quick lift jack fixings, seems rather excessive!?

Guess I will just have to wait and see.

REgards

[Presto51]

Stevant,
Just so you don't get alarmed later on be aware that the cross tube for the radiator isn't square with the chassis or hood opening and when the body is in position the tubing around the engine bay is not equidistant from the hood opening.

Cheers,
Jeff

Dang Jeff, take easy on us old folk, I can only look up so many new words in one day

Ron

[MPTech]

Wait until you try to center the rear License Plate Holder/Light on the trunk pad!

Everything is relative and no one else will ever know, unless you tell them. Adjust is and move on. (and I learned a long time ago, NEVER tell your wife something is wrong or you weren't perfect at installing something. She will point it out to everyone that looks at your project. Now when she asks if something is correct, I just tell her "YES it is!".

[Avalanche325]

I don't think that it is unreasonable, to expect anything less, than a perfectly straight chassis frame within tolerances.

Not trying to be overly smart alecky here. But, these are replicas of Cobras. FFRs are magnitudes better in alignment than an original. While FFR makes an excellent kit, it is made so Joe average can afford one, so they may not snap together like Lego.
Quirks are part of owning a Cobra. And a lot of the fun part for me. No way would I put up with what a Cobra throws at me in a daily driver. That is part of what I love when I jump in mine.

[NAZ]

Wow, lot's of comments about things not aligned make an embarrassing story for FFR to read. You say it's 1/4" off but the photo makes it look like more than that. It seems that the consensus here is that it won't be a problem but I'd be disappointed too if my chassis looked like that. All manufactured goods are made to a set of tolerances and usually an engineer establishes these tolerances so that the finished product performs as expected with an eye to keeping manufacturing costs down. As consumers we tend to expect tighter tolerances than the person fabricating the item as the tighter the tolerance the work becomes exponentially more difficult (and expensive).

Having quite a bit of experience manufacturing weldments I am very aware of how difficult it is to hold tight tolerances even in when using a fixture (a jig) but the element in your photo seems to have an excessive amount of side to side variation. I've made my share of car chassis (design, engineered, and fabricated) and it hurts my brain to see something out of alignment this much. But it seems most here would find this not only acceptable but expected. Fortunately, I found my hot rod chassis to be very well made and well within my own standards. So it's puzzling why so many have seen large variances in the roadster chassis and with so many of them made it's also puzzling why FFR would not have worked out all the quality control bugs by now.

[mikeinatlanta]

I'll add that my main frame and suspension mounts were near perfect. I'm not so sure that all the left/right differences are defects. I'm thinking most of it they are all asymmetrical the same.

[Dave Howard]

Hmm. Anyone familiar with Motorola and sigmal six. They reduced variation in their product to the point where defects are counted as defect/million products. Ok, maybe that example is at the other end of the spectrum. The frame in my kit must have been one of the few that came out of the jib within at least 3 standard deviations of FFR standards. Like Naz, it met my own standards for quality. I tell people at car shows the kit went together like a big Mechano set. I didn't have to cut, fab or re-weld anything. No need for a 20lb. sledge hammer to straighten out parts of the frame. The only spacer was under the DS motor mount for the Coyote. Those come standard in the FFR kit now. I've always been a member of the Keep It Simple Stupid club. I try not to over or re-engineer a good product, and I certainly didn't put the lazar level on my frame before building started. These cars are not mass produced production line cars. FFR makes a collection of car parts that allows the owner to build their own car. Therefore, every single car is different. The suspension geometry and wheel alignment are the most critical aspects of the build when it comes to standards and specification. If my rad is a 1/2" to the left of center....who cares. The body sits on foam and bulb seal. No 3 sigma there. I'm glad Stevant mentioned he has reached out to FFR. They will be able to provide the definitive answer on what is right/wrong with their products.

[Duke]

Just for clarification, and I'm sure someone from FFR can confirm or chime in, but when Scott and I were there visiting last month all the frames are built on jigs, with the key parts of the frame clamped and welded while on the jig. Some of the accessory parts that aren't as critical (1/2" square tube items) appeared to be welded in smaller jigs or assembled on the side then welded into place on the larger frame.

[MPTech]

It's actually Six Sigma Certification. I'm not associated with Motorola, but "Six Sigma at many organizations simply means a measure of quality that strives for near perfection. Six Sigma is a disciplined, data-driven approach and methodology for eliminating defects (driving toward six standard deviations between the mean and the nearest specification limit) in any process – from manufacturing to transactional and from product to service." (I was an IT Lead Project Manager and taught Quality Standards).
It is also well known that Quality is directly proportionate to Cost. FFRs are an EXCELLENT value, I'm not saying they couldn't be better, but at a cost.

I've seen competing kits that were much worse.
These are known and reported issues and not worth sweating over. Yes it would be nice if FFR corrected them, but meanwhile Adjust and don't let it bother you. If you want perfection, buy a Kirkham.

[Dave Howard]

It's actually Six Sigma Certification. I'm not associated with Motorola, but "Six Sigma at many organizations simply means a measure of quality that strives for near perfection. Six Sigma is a disciplined, data-driven approach and methodology for eliminating defects (driving toward six standard deviations between the mean and the nearest specification limit) in any process – from manufacturing to transactional and from product to service." (I was an IT Lead Project Manager and taught Quality Standards).
It is also well known that Quality is directly proportionate to Cost. FFRs are an EXCELLENT value, I'm not saying they couldn't be better, but at a cost.

I've seen competing kits that were much worse.
These are known and reported issues and not worth sweating over. Yes it would be nice if FFR corrected them, but meanwhile Adjust and don't let it bother you. If you want perfection, buy a Kirkham.

Well put MPTech. My first "Kaizen" was about 20 years ago. The CEO of the company I was with used to be the head of Bombardier. Kaizen every aspect of work. great concepts and tools to use in every day life.

[mikeinatlanta]

Standard interview answer when asked about Six Sigma. "A blueprint for self improvement designed for those whose cognitive limitations prevent unassisted self assessment, process development, and execution."

EDIT: Answer 2. An easy way for some employees to get VISIO.

[AC Bill]

It would make for a really interesting read, if a non-biased review and comparison, of several of the more popular roadster replica manufactures was done.

It could cover topics like this one, dealing with frames, but also bodies, and builder ergonomics, including modifications required by builders, to fix manufacture errors.
As mentioned FFR makes them affordable for your average Joe, but do the more expensive kits not have issues as well?

[rich grsc]

It would make for a really interesting read, if a non-biased review and comparison, of several of the more popular roadster replica manufactures was done.

It could cover topics like this one, dealing with frames, but also bodies, and builder ergonomics, including modifications required by builders, to fix manufacture errors.
As mentioned FFR makes them affordable for your average Joe, but do the more expensive kits not have issues as well?

On a roller, you would never know because they are finished before you'd see it.

[aks801]

standard interview answer when asked about six sigma. "a blueprint for self improvement designed for those whose cognitive limitations prevent unassisted self assessment, process development, and execution." :d

edit: Answer 2. An easy way for some employees to get visio.

awesome

[mikeinatlanta]

On a roller, you would never know because they are finished before you'd see it.

Agree,
Would also add that you start off less aware having not put it together bolt by bolt. You should see the look on the face of a Ferrari 575 owner when they first learn of the left/right side differences. No amount of consoling helps when they first learn baby isn't perfect.

[stevant]

Hi all,

See attached pics. Has anyone run into an issue with certain areas of the frame not being true? See attached pics. Both obvious when looking at the car even without a level.

My drivers side upper rail is 1/4" down from level. The 4" tubing is good but the rail is not. My hood hinges at that point.

Untitled.jpg

Next issue is where my tranny A frame mounts to the cross-tube. Take a look how uneven that is. I'm waiting to hear back from FFR on both concerns. Any one else have this issue or is this just my frame when welded up? I'm concerned. It should be perfect or close to it. It's welded up in a jig.

IMG_3333.JPGUntitled.jpg

Wow......its been a while since I asked this question and I appreciate the feedback though some harsh, but all good. Appreciate those who realized this is not my full time Gig. I will tell you as an Architectural woodworker by trade, I do know square and level. I have looked at another one this weekend and the A frame is visibly level to the 4" crossbar it's welded too. Mine is not. Needless to say it's nothing a few shim washers will not rectify and something I will correct without a lump hammer or welding torch. I was simply asking if others have had a similar problem just to gauge if it is supposed to be that way, or are others not straight or was mine just a bad weld.

Thanks for all who replied. Here is a pic of it level.........followed by the before pic showing it was not welded level.

Level.jpgNot level.jpg

By the way I did reach out to FFR and sent them pictures. I was told that the drivers side upper rail is designed to be that way to accommodate donor radiators from the Mustang......their exact words. It has nothing to do with the suspension mounts and critical areas as they assured me those are well within acceptable tolerances. I did state though that the hood does hinge on this uneven drivers side upper support but they said it's all part of the design. As for the A frame, they suggested I shim it up to make it level.........straight forward answer.

[Railroad]

Rather than start a new thread, I ran into a challenge yesterday that could be resolved during the welding of the frame. The transmission mounts, attachment to the frame is a challenge that could be eliminated if the trans mount was used in the jigged set up. 2 of the 4 holes had to be slotted and use of a ratchet strap and pry bar to get the bolt holes lined up. It is not the end of the world, but definitely a challenge. When you read, to fit the trans mount before trans installation, you will know why.

[Avalanche325]

I will tell you as an Architectural woodworker by trade, ..............

At least the FFR won't shrink and warp when it dries.

[stevant]

Good one....