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Thread: Jazzman's 1967 Ford Mustang Build: FlipTop gets a Sister!

  1. #41
    Jazzman's Avatar
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    Well I guess things work themselves out for some reason. The 460 didn't work out. The current owner (widow) can't find the title for the car. The IFS replacement providers don't even offer engine mounting for the 460, so it really would be a total custom job. At least for now, the 460 isn't going to happen. Time will tell. Thanks to all for your input. It is really appreciated!

    And Jeff, since the 460 was going to be a total rebuild anyway, yeah, it would likely have ended up a 514 monster!! Oh well. Who knows what may transpire!
    Jazzman

    MKIV #8745 "Flip Top" Roadster, Custom Tilt front, Coyote Engine, Tremec TKO600, Custom Interior. Best of Show winner, Huntington Beach Cruise In 2018.

    1967 Ford Mustang Coupe build thread updated 1/22/2021

    Roadster Frame Dolly Plan

  2. #42
    Senior Member Big Blocker's Avatar
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    Kevin,

    While the 460 would be a formidable engine swap for this project, it's overall weight would just add to the fact that the early Mustangs were very light in the rear end (read: easy to spin out).
    The weight savings of aluminum heads and manifold would help with that aspect a bit and any of the now-popular electronic EFI systems would help with the MPG issue. AOD's can be built to withstand a lot of power but sometimes require you to shift yourself - cool with paddle shifters.

    FWIW, if I was going to rebuild a 460, I'd be searching for some Boss 429 heads to slap on her . . . but that's just me.

    As for places to look for rust; the front of the windshield houses the front air intakes for cabin air circulation and the water drain holes are on the outer points right at the windows edge - early Mustangs were known for this being a poor design and a common place for rust to start building.

    The bottom of the doors have "weep holes" that get plugged and then the door retains water = another rusty spot to check (one of your door pics, shows what happens).

    In the trunk, just in front of the rear wheel wells is another spot that gets poor drainage of the water that seeps thru the wheel well while driving - unfortunately gets in but doesn't get out very easily.

    I'm subscribed and will be watching very closely - brings back fond memories of when I did my '67 Coupe.

    Doc
    FFR3712K (MKII) in Lost Wages Nevada.
    5.0 w/tubular GT-40 EFI, E303 cam, Custom 4 into 4 headers, T5, 3-Link 3.73 rear. Full F5 tubular suspension. Drop Butt mod, Dash forward mod, custom foot box air vents, custom turn signal system. 13" PBR brakes, Fiero E-Brake mod, Flaming River 18:1 rack w/ F5 bump steer kit on Breeze bushings. 17" Chrome Cobra "R's" w/ 275 fronts and 315 rears. MKIV seats. FORD Royal Blue w/ Arctic White stripes.

  3. #43
    Jazzman's Avatar
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    Had a great saturday of destruction today! It's over 100 again here today, and the humidity is high (for us!!), but the temp inside the shop is a comfortable 80 degrees. I had pretty much the entire day to work on the mustang, a rarity recently. I started by removing the entire bumper/grill/radiator/lower valence area.



    The bumper is bent, and may or may not go back on. Depends upon what i can find. The rest of the parts are in decent condition with almost no rust to be found. The only part that proved to be a problem was the heavy bumper support bracket on the PS. There is a lot of rust in the area. One bolt came out with some encouragement, but the other one, the front one, would not come out. It is held on with a nut that is inside the main frame rail. The problem is that there is no way to get a wrench inside the small access hole that is large enough to go around the 5/8" nut inside the frame rail. I will likely just cut the bolt and replace it. I'm thinking on it overnight before I make any rash decisions.

    I removed the front fenders, the door hinges, and the fender splash shields.



    The door hinges are fine, they just need to be media blasted and painted. The splash shields just need to be replaced. The PO riveted on some sort of rubber material in an attempt to prevent water from getting past the broken original material. The shields are just in terrible shape. They will be replace.

    The tough decision revolves around the fenders. The majority of the panels are in pretty good condition. However in the lower corners of each fender there is clear evidence of a bad rust repair job. Worst of all, the fixed areas were not done correctly and are already rusting again! I think it will be better to just replace both the front fenders rather than try to fix an already bad job.



    Now that I have better access to the inside fender panel in the engine compartment, it now is clear there is yet more evidence of incompetent panel repair jobs. The biggest one is the battery tray area at the front of the PS engine compartment panel. Her is the view of the "repair" from the outside of the engine compartment area:



    Creative? Perhaps. Correct? not even close. Effective long term fix? NO. This panel will have to be replaced. It was likely going to get cut out anyway, so I am not exactly heartbroken.

    The rust issues are definitely there, not as bad as they could be but certainly more than anyone wants. Now i have to decide if I will replace the hood cowl box. This is not just an "unbolt and replace" type of a fix. This is a major "cut the spot welds and replace a major piece" type project. The problem is that there is no way to know exactly how much rust is inside that cowl without cutting it open. (At which point you have to replace it anyway!!) Since both the front floors of the interior show evidence of current or previous rust damage, it appears likely that there is some amount of water leak from this cowl area. I think I will probably go ahead and replace the cowl "just in case". I am going to have to do at least part of the front floor area anyway.
    Jazzman

    MKIV #8745 "Flip Top" Roadster, Custom Tilt front, Coyote Engine, Tremec TKO600, Custom Interior. Best of Show winner, Huntington Beach Cruise In 2018.

    1967 Ford Mustang Coupe build thread updated 1/22/2021

    Roadster Frame Dolly Plan

  4. #44
    Jazzman's Avatar
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    Surrounding yourself with the right support network is critical. Factory Five is the beginning of that network. This forum grows out of the Customer focused attitudes of FFR. Clearly you, the members of this forum have become very important to me. You welcomed me when I began, you answered my silly questions, you cheered my successes and laughed with me in my failures! Why do I do a build thread on a Mustang that relatively few may see on a Factory Five Forum? Simple: Because this forum is a safe, helpful, friendly place. I have discovered that other forums are not nearly as welcoming. I want to thank you all for that! You are truly a special group of people.

    After debating (yes again!!) which engine I should choose, and the waterfall of other suspension and framing issues that each choice required, I found another "critical support" source. I had a couple of lengthy phone calls with Rich Smith, owner of MustangsToFear.com. He has a customer centered focus quite similar to FFR. He takes call himself and provides real, useful, information. Also similar to FFR, he has products to address many of the unexpected issues we might run into in the process of a project. Long story short: I will be using a Coyote Motor, and the IFS and IRS systems from Mustangs to Fear. His products appear to have high quality and they are priced more reasonably than many of his competitors.

    With that decision made, I returned to work on the Mustang. I continue to tear it all apart. It continues to be in surprisingly good condition. I have thus far not found any other rust issues other than what I have already written about. I have completely torn apart the trunk area:



    The gas tank looks to be in pretty good shape. A dent or two hear and there, but nothing major. If I keep this gas tank, I will have the exterior powdercoated black to protect it. Should I consider replacing the gas tank? At 50 years old, is it likely to be rusted on the inside and cause me headaches in the future?

    Most everything is out of the cab. All the windows are gone, the heater box is gone, all the air ducting is gone, most of the wiring is removed. I still have to remove the steering system and a couple other minor things under the dash. They are the things that are hard to reach! I am putting off those items until i have to climb in and get the steering system torn out.

    Today was a big day, as I pulled the engine and transmission out. Yesterday I broke my "tool rule" and bought an engine hoist from Harbor Freight. I figured that there was not much that could go wrong on an engine hoist. So yesterday I got the hoist purchased and built. Today I put it to work:





    Now that the engine is out, I can get a good look at it. A little part of me hoped is was some sort of special engine that no one had ever noticed before. Nope, it is pretty much as advertised. It is likely the original engine. It is a 1965 289 block slated as a General Large Ford engine. I am also glad that i took the whole thing out. So many things were done wrong! The engine mount on the DS literally tore as I was getting the engine ready to pull out. The transmission had no bolts holding it to the supporting bracket. I just dropped the transmission support bracket, and the rear end of the transmission fell free. The tranny is only held on to the engine block by two bolts. The transmission has the following written on it in large letters: "Bad Tranny"! Well that's great news!! I am glad I decided to replace all this stuff!

    The last major items are the front and rear suspension. I am leaving them in place as long as I can so I can move the shell around. I have not yet decided how I am going to roll it around and support the body and frame as I put it on my trailer and take it over to the media blaster. If you have any suggestion, preferably with photos, please let me know.
    Last edited by Jazzman; 08-27-2018 at 01:18 AM.
    Jazzman

    MKIV #8745 "Flip Top" Roadster, Custom Tilt front, Coyote Engine, Tremec TKO600, Custom Interior. Best of Show winner, Huntington Beach Cruise In 2018.

    1967 Ford Mustang Coupe build thread updated 1/22/2021

    Roadster Frame Dolly Plan

  5. #45
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    It is interesting that nobody seems interested in a 50 year old 289 engine with unknown updating. Who'd have thunk?!! I have called several auto parts recyclers. They don't stock anything that old! I think I will put it on Craigslist to see if anyone might be interested in it. Other than that, I am not sure what I am going to do with it. Short of turning it into an herb garden, do you have any suggestions what I can do with this thing? (Keep it clean smart-alec's!!) It's a bit big and heavy to keep in perpetuity, and it will make a lousy chandelier!
    Jazzman

    MKIV #8745 "Flip Top" Roadster, Custom Tilt front, Coyote Engine, Tremec TKO600, Custom Interior. Best of Show winner, Huntington Beach Cruise In 2018.

    1967 Ford Mustang Coupe build thread updated 1/22/2021

    Roadster Frame Dolly Plan

  6. #46
    Senior Member wareaglescott's Avatar
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    You could start a natural reef in your swimming pool. Just jump the engine in there and see what happens.

    That is funny about bad tranny written on it! Glad you are scraping that.
    MK4 #8900 - complete kit - Coyote, TKO600, IRS - Delivered 6/28/16 First Start 10/6/16 Go cart - 10/16/16 Build completed - 4/26/17 - 302 days to build my 302 CI Coyote Cobra - Registered and street legal 5/17/17
    Build Thread http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...e-build-thread
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  7. #47
    Senior Member TDSapp's Avatar
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    Pull it apart, take it to a shop and have them vat it and ball peen it, then put it back together and paint it. Make some braces that go from the motor mounts to the floor (for balance) then put it on the living room floor with glass over it. Presto, a coffee table that all the car guys will be jealous of!


    Tim
    Tim Sapp
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  8. #48
    Jazzman's Avatar
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    You guys are too funny!! My wife actually joked that I should make a coffee table out of it, then quickly clarified that there was no way that was going in "Her House"!! Apparently recyclers don't want them, but someone does. I just got a phone call on the Craigslist ad. Some guy wants to buy it and will be here tomorrow with cash. Certainly a good sign, but I am not spending that money just yet!!
    Jazzman

    MKIV #8745 "Flip Top" Roadster, Custom Tilt front, Coyote Engine, Tremec TKO600, Custom Interior. Best of Show winner, Huntington Beach Cruise In 2018.

    1967 Ford Mustang Coupe build thread updated 1/22/2021

    Roadster Frame Dolly Plan

  9. #49
    Jazzman's Avatar
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    Busy week and weekend. The young man that wanted my engine and tranny did indeed come buy to pick it up . . . in a mini van! Yes, we loaded engine and transmission, attached, into the side door of his minivan! I wish I had taken pictures. A nice young man with three kids, trying to restore an old 67 Mustang his mom gave him. Appearantly it is in much worse shape than mine. I made him a good deal to help him out. He wanted to know all about my project, and when he learned that I would be installing a Coyote, he wanted to know if I was going to have to replace the rear end. I confirmed I was. He asked if I would be interested in selling the one I have. We arrived at another sweetheart deal, but at least I don't have to do much to get rid of the old rear end. So last night and today, I tore out the old rear end. I love my air wrench!!





    I borrowed a spring compressor and got most of the front suspension pulled off. It wasn't particularly difficult, but it certainly was nerve wracking.





    Tomorrow we are going to visit our friends new ranch up in the cool part of the state, so no more car work this weekend. The kids come over monday for a Labor day party. Much more important than working on the old car!!

    Have a safe and blessed Labor Day!
    Jazzman

    MKIV #8745 "Flip Top" Roadster, Custom Tilt front, Coyote Engine, Tremec TKO600, Custom Interior. Best of Show winner, Huntington Beach Cruise In 2018.

    1967 Ford Mustang Coupe build thread updated 1/22/2021

    Roadster Frame Dolly Plan

  10. #50
    Senior Member AZPete's Avatar
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    Hey, Kevin, get back to work! It's been 20 days and there's nothing new here to watch and learn. You know, don't you, that some of us depend upon this project for entertainment?
    818S/C : Chassis #25 with 06 WRX 2.5 turbo, ABS, cruise, PS, A/C, Apple CarPlay, rear camera, power windows & locks, leather & other complexities. Sold 10/19 with 5,800 miles.
    Mk3 Roadster #6228 4.6L, T45, IRS, PS, PB, ABS, Cruise, Koni's, 17" Halibrands, red w/ silver - 9K miles then sold @ Barrett-Jackson Jan 2011 (got back cash spent).

  11. #51
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    HOW am I just now seeing this thread? My Father-in-law, the man I credit with my love of Cobras and the reason I am building a kit, restored a 67 fastback and a 66 mustang as well as a 56 T-bird. AFTER I get the cobra built and learn all about fabricating and glass work ;-) I'm going to restore a bronco with my brother for his son. My FIL also worked for Ford for 30 years, let me ask about that VIN plate and see what he knows. Have fun dude.
    "Doddmoore," Mitchell Moore on facebook, Follow Tonks347Cobra on Instagram
    MK IV Complete kit, SB Ford 347, Holley Sniper EFI, TKO 500, Moser 8.8 Solid axle, Wilwoods, Power Steering
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  12. #52
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    Here's my Father-in-law's fastback. His work is out of this world.
    "Doddmoore," Mitchell Moore on facebook, Follow Tonks347Cobra on Instagram
    MK IV Complete kit, SB Ford 347, Holley Sniper EFI, TKO 500, Moser 8.8 Solid axle, Wilwoods, Power Steering
    My Build Thread: Tonks347, The Baker's Build
    Slow and steady wins the race.

  13. #53
    Jazzman's Avatar
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    Wow! Your Fathter in Law sets a High standard! I only hope mine will turn out that beautiful!
    Jazzman

    MKIV #8745 "Flip Top" Roadster, Custom Tilt front, Coyote Engine, Tremec TKO600, Custom Interior. Best of Show winner, Huntington Beach Cruise In 2018.

    1967 Ford Mustang Coupe build thread updated 1/22/2021

    Roadster Frame Dolly Plan

  14. #54
    Jazzman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZPete View Post
    Hey, Kevin, get back to work! It's been 20 days and there's nothing new here to watch and learn. You know, don't you, that some of us depend upon this project for entertainment?
    Ok, Ok, Pete, I'm still among the living. Sorry I have deprived you of entertainment. However, as i remember, I haven't seen updates on your engine either!! So, I'll bring you up to date if you will bring me up to date!

    So the reason that I have been sort of invisible is that i have spent much of the last three weeks helping my son prepare for the SEC Series 7 test. I am proud to say he will be joining me in my business in the near future. He has two more weeks before he takes the test. It was not until this weekend that I had any time at all to work on the Mustang. We did work on his studies diligently this weekend, but we did it in my shop! He studied, I worked on the Mustang and kibutzed. I think I had a much better time than he did!

    The first and most important thing completed this weekend is that the area behind the dash is finally completely cleared out. Compared to FlipTop, the area behind the dash is cavernous! Furthermore it is absolutely loaded with stuff, most of it cracking, rusting, or just filthy. I am so glad to have all that stuff removed.







    I got both the broken front windshield and the perfect rear window removed. It is helpful when the rubber is so old that it cracks. I just had to crack the rubber seal all around the window and push the glass out. The bonding material was also dried and hard. It wasn't even sticky.



    All the wiring harnesses are now pulled out. They will not be reused, but it is nice to have them for reference.
    All the brake and fuel lines are removed.
    The brake power booster is gone.
    The cross member underneath the engine has been removed.
    The upper window seals and their aluminum mounting rails are gone.
    The headliner bows are out. Not sure if they will be reused.

    I think the car is now ready for media blasting. I guess I had better go get my trailer. While it is gone, I am going to have to make some strategic decisions . . .
    Jazzman

    MKIV #8745 "Flip Top" Roadster, Custom Tilt front, Coyote Engine, Tremec TKO600, Custom Interior. Best of Show winner, Huntington Beach Cruise In 2018.

    1967 Ford Mustang Coupe build thread updated 1/22/2021

    Roadster Frame Dolly Plan

  15. #55
    Jazzman's Avatar
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    Now that I can get to see a bit better, It is clear that I have my work cut out for me. I certainly have seen worse rust issues. This car was butchered up by the previous owner, and I am going to have to fix his mess. Lets start with the most obvious problem area: The DS floor. The previous owner cut out the floor, badly, then sort of pieced in a new piece of sheet metal. He did not, however, use the correct piece of floor material, nor did he weld it in! He riveted it in, again, badly,







    Here is what is currently holding the front frame clip to the floorboard: Yep, no welds, just one single aluminum rivet!



    Clearly the DS floor must be replaced. The transmission tunnel will have to be removed and reshaped to allow for the larger automatic transmission that is mated to the 2017 Coyote Engine. Since I am going to be redoing the DS and tranny tunnel at the front, and because there is just a bit of rust at the front seam of the PS floor, I figure I had better just replace the entire floor forward of the seat mountings to the firewall.

    The top of the dash area shows some rust. I hope that after media blasting I can add some strength here and not have to replace the entire dash.

    Jazzman

    MKIV #8745 "Flip Top" Roadster, Custom Tilt front, Coyote Engine, Tremec TKO600, Custom Interior. Best of Show winner, Huntington Beach Cruise In 2018.

    1967 Ford Mustang Coupe build thread updated 1/22/2021

    Roadster Frame Dolly Plan

  16. #56
    Jazzman's Avatar
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    Now lets review the firewall and engine bay area. I will be installing a new front frame clip from Mustangs To Fear (More on that later). The entire front frame will be removed like this:





    The entire frame forward of the firewall and all the engine bay side panels forward of the rearmost 12" or so of the side panels of the engine bay will be cut off and replaced. The torque boxes will be replaced on both sides. Once you remove the front frame clip, you are only left with the firewall and the floor. Since the front half of the floor is being replaced, this leaves only the firewall. I will have to wait until after media blasting to be sure, but here is what I see on the firewall right now:







    Doesn't look too bad up to this point. However, This is the firewall to the outside of the engine bay panels and frame.



    This hole is about the size of a quarter now, and I fear it will only get bigger after media blasting.



    I am not sure If I can patch that hole, or if I will find there are enough other issues with the firewall that I will need to replace the entire firewall. I am really hoping I don't have to go that far.

    Here is my current thinking of the next few steps in this process: (If you have suggestions, I am wide open!!)
    1. Media Blast the entire car. Do not prime it or have it powder coated with primer. I will do that later after I have done all the metal work and panel repair.
    2. Remove the floor that must be replaced to see what I am working with.
    3. Cut and remove the entire front frame clip.
    4. Remove and replace the firewall if I have to.
    5. Install the new MTF Front Subframe.
    6. Install the new front floor pan.

    Does that seem like the logical order to do the metal work? Did I miss anything?
    Last edited by Jazzman; 09-24-2018 at 12:55 AM.
    Jazzman

    MKIV #8745 "Flip Top" Roadster, Custom Tilt front, Coyote Engine, Tremec TKO600, Custom Interior. Best of Show winner, Huntington Beach Cruise In 2018.

    1967 Ford Mustang Coupe build thread updated 1/22/2021

    Roadster Frame Dolly Plan

  17. #57
    Senior Member Fixit's Avatar
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    About a dozen years ago I/we toured an outfit that "dipped" entire car bodies (or whatever) for electrolytic rust removal. They'd media blast the shell, then hoist & dip the car in a positive/negative tank about the size of a shipping container.

    Part of their contract was (paraphrased) is "What you think is solid, may not be...".

    They aren't called "Rustangs" for a joke.

    You're looking to do a MAJOR modification to a structural part of a unibody car, that has a known history of problems in the shock tower and torque box areas. Have it blasted or dipped and see what's left.

    Jan14_01.jpg Jan14_02.jpg Jan14_03.jpg
    Last edited by Fixit; 09-25-2018 at 07:37 PM. Reason: added pics
    John D. - Minneapolis 'Burbs

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  18. #58
    Senior Member AZPete's Avatar
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    Kevin, thanks for giving this Vicarious Viewer a fix. Your pics and words are the best!


    " However, as i remember, I haven't seen updates on your engine either!! "
    Arrgh, you're correct that I've been negligent. I've taken over 4 months to complete a 3-day job. My excuses are only trips to cooler climes and a few beers, whereas your excuse of helping your son is much more respectful and rewarding. My 818C is all done and running well so all I have to do now is re-mount the rear hatch and get the A/C re-charged. I wonder how many days it will take for that half-day job.
    818S/C : Chassis #25 with 06 WRX 2.5 turbo, ABS, cruise, PS, A/C, Apple CarPlay, rear camera, power windows & locks, leather & other complexities. Sold 10/19 with 5,800 miles.
    Mk3 Roadster #6228 4.6L, T45, IRS, PS, PB, ABS, Cruise, Koni's, 17" Halibrands, red w/ silver - 9K miles then sold @ Barrett-Jackson Jan 2011 (got back cash spent).

  19. #59
    Jazzman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZPete View Post
    " However, as i remember, I haven't seen updates on your engine either!! "
    Arrgh, you're correct that I've been negligent. I've taken over 4 months to complete a 3-day job. My excuses are only trips to cooler climes and a few beers, whereas your excuse of helping your son is much more respectful and rewarding. My 818C is all done and running well so all I have to do now is re-mount the rear hatch and get the A/C re-charged. I wonder how many days it will take for that half-day job.
    Hey, Congratulations Pete!! Glad to hear the 818 is back among the living!! By the end of the week, you won't have to recharge the AC for a few months, so get that lid on and get out there!! Hope you are well my friend!!
    Jazzman

    MKIV #8745 "Flip Top" Roadster, Custom Tilt front, Coyote Engine, Tremec TKO600, Custom Interior. Best of Show winner, Huntington Beach Cruise In 2018.

    1967 Ford Mustang Coupe build thread updated 1/22/2021

    Roadster Frame Dolly Plan

  20. #60
    Jazzman's Avatar
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    I scheduled the Mustang to go in for media blasting on October 8th. They say it will be done in only four days. At this point I am not planning on having them apply their powder coating/primer. Since there appears to be a decent amount of panel work to be done, and because the entire front clip is going to be removed, it seems counter intuitive to coat everything with primer just to have to sand it off to do the welding. My plan is to have it blasted, take it home, do all the frame and metal work, take it back, have it touched up again with a bit more blasting, and then have it powdercoated with the primer. It will cost a bit more to have it blasted a second time, but at least I will be able to see all the metal that has to be repaired. Does anyone disagree with this course of action?

    Clearly I will be taking the big stuff in for media blasting: The entire body, the front fenders, the doors, the hood, the trunk lid, the front and rear lower valances. However, I have an entire pile of miscelaneous parts that I think I should take in for blasting. Things like the headlight cowels, a bunch of metal stuff from under the dash, the trunk and hood hinges, transmission support, window glass tracks, etc. Should I take in all the "little stuff" to be blasted?



    I have ordered a Blair Spot weld drilling kit. It appears that I am going to be punching out a lot of spot welds in the near future!
    Last edited by Jazzman; 09-26-2018 at 01:26 AM.
    Jazzman

    MKIV #8745 "Flip Top" Roadster, Custom Tilt front, Coyote Engine, Tremec TKO600, Custom Interior. Best of Show winner, Huntington Beach Cruise In 2018.

    1967 Ford Mustang Coupe build thread updated 1/22/2021

    Roadster Frame Dolly Plan

  21. #61
    Jazzman's Avatar
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    Thanks, Mr. Fixit, for your counsel. It is truly appreciated. I have heard of the dipping process. I looked around for such a service a while back, but did not find a provider in the Phoenix area. It may be here, but I couldn't find it. What I did find out by talking to 1)my painter, 2) the local media blaster, and 3) my friend that has restored over a dozen cars, is that the unanimous consensus is that dipping is a really harsh process that may do as much harm as good. Two of the three of these people have seen my mustang, and though it has issues, they did not feel that it was so far gone that dipping might be worth the risk. After tearing the car apart, thus far the damage seems manageable. I will be interested to see what I learn after media blasting.

    Thanks for reading along, and thanks for the continued input!!
    Jazzman

    MKIV #8745 "Flip Top" Roadster, Custom Tilt front, Coyote Engine, Tremec TKO600, Custom Interior. Best of Show winner, Huntington Beach Cruise In 2018.

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  22. #62
    Senior Member AZPete's Avatar
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    Speaking of dipping, Mark Donohue explained in his book "The Unfair Advantage" that in the 1960s he used to dip his racing car chassis in acid to reduce weight! Eventually, he and other racers discovered that strength/reliability/laps also were reduced.
    818S/C : Chassis #25 with 06 WRX 2.5 turbo, ABS, cruise, PS, A/C, Apple CarPlay, rear camera, power windows & locks, leather & other complexities. Sold 10/19 with 5,800 miles.
    Mk3 Roadster #6228 4.6L, T45, IRS, PS, PB, ABS, Cruise, Koni's, 17" Halibrands, red w/ silver - 9K miles then sold @ Barrett-Jackson Jan 2011 (got back cash spent).

  23. #63
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    "All things work together for Good for those that Love God". In the grand scheme of things, on the scale of challenges experienced by our brother GoDadGo, the events of the past couple of days are on the minor end of the scale. But it has not been a great couple of days! Yesterday we were told that our beloved dog, Abby, needs bilateral knee surgeries. You might remember seeing photos of Abby as a very young pup sleeping in the footwell of my MKIV. That was only 18 months ago. Now as a very young dog, she has two torn ACL's. She has her first Knee surgery next Wednesday. Needless to say, this expense was not expected, and is quite significant. Therefore the media blasting is off for now. The work, however is not. I will just do what I can do at little to no expense.

    I plan to replace the entire front frame with the Mustangs to Fear Full Front Subframe. I had planned to have the car media blasted,then begin cutting off the front of the car. Now I am going to reverse the process. I will cut off the front of the car, do all the metal work, then have the entire car and new frame media blasted. Tonight I began taking measurements of the front clip.

    I am adding the photos and measurements here for future documentation purposes. When I first inspected the car, it did not appear that the car had ever experienced any frame damage. I am pleased to report that this first inspection proved correct. The frame and engine bay are both straight, square, and true. All measurements are taken from the very corner of the engine cowl:

    The DS upper rail of the engine bay: 44.5"





    The PS upper rail of the engine bay: 44.5"



    Jazzman

    MKIV #8745 "Flip Top" Roadster, Custom Tilt front, Coyote Engine, Tremec TKO600, Custom Interior. Best of Show winner, Huntington Beach Cruise In 2018.

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  24. #64
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    To check Square:

    from DS Cowl to PS tip of engine bay: 65"





    from PS Cowl to DS tip of Engine Bay: 65"





    I am trying to figure out what other measurements I should take before I cross another "point of no return". (That particular point in the build process feels all to familiar. I seem to remember the last time I did something like that!!!)
    Jazzman

    MKIV #8745 "Flip Top" Roadster, Custom Tilt front, Coyote Engine, Tremec TKO600, Custom Interior. Best of Show winner, Huntington Beach Cruise In 2018.

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  25. #65
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    Sorry to hear about Abby. Hopefully she will come through without problems and have better joints than before the tears. As for other measurements, you'll need some height ones taken from a point of reference that can be duplicated when the new clip is being installed.
    King
    Roadster #8127, ordered 7/12/13, received 9/11/13
    http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...4-Coyote-Build

  26. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2bking View Post
    you'll need some height ones taken from a point of reference that can be duplicated when the new clip is being installed.
    Yep, your counsel is sage as always. I got a similar comment from the MTF people. I started putting the car back onto jack stands this morning so I can take some solid measurements. I am leveling the car as much as possible. I will take measurements as soon as I can get back out to the shop. Today is a big study day with my son, so probably won't be till later.
    Jazzman

    MKIV #8745 "Flip Top" Roadster, Custom Tilt front, Coyote Engine, Tremec TKO600, Custom Interior. Best of Show winner, Huntington Beach Cruise In 2018.

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  27. #67
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    After 8 hours of studying, it was definitely time to get out into the shop. The AC had all day to get the temperature inside to a nice comfortable 78 degrees. This morning I got the Mustang back on Jack stands, and this evening I started by making sure it was a level as i could get.



    DS Door frame level: just slightly nose high, but at close as I could get.



    Inside DS frame rail inside the engine bay: just slightly tail high!



    Inside PS frame rail inside the engine bay: almost perfectly dead flat!



    Across the front frame rail that would hold the radiator: PS 1/2" higher than DS:

    Jazzman

    MKIV #8745 "Flip Top" Roadster, Custom Tilt front, Coyote Engine, Tremec TKO600, Custom Interior. Best of Show winner, Huntington Beach Cruise In 2018.

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  28. #68
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    Next I took the vertical heights of the TOP of the front frame rail.

    DS front rail corner: 25.5"



    PS Front rail corner: 26"



    Inside engine bay DS TOP of Frame Rail, 2" behind corner: 25.5"



    Inside engine bay PS TOP of Frame Rail, 1" behind corner: 25 15/16"

    Jazzman

    MKIV #8745 "Flip Top" Roadster, Custom Tilt front, Coyote Engine, Tremec TKO600, Custom Interior. Best of Show winner, Huntington Beach Cruise In 2018.

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  29. #69
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    Now imagine moving stuff around including the car, cutting the front off, and trying to figure out what's wrong when nothing seems to line up right while positioning the new clip. The floor of the garage isn't completely flat and all you have is two height measurements and some level pictures. Maybe that'll be enough but some more measurements would build confidence that you've got the new clip positioned properly. Maybe one way of doing this would be to mark the garage floor as to where exactly all the measurements were taken from and what was where.

    Another would be to stretch four string lines level making a rectangle and take several vertical measurements from it to points of interest on the body and front frame. This method would allow you to recreate the relation between the body and front frame without having to level the car. When time comes to measure the new clip, you would position the string lines so the body measurements were correct and then measure from the string to the front clip.
    King
    Roadster #8127, ordered 7/12/13, received 9/11/13
    http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...4-Coyote-Build

  30. #70
    Jazzman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2bking View Post
    Now imagine moving stuff around including the car, cutting the front off, and trying to figure out what's wrong when nothing seems to line up right while positioning the new clip. The floor of the garage isn't completely flat and all you have is two height measurements and some level pictures. Maybe that'll be enough but some more measurements would build confidence that you've got the new clip positioned properly. Maybe one way of doing this would be to mark the garage floor as to where exactly all the measurements were taken from and what was where.

    Another would be to stretch four string lines level making a rectangle and take several vertical measurements from it to points of interest on the body and front frame. This method would allow you to recreate the relation between the body and front frame without having to level the car. When time comes to measure the new clip, you would position the string lines so the body measurements were correct and then measure from the string to the front clip.
    Interesting idea King. I will have to think on that. I came across this video of how to measure and install the MTF Subframe. This really helped me understand what to measure. (I am off to take more measurements when I get done writing this!!)

    My plan seems to change daily. Before yesterday evening here was the plan: (All this to be done before the car is moved again)
    1. Cut out the floor and possibly the lower portion of the firewall, replace it and get it welded back into place.
    2. Cut and remove the entire stock front subframe.
    3. Install and weld in the new front subframe.
    4. Do an other clearly visible rust repair
    5. Get the entire car media blasted and powder coat primered.

    Last night I did my first metal removal. The DS front floor in front of the seat thrones. (I don't know what to call them, but the seats sit on a raised and raked area, sort of like a throne.) You may remember that the previous owner had done a terrible job of fixing the rusted front floor. He did not buy the correct replacement pan and weld it in. He took a piece of sheet metal and bent it to fit, then riveted it into place. He then slathered some type of black goo all around it. It mostly kept the water out of the inside of the car, but it created a place for water to gather on the underside of the car. Short version: it has to go!

    I started with a wire wheel and started buffing down through the black goo to find the rivets. it took a while to find them all, but I drilled them all out. Then I used a breaker bar and a hammer to separate the junk panel from the remainder of the car. That took some doing too, but thankfully whatever black goo he used had mostly become hard and brittle. Once I found an edge I could get under, it pulled up relatively easily . . . Until I hit that one spot! You know the spot . . . the one where everything else is loose, the panel is ready to come out, but there is one thing holding on tight. I tried to drill it out thinking it was a rivet that I had missed. No joy. I then tried to grind it down to release the panel. Nope. Finally I cut the panel around it and the panel came free. I still don't know exactly what that item was, but I will have to cut off the remainder and grind it down if I plan to keep that area of the floor. (It is in an area that is likely to be trimmed to fit in the new front floor.

    (Lesson #next: cutting sheet metal with a grinding wheel is painfully slow! I may have to look into buying or renting a plasma cutter. Do I know how to use a plasma cutter? Noooooooo! But when has that ever stopped me before!!)

    Now that I can see remainder of the floor area, it is a mixture of good and bad:

    The front subframe rail is, surprisingly, not rusted. Of course it is coming out anyway, but it is good to know that the rust does not seem to have spread here.



    The "floor" (tissue paper!!) between the frame rail and where the transmission tunnel rises is garbage! I can only imagine that the rest of the DS floor must have been similar before the previous owner did his bad fix.



    I put my hammer right through that part of the floor with no effort at all!!



    The outboard side of the interior floor is a real problem. Rust doesn't seem to be an issue, but the previous owner cut the original floor right against the vertical side. He left no flange to attach the new floor to. Not insurmountable perhaps, but yet one more challenge.



    The front of the floor where it turns and rises into the firewall looks sketchy at best. I think the replacement floor pans rise some in this area. I am hoping to not have to remove the entire firewall, but that is still an open possibility.



    I drilled out my first four spot welds. I decided to do it where the front subframe meets the lower firewall for several reasons. 1) it is likely that this lower firewall area will be cut out and replaced anyway. 2) it will be relatively unseen if I screw it up, 3) I believed (wrongly) that I would be drilling through relatively thin floor metal (true) into relatively thicker frame rail metal (barely true if at all, possilbly false!) I had not noticed that the flange on the subframe turns outward away from frame rail. I had incorrectly assumed it would turn inward like a "C" channel. I learned on the MTF forum that it is better to weld thinner material to thicker material. Since the stock subframe is coming out anyway, I figured that any holes left in the firewall pan would be correctly welded to the thicker new subframe material. Now that I have drilled out the sheet metal from the inside, I see that the holes may end up being outside of the size of the new subframe rail. I know that the MTF subframe uses larger, fully boxed framing material, but I am not sure it will be that much bigger. Time will tell.

    Lesson #next: cleaning all the layers of rust, paint, black goo, etc off this car where I am going to have to do metal work is going to be very slow and tedious. It is imperative to do so that I can see the spot welds that have to be drilled to separate the panels and frame. I now see the very real advantages of media blasting!! Media blasting has now become a much higher priority on the list. As has a plasma cutter!!

    I know that the transmission tunnel has to be modified to accept the larger 6 speed automatic transmission that is mated to the 2017 Coyote motors. I have got to find some one who has done this and see photos of how and how far back they had to modify the tunnel. Deciding now what I will do with the tunnel plays into my decision about what floor repair I do. If I am going to cut out most of the tunnel anyway, perhaps I will replace the entire front floor ahead of the seat thrones on both PS and DS of the car. (I still have to take a look at the floor on the PS.) If I can simply modify the existing tranny tunnel, then perhaps I will just install individual floor pans and leave the main tunnel in tact.
    Last edited by Jazzman; 09-30-2018 at 11:22 AM.
    Jazzman

    MKIV #8745 "Flip Top" Roadster, Custom Tilt front, Coyote Engine, Tremec TKO600, Custom Interior. Best of Show winner, Huntington Beach Cruise In 2018.

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  31. #71
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    It is 3:15am and raining cats, dogs, an little fish! In some areas of the country this may be a non event, but here in Arizona rain, any rain, is an event. And boy do we do it up right!! The lightning storm that comes along with it is breathtaking! Of course, I would prefer if it occurred at a more reasonable time of night, but beggars can't be choosers. Since I am up anyway, I figured I would share my very early morning with you.

    This past week has been completely taken up by training classes for my son. He takes his major exam tomorrow. (Prayers for his wisdom, patience, peace, would be appreciated!!) I only got back into the shop briefly last night for the first time in over a week. I returned to the task of slowly preparing to remove the entire front subframe from the car. In order to see the weld locations, I am having to remove the paint, undercoat, grime, dirt, and God knows what else along the weld points. This required me to once again don one of my least favorite things:



    I have eight major areas of welds that have to be removed. I am going to place them in the order I think I need to remove them to safely remove the front subframe:

    1. Welds at the top of the shock towers where the towers meet the top of the rear engine bay side panel.
    2. Welds along the vertical point where the shock towers meet the rear engine bay side panel.
    3. Removal of the support brace that goes between the sub-frame rails at the top underside of the tranny tunnel.
    4. Welds on the interior floor that weld the floor panel to the sub-frame
    5. Welds on the interior floor to firewall angled panel that joint this panel to the sub-frame
    6. Welds where the sub-frame meets the firewall to floor angled panel.
    7. Removal of the DS torque box.
    8. Welds along the bottom of the rear engine bay side panel where it meets the sub-frame. (Removing this last because it supports the entire subframe in the horizontal direction)

    First question: Do I have this order of removal correct?

    I started with the top of each engine bay becasue it was easy to see and to practice my spot weld cutting technique. Knowing how deep to go is still challenging. I think I am tending to go too deep, but the parts are coming apart, so that's a win! I started on the DS:



    It looks pretty good and came off cleanly. Then I moved to the PS:



    Definately not so good. I am wondering how long the MTF top rails are that come with the engine bay side panels? I will use these replacement sides because they fully replace where the shock tower has been deleted. If the top piece will cover that rust, I will not worry about it. If they will not, I may have to remove this side piece as well. (I may have to remove it anyway if I have to replace the firewall.)

    I then moved down the inside of the shock towers. These both came loose pretty easily. I am finding that the cutter heads for the spot weld cutter don't last as long as I had hoped they might. I am already into my second cutter head. I don't know if anyplace could sharpen these things. May have to buy quite a few more, but at $9 a piece, you don't want to have to buy too many of them!!





    Its not a great picture, but you can see that the side panels are now completely separated from the shock tower:



    Each step has it's issues, and I am debating how to proceed in each area. As an example:

    I plan to remove the spot welds at the bottom of the rear side engine bay panel last. my thoughts are that these are supporting the rest of the sub-frame until the very last moment. However, these welds are on the INSIDE of the engine bay. In order for me to drill them out, I have to be either 1)underneath the car, not a good place to be when the entire sub-frame is finally loosed, or 2) i have to be standing in the middle of the engine bay, also not a great place to be when the sub-frame is finally free. Any ideas on how to get the welds drilled out by not kill myself in the process?

    The DS floor and the floor to firewall panel are in worse shape than I had originally believed. It appears that it will take a floor panel that goes well up the floor to firewall panel to get all the rust out. I am fearing that a full firewall replacement may be in my future, but I am still trying to avoid it. Since the floor to firewall panel is rusted out where the welds would have been, I can't see where there are/were. As bad as the rust is, I am not sure i even need to drill the welds out. They might just pull apart. But I don't want to take any chances. I am thinking of cutting the floor to firewall panel up to the top of the sub-frame so it will be completely loose. The risk is that it may force me to replace more or all of the firewall and floor to firewall panel which I would like to avoid. The benefit is that I will be able to see where the rusted material ends and the good material begins. What do you think?

    The support brace that goes between the sub-frame rails at the top of the opening for the tranny seems to only be attached by welds at the ends on the subframe. Is is generally welded to the floor pan? I assume this has to be removed in order to get to the sub-frame, right?

    Last edited by Jazzman; 10-07-2018 at 06:36 PM.
    Jazzman

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  32. #72
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    It is becoming much more clear that I am not sure I can cut all the metal that needs to be cut with just a grinder, or even a body saw. I think I may need to buy or borrow a plasma cutter. I can't figure how to cut the main subframe or the torque boxes without a plasma cutter. I am really not eager to buy a plasma cutter. They are NOT cheap! I can't think of anyone I know that has a plasma cutter. I am debating the relative merits of hiring a mobile welding/cutting company to come here and cut off what I want gone. While it will cost some $$$, it probably won't cost as much as buying, then having to store, a plasma cutter. I found a Miller Spectrum 375 Plasma cutter, 3 years old, on craigslist for $800. A buddy will split the cost with me. I may pick it up. I am also considering buying a new Eastwood plasma cutter. Only about $470, and new. I am not a pro shop (clearly!!) and wonder if this lesser tool would be adequate for my needs. I like to always buy the good tools, not the trash throw away tools. Wonder which one this is? What is your opinion?

    Here is the DS Torque Box. (the PS doesn't have one. Is this a problem?)



    It appears that there are two layers of about 1/8" thick material here. WHy are there two layers, and do they both get removed?

    Last edited by Jazzman; 10-07-2018 at 06:36 PM.
    Jazzman

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  33. #73
    Senior Member wareaglescott's Avatar
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    Interesting stuff Kevin. Reading this a couple days late so I hope your sons test went well.

    I have found all sorts of additional uses for my engine hoist. For your issue of being under the car when you free the front clip could you rig up the hoist with some lifting straps and have it supporting the weight so that when it comes free it is supported and no problem to be under it? Maybe also use some jack stands for added safety?
    MK4 #8900 - complete kit - Coyote, TKO600, IRS - Delivered 6/28/16 First Start 10/6/16 Go cart - 10/16/16 Build completed - 4/26/17 - 302 days to build my 302 CI Coyote Cobra - Registered and street legal 5/17/17
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  34. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzman View Post
    It is becoming much more clear that I am not sure I can cut all the metal that needs to be cut with just a grinder, or even a body saw. I think I may need to buy or borrow a plasma cutter. I can't figure how to cut the main subframe or the torque boxes without a plasma cutter. I am really not eager to buy a plasma cutter. They are NOT cheap! I can't think of anyone I know that has a plasma cutter. I am debating the relative merits of hiring a mobile welding/cutting company to come here and cut off what I want gone. While it will cost some $$$, it probably won't cost as much as buying, then having to store, a plasma cutter. I found a Miller Spectrum 375 Plasma cutter, 3 years old, on craigslist for $800. A buddy will split the cost with me. I may pick it up. I am also considering buying a new Eastwood plasma cutter. Only about $470, and new. I am not a pro shop (clearly!!) and wonder if this lesser tool would be adequate for my needs.
    I'm trying to work up the courage to buy a plasma cutter, myself. I say courage, because it's a few hundred bucks for something I'm not sure HOW often I'll use. Same boat as you, sounds like. I've watched some guys using the cheap boxes on youtube, and it seems like as long as you get one of the 220V units (even the dual voltage, as long as you RUN it on 220) are pretty good for the price, especially for hobbyists. It's pretty neat that you have a friend who would split it with you. Might also be able to get away with selling it when you're done, if you don't mind the hassle.

  35. #75
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    We have a plasma cutter can't live without it now!

  36. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by wareaglescott View Post
    I have found all sorts of additional uses for my engine hoist. For your issue of being under the car when you free the front clip could you rig up the hoist with some lifting straps and have it supporting the weight so that when it comes free it is supported and no problem to be under it? Maybe also use some jack stands for added safety?
    You are right, but i realized I was making a project out of it. I was trying to neatly remove the entire front end as one piece. For what?!! I am not reusing it, it is too rusted for anyone else to want it. I can practice my plasma cutting skills and cut it off in manageable chunks! That way I will never have to be underneath it. Now if I can just get this guy from Craigslist to call me, I'll buy me a plasma cutter!
    Jazzman

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  37. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by turbomacncheese View Post
    I'm trying to work up the courage to buy a plasma cutter, myself. I say courage, because it's a few hundred bucks for something I'm not sure HOW often I'll use. Same boat as you, sounds like. I've watched some guys using the cheap boxes on youtube, and it seems like as long as you get one of the 220V units (even the dual voltage, as long as you RUN it on 220) are pretty good for the price, especially for hobbyists. It's pretty neat that you have a friend who would split it with you. Might also be able to get away with selling it when you're done, if you don't mind the hassle.
    Well perhaps I might loan it to you when you need it! Lets face it, it is one of those tools you need rarely, but when you need it, there is just nothing else! Here's hoping I can get it!!
    Last edited by Jazzman; 10-14-2018 at 02:31 AM.
    Jazzman

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  38. #78
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    Today we had one of the longest rainstorms in recent memory. In Arizona, if I rains for six hours solid, you can be pretty sure someone is building an Ark someplace!! So what is a man to do but drive 50 miles one way in the torrential rain to buy a used Plasma cutter!! Picked this up this morning:



    Once I got home (after witnessing not less than three cars that had spun out on the wet freeway and smashed into the nearest wall!!) I set up the cutter and practiced a bit. Since the entire front subframe is going to be replaced, I had lots of places to practice. I decided to start small and remove a piece of sheet metal from the radiator support area. I was quickly reminded of how very nice it is to use the right tool for the job! The concept of a hot knife through butter takes on an entirely new level with this thing!! I am not ready to quit my day job yet, but I was really please with my first attempt.





    Maybe I am just getting cocky, but it is time to attack the frame. (That's why I bought it right?!!) I slice down the inside of the main frame rail just below where I had already broken the spot welds. I cut across the top of the frame rail on both sides of the sheetmetal, then down the outside of the frame rail. Just as I had planned, it became clearly obvious when I had really cut completely across the frame:



    Just a bit more pressure, and the entire front end slowly bent to the floor.



    One more quick slice on either side, and presto! The entire front frame falls free.



    Clearly I have crossed the next point of no return . . .
    Jazzman

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  39. #79
    Senior Member AZPete's Avatar
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    "Clearly I have crossed the next point of no return . . "
    LOL.
    818S/C : Chassis #25 with 06 WRX 2.5 turbo, ABS, cruise, PS, A/C, Apple CarPlay, rear camera, power windows & locks, leather & other complexities. Sold 10/19 with 5,800 miles.
    Mk3 Roadster #6228 4.6L, T45, IRS, PS, PB, ABS, Cruise, Koni's, 17" Halibrands, red w/ silver - 9K miles then sold @ Barrett-Jackson Jan 2011 (got back cash spent).

  40. #80
    Senior Member TDSapp's Avatar
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    Jul 2015
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    Frisco, TX
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    580
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzman View Post
    Clearly I have crossed the next point of no return . . .
    I think you did that when you wrote the check for the car...
    Tim Sapp
    11110001101
    Build Blog: http://hotrod.sapp-family.com/blog/

    33 Hot Rod
    Delivered 5/31/2017

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