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Thread: Folks with 347 dart engine. What oil are you using?

  1. #1
    Senior Member broku518's Avatar
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    Folks with 347 dart engine. What oil are you using?

    Hello.

    I about to replace my engine oil. Drove ~500 miles and it is time to change the brake in oil.

    What engine oil are you guys using? 5 or 6 quarts?
    I have been told to use 10-40w with zzdp additive.
    I am looking for more tips and hints.

    Car will be driven in south and no racing or any craziness...

    Thanks,
    Broku518
    Life is short, so start living it.
    Build thread: http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...-in-the-garage!
    delivery date: 10/31/2017, first start 2/24/2018, title and registration passed 6/22/2018

  2. #2

    Steve >> aka: GoDadGo
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    Broku,

    If you are using a flat tappet solid or flat tappet hydraulic cam, then you will need to run a high Zinc and Phosphate Oil or add a ZZDP additive.

    I'm all Dart (383 SBC) with a hydraulic roller cam and roller rockers and I will likely run an oil with high zinc for a while before switching to Mobil One Extended Performance 10W30, but that is just because I had a lot of luck with that oil in my recently sold daily driver that I had forever.

    (1995 C-4 Corvette) https://youtu.be/svZX2BMSDEs

    If you are running a hydraulic roller set up, then you really don't need that style of oil, but it won't hurt anything unless you are running fuel injection because the Zinc and Phosphates tend to mess up O2 sensors. If you are running a Mechanical Roller Cam without fuel injection, then I'd probably run the ZZDP enriched oil too.

    Just understand that I'm not a professional engine builder, just a dude building a car just like you; however, I do park at a Holiday Inn every day which is almost as good as sleeping at a Holiday Inn Express every night.

    Good Luck & I Think Your Camshaft Really Will Determine Whether You Need The High Zinc & Phosphate Enriched Oil!

    Steve
    Last edited by GoDadGo; 07-18-2018 at 09:45 PM.

  3. #3
    Seasoned Citizen NAZ's Avatar
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    What does your engine builder recommend? Absent that, you won't go wrong following Steve's advice.

  4. #4
    Senior Member edwardb's Avatar
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    The instructions from the engine builder for my DART 347 in #7750 (Fordstrokers in the Chicago area) was: Two quick initial oil changes 75-100 miles apart. Open and check oil filter. After 1000-1500 miles with conventional dino oil, could switch to synthetic oil if I wanted to. Recommended weight 10W-30. Only drove it two seasons before selling, but I continued to run conventional since it was changed every season. The amount of the fill is going to depend on your oil pan.

    A little late for you at 500 miles, but that's still OK IMO. Wouldn't hurt to cut open your oil filter and check for metal. Pretty unlikely, but doesn't hurt.

    If you have a roller cam and lifters, as already stated, you don't need the additive. Something you should know from your engine build info. I'd be surprised if it's not a roller. But you should confirm.
    Last edited by edwardb; 07-18-2018 at 10:08 PM.
    Build 1: Mk3 Roadster #5125. Sold 11/08/2014. Build 2: Mk4 Roadster #7750. Sold 04/10/2017. Build Thread
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  5. #5
    Senior Member tonywy's Avatar
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    I'm have a big block flat tappet 460 , using Amsoil Z Rod 20/50. This oil is a high ZDDP formula designed for engines like these. This oil is also available in 10/30.

  6. #6
    Senior Member broku518's Avatar
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    Thanks guys for your inputs. Sadly, I am not sure what parts (people mentioned above) were used in my engine. Feel little stupid
    The main objective was dependability.

    For some reason I was hoping this would be as easy as changing an oil in any daily driver. I will definitely touch base with M. Forte and get the right stuff from him.
    I was advised to do the first change after 500 miles of easy driving.
    Life is short, so start living it.
    Build thread: http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...-in-the-garage!
    delivery date: 10/31/2017, first start 2/24/2018, title and registration passed 6/22/2018

  7. #7

    Steve >> aka: GoDadGo
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    If you are running a Carburator and not sure about your camshaft type (Roller vs Flat Tappet) then simply run an oil that has a good ZDDP count in it and you won't go wrong.

    Check your oil pressure at idle once you get your engine at operating temperature and remember that both Coolant & Oil Temperatures need to be in the same respective ball park. Remember also that 20W50 will yield much higher pressures than 5W20 simply because one is thicker than the other, but also remember that running a thicker oil robs power and often doesn't flow well in tight tolerance engines.

    If your oil pressure is good at idle and wide open throttle, not overly high or low, then stay with that weight oil. Start with 10W30 or 10W40 and you should be fine, but again keep an eye on those idle and wide open throttle pressures as you drive.

    Good Luck From NOLA!
    Last edited by GoDadGo; 07-19-2018 at 01:08 PM.

  8. #8
    Senior Member SSNK4US's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoDadGo View Post
    Broku,

    If you are using a flat tappet solid or flat tappet hydraulic cam, then you will need to run a high Zinc and Phosphate Oil or add a ZZDP additive.

    I'm all Dart (383 SBC) with a hydraulic roller cam and roller rockers and I will likely run an oil with high zinc for a while before switching to Mobil One Extended Performance 10W30, but that is just because I had a lot of luck with that oil in my recently sold daily driver that I had forever.

    (1995 C-4 Corvette) https://youtu.be/svZX2BMSDEs

    If you are running a hydraulic roller set up, then you really don't need that style of oil, but it won't hurt anything unless you are running fuel injection because the Zinc and Phosphates tend to mess up O2 sensors. If you are running a Mechanical Roller Cam without fuel injection, then I'd probably run the ZZDP enriched oil too.

    Just understand that I'm not a professional engine builder, just a dude building a car just like you; however, I do park at a Holiday Inn every day which is almost as good as sleeping at a Holiday Inn Express every night.

    Good Luck & I Think Your Camshaft Really Will Determine Whether You Need The High Zinc & Phosphate Enriched Oil!

    Steve
    Holiday Inn..... my wife and I died laughing!!!
    If everything seems under control, you’re just not going fast enough....

    Build thread

    MKIV complete kit # 9395 delivered 7/31/18

  9. #9
    Brandon #9196 TexasAviator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by broku518 View Post
    Thanks guys for your inputs. Sadly, I am not sure what parts (people mentioned above) were used in my engine. Feel little stupid
    The main objective was dependability.

    For some reason I was hoping this would be as easy as changing an oil in any daily driver. I will definitely touch base with M. Forte and get the right stuff from him.
    I was advised to do the first change after 500 miles of easy driving.
    No need to feel stupid, this is all about the learning and growing as a builder/owner. Forte probably put you together a roller. That is the better street setup and requires less attention. Ford service bulletins now recommend 5w-30, even for the windsor engines that are in our cars. I am running Amsoil 30 weight and will switch to 5w-30 amsoil synthetic at 500 miles. I have changed my oil twice now with break in oil.

    Also, oil weight is bout riding the film. The passages around the crank and journals are dependent on the pressure of that film. The roller parts of the engine believe it or not ride on the tight tolerance of a built engine. For some more interesting reads and learning go here.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vz2p1SvuYjY Its from the 30s but relevant today.
    Last edited by TexasAviator; 07-20-2018 at 10:29 PM.

  10. #10
    Senior Member jrcuz's Avatar
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    Mike Forte built my Dart 347, I called him to ask what oil he recommended and he said Joe Gibbs ZDDP 10-40
    JR
    Mk4 complete kit #9059 ordered 1/19/17 delivered 3/23/17, 2015 IRS, Fortes/DART347,TKO 600, hyd clutch, P/S, 12.88 wilwood brakes front and rear, heater/defrost and vintage gauges
    First start and go-cart 4/11/18. Taken To Whitby Motorcars Greensboro, N.C. 2/5/21 for body/paint

  11. #11
    Mark Eaton's Avatar
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    Hey Broku,

    I think you also might want to re-torque your header bolts. At least I have a note to myself to do that at 500 miles. There are good "maintanence" build threads out there that I have been meaning to bump but since I haven't even had first start yet I haven't had the need.
    MK4 #9130 , complete kit, arrived 8/10/2017, Street Legal 2/14/2020.
    DART SHP 347, EFI, TKO600, IRS
    http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...n-Build-Thread

  12. #12
    Senior Member broku518's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TexasAviator View Post
    No need to feel stupid, this is all about the learning and growing as a builder/owner. Forte probably put you together a roller. That is the better street setup and requires less attention. Ford service bulletins now recommend 5w-30, even for the windsor engines that are in our cars. I am running Amsoil 30 weight and will switch to 5w-30 amsoil synthetic at 500 miles. I have changed my oil twice now with break in oil.

    Also, oil weight is bout riding the film. The passages around the crank and journals are dependent on the pressure of that film. The roller parts of the engine believe it or not ride on the tight tolerance of a built engine. For some more interesting reads and learning go here.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vz2p1SvuYjY Its from the 30s but relevant today.
    Thanks Aviator.
    I graduated with mechanical degree and knew engines inside out. Later on switched to IT and become, hm, comfortable. It is like relearning everything over again. I like to work on my car, but I just want to drive it everyday

    M. Forte is going to send me the right stuff.
    Life is short, so start living it.
    Build thread: http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...-in-the-garage!
    delivery date: 10/31/2017, first start 2/24/2018, title and registration passed 6/22/2018

  13. #13
    Senior Member broku518's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Eaton View Post
    Hey Broku,

    I think you also might want to re-torque your header bolts. At least I have a note to myself to do that at 500 miles. There are good "maintanence" build threads out there that I have been meaning to bump but since I haven't even had first start yet I haven't had the need.
    Yes, done, they were leaking! I was scared that it was something major, but traced it to valve covers. Uhh, lucky

    Please share some maintenance tips as able...I would rather take to a dealer, but they would just stare it and take selfies
    Life is short, so start living it.
    Build thread: http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...-in-the-garage!
    delivery date: 10/31/2017, first start 2/24/2018, title and registration passed 6/22/2018

  14. #14
    Senior Member broku518's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jrcuz View Post
    Mike Forte built my Dart 347, I called him to ask what oil he recommended and he said Joe Gibbs ZDDP 10-40
    JR
    I believe I am getting same stuff.
    Life is short, so start living it.
    Build thread: http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...-in-the-garage!
    delivery date: 10/31/2017, first start 2/24/2018, title and registration passed 6/22/2018

  15. #15

    Steve >> aka: GoDadGo
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    Shell Rotella Diesel Oils Also Have Increased ZDDP Levels Compared To Regular Motor Oils!

    I used that stuff in my 1980 Z/28 prior to losing it in Hurricane Katrina back in 2005.
    I drove the crap out of that car for 25 years (300,000 Plus Miles) and freshened it from time to time.
    It got reworked around every 100,000 miles with new rings and bearings and it always surprised the heck out of me.
    The block never was bored nor was the crank turned and my worst cylinder only had about .007 - .008 of taper.
    It would be a likely viable option if you are in a pinch to do an oil change.
    God I miss that car because I took Mrs. Go-Dad to her Senior Prom (1982) in that old machine.

    I just don't know what the parts per million are since that was over a decade ago and I'm sure the formula has changed.
    Last edited by GoDadGo; 07-22-2018 at 09:03 AM.

  16. #16
    Seasoned Citizen NAZ's Avatar
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    I used to use Rotella T6 for the higher ZDDP (1400 PPM) but from what I understand Shell changed the formulation a couple years ago to meet new API standards that limit the amount of zinc to 800 PPM. So Rotella has been neutered and no longer an inexpensive high zinc alternative. I still use it in my diesel equipment but no longer in my gas powered vehicles. As I researched an alternative zinc rich oil I learned that it's not just zinc that improves the anti-wear characteristics but a combination of zinc and phosphorous. And that other additives in the blend can have an influence on how affective the anti-wear additives will be. I'm not a tribologist but all the oil companies employ them and I figure they know more than me. I switched from Shell Rotella to Joe Gibbs Driven Racing Oil products based on engine builder recommendations. Only been using their product for a couple years now so I have no long history with them. They do specialize in making oils for flat tappet push rod engines for street to all out endurance race engines. They have several products that contain a blend of ZDDP allegedly in higher concentrations than the latest API specs allow but I've never found the concentration published anywhere. Their products are popular and widely available through performance parts dealers.

    Of course there are other alternatives from boutique oil companies as well as the big dogs in the business. When I was an engineer at Anheuser-Busch I worked closely with Mobil Oil engineers and have a great deal of confidence in their products. They also carry a several oils that contain higher percentages of ZDDP with levels up to 1850 PPM. Do a search for their Mobil 1 product specs and you'll find a table of their products with the zinc and phosphorous content listed. Mobil 1 oils are the gold standard recommended by many OEMs for their performance cars and available worldwide.

  17. #17
    Senior Member johnnybgoode's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by broku518 View Post
    Hello.

    I about to replace my engine oil. Drove ~500 miles and it is time to change the brake in oil.

    What engine oil are you guys using? 5 or 6 quarts?
    I have been told to use 10-40w with zzdp additive.
    I am looking for more tips and hints.

    Car will be driven in south and no racing or any craziness...

    Thanks,
    Broku518
    I've been running Brad Penn 10W/40 for the past several years for it's hi zinc and ZDDP content. Scott

    Brad Penn® Penn Grade 1® High Performance Oils

    Since January 8, 2008, Brad Penn® Penn Grade 1® High Performance Oils have been formulated with a typical 1500 ppm zinc and 1340-1400 ppm phosphorous additive concentrates.

    Penn Grade 1® High Performance Oils are tightly controlled to this level. Each production batch is rigorously monitored by our ISO 9001 certified Quality Control Laboratory to assure compliance to the specification.

    Prior to January 8, 2008, Penn Grade 1® High Performance Oils were blended with zinc levels below 1500 ppm. This was in part dictated by the API service classification SJ which limited the phosphorus level to 1000 PPM max for catalyst compatibility. It was only after a decision was made to depart from the API performance classification that it was possible to increase the phosphorus level to 1340 to 1400 range of the current product. This corresponds to the advertized zinc concentration of 1500 PPM.

    Being the former Kendall Refinery located in Bradford, Pa., we process 100% Pennsylvania Grade crude oil. From the crude oil, we obtain a unique base oil cut which builds a stable oil film that withstands high pressure, high temperature and scuffing associated with race and older, high performance engines. The product provides double protection (layer of lubricant with the zinc and phosphorous protection) to critical engine parts especially for flat tappet and roller cams. In fact, a majority of the cam manufacturers’ tested and now recommend our High Performance Oils before we reformulated the product. One of the reasons the increase in zinc and phosphorous in 2008 was done was to support market trends realizing that the market valued these higher levels. There was not any performance data that directed the increase. Another reason was more historical, since those higher levels had been in use in high performance oils prior to concerns about emission control catalyst life.


    The Brad Penn® Penn Grade 1® Break-In oil is designed specifically with a lower level of ZDDP and other select additive components as a Break-In oil. Since break in is a wearing process high levels of an anti-wear additive may be counterproductive. The type of ZDDP used in this oil is also more suitable for break in applications. This product is highly recommended by a number of engine builders for use when breaking in newly assembled engines to lubricate and assure proper sealing of components.

    The Brad Penn® lubricants are manufactured at the former Kendall Refinery in Bradford, Pennsylvania.

    The refinery is the oldest continuously operated lube refinery in the world (since 1881). The refinery processes only 100% Pennsylvania Grade crude oil through the refinery and is the last truly MADE IN THE USA major oil company.

    The Bradford Refinery was the first in the United States to carry ISO 9002 certification; and the American Refining Group, Inc., refinery, blending and packaging operations currently carry ISO 9001:2008 certification.

    The Penn Grade 1® High Performance Oils are recommended by a majority of Cam Manufacturers such as Crane Cams, Crower Cams, Web Cams, Schneider Cams, Koerner Cams, Howards Cams, Cam Motion and many others.

    Penn Grade 1® High Performance Oils are uniquely formulated for Street Rods, Hot Rods, Muscle Cars, Vintage Cars, Classic Cars, Historic Cars and High Performance Race Engines.

    Penn Grade 1® High Performance Oils are available in Partial Synthetic SAE 0W-30, SAE 10W-30, SAE 10W-40, SAE 15W-40, SAE 20W-50; in addition SAE 30, SAE 40, SAE 50, Nitro 70, Break-In Oil SAE 30 and Assembly Lube.

  18. #18
    Brandon #9196 TexasAviator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by broku518 View Post
    Thanks Aviator.
    I graduated with mechanical degree and knew engines inside out. Later on switched to IT and become, hm, comfortable. It is like relearning everything over again. I like to work on my car, but I just want to drive it everyday

    M. Forte is going to send me the right stuff.
    Good luck, sounds like you are squared away. Go with the oil you like. They are all pretty much awesome these days. I like amsoil cause it supports my friends and Texas suppliers. In the end it really matters little where the oil comes from.

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