Exhaust headers RIGHT NEXT TO the starter motor?

[beeman]

I only have about 1/4" between the starter and my Kooks header.. Is that going to be a problem for the starter?

[Railroad]

I am pretty sure that will rapidly become an issue. Your clearance is so close, it will take great efforts to protect the starter from heat.
Flattening the header tube may not sound like something you want to do, but will probably be a good starting point. Even with a header wrap and starter shield you will need something exotic to protect the starter.
Hate to sound so negative, but spare no cost, method and time in getting it right.
I look forward to posted methods of addressing it. Hopefully someone has an easy out for the fix.

[NAZ]

I would expect that to be a problem and there's not enough room to execute a proper mitigation method. If you had a 1" clearance I'd suggest a combination of header wrap and starter shield (either metal or thermo barrier wrap). I've had to deal with similar tight fit headers and have never been successful trying to shield them from heat sensitive components when there is less than an 1" gap. If this was mine I'd work on moving the header away from the starter (or the starter from the header if you can index it) at least enough that you can use a heat barrier. If that meant modifying the header to gain more clearance or building a new header if that was required. I'm not advocating denting them, crushing them, or in any way restricting the tubing diameter -- that is not the correct way to gain clearance. Yes I've seen the episode of Engine Masters where they took a sledge hammer to headers and I've also seen some of the other hammer mechanic work the Road Kill crew has done and that don't make it right!

[beeman]

No hammer to my precious Kooks!
Well crap. What other header options do I have? Go OEM? What's the best OEM header for the LS3?
Might be selling my Kooks...

[NAZ]

I have seen spacers used between the header and head, both straight and tapered style. Not sure that will work for you but I'll throw it out there. If straight will work you may be able to purchase a pair of flanges to fit your head (the kind you use to build your own headers) and those with the extra gaskets will give you some additional clearance. If tapered will work better and you can't locate an off the shelf part to fit your engine you could have a machine shop mill one out of aluminum (or steel but aluminum is easier to machine so less $$).

[mlkwd1]

Beeman, I was concerned with the same as well as under hood heat in general. I wrapped the headers with DEI titanium heat wrap and it dramatically lowered the under hood temperatures. My headers were ceramic coated and the cats gutted to start but they were still contributing to very high temps.

Michael

[beeman]

Yeah I was wondering if a coating or a wrap would be enough. Not really enough room for a heat shield, it would be touching either the header or the starter and make it worthless...

[Shoeless]

I think you are asking the right questions here, and I'm not far enough along to see if there will be this tight of a fit with my setup. Still waiting over 14 months now for my Mendy transaxle, but am hoping to do a first test fit of the motor soon.

I see you mention you are running an LS3, same for me. I hope I don't have this issue as well.

[tanderson1]

On the factory exhaust i had to hit it with a hammer to make clearance. So i bought the Kooks.

My Kooks exhaust is exactly like yours, maybe even a little closer to the starter. I am still in the go-cart phase but i have not had a problem yet and i have brought the engine up to temp a few times. I expect problems would arise after driving long distances then trying to start the engine again.

My plan is to wrap the headers and put a little bit of the heat deflecting foil on the starter.

[beeman]

Thanks for the information. I'm running a porsche g96 with the Kennedy Engineering adapter, what is your setup?
So what kind of problem will this cause? Poor starter performance when it's hot? Or destroy the starter?

[tanderson1]

I have a G96 as well, I cant remember who makes the adapter but I'm sure most adapters would have to be exactly the same dimensions to make the clutch work properly.

My understanding is that excess heat can cause the starter solenoid to fail. Generally this is a temporary problem, once cool the car would start normally again. The solenoid itself is further away from the exhaust, the part that is close is the motor housing, Its possible it may work fine, but i bought exhaust wrap for the headers just to play it safe.

[Railroad]

You might consider putting the tube in a press. Either flatten the side next to the starter or make the tube oval. You should be able to mark the area to be reshaped prior to removal.
You might be able to make a saddle out of a piece of angle iron and use a flat on the starter side.
Of course you will need to get the work area into the press. A way out there option is, someone with a jaws of life could get to the work area easier.

[Fixit]

I've had similar problems on SBC and BBC's in older Chevelles. The starter will heat-soak and you're stuck until it cools off, and then you're really stuck when it finally fails.
Believe it or not, just a simple heat-shield between the header tube and starter solved all the problems... no wrap, no denting. Used a piece of 1/16" aluminum sheet, and bent/curved it to fit, found some convenient attachment points and it was done.
There's barely an 1/8" "air gap" between the shield and pipe/starter, but no more heat soak problems.

Heat2.jpg Heat.jpg

[beeman]

Thanks John, I think I'll try something like that. I'm thinking that I should try to get the shield midway between the surfaces. I'm also thinking that any coating/insulation/reflective material on the shield would be pretty futile?

[Kennyr]

What about trying a smaller diameter starter like a Tilton and then using heat shielding?

[beeman]

It would just need to tie into the KEP adapter. Here's what I have, I'll call CMS tomorrow and see if there's another option.

[tanderson1]

seems amazon has premade metal heat shields as well as heat blankets for starters
https://www.amazon.ca/s/?ie=UTF8&key...l_73eu4hw26e_e

thats the canadian Amazon site, i bet the USA one has more.

[crash]

I've had similar problems on SBC and BBC's in older Chevelles. The starter will heat-soak and you're stuck until it cools off, and then you're really stuck when it finally fails.
Believe it or not, just a simple heat-shield between the header tube and starter solved all the problems... no wrap, no denting. Used a piece of 1/16" aluminum sheet, and bent/curved it to fit, found some convenient attachment points and it was done.
There's barely an 1/8" "air gap" between the shield and pipe/starter, but no more heat soak problems.

Heat2.jpg Heat.jpg

Use 304 stainless steel. You would not believe the difference in heat rejection between aluminum and stainless. No coatings or additional wraps needed.

[NAZ]

I probably should have explained why I suggested increasing the distance in my previous post. There are two types of heat transfer in your header situation: convective and radiant. Of the two, radiant is transferring the most heat to your starter. Shielding can block (reflect) much of the radiant heat and the material and surface condition used for the shield can make a difference in the reduction. Doubling the distance can also reduce the heat transfer by 75% (inverse square law).

If you choose to wrap the headers (insulating them) you don’t have the room to add enough to be effective. And if the wrap touches the starter you now have a third type of heat transfer – conduction. Conduction is much more effective at transferring heat so you really want to avoid the insulation touching the starter.

So if you read my suggestion above once again, you’ll see that it provides a reduction in heat transfer using a belt and suspenders approach. Good luck.

[Jake From State Farm]

Hi beeman,

In our office the design standard for thermal isolation is a minimum of 100mm (4”) between exhaust components and most other systems on the vehicle. As gas engines can run at a different temperature range than the diesels we design, that may be apples to oranges.

Often times it won’t be the main component that cooks off. It’s the connectors that supply power or fluids to the component in question. Wire shielding may degrade and ultimately lead to a short, connector plugs may soften and let go, plastic fittings may melt, etc.

Thermal wraps, when properly applied, can make a big difference. I used those on motorcycle exhausts in college when I got tired of girls melting their shoes on my chrome. With a thick layer of fiberglass wrap on that same exhaust pipe, you could close your hand around the pipe after an hour long ride and not suffer a burn. If you can create enough space between the pipe and the starter on your GTM, you may want to consider a thermal wrap paired with a quality heat shield. Good luck with your build!

[Fixit]

In our office the design standard for thermal isolation is a minimum of 100mm (4”) between exhaust components and most other systems on the vehicle.

Uh... where's he gonna get 4 INCHES of clearance??
(We're getting into the realm of "designing of the Mars Lander" again... can we keep it to the "K.I.S.S" principle??

[Jake From State Farm]

Uh... where's he gonna get 4 INCHES of clearance??
(We're getting into the realm of "designing of the Mars Lander" again... can we keep it to the "K.I.S.S" principle??

4” is a reference for what’s used on commercial platforms. The simple solution is to reconfigure the starter motor to a more compact or remotely located design - which he’s already doing - and control the residual heat with thermal wrap and/or heat shielding.

[Fixit]

The simple solution is to reconfigure the starter motor to a more compact or remotely located design

Oh yeah... simply reconfigure or redesign....

[derrick]

A simple (yet somewhat rigged fixed) would be to wrap your exhaust or fabricate some thin shield between the exhaust and the starter and then route some cooling duct work to it. It should keep it cool enough in less you idle for long periods of time. In that case you can always attach a small fan. I would go this route before I try to mess with my beautiful kooks exhaust.

[Jake From State Farm]

Oh yeah... simply reconfigure or redesign....

Built, not bought

[beeman]

I tried clocking the starter on the mount, but the next position caused me to hit the oil pan to the point I couldn't even mount it so that's not going to work.
Called CMS, they referred me back to KEP. Very nice guy. Turns out that any LS aftermarket starter should fit, does anyone have a recommendation for something that would give me more clearance?
I have an earlier 996 adapter plate which was designed using the aftermarket IMI starter that I have where they didn't create a large enough pocket for the huge shroud on the nose of the standard Corvette starter, so that unfortunately is not an option. Current adapter plates apparently allow for the C5 oem starter.
So I'm looking for a different aftermarket LS starter with a narrower profile.
Thanks for the advice!
Dave

[kabacj]

I had about 3/4 inch of clearance. Using oem type aluminized and insulated heat shield/ blanket on the starter it was unharmed for years under racing conditions. You don’t need a huge gap.

Another option is cut and reweld the headers at the flange. Kooks might do this for you if you show them your clearance issue.

Just a thought.

John

[jamesfr58]

Like Beeman I am running an LS3 with a G96 transmission with a Kennedy Engineering transition plate, the only real problem so far is the transition plate is larger than the FFR transition plate for the G50 and the catalytic converter pipes using a the FFR supplied pipes hit the transition plate. My starter is about 3/4 inch from the pipe so plan to wrap starter or build ss heat shield to keep heat transfer down.