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Thread: Nagging Oil Leak

  1. #1
    Senior Member RickP's Avatar
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    Nagging Oil Leak

    Noticed a drip at the bottom of the bell housing on a freshly rebuilt 331. The reason for the teardown of the motor in the first place was I simply built too much compression into it and head gaskets were sacrificed.

    I was parking this car on an incline on my Kwik Lift. Probably shouldn't do that for any period of time. Figured oil got past the main seal and was splashing out the bell housing. Been parking the car car flat (after wiping up after each drive) and the oil leak persists.

    Since by this time I probably have the most costly 302 on the planet, I figured I needed to take some action. I used dye trace and a black light in order to determine the source of the leak. All things point to leaking at the rear head gasket on the drivers side. Then it snakes it's way down around the clutch cable housing and finally puddles at the bottom of the bell housing.

    I only know what I know when it comes to engines and that's not much. But I don't think oil can leak from a head gasket. Going on that "assumption", I concentrated first on the valve covers. I replaced the FelPro permadry gaskets for standard FelPro 1/4 cork/lam gaskets mounted on studs. I subsequently chucked any spark plug wire mounting gizmos that were mounted to the VC.


    Next, I dumbed down the Oil pump from a Melling High Pressure pump to a standard volume/standard pressure Melling M68. Still the problem persists, but it's less severe. The valve cover gaskets are dry as a bone and I can't see any obvious leak from the rear of the intake which "appears" to be sealed up pretty good (had a problem with this prior).



    So I am looking for some direction at this point. Any takers? Can oil leak from a head gasket? I don't see how it could unless something is really, really wrong. Oil is not under pressure between the head and block and it's only path is the drain back holes (two I believe). If memory serves me, in order for oil to leak from between the block and head, it would have to traverse 4 big cylinder bores and a multitude of water jackets in order to seep out. It would look more like muck, not clear oil on the outside.


    I am not running studs on my AFR heads and they are torqued to spec. I can't say what head gaskets are on it currently as I did not do the engine rebuild. And one more detail: I have installed an M/E Wagner dual flow PCV valve on the drivers side VC, with an Air/Oil separator piped in between the intake. I am catching way too much oil for my liking but I don't want to change things all at once.


    Oil pressure if 55 PSI at idle and 70ish under load. Any thoughts are much appreciated.


    RickP

  2. #2

    Steve >> aka: GoDadGo
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    Rick,

    We all know that I'm not a Ford Fellow, but could the oil be coming from the Rear China Wall where the intake meets the block?
    Chevy's (S.B. & B.B.) often leak along the rear of the block and sometimes leak in the corner where the head, intake and block all come together.
    I know FE blocks have an oil passage up to the rocker rail, but I didn't think that this was the case for the S.B.F. or even the 385 series B.B.F.
    Again, I'm not a Ford Fellow, but Chevy's leak too.

    Good Luck!


    Steve
    Last edited by GoDadGo; 09-03-2018 at 07:38 PM.

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    I had a similar valve cover leak. On the mechanic who saftied my car’s recommendation I used the right stuff sealant between my silicone permadry gaskets and valve covers, sure enough it seemed to stop. Reason was I have the black rough crinkle finish cast covers, he said they always leak.
    I just had my engine out to put on a new transmission, I had still been getting a really black oil drip on bottom of engine plate/bell housing, while I had it out I pulled everything off, I had never cleaned the block behind the flywheel when I put it all together, there was old sludgy black oil caked on there that had been getting washed off by the leaking oil from the valve covers and probably melting and dripping down when getting hot. I couldn’t figure out why my oil leak was so black when the oils coming off the heads was clean and basically invisible.
    Anyway, I assume if it was just rebuilt the block is squeaky clean but who knows?

  4. #4
    Senior Member RickP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoDadGo View Post
    Rick,

    We all know that I'm not a Ford Fellow, but could the oil be coming from the Rear China Wall where the intake meets the block?
    Chevy's (S.B. & B.B.) often leak along the rear of the block and sometimes leak in the corner where the head, intake and block all come together.
    I know FE blocks have an oil passage up to the rocker rail, but I didn't think that this was the case for the S.B.F. or even the 385 series B.B.F.
    Again, I'm not a Ford Fellow, but Chevy's leak too.

    Good Luck!


    Steve
    I will listen to any advise my "dark side" friend has to offer.

    The intake at this point would be my next thing to focus on as I can't draw any other conclusions as to what the culprit is. The intake is a Weiand Street Warrior dual plane. I'm fairly certain the guy I had do the rebuild would not use the cork end gasket ears. Just RTV. It is an area of concern in that if I stick my finger right at the corner of the intake, head, and block, it comes back ever so slightly damp. The AFR heads hang over the end of the block just a tad and it's like an inverted shelf. I do have plans to lower the thermostat currently installed so I need to drain the coolant from the top end anyway. I might as well dig in and see what's doing with the intake. That is unless anyone else has some ideas.

  5. #5
    Senior Member RickP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Murd View Post
    I had a similar valve cover leak. On the mechanic who saftied my car’s recommendation I used the right stuff sealant between my silicone permadry gaskets and valve covers, sure enough it seemed to stop. Reason was I have the black rough crinkle finish cast covers, he said they always leak.
    I just had my engine out to put on a new transmission, I had still been getting a really black oil drip on bottom of engine plate/bell housing, while I had it out I pulled everything off, I had never cleaned the block behind the flywheel when I put it all together, there was old sludgy black oil caked on there that had been getting washed off by the leaking oil from the valve covers and probably melting and dripping down when getting hot. I couldn’t figure out why my oil leak was so black when the oils coming off the heads was clean and basically invisible.
    Anyway, I assume if it was just rebuilt the block is squeaky clean but who knows?

    Oh how I know. I have spent endless hours at this point wiping up, tracing, etc. When you think you have every drip, streak, splotch of oil gone, get it hot and viola, there it is. Oil present between the bellhousing and block off plate seam will eventually work its way down to the bell housing. The valve covers were the very first thing I looked at. I am pretty certain I have eliminated the possibility they are the source of my leak.

  6. #6
    Senior Member cv2065's Avatar
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    Have you checked the PCV valve for operation and the rubber grommet for splits in the valve cover?
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  7. #7
    bobl's Avatar
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    It is possible for oil to leak from the intake valley past the head gasket at the corners where the gasket meets the china wall. As GoDadGo mentioned it was fairly common on Chevy's, but I've not seen it on a SBF. I always wipe a small layer of rtv on the head gaskets at each corner.

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  8. #8
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    my guess is the intake manifold to block gap, I had problems there.
    55psi at idle, 70 under load sounds kinda high for std oil pump - what wt oil are you running?

  9. #9

    Steve >> aka: GoDadGo
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    Quote Originally Posted by RickP View Post
    It is an area of concern in that if I stick my finger right at the corner of the intake, head, and block, it comes back ever so slightly damp.
    I Think You Found Your Issue!
    Consider pulling the intake & re-sealing it.
    Last edited by GoDadGo; 09-04-2018 at 10:32 AM.

  10. #10
    Senior Member RickP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcondos View Post
    my guess is the intake manifold to block gap, I had problems there.
    55psi at idle, 70 under load sounds kinda high for std oil pump - what wt oil are you running?
    I am running Valvoline conventional 10W-40. I had a High Volume/High Pressure pump in before which ran at 70psi regardless if I was at idle or under load.
    Last edited by RickP; 09-04-2018 at 08:11 PM.

  11. #11
    Senior Member RickP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cv2065 View Post
    Have you checked the PCV valve for operation and the rubber grommet for splits in the valve cover?
    yes sir, PCV valve is operating as expected and seals and valve covers are brand new.

  12. #12
    Senior Member CraigS's Avatar
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    After you pull the intake and clean it all up, drop it back on the engine w/o gaskets and check how it fits. Several years ago a guy found that his intake was sitting on the block which was holding it up just enough that the intake gaskets wouldn't seal. Looking at the gap (hopefully) between the manifold and the block wall will give you an idea of how much sealer to use on the wall. I like UltraGrey because it is a little thicker consistency than blue or black.
    https://www.grainger.com/product/2GX...180906112928:s
    These are the gaskets I always use.
    Felpro
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    Blue silicone w/ an embedded steel layer to help them keep their shape.
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  13. #13
    Senior Member RickP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CraigS View Post
    After you pull the intake and clean it all up, drop it back on the engine w/o gaskets and check how it fits. Several years ago a guy found that his intake was sitting on the block which was holding it up just enough that the intake gaskets wouldn't seal. Looking at the gap (hopefully) between the manifold and the block wall will give you an idea of how much sealer to use on the wall. I like UltraGrey because it is a little thicker consistency than blue or black.
    https://www.grainger.com/product/2GX...180906112928:s
    These are the gaskets I always use.
    Felpro
    1250 S-3 (port size 1.20" x 2.00")
    1262 S-3 (port size 1.28" x 2.10")
    1253 S-2 & 1253 S-3 (SVO/Yates head w/port size 1.35" x1.95)
    Blue silicone w/ an embedded steel layer to help them keep their shape.
    Thank you craigS. Very helpful information. I believe the Felpro 1250 is what I have installed now. Or at least that’s what the head manufacturer suggests to install.

  14. #14

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    It's probably valve cover, but could be intake manifold. But, it's time to stop guessing. Take it to a shop that has a smoke machine. They'll inject a petroleum based smoke into the crank case. Where the smoke leaks out is where your oil is leaking. They will charge you for it, of course. But you'll save time and money in the long run.
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  15. #15
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    Smoke machine is the way to go. Luckily a friend used it on mine to find a leak in the oil pan gasket on my last motor. If it is the intake manifold, like Craig said, 1250s-3 is what I use. I use "the right stuff" for rtv when doing those. Either works fine.

  16. #16
    Senior Member RickP's Avatar
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    Regarding the FelPro 1250 S-3's. Are these sold at Summit

    https://www.summitracing.com/parts/f...yAAEgKdPPD_BwE

    I only ask because Summit list the manufacturer part # as SFL 1250 and there is no such animal on Fel-Pro's website.

  17. #17
    Brandon #9196 TexasAviator's Avatar
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    Here are my build videos of when I used the felpro gaskets mentioned above. Its tight and right, you have to double check the angles and the intake clearance.

    Quote Originally Posted by TexasAviator View Post
    Finally got my manifold back from the machine shop and buttoned up the top end. In these two videos.

    https://youtu.be/TUdE0do1xJU

    https://youtu.be/u_WmnPTnC18

  18. #18
    Senior Member CraigS's Avatar
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    Summit actually does have them but their crappy search function doesn't work well
    https://www.summitracing.com/parts/fel-1250s3
    I found them by adding 's3' to their number for the plain 1250
    jegs has them
    https://www.jegs.com/i/Fel-Pro/375/1...MaAq9fEALw_wcB
    So does Amazon
    FFR MkII, 408W, Tremec TKO 500, 2015 IRS, DA QA1s, Forte front bar, APE hardtop.

  19. #19
    Senior Member RickP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CraigS View Post
    Summit actually does have them but their crappy search function doesn't work well
    https://www.summitracing.com/parts/fel-1250s3
    I found them by adding 's3' to their number for the plain 1250
    jegs has them
    https://www.jegs.com/i/Fel-Pro/375/1...MaAq9fEALw_wcB
    So does Amazon
    It’s the details that matter. Thank you CraigS

  20. #20
    Member JRD56's Avatar
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    It is possible that your PCV is not sized properly for your engine. If the PCV is not properly evacuating enough pressure from the crankcase it can push oil past the seals while the engine is running. Do a google search for ME Wagner Performance, there are a couple of good articles that address this issue. Not saying that is your issue, but it's worth looking at.
    Purchased and un-assembled Mk3 in 2016. 5.0, Aluminum heads, Performer RPM Air gap, Quick Fuel 650 carb, BBK headers T5, 3.55 rear solid axle, Koni Shocks, PS with Hydra-boost. Also own two restored vintage Mustangs, two Model A fords, 1941 Chevy truck and several other hot rods.

  21. #21
    Brandon #9196 TexasAviator's Avatar
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    I had a clog in my PCV when I first installed it. I am using a air oil separator by Steeda and when threading the fittings i went too deep and it clogged. I had oil spitting out of my dipstick and weeping out all my valve cover holes. Fixed the PCV and it went away. Its true that PCV is not taken seriously enough sometimes.

  22. #22
    Senior Member RickP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JRD56 View Post
    It is possible that your PCV is not sized properly for your engine. If the PCV is not properly evacuating enough pressure from the crankcase it can push oil past the seals while the engine is running. Do a google search for ME Wagner Performance, there are a couple of good articles that address this issue. Not saying that is your issue, but it's worth looking at.

    I actually have an M/E Wagner dual PVC valve installed. Currently, I am running it in single orifice mode. I was catching too much oil (high flow) configured this way but I had the valve installed on the passenger side valve cover in the rear. It was suggested I move it to the other side towards the front which I did. Just haven't put enough miles on the car yet to really get a good measuring of how much oil I am catching now. I also went so far as to ensure my VC baffles are spaced according to M/E Wagner's suggestions. I had the valve configured prior in Dual flow mode and the symptoms were the same.

    Once I get the intake resealed, I can dial in the PCV valve. Right now, I want that valve flowing as much as it can.

    I will say this; after switching to a standard flow, standard pressure oil pump and running a thicker weight oil, the leak is noticeably less. A lot less. Makes me think even more it's the intake that's leaking as the one change made was pressure. Only place that pressure would be present is in the intake. At least that's my thinking.

  23. #23
    Senior Member RickP's Avatar
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    I'm also highly considering changing from the Weiand Street Warrior intake to an Edlebrock Air Gap performer. It has a higher pad height and will flow better than the current intake. Anyone have experience with the Air-Gap?

  24. #24
    Senior Member Big Blocker's Avatar
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    I'm placing my bet on the manifold. Small block FORD's are known for this area (the four corners of the manifold to head junction) leaking if not properly set down and torqued in the proper sequence. Ditch the cork gaskets and use RTV (of your choice, personally, I like "The Right Stuff") on the gaskets and the front and rear walls. Use EXTRA in the corners, you can trim off the excess after it has set for a while and hardened for a cleaner look. Torque sequence is absolutely important as is re-torquing several times during the process - don't just torque once or twice, keep doing it until you don't get movement on the bolt. Studs are a better way but sometimes not always accessible during installation.

    Good luck . . .

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