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Thread: 5.2 or 5.4

  1. #1
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    5.2 or 5.4

    Done some searching on the forum and haven’t found anything on point. I’m in the early stages of planning my build and wanted to know if anyone had run a 5.2. Voodoo or 5.4 gt500 engine in their type 65.

    I’m interested in fitment issues etc. thanks for any help y’all can give me.

  2. #2
    Senior Member edwardb's Avatar
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    I'm going to assume you're asking about the Gen 3 Coupe. It's only been out a couple years, so you won't find tons of information out there. The Gen 3 is so different than previous gens I would be careful about drawing any conclusions about fitment for anything other than Gen 3 builds. As for your specific question, Factory Five did the Snap-On build with an Aluminator 52XS. Clearly it fits. Whole series of videos out there on YouTube and maybe even from Factory Five's website. The Voodoo isn't available as a crate engine. Probably you know that. I've seen one build thread where various Voodoo components were purchased and assembled to make one. Or they're available in salvage, but from what I hear crazy expensive. Given the issues Ford has had with that engine (vibration, etc.) I'd personally stay away from it even though I suspect it would fit just fine. Just as much power, or more, is available with other packages, especially when power adders are in the mix. And for way less money.

    Welcome to the forum BTW.
    Build 1: Mk3 Roadster #5125. Sold 11/08/2014. Build 2: Mk4 Roadster #7750. Sold 04/10/2017. Build Thread
    Build 3: Mk4 Roadster 20th Anniversary #8674. Sold 09/07/2020. Build Thread and Video. Build 4: Gen 3 Type 65 Coupe #59. Gen 3 Coyote. Legal 03/04/2020. Build Thread and Video
    Build 5: 35 Hot Rod Truck #138. LS3 and 4L65E auto. Rcvd 01/05/2021. Legal 04/20/2023. Build Thread. Sold 11/9/2023.

  3. #3
    Senior Member q4stix's Avatar
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    The Voodoo is the same exterior dimension as the Coyote so you'll be fine on that. I can't comment on the GT500 5.4.
    Keep in mind you're only going to be able to find salvage Voodoo engines or build one up because Ford doesn't offer them as a crate engine. You'll also need your own controller. The 5.4 is out of production but you can still find crate engines around every once in a while as well as used ones.
    Gen 3 Type 65 Coupe builder

  4. #4
    Senior Member q4stix's Avatar
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    (and it would help if I didn't leave the tab open without refreshing since edwardb already did a great job of answering your question!)
    Gen 3 Type 65 Coupe builder

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    Thanks gents for the input. I’ve been looking at salvage set ups with complete engine, trans, rear and ECMs. I’m under the impression that is easier and more cost efficient than buying separate engine trans and rear end. I know the coyote is a great bang for the buck but I’d also like to do something a little different but I don’t want it to turn into a nightmare either.

  6. #6
    Senior Member edwardb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leepdaddy View Post
    Thanks gents for the input. I’ve been looking at salvage set ups with complete engine, trans, rear and ECMs. I’m under the impression that is easier and more cost efficient than buying separate engine trans and rear end. I know the coyote is a great bang for the buck but I’d also like to do something a little different but I don’t want it to turn into a nightmare either.
    I wouldn't bet on it being easier. Hard to beat the plug and play of the purpose built crate motors and controllers. Plus all new parts and warranties. Cheaper maybe. Cost effective? Depends on your definition and how it all works out.

    FWIW, I know Coyote's get a lot of exposure on the forums. Easy to think "everyone's doing it." I can tell you my experience with my Mk4 Roadster and its Gen 2 Coyote crate, it's not all that common. I go to my share of car shows and it always gets a lot of attention as being very different. People are genuinely surprised and usually really cool with seeing it there. Even at dedicated "Cobra" events (our local club, London, the Factory Five Open House) you'll still be very much in the minority. Plus they run awesome and out of the box have more power than you can practically use on the street. Can you tell I like mine?
    Last edited by edwardb; 05-04-2019 at 05:19 PM.
    Build 1: Mk3 Roadster #5125. Sold 11/08/2014. Build 2: Mk4 Roadster #7750. Sold 04/10/2017. Build Thread
    Build 3: Mk4 Roadster 20th Anniversary #8674. Sold 09/07/2020. Build Thread and Video. Build 4: Gen 3 Type 65 Coupe #59. Gen 3 Coyote. Legal 03/04/2020. Build Thread and Video
    Build 5: 35 Hot Rod Truck #138. LS3 and 4L65E auto. Rcvd 01/05/2021. Legal 04/20/2023. Build Thread. Sold 11/9/2023.

  7. #7
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    After watching the snap on build with the aluminator 5.2 I might be rethinking having that much power. My intention is to have something sexy and unique that I’m proud of and can take the wife out. I certainly don’t need a death trap.

    Has anyone done a carbureted set up on a 351 or 427?
    Last edited by Leepdaddy; 09-27-2018 at 09:51 PM.

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    It's all in the right foot, take it slow and learn to drive the car and it will not be a death trap. More power is FUN if used right!

  9. #9
    Senior Member KDubU's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leepdaddy View Post
    After watching the snap on build with the aluminator 5.2 I might be rethinking having that much power. My intention is to have something sexy and unique that I’m proud of and can take the wife out. I certainly don’t need a death trap.

    Has anyone done a carbureted set up on a 351 or 427?
    Yes. Mike Forte built a nice 351 with a Quickfuel 680 and custom cam for me. Just over 400hp with great torque and sound, a nice lumpy sound. This is plenty of power for a car of this size and weight. She cruised at 80mph at 2300 revs and got approx 21 mpg on the highway. One could stroke it to a 408 as I have read good things if you need/want more power but again not needed based on what you describe what you will be doing. I can say that it was scary fast in 3rd when she went above 3000 revs and I used to race bikes so that is saying something.
    Kyle

    Complete Kit pickup 09/05/2015, 351w, QF680, 3.55, 3-Link, 15" Halibrands with MT's, Painted Viking blue with Wimbledon white stripes on 03/15/2017. Sold in 08/2018 and totally regret it.

  10. #10

    Steve >> aka: GoDadGo
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    Leepdaddy,

    Having driven a MK-3 with a healthy 302 and Scary As Hell Super Charged SVT Cobra powered MK-4 my goal became creating something in between.
    I've got a healthy 383 SBC with a ZF 6-Speed in my "Delayed Build" and my Go-Dad-Go-Kart makes a lot more power than I need.
    You'll have plenty of power to spare with any SBF that has been properly built so you simply have to make a decision.
    With that said I'm sure a 351 SBF should be able to give you years and years of big grins.
    Welcome Aboard & Good Luck On Your Future Build!
    Also, get the manual and read it a few times.

    Steve

    Walk Around Overview With A Nice 1/2 Throttle Tire Spin At The End:
    https://youtu.be/PCngiKoopkA

    Scooting Around The Neighborhood With Mrs. Go-Dad:

    https://youtu.be/yL4UmpII9ek
    Last edited by GoDadGo; 09-29-2018 at 06:28 AM.

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    Are there certain options or configurations that are more desirable from a resale value? I obviously understand there are more expensive options out there and higher quality finishes but I’ve noticed a pretty big disparity in prices people are asking for these cars. Anywhere from 40k to 150k seems common.
    Last edited by Leepdaddy; 09-29-2018 at 08:31 AM.

  12. #12
    Senior Member edwardb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leepdaddy View Post
    Are there certain options or configurations that are more desirable from a resale value? I obviously understand there are more expensive options out there and higher quality finishes but I’ve noticed a pretty big disparity in prices people are asking for these cars. Anywhere from 40k to 150k seems common.
    I'm going to assume you're asking about only Type 65 Coupes? You won't see a Factory Five Coupe in the 150K range unless it's way tricked out and custom. I remember one a couple years ago and it was amazing. But pretty sure they had more than that into it and I doubt sold it even for 150K. The market for a Factory Five in that range will be extremely small. Likely a Coupe you're seeing in that range is a Superformance, and even then right now those are not typically selling for that much. Beautiful cars. But much more like a production DD than a raw race care like the original Coupes. For a Factory Five Coupe, probably the Gen 3 will have better resale than previous ones, but hasn't been around long enough to say. I haven't seen one for sale yet. Absolutely content makes a big difference. What engine is used. New or not. A Ford engine will be seen more favorably in the marketplace than something else. (Sorry Chevy guys) What rear suspension. IRS will always be worth more. What brakes. Etc. Then obviously build quality and finish will have a huge impact as well. I would expect a nicely built and equipped Coupe would sell for more than 40K. A really good one probably quite a bit more. But beyond that it's hard to make generalities. As they say, they're worth what the buyer is willing to pay.

    Maybe doesn't need to be said, but I will anyway. While there are decisions you can make that will affect the resale, don't go into this thinking it's an investment or you'll get your money out. It's a hobby, there's a price to participate, and even in the best deals, your labor will likely be free. Yes, there are pro builders at there who can turn a profit and I respect them for that. But for us average guys that do this for fun, don't expect it.
    Build 1: Mk3 Roadster #5125. Sold 11/08/2014. Build 2: Mk4 Roadster #7750. Sold 04/10/2017. Build Thread
    Build 3: Mk4 Roadster 20th Anniversary #8674. Sold 09/07/2020. Build Thread and Video. Build 4: Gen 3 Type 65 Coupe #59. Gen 3 Coyote. Legal 03/04/2020. Build Thread and Video
    Build 5: 35 Hot Rod Truck #138. LS3 and 4L65E auto. Rcvd 01/05/2021. Legal 04/20/2023. Build Thread. Sold 11/9/2023.

  13. #13

    Steve >> aka: GoDadGo
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    While there are a only a handful of us out there this "Chevy-Dart Guy" agrees with Sir Edwardb regarding the likely resale value of alternate powered Cobra replicas.
    Last edited by GoDadGo; 09-29-2018 at 08:15 PM.

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    Hopefully, my chassis will show up at Gordon’s this week and he’ll get started on build. 5.2 XS with twin turbos - purpose built for track use only. Looked a lot a flat plane crank but without a viable aftermarket controller - very limited what one can do with it. Locking out the VVT is just a waste - what makes a Coyote a coyote....

    Hopefully will have real data of a running car to share Feb/Mar next next.

    Would go crate motor all the way - even vs. getting salvaged one for way less.

  15. #15
    Top Notch Builder P100DHG's Avatar
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    I was very close to purchasing a Voodoo engine. It was on a pallet with the transmission, ECU, instrument cluster and center radio, gas tank, literally everything but the car, even the wireless keys. Fully running on the pallet. The guy had videos of it and wanted $20k. A really good price actually considering everything you would be getting. Problem became how much stuff could one remove before the ECU went into a limp mode. Obviously the ICU had to go and the center radio section would have to go. After speaking to many people who were capable of reprogramming the ECU it became apparent to me that is was a $20,000 risk. The uniqueness of this engine meant something fully custom would need to be programmed and the hours involved would be extensive. There was no doubt it could be done but at what price?. Also there was the fitment of the transmission which was designed for a stock mustang and the shifter placement looked like it could be an issue. All said the uniqueness would be amazing the practicality unrealistic.

    In terms of resale here is a great guide:

    https://bringatrailer.com/search/daytona+replica/

    1 sold on 9/21/2018 for $56,000 with a 427 in Blue. A red one failed to meet the reserve on 8/20/2018 highest bid was $56,000. On 1/16/2018 a Red one failed to meet the reserve and the high bid was $52,525.

    Seeing a Pattern? They are worth somewhere in the mid 50s

    Back 10/27/2017 so a year ago one sold for $72,001.

    I just want to say the production quality of these videos people post on Bring a Trailer is really great.

    Whats untested is a Daytona with a Coyote and I think that makes a big difference and I am not sure which way... Could be worth less because it isn't as "pure" ("though it isn't a real Daytona" as Jeff Miller explained to me). Could be worth more because it's an engine that has variable timing and makes a classic into a modern day icon (I am planning a coyote build). Or it could be worth exactly the same because an engine goes vroom...

  16. #16
    Top Notch Builder P100DHG's Avatar
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    I don't want to call myself frugal as I own two Teslas and a $80k GMC truck but I sleep at night knowing I can part with any of them at Carmax in an instant. What I really actually am having a hard time stomaching lately is shelling out $50,000 to FFR for kit + engine and transmission and a box of parts show up. Knowing I am fully capable of putting it together it doesn't realize its value until it's painted and driving which will take years and that's the point. I love challenging projects I've been working years to perfect my carpentry, plumbing and electrical and got my contractor license this year, though I won't use it professionally it's a nice capstone to my efforts. I need a new challenging project! But even building a $65-$70k car and knowing it's worth $55k I am okay with. It's the knowledge of knowing that for years I have $50k sitting in my garage what isn't worth much of anything until it's completed and don't get me started about the leveraged value of that $50k vs the cash value.... But since I mentioned it, the 50K leveraged in a conventional real estate loan is $250,000. But it's the learning experience and the fun of the build right? I am sure this is TMI but it's an exercise I go through in my head daily waiting to make final payment or come to my senses... or not! LOL

    Good luck with the build!

  17. #17
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    Y’all have no idea how helpful all this information is. For me, planning is the hardest part ( both for the car and how to hide the expenses from my wife).

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    Quote Originally Posted by gnd_hog View Post
    Hopefully, my chassis will show up at Gordon’s this week and he’ll get started on build. 5.2 XS with twin turbos - purpose built for track use only. Looked a lot a flat plane crank but without a viable aftermarket controller - very limited what one can do with it. Locking out the VVT is just a waste - what makes a Coyote a coyote....

    Hopefully will have real data of a running car to share Feb/Mar next next.

    Would go crate motor all the way - even vs. getting salvaged one for way less.
    Any idea what octane it's going to take?

  20. #19
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    I can't imagine that the GT500 5.4 would ever be able to be shoehorned into a Type 65.

    Here's a listing for a voodoo with a T56 as a pallet deal, https://lsswap.parts/product/2017-gt...fY49A0NajANYpo

    But, for less than that kind of $$$, you could build an even stronger regular Coyote, even a supercharged one.

  21. #20
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    Ltngdvr: Is the 5.4 not based on the Coyote? It's hard to image a larger motor as it sits! :]

  22. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joel View Post
    Ltngdvr: Is the 5.4 not based on the Coyote? It's hard to image a larger motor as it sits! :]
    No, the 5.4 GT500 engine has a much taller deck, and wider cylinder heads.

    Coyote deck height is 8.937", 5.4 has a 10.079" deck height.

    Plus, with that big supercharger sitting on top, you'd need a pretty big hood bulge or scoop to get it under the hood on a type 65, if you could get it down into the frame.
    Last edited by Ltngdrvr; 05-04-2019 at 04:34 PM.

  23. #22
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    Oh, thanks for the explanation.

  24. #23
    Saul S's Avatar
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    As others have said a Coyote powered Coupe would make more sense financially, physically both engines are externally identical so fitment would be the same to install a Voodoo. In terms of the "cool" or "unique" visual of running a Voodoo I say to each his own, I own a Roush Supercharged Coyote powered Roadster and also a ProCharged Voodoo powered 2017 GT-350, both get attention anywhere I go but the Roadster by far gets more, but I have to admit the Voodoo with that flat plane crank is pretty unique sounding. Performance wise your best bang for the buck will be the Coyote (if horsepower is your thing) on the dyno the Coyote put out just over 760 horsepower at the crank, the Voodoo is close and within a few horsepower but getting the Coyote there took a bit more work, the GT-350 however easily did that just by adding the Procharger with larger injectors and an updated performance tune.

    I hope this helps

    Saul
    Last edited by Saul S; 05-05-2019 at 01:01 AM.

  25. #24
    Senior Member edwardb's Avatar
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    I think it's clear, but just to be sure, the 5.4 is not based on the Coyote. It's a derivative of the mod motor. It was used in the previous GT500 up until a few years ago with a supercharger. The last couple years went from an iron block to an aluminum block. It is larger than the Coyote, as has been stated. I've seen several Roadster builds with the 5.4, and with some minor modifications it does fit. I'm pretty confident it would not fit in the Gen 3 Coupe however. Perhaps because of height. But mainly I say that because the latest Coupe has large frame rails on each side along the top of the engine compartment. The Coyote just barely fits between. I don't think the 5.4 would. Cool engines in their day but a bit dated and Coyote based engines are probably the better choice now.

    The standard 5.0 Coyote, the 5.2 Voodoo in the current GT-350, and the recently announced 700+ HP 5.2 for the 2020 GT500, are all based on the Coyote with multiple changes and upgrades. The Voodoo with the flat plane crank of course. For the 2020 GT500, has a supercharger and they went back to the cross-plane crank. I've talked to the engineering guys at Ford (nice to live in the area) and was told they would never recommend putting a Voodoo in one of our builds. I was told there are numerous differences with the GT350 Mustang that are specifically to deal with the vibration of that engine, and will never be put in a different car by Ford. Was told in our cars we could expect broken motor mounts, headers, pipes, etc. because of how rigid our chassis and related are. The Gen 3 Coyote I'm using in my Gen 3 Coupe build is regularly dynoing at 500+ HP, right in the range of the Voodoo. And lots more is available. Doesn't have the cool factor I guess. But is a more practical choice and is supported as a crate version by Ford Performance. I was told the Voodoo will never be offered as a crate motor.
    Last edited by edwardb; 05-05-2019 at 04:52 AM.
    Build 1: Mk3 Roadster #5125. Sold 11/08/2014. Build 2: Mk4 Roadster #7750. Sold 04/10/2017. Build Thread
    Build 3: Mk4 Roadster 20th Anniversary #8674. Sold 09/07/2020. Build Thread and Video. Build 4: Gen 3 Type 65 Coupe #59. Gen 3 Coyote. Legal 03/04/2020. Build Thread and Video
    Build 5: 35 Hot Rod Truck #138. LS3 and 4L65E auto. Rcvd 01/05/2021. Legal 04/20/2023. Build Thread. Sold 11/9/2023.

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