First post - thank you and engine choice question

[JohnK]

Hi all,

I'm a new member from the SF bay area. I wanted to start by saying thank you to everyone here for the wealth of information and expertise that's shared every day on this forum, and to apologize in advance for some of the dumb questions I'll be asking. I'm just about ready to order a MkIV kit as a project for me and my 16-year-old son to build together. Having spent a ton of time lurking here and playing with the FFR configurator, I have a good sense for how I want to configure my build. One large open question is engine choice. I've narrowed it down to either a Coyote or a 427W with Holley Sniper EFI. They both have their pros and cons in my mind. One possibly-deciding factor that I can't get a good sense for is the 'smell' of these two engines. I also have a '67 Mustang convertible with 351W, and despite having that carb tuned professionally several times, it still smells like a classic car. Mostly that's OK and expected, but it sometimes becomes tiresome to smell like gas every time I drive the thing, and it's rather offputting to the rest of the family who aren't gearheads, to the point that they don't really like riding in the car. I'm considering doing a Holley Sniper EFI on that car to try to get rid of the smell, and possibly even add catalytic converters.

Now, on the MkIV I'm guessing it would be pretty impractical to add cats, and I'm sure the short exhaust that exits right next to the driver/passenger doesn't help, so I'm trying to get a sense for whether the EFI on the 427W would run clean enough to not be smelly, or whether the Coyote is just that much more efficient that it's worth considering that route for a cleaner-smelliing experience. Thanks again!

-John

[FFinisher]

PM sent.

[Papa]

John,

Welcome to the forum! For what it's worth, my BluePrint 347 with Holley Sniper EFI doesn't smell like gasoline when running. I have no idea what sort of emissions it's producing, but it doesn't smell like my old carbureted small block Chevy did.

Dave

[JohnK]

Thanks Dave! I've read your build thread start to finish and was extremely impressed with not only your craftsmanship but also your willingness to share your learnings and experience. I'm currently working my way through Edwardb's 20th anniv. build thread, and between those two threads I feel like many of my concerns and questions about building one of these kits have been addressed, so thank you (again).

-John

[BB767]

Ditto Papa, my BluePrint 427w with Sniper has no fuel smell.

[robertjamesellis]

John, Welcome to the forum. I can't be much help here as I just dropped in my 427w last weekend. Looking for my first start here soon. Where are you in the bay? I'm in San Ramon and would be happy to chat if you want any advice. There are some things I would have done differently and some not. I purchased the base kit with the plan on upgrading a lot of things which I've done and am so far happy with. Exciting times for you and your son ahead! I can't seem to get my 16 year old son interested at all.

[Straversi]

Make sure you use Teflon lined hose for your flexible fuel line connections. If you use common rubber hose your car will smell like a 57 Chevy, whether it is a Coyote, EFI or Carb motor.
-Steve

[edwardb]

Agree about using the proper fuel line. But as I understand you're asking about exhaust smell, not raw gasoline smell. I can tell you from personal experience that a Coyote without cats does not have a strong exhaust smell. You won't notice it at all. I will also add that in my experience a properly tuned carb while not as clean as a Coyote doesn't have to be as bad as you're describing. Not sure why your pro tunes haven't been more successful. I've had two SBF builds with Quick Fuel carbs, and after being tuned, were completely acceptable. I usually pushed them out of the garage because starting cold with the choke on was a pretty strong smell. But once warm, not an issue. Certainly never had any issues with clothes smelling like exhaust. I don't have any experience with the throttle body EFI systems, but I have to believe they would be as good or better than a properly tuned carb.

I'll spare my usual Coyote pitch other than to say they're awesome in these cars.

[Jdav]

Ditto on the lack of smell with a coyote. The exception being that after sitting in Atlanta traffic I smell like everyone else's exhaust

[BadAsp427]

Welcome to the craziness. Just remember there are no dumb questions left to ask. I all ready used them all up. Have fun!!!!

Check out BluePrint Engines. I chose the 347 because of all their motors it was the one that had the best HP/$$ number. And at 424ft/lb torque. I’ll be just fine.

Enjoy the build.
Carl

[Olli]

Does FFR even sell J -tubes with Cats for the Coyote? Or would you have to get GP Headers (or Gas'n ?) to make some headers with high flow cats inplace of the double collector?

Olli

[Dewey McBride]

Welcome and it'll be nice to have another Cobra in the Bay. I just did a "Snakes to the Lake" run and at a point, I had to pull out due to the exhaust of the car in front of me. Both me an my wife were getting sick. I have a 4.6 DOHC with CATs and Gas'n pipes and it burns clean. I love the cars with a Coyote engine but you can't beat the sound of a 427. Personally I like worry free and reliable.

[FFinisher]

Does FFR even sell J -tubes with Cats for the Coyote? Or would you have to get GP Headers (or Gas'n ?) to make some headers with high flow cats inplace of the double collector?

Olli

I think Forte's parts connection has them.


But The coyote is pretty clean without them.

[JohnK]

Thank you all again for your input!

@robertjamesellis - I'm in Los Gatos, so a little ways away from San Ramon but not too bad. I understand that there's a group of 5-6 FFR owners that meet at the Los Gatos Diner every Saturday morning, so I'll have to stop by and introduce myself soon. Good luck with the first start on your 427.

@edwardb - I agree that there's no good reason why a properly tuned carb should smell that bad, but I'm tired of throwing time and money at it so I think I'm ready to swap to EFI on the Mustang and be done with it. Plus it gives me a chance to learn a few skills like routing and flaring hard fuel lines before I have to do it on the MkIV.

@Badasp427 - I wll prove you wrong... I have a million dumb questions ready to unleash on ya'll. ;-).

It sounds like opinion is pretty evenly split between a good EFI SBF or a Coyote. Not surprising, as I've been wrestling with this choice myself so I can appreciate the benefits of each. It's good to know that both can be clean runners without cats, and I could always add cats later on if still needed.

I think I may be ready to pull the trigger on a kit here shortly. Looking forward to sharing my experiences with everyone and meeting a few of you along the way.

[David Hodgkins]

Hi John,

hope it's not too late for my .02...



I run a 302 with EFI. One of my j-pipe cats from FFR is shown in the pic above. I had them ceramic coated. The exhaust uses BBK shorties and j-pipe cats attached to Gas'n Side Pipes.

My car produces a nice quiet (but not TOO quiet) rumble and I'm a huge fan of the SBF setup in these cars. They are light, and SMALL compared to the big coyote! I mostly like that for the ease of working around the engine, looks, and decent power.

The coyote is a GREAT motor, but like I said, it's BIG. And it's definitely NOT a traditional look under the hood.

That said, my next build (a variation of the type 65 coupe) will have a coyote.

[j.miller]

Coyote.....I have seen them all....Coyote has the most manageable horse power and drivability of them all. Yes, you need a shoehorn to get them in, header bolts are a beeeeotch but you only have to do it once. No touch for 100k and to be honest 98% of are cars don't see the high side of 20k...da Bat

[cv2065]

Not that I'm planning to sell any time soon, I always think about resale and future demand on most any large purchases that I make. I try to make them as 'future proof' as possible, although that's not always an option. From this perspective, I think there are only two engine options. The Coyote and the 427. The Coyote because many are looking for that turn key, modern engine appeal that is fast and reliable, and you get in and run it just like any modern car today. One bump on the key and you are gone and people are willing to pay for the modern conveniences. It also looks cool when you color coordinate the top cover!

On the other hand, there's the "what's in that a 427?" crowd. IMO, the 427 is what aligns with the Cobra mystique. This is the engine that people expect to see in all of its push rod glory. Carb, timing, fuel smell, loud...it's all there and that's what people will also pay a premium for. IMO, the 427 is synonymous with the Cobra, and is what I chose.

Regarding the smell, I had the same thing with the 383 in my old Camaro. Difference here is that there is no cabin to trap the vapors like it did in those cars. So unless you are behind the car at idle, mother nature will air the rest.

[SSNK4US]

More .02
Don’t forget the cam.... more valve overlap etc... (normal motor, not coyote)
The more old school bad *** the motor sounds at idle the more it’s gonna smell like fuel.
But to me that’s all part of the muscle car experience right?

[cgundermann]

Hi John,

hope it's not too late for my .02...



I run a 302 with EFI. One of my j-pipe cats from FFR is shown in the pic above. I had them ceramic coated. The exhaust uses BBK shorties and j-pipe cats attached to Gas'n Side Pipes.

My car produces a nice quiet (but not TOO quiet) rumble and I'm a huge fan of the SBF setup in these cars. They are light, and SMALL compared to the big coyote! I mostly like that for the ease of working around the engine, looks, and decent power.

The coyote is a GREAT motor, but like I said, it's BIG. And it's definitely NOT a traditional look under the hood.

That said, my next build (a variation of the type 65 coupe) will have a coyote.

Agree with David, the SBF sounds so good and FFR started out engineering the 5.0 donor transplant concept - so everything fits easily and so much more room to maneuver in the engine bay. That's the beauty of these cars, simple to exotic components to suite your taste and skills. My wife really wanted a 427, but I had built up a lot of 5.0 Stangs and wanted to build my ultimate pushrod 5.0.

The Coyote is an awesome motor and it will go in my next build for my wife. Ford, Chevy, old school or the latest and greatest Gen 3 Coyote, that's the cool thing about these. You'll never lack for power with whatever you choose...

Chris

[PeteMeindl]

Hi John,
Welcome aboard! I grew up just around the corner from you in los altos, although i live in connecticut now. One thing you might want to check out are the registration requirements in california, if you do plan to register the car. I know in some of the states with tighter regulations, like the ones you and i live in, the engine choice can make a difference in how easy or even how possible this process is. Just worth checking on.
Good luck!
Pete

[BEAR-AvHistory]

[Race Ratz]

When I first dreamed this project 15 years ago, I was hot on stroked SBF, dual quads, no cats, cam idle. I finally purchased a complete car pro built MKIV, no cats, with a Coyote last year. This car runs flawless at any time I use it and how many miles I drive it. There are no exhaust smells ever. 5th gear on highway, no earplugs needed. Yes, I miss cam idle. New cams, tune can fix that, not doing it.
Resale, pushrod vrs Coyote, the new generation only know computer tunes. Coyote installs are growing in poularity and will not hurt resale. Remember, Reliable cruzing without issues keeps wife happy.

[cgundermann]

Best of both worlds - traditional pushrod V8 look, modern fuel injected reliability, consistency, and efficiency. System pictured is compliments of Pro-M and is a complete fuel management system, controlling both fuel and spark via an OEM Ford-based ECU that's OBD II compatible and fully laptop programmable. Maybe another option to consider.

LOVE my Pro-M Racing multi port engine management system...

Chris

[caesarmascetti]

Hi all,

I'm a new member from the SF bay area. I wanted to start by saying thank you to everyone here for the wealth of information and expertise that's shared every day on this forum, and to apologize in advance for some of the dumb questions I'll be asking. I'm just about ready to order a MkIV kit as a project for me and my 16-year-old son to build together. Having spent a ton of time lurking here and playing with the FFR configurator, I have a good sense for how I want to configure my build. One large open question is engine choice. I've narrowed it down to either a Coyote or a 427W with Holley Sniper EFI. They both have their pros and cons in my mind. One possibly-deciding factor that I can't get a good sense for is the 'smell' of these two engines. I also have a '67 Mustang convertible with 351W, and despite having that carb tuned professionally several times, it still smells like a classic car. Mostly that's OK and expected, but it sometimes becomes tiresome to smell like gas every time I drive the thing, and it's rather offputting to the rest of the family who aren't gearheads, to the point that they don't really like riding in the car. I'm considering doing a Holley Sniper EFI on that car to try to get rid of the smell, and possibly even add catalytic converters.

Now, on the MkIV I'm guessing it would be pretty impractical to add cats, and I'm sure the short exhaust that exits right next to the driver/passenger doesn't help, so I'm trying to get a sense for whether the EFI on the 427W would run clean enough to not be smelly, or whether the Coyote is just that much more efficient that it's worth considering that route for a cleaner-smelliing experience. Thanks again!

-John

Hi John, here's my 2 cents for what it's worth. I purchased a factory five roadster MKIV with a 347 stroker using a mass-flo efi system. Long story short that same engine is now running a quick fuel 600sl and an Edelbrock dual plane manifold. It runs so much better than it ever did with efi, and it doesn't smell. I would reach out to guys like Mark Dougherty (Mark the Builder) and ask them how many guys get fed up with the aftermarket efi's and ditch them for carbs.

IMO a 347 stroker with a 600 quickfuel is the perfect combo for these cars, small light engine plenty of power and simple to work on.

PS

I tried going with a Holley Sniper but after three conversations with Holley Tech they would not guarantee me the system would work properly due to the positioning of the O2 sensor

[Dave Howard]

Hi John,

That's got to be a first. Engine comparison based on smell. I've had a Coyote/MkIV for......a while now. Lots of comments already mentioned. The engines you are proposing are totally different in so many ways. If you want a completely worry free power plant that won't let you down or get you into trouble below 4,000revs, go with the Coyote. If you want great power, fuel economy and drive ability at any altitude or type of gas you stick in the tank, go with the Coyote. And to answer your question, over 20,000 miles on mine under a huge array of driving conditions. Everything from Put-put street cruising to 16 hours/day marathon cross country touring to full out drag strips. No gas smell.