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Dyno Day!
Hey Gang,
As some of you may remember, after 1400 miles of gel coat driving I had to build a new motor. Yesterday my extremely talented friends and I took it to the dyno we rented. I am more than pleased with the numbers. It looks like all of my measuring, parts selection, research, and beer drinking paid off!
Here are the specs and where we landed:
302 with Trickflow twisted wedge 170 heads, ford B-303 cam (the "bottleneck in this equation), edelbrock rpm, and a Brawler 600 cfm double pumper. We ended up settling on initial timing of 16* and total timing of 32* all in at 2750 rpm. Also leaned it out a bit by dropping two jet sizes on the primary and secondary bringing me to 64/70 jets. SAE correction was 330whp/323 tq. Standard correction was 338whp/330 tq.
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Senior Member
I just watched your video on youtube, Congrats!
JR
Mk4 complete kit #9059 ordered 1/19/17 delivered 3/23/17, 2015 IRS, Fortes/DART347,TKO 600, hyd clutch, P/S, 12.88 wilwood brakes front and rear, heater/defrost and vintage gauges
First start and go-cart 4/11/18. Taken To Whitby Motorcars Greensboro, N.C. 2/5/21 for body/paint
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Originally Posted by
jrcuz
I just watched your video on youtube, Congrats!
JR
Thanks JR! Super happy with how much power this thing made.
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Senior Member
Not to shabby! More than enough to get you in trouble...
Sounds great,
Chris
Generation 3 Type 65 Daytona Coupe Complete Kit #151885 received May 6, 2022. Gen 3 Coyote, IRS, Tremec TKX, American Powertrain hydraulic throwout bearing & Wilwood brakes.
MK4 Basic Kit #7404, 347 EFI - Pro M Racing ECM, 30# injectors, 70 mm throttle body, 80 mm MAF, Edelbrock Performer aluminum heads & RPM II intake, all new G-Force T5, 3:55 gears, Pro 5.0 shifter, 3-link, carbon fiber dash/custom Speedhut gauges and paint by Da Bat.
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Steve >> aka: GoDadGo
When you are making 1 HP per cubic inch, with a pushrod V-8, you are doing well.
When you are making more than 1 HP per cubic inch, then you are doing Great.
When you are making more than 1 HP per cubic inch at the rear wheels; You Are Kicking Some Asphalt My Friend!
Well Done Mr. Scott, Well Done!
https://youtu.be/t9SVhg6ZENw
Last edited by GoDadGo; 10-06-2018 at 08:37 AM.
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Originally Posted by
GoDadGo
When you are making 1 HP per cubic inch, with a pushrod V-8, you are doing well.
When you are making more than 1 HP per cubic inch, then you are doing
Great.
When you are making more than 1 HP per cubic inch at the rear wheels;
You Are Kicking Some Asphalt My Friend!
Well Done Mr. Scott, Well Done!
https://youtu.be/t9SVhg6ZENw
LOL thanks for the video. The car feels very strong.
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Originally Posted by
cgundermann
Not to shabby! More than enough to get you in trouble...
Sounds great,
Chris
Thanks Chris. You could feel it in your chest, so loud on the dyno.
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Senior Member
Congrats, Scott! A lot of time and energy getting to that point - well done!
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Senior Member
That's GREAT! I love the head bob as your buddy is winding it out. Congratulations, and WELL DONE!
John
MK IV Roadster #8631
Ford 302, Holley Terminator EFI, T5z, 3.55 Rear End, IRS, 17” Halibrand Replicas (9” front, 10.5” rear), Nitto 555 G2’s (275/40ZR17 front, 315/35ZR17 rear), Fast Freddie’s Power Steering, F5 Wilwood Brakes, FFMetal’s Firewall Forward, Forte’s Hydraulic Clutch & Throttle Linkage
https://www.ffcars.com/threads/phile.../#post-4776313
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Originally Posted by
phileas_fogg
That's GREAT! I love the head bob as your buddy is winding it out. Congratulations, and WELL DONE!
John
lol I know. After dropping a couple of jet sizes, he was happy with the AFR
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Congrats Scott. Well done!
MKIV complete kit w/powder coating and cut outs, serial #9189 delivered 10/10/17, first start - 10/5/18, legal - 10/08/20. Blueprint 306 w/Holley Sniper EFI, TKO 600, power steering, Breeze fan shroud, trunk cubby, & engine compartment battery kit, CNC brake reservoirs, RT turn signal & gas pedal, mechanical throttle linkage, METCO safety loop, GASN side pipes, drop trunk, dual chrome roll bars, vintage gauges, glove box, custom center console, cup holders, and speakers.
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Originally Posted by
RJD
Congrats Scott. Well done!
Thanks man! And congrats on your first start!!! We will be cruising in no time.
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Senior Member
Whooohooo! I loves me some dynos.
Dyno.jpg
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Originally Posted by
Avalanche325
Whooohooo! I loves me some dynos.
Dyno.jpg
I could fiddle with engines on a dyno everyday and be quite happy.
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Your dyno results look really good, and seem to fall in line with an accurate dyno. Just for grins I put your engine specs in a modeling program I use. I have an engine dyno and built many engines which I run through this program to compare real world results, so I have a good data base of engine builds to compare. Anyway, it projected your engine at 335 wheel HP and 329 ft. lbs. of torque, which I find pretty amazing to be that close to your actual results. FYI, it showed 394 flywheel HP, 387 ft. lbs of torque, using STD correction factor. Being a data nut, I found this pretty interesting.
Bob
Mk IV Roadster, 347/516 HP, 8 stack injection, Holley HP ECU, Astro Performance T5, 3-Link 4.10 gears, A/C, PS, PB Purchased 08/2015, Graduated 02/2017
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Post Thanks / Like - 0 Thanks, 1 Likes
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Originally Posted by
bobl
Your dyno results look really good, and seem to fall in line with an accurate dyno. Just for grins I put your engine specs in a modeling program I use. I have an engine dyno and built many engines which I run through this program to compare real world results, so I have a good data base of engine builds to compare. Anyway, it projected your engine at 335 wheel HP and 329 ft. lbs. of torque, which I find pretty amazing to be that close to your actual results. FYI, it showed 394 flywheel HP, 387 ft. lbs of torque, using STD correction factor. Being a data nut, I found this pretty interesting.
Bob
Bob,
This is wildly interesting. I’m actually surprised it made this much power. I was expecting something closer to 300 wheel. In your experience, what type of drivetrain loss do these cars see? I have a t5 to a solid rear with 3.31s.
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Senior Member
That's really good numbers Scott. Congrats.
CVOBill
MK2 #???? Delivered 11/2002, Finished and Titled 6/2003 5.0, T-5, 4-Link, Sold 3/2005
Hot Rod #304 purchased 5/28/2017 from original owner Unassembled . Titled and plated 8/24/2017 Coyote,
TKO, 3-Link, Heat, A/C, Electric Power Steering, Convertible top
MK4 #9524 Picked up 1/18/19 306 Blueprint, T-5, 4-Link, Gas-N Pipes, Heater
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Originally Posted by
CVOBill
That's really good numbers Scott. Congrats.
Thanks, Bill!
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Brandon #9196
Great work my friend. Sorry you had to rebuild. I didnt go digging but what caused the need for the rebuild? I handbuilt my engine and plan on getting on a chassis dyno as soon as possible. I still have a lot to do to get my dash together. Its almost there. I cant wait but life is really getting in the way at the moment. Awesome and exciting results.
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Originally Posted by
scottiec
Bob,
This is wildly interesting. I’m actually surprised it made this much power. I was expecting something closer to 300 wheel. In your experience, what type of drivetrain loss do these cars see? I have a t5 to a solid rear with 3.31s.
I’ve not had the opportunity to dyno an engine, put it in the car and then do a chassis dyno. So drive train loss is pretty elusive. The fact you had your correction data and engine spec is what intrigued me to take a look. Most chassis dyno runs don’t give you that info and their results vary a lot depending on brand of dyno, etc. Engine dyno’s are pretty well repeatable if calibrated correctly and using a good weather station. I modeled your engine to come up with flywheel HP estimates, so I feel pretty comfortable with that figure. The program calculates wheel HP estimates off of those numbers using an internal formula. The fact they agreed with your actual results lends credence to its accuracy. In this case it works out to about 15% drive train loss.
Bob
Mk IV Roadster, 347/516 HP, 8 stack injection, Holley HP ECU, Astro Performance T5, 3-Link 4.10 gears, A/C, PS, PB Purchased 08/2015, Graduated 02/2017
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Originally Posted by
TexasAviator
Great work my friend. Sorry you had to rebuild. I didnt go digging but what caused the need for the rebuild? I handbuilt my engine and plan on getting on a chassis dyno as soon as possible. I still have a lot to do to get my dash together. Its almost there. I cant wait but life is really getting in the way at the moment. Awesome and exciting results.
Thanks! I had pulled a 47,000 mile explorer motor from the junkyard. It kept pressurizing the cooling system with exhaust gases. After doing head gaskets (and of course bringing the heads to the machine shop) it was still doing the same thing. I am led to believe there is a crack in the block, or the deck of the block is warped (probably unlikely). I will eventually bring it to the machine shop to get tested and find out what it really was.
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Originally Posted by
bobl
I’ve not had the opportunity to dyno an engine, put it in the car and then do a chassis dyno. So drive train loss is pretty elusive. The fact you had your correction data and engine spec is what intrigued me to take a look. Most chassis dyno runs don’t give you that info and their results vary a lot depending on brand of dyno, etc. Engine dyno’s are pretty well repeatable if calibrated correctly and using a good weather station. I modeled your engine to come up with flywheel HP estimates, so I feel pretty comfortable with that figure. The program calculates wheel HP estimates off of those numbers using an internal formula. The fact they agreed with your actual results lends credence to its accuracy. In this case it works out to about 15% drive train loss.
Bob
That is really impressive. Especially because you didn't get all the details regarding combustion chamber size, quench, etc. As far as drivetrain loss, I would think that these cars would have a little less than 15%, but that is not based on anything scientific.
Also, I don't understand why drivetrain loss is done as a percentage. It take a certain amount of ponies to spin the trans, diff, etc. Wouldn't a drive train loss just be constant number for a certain type of set up? Just thinking out loud.
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Originally Posted by
scottiec
That is really impressive. Especially because you didn't get all the details regarding combustion chamber size, quench, etc. As far as drivetrain loss, I would think that these cars would have a little less than 15%, but that is not based on anything scientific.
Also, I don't understand why drivetrain loss is done as a percentage. It take a certain amount of ponies to spin the trans, diff, etc. Wouldn't a drive train loss just be constant number for a certain type of set up? Just thinking out loud.
That's been debated a lot. My personal explanation is this: The main loss is gear drag going through the trans and differential. As the engine power and rpm increases, the friction loss increases, since the dyno is trying to resist acceleration. Most chassis dynos are inertia that measure acceleration rate, so it's a lot harder to compare. Let's say you've got the car on jack stands with it idling in high gear. There is no load and it is taking very little HP to turn the wheels. If the loss was constant the engine would die since it doesn't produce enough power at idle. Here’s a bit different example. I build high performance boat engines and my dyno works as a propshaft dyno as well as engine dyno. A drive on a boat has 2 gear sets, each at 90 degrees. I’ve done quite a few tests where I dynod the engine, put it in the boat and dynod it again. I’ve done 300 hp engines up to 1000 hp engines. The result is always right at 10% loss ,with mechanical connections using the same dyno so it’s a direct comparison with gear loss being the only variable. Hope this helps some.
Bob
Last edited by bobl; 10-09-2018 at 01:22 PM.
Mk IV Roadster, 347/516 HP, 8 stack injection, Holley HP ECU, Astro Performance T5, 3-Link 4.10 gears, A/C, PS, PB Purchased 08/2015, Graduated 02/2017
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An additional thought is that there are also losses from the tires and slippage on the chassis dyno. That would be the reason that hub dynos always produce a higher Hp than a wheel dyno, all else being equal. The tire losses are a big variable from car to car or dyno to dyno.
Mk IV Roadster, 347/516 HP, 8 stack injection, Holley HP ECU, Astro Performance T5, 3-Link 4.10 gears, A/C, PS, PB Purchased 08/2015, Graduated 02/2017
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Originally Posted by
bobl
That's been debated a lot. My personal explanation is this: The main loss is gear drag going through the trans and differential. As the engine power and rpm increases, the friction loss increases, since the dyno is trying to resist acceleration. Most chassis dynos are inertia that measure acceleration rate, so it's a lot harder to compare. Let's say you've got the car on jack stands with it idling in high gear. There is no load and it is taking very little HP to turn the wheels. If the loss was constant the engine would die since it doesn't produce enough power at idle. Here’s a bit different example. I build high performance boat engines and my dyno works as a propshaft dyno as well as engine dyno. A drive on a boat has 2 gear sets, each at 90 degrees. I’ve done quite a few tests where I dynod the engine, put it in the boat and dynod it again. I’ve done 300 hp engines up to 1000 hp engines. The result is always right at 10% loss ,with mechanical connections using the same dyno so it’s a direct comparison with gear loss being the only variable. Hope this helps some.
Bob
This makes a lot of sense. I didn't think about the load from the dyno itself.