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Thread: Installing Nitros in Dart carb engine

  1. #1
    Senior Member broku518's Avatar
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    Installing Nitros in Dart carb engine

    Hello,

    With holidays coming I am starting to think about some ideas. I am looking for a HP/ torque boost. Not really sure what for each of these the pros and cons are. Or how to decide...

    Hoping they are complete kits, and can be installed on a weekend without crazy modifications.
    Please let me know what your thoughts.

    I have a 347 dart shp block, carburetor, tko600.
    Last edited by broku518; Yesterday at 01:54 PM.
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  2. #2
    Senior Member Just puttering's Avatar
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    What compression ratio do you have?

    Might look here for ideas https://vortechsuperchargers.com
    Mk3.1 347 AFR 205cc Race Heads EFI siemens deca 60lb injectors MSD 6AL ignition Vortech V-3 3 Link PS/PB

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    Senior Member broku518's Avatar
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    I was chatting with M. Forte and going with a supercharger it wouldn't gain as much. My engine already makes 410, so the gain might be around 60 or so HP. I don't think spending 3K to gain 60Hp is a good deal.
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    Senior Member broku518's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Just puttering View Post
    What compression ratio do you have?

    Might look here for ideas https://vortechsuperchargers.com
    I am around 10.5:1
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  5. #5
    Steve >> aka: GoDadGo GoDadGo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by broku518 View Post
    I am around 10.5:1
    Broku,

    That ratio is way to high to add any amount of boost to an old school push rod style motor.

    VVT motors like the Coyote can be boosted, but those engines are dynamic, computer controlled, not static.

    You really need to be down at or around 9.0-9.5 at the very most, with 8.5-9.0 being a lot better for any small super charger.

    Also, how much power do you need because mine spins the tires in 1st, 2nd & 3rd and I'm probably only 15-30 HP over what you are kicking?

    Steve
    Last edited by GoDadGo; 11-08-2018 at 01:48 PM.

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    Senior Member broku518's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoDadGo View Post
    Broku,

    That ratio is way to high to add any amount of boost to an old school push rod style motor.

    VVT motors like the Coyote can be boosted, but those engines are dynamic, computer controlled, not static.

    You really need to be down at or around 9.0-9.5 at the very most, with 8.5-9.0 being a lot better for any small super charger.

    Also, how much power do you need because mine spins the tires in 1st, 2nd & 3rd and I'm probably only 15-30 HP over what you are kicking?

    Steve
    Thanks Steve. Honestly, I miss the build stage, so when I was making my Christmas list I thought about adding some HP. No particular reason, just wanted to see where I can take it and what would make sense. After talking with Mike F., told me that with my setup I may likely gain ~60HP. So to spend 3K for this doesn't really make sense. (with minimal amount of work and modifications)

    Plus, my next door neighbor isn't helping either. His Cobra is pushing 630HP, but big block.

    SO having said that - I will likely put 3K in my kids college funds and watch it grow...
    Last edited by broku518; 11-08-2018 at 03:26 PM.
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    Use nitrous oxide if you want more power. It’s the normal power adder for higher compression motors. 10:1 is the max compression I would run with any boost in a motor like ours, and I wouldn’t run much more then 5-6 psi of boost at that 10:1 ratio. With a plate nitrous system and a nitrous controller you can pick up a easy 100-150+ whp all day. You just need to run race fuel when you want to use it. Total cost for this this type of system is in the $1,300 range plus the cost of a tune. Just make sure you go name brand as there is a big quality difference. I’m partial to nitrous express as I’ve had very good success with them.
    Mk4, Moser M88 rear end, Eaton truetrak, Craft Racing 461 Windsor, MMR pro trans, Glennís 1,000 hp cobra fuel system and lots of other parts.

  8. #8
    Senior Member broku518's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GFX2043mtu View Post
    Use nitrous oxide if you want more power. It’s the normal power adder for higher compression motors. 10:1 is the max compression I would run with any boost in a motor like ours, and I wouldn’t run much more then 5-6 psi of boost at that 10:1 ratio. With a plate nitrous system and a nitrous controller you can pick up a easy 100-150+ whp all day. You just need to run race fuel when you want to use it. Total cost for this this type of system is in the $1,300 range plus the cost of a tune. Just make sure you go name brand as there is a big quality difference. I’m partial to nitrous express as I’ve had very good success with them.
    ok, sounds good. Can you share some links, pics?
    I am open to use a boost on occasions. Also, what is the downside of doing this, if any?
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    There are many magazines and vendors that published articles on this. The best bang for your buck on a carb or carb style FI system is to use a plate system as it’s very easy to install. Depending on your set up I would run a kit like this https://www.summitracing.com/parts/nex-30040-10/ it’s for a square bore manifold and carbureted so you can tap into your carb feed line for fuel. A good controller is https://www.summitracing.com/parts/nex-16008/ I’ve use it before and it works great. The down side is mailnly cost of bottle fills. 10 lbs around me runs $45 and depending on the hp increase can last for a good 10 1/4 mi sprints. Obviously the more hp the shorter it lasts. Just make sure your motor can take the hp increase you want and get it tuned for it and you won’t hurt the motor. The catch is once you get 100 hp then you’ll want 150 hp and it doesn’t stop and that is where guys get in trouble. Pick a reasonable hp increase for how the motor is built and stick with it. Use it only above 3k rpm and set the controller to shut the system down a couple hundred rpm before red line.
    Last edited by GFX2043mtu; 11-09-2018 at 05:31 PM.
    Mk4, Moser M88 rear end, Eaton truetrak, Craft Racing 461 Windsor, MMR pro trans, Glennís 1,000 hp cobra fuel system and lots of other parts.

  10. #10
    Senior Member broku518's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GFX2043mtu View Post
    There are many magazines and vendors that published articles on this. The best bang for your buck on a carb or carb style FI system is to use a plate system as it’s very easy to install. Depending on your set up I would run a kit like this https://www.summitracing.com/parts/nex-30040-10/ it’s for a square bore manifold and carbureted so you can tap into your carb feed line for fuel. A good controller is https://www.summitracing.com/parts/nex-16008/ I’ve use it before and it works great. The down side is mailnly cost of bottle fills. 10 lbs around me runs $45 and depending on the hp increase can last for a good 10 1/4 mi sprints. Obviously the more hp the shorter it lasts. Just make sure your motor can take the hp increase you want and get it tuned for it and you won’t hurt the motor. The catch is once you get 100 hp then you’ll want 150 hp and it doesn’t stop and that is where guys get in trouble. Pick a reasonable hp increase for how the motor is built and stick with it. Use it only above 3k rpm and set the controller to shut the system down a couple hundred rpm before red line.
    Thanks for the info. I agree with you 100% - the once you get to certain level, you may want more. I checked with my engine builder (Mike F.) and I should be fine taking it up 200HP more. So this will be my limit. I am thinking about getting a kit with multiple stages, that way I can adjust and test in 50HP increments, for example.

    I may need to get a dedicated fuel pump for this kit.

    About the controller, is it really needed? I mean the Nos is a gas pedal activated. I guess, in case I keep the pedal pressed?
    I might need to set it from 3k rpm, I guess.

    Thanks,
    Broku
    Last edited by broku518; Yesterday at 01:56 PM.
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  11. #11
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    I have a window switch on my plate nitrous system. The throttle has to be at WOT and the nitrous and gasoline solenoids open at 2800 rpm and shut off at 5800 rpm. The rpm can be controlled by rpm chips, switchable by hand. I also have a ignition retard on the distributor. It has a dial that you can set the amount of retard desired while the nitrous is activated. I am running 50 hp jets on a 351W with Holley Projection. I often wish I had a remote bottle valve. When the nitrous hits it is strong. They introduced a progressive nitrous control, which I think would be better on the street. You can have the power without being at WOT. Don't even think about using button activation with a straight shift.
    I do not know about the carb fuel pump being sufficient for nitrous. The instructions should give you the pressure level for the fuel.
    20th Anniversary Mk IV, A50XS Coyote, TKO 600, Trunk Drop Box, Trunk Battery Box, Cubby Hole, Seat Heaters, Radiator hanger and shroud.

  12. #12
    Senior Member broku518's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Railroad View Post
    I have a window switch on my plate nitrous system. The throttle has to be at WOT and the nitrous and gasoline solenoids open at 2800 rpm and shut off at 5800 rpm. The rpm can be controlled by rpm chips, switchable by hand. I also have a ignition retard on the distributor. It has a dial that you can set the amount of retard desired while the nitrous is activated. I am running 50 hp jets on a 351W with Holley Projection. I often wish I had a remote bottle valve. When the nitrous hits it is strong. They introduced a progressive nitrous control, which I think would be better on the street. You can have the power without being at WOT. Don't even think about using button activation with a straight shift.
    I do not know about the carb fuel pump being sufficient for nitrous. The instructions should give you the pressure level for the fuel.
    Thanks for your feedback. Sorry, what does WOT means? Is it wide open throttle?
    Yes, I am going to install an additional electric pump to feed the kit.

    I wish I can just see it somewhere near me. I am in Jupiter FL.
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  13. #13
    Senior Member BEAR-AvHistory's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by broku518 View Post
    Thanks for your feedback. Sorry, what does WOT means? Is it wide open throttle?
    Yes, I am going to install an additional electric pump to feed the kit.

    I wish I can just see it somewhere near me. I am in Jupiter FL.
    Yes

    Wide Open Throttle

    Based on your questions I would think you would want a pro installed system instead of a DIY. N2O can add a lot of quick power relatively inexpensively but a mistake in choosing components or installing them can/will trash the engine.
    Last edited by BEAR-AvHistory; Yesterday at 03:42 PM.
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  14. #14
    Senior Member broku518's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BEAR-AvHistory View Post
    Yes

    Wide Open Throttle

    Based on your questions I would think you would want a pro installed system instead of a DIY. N2O can add a lot of quick power relatively inexpensively but a mistake in choosing components or installing them can/will trash the engine.
    I agree with you. This is confusing to me, as I am not familiar with this at all. I am learning, but will gladly take it to a shop locally
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    Seasoned Citizen NAZ's Avatar
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    Funny, I just took a break from installing a Nitrous Express system on my race car. It may seem intimidating but start by getting a good book on nitrous oxide systems and read everything you can get your hands on to get up to speed. Even if you take your car to a shop how will you know if they installed it correctly? How will you know how to tune it? How will you know the risks and how to avoid engine damage?

    Have fun!

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    If you try to run a 200 hp shot straight you will spin the tires. It comes on to strong for the tires to hold it in the lower gears. That is what the controller I posted is for. This is where it’s a bit tricky as the control monitors several things and is adjustable. What it monitors in particular is RPM and if the wide open throttle switch is on or off. This is mission critical because if you start spraying nitrous to soon a back fire can occur, and to late you can over rev and that is not good. The controller allows a programmed window of use. So you tell it not to turn on the fun till 3-3.5k rpm and cut it off ~200 rpm before red line. The cool part about the controller is you can slowly lead in the spray. Basically what this means is that it pulses the silinoids say 20% on then 40% on and so forth till they just stay open. You tell it how long it takes to ramp the power in so the car hooks up. This prevents overwhelming the tires with power to quickly so you can make that 200hp stick. It has the added bonus that it knows when your at wot and in the correct operating conditions to use it. Thus it makes it controllable and safe on the motor. This is why most of the big guys now are running a big single stage shots 600+ hp and use a controller to feed the power in to make the tires hook up in stead of several stages to get to the same power level. It’s more controllable and it’s safe. I also encourage you get a tune and talk to a reputable shop to install the system if your not comfortable with the install. It’s not rocket science but as with any thing you need to watch what your doing.
    Last edited by GFX2043mtu; Yesterday at 10:52 PM.
    Mk4, Moser M88 rear end, Eaton truetrak, Craft Racing 461 Windsor, MMR pro trans, Glennís 1,000 hp cobra fuel system and lots of other parts.

  17. #17
    Senior Member broku518's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GFX2043mtu View Post
    If you try to run a 200 hp shot straight you will spin the tires. It comes on to strong for the tires to hold it in the lower gears. That is what the controller I posted is for. This is where it’s a bit tricky as the control monitors several things and is adjustable. What it monitors in particular is RPM and if the wide open throttle switch is on or off. This is mission critical because if you start spraying nitrous to soon a back fire can occur, and to late you can over rev and that is not good. The controller allows a programmed window of use. So you tell it not to turn on the fun till 3-3.5k rpm and cut it off ~200 rpm before red line. The cool part about the controller is you can slowly lead in the spray. Basically what this means is that it pulses the silinoids say 20% on then 40% on and so forth till they just stay open. You tell it how long it takes to ramp the power in so the car hooks up. This prevents overwhelming the tires with power to quickly so you can make that 200hp stick. It has the added bonus that it knows when your at wot and in the correct operating conditions to use it. Thus it makes it controllable and safe on the motor. This is why most of the big guys now are running a big single stage shots 600+ hp and use a controller to feed the power in to make the tires hook up in stead of several stages to get to the same power level. It’s more controllable and it’s safe. I also encourage you get a tune and talk to a reputable shop to install the system if your not comfortable with the install. It’s not rocket science but as with any thing you need to watch what your doing.
    Thank you for this info. Now I have something to think about, plus do my own research. I definitely like the controller now I did some searching around my town and see couple shops that are specializing in Nos installs.
    And agreed, there is more than just the Nos kit, the whole setup has to be reviewed for safety and if it even make sense do it. It is a bit misleading reading the Nos kits advertisement 'easy to install' one has to review and understand the whole picture how this will affect other parts of the vehicle.
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  18. #18
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    Absolutely, making power is one thing getting it to the ground and through the rest of the drive train is another. Things have one a long ways and we are spoiled as there are so many products available it almost becomes overwhelming.
    Mk4, Moser M88 rear end, Eaton truetrak, Craft Racing 461 Windsor, MMR pro trans, Glennís 1,000 hp cobra fuel system and lots of other parts.

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