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Thread: Headlight Aim

  1. #1
    Senior Member phileas_fogg's Avatar
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    Headlight Aim

    The other night I tried aiming my headlights so they point in accordance with the manual, and similar to this article http://www.danielsternlighting.com/tech/aim/aim.html.

    However, to get each light to point far enough to the left I have to run the adjustment screw so far out that the trim ring no longer fits over the lip on the bucket. Also, the right side headlight wants to point too high; again, if I bring it down to match the diagram in the manual the trim ring won't fit.

    Anybody seen this, and has anybody got any suggestions on how to fix?

    Thanks,


    John
    MK IV Roadster #8631
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    https://www.ffcars.com/threads/phile.../#post-4776313

  2. #2
    #9160 BB767's Avatar
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    Yes, mine are all wonky as well. The body is perfectly aligned (professionally installed), the buckets are installed as directed, but to aim the lights correctly there is almost 1 inch of gap on one side of the bezel. I removed and slightly modified the bucket mounting screws but this did not help much. I ended up making some "trim" out of rubber fuel line to help hide the uneven gaps but still am not happy. This will be a future project, I have some old Triumph buckets that I will try in the future to see if it helps. This has to be one of the worst problems I have had with the kit, which is probably a good thing but it is an annoying one.

    IMG_0546.JPGIMG_0544.JPGIMG_0639.jpgIMG_0637.JPG

    (added) My problem is exactly as you described, right one to high, both of them to far right, leading me to believe this is a design or part problem. I certainly hope it is a defect in the light bucket and not the body.
    Last edited by BB767; 11-24-2018 at 11:28 AM.
    MK4 - complete kit - Blueprint 427W - Holly Sniper EFI - TKO 600 .64 - 3.55 3 link - 17" Halibrands

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  4. #3
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    I just checked my body. Note: it isn't mounted or aligned or otherwise finished, just resting on a body buck. Please take this into consideration.

    With that info a long straight edge shows that the horizontal line from one headlight flange to the other is not straight. The line from the passenger side to the driver side shows a gap of about 1/2", i.e. the driver side headlight flange is behind the line to the rear of the car. Placing the straight edge on the driver side the passenger flange is about 1/8" forward of the line on the inside, it's probably good at the outside.

    The vertical alignment is pretty good showing a difference of about 1/2 degree using a digital protractor.

    I'd think that pulling the headlights and buckets individual bodies could be checked. Might be worth it to determine where the misalignment comes from.

    edit / add. The headlight buckets would be easy to check on a flat surface and a caliper. I'd bet that the problem is not the buckets, there really isn't a lot to go wrong with these.

    Jim
    Last edited by Jim1855; 11-24-2018 at 02:45 PM.

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    Senior Member AC Bill's Avatar
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    Sounds like the body at the headlight area, is the root of the problem.
    I've never heard of a builder having an issue, where there is a inch gap..That's ridiculous.

  7. #5
    Senior Member karlos's Avatar
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    Maybe it was intentional to try to get the alignment to come in, but definitely not assembled correctly. The screw inside the red circle appears to be one that attaches the headlight bucket to the fiberglass body. It should be run all the way in so that the bucket sits flat and is compressed against the gasket. Not sure what the source of the problem is, but my guess would be the attachment of the retaining ring to the headlight itself. The lower right part of the second photo shows the typical trouble spot: the pot metal clips that attach the ring to the headlight almost always strip or bend/break so that the headlight isn't held securely to the retainer. Third photo shows one possible fix: cut a strip to backup/reinforce the existing clip. A Simpson "strong-tie" (TP45, available at Home Depot) works well and the holes are already pre-drilled. Can see it if you look closely at the second photo. Not my idea...saw it posted here previously: https://www.ffcars.com/forums/17-fac...ht-rattle.html





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  9. #6
    Senior Member tonywy's Avatar
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    I had the same issue as phileas_fogg couldn't figure it out at first. So I switched out the Wagner brand headlamps out for Hella. Huge difference but, still not correct. I then found on eBay the old Hoppy headlight aimers, I think I paid a hundred or so dollars for the set up. Set the floor slope for my garage floor as per the instructions, aimed them up and now they are perfect.

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  11. #7
    Senior Member rich grsc's Avatar
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    I'll bet money the headlight buckets are not installed correctly to the body. There is no way properly adjusted lights will set that crooked to the body.

  12. #8
    Senior Member CraigS's Avatar
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    I am concerned by what JIM1855 found but I also wonder about Rich's thought that the buckets are not correct to the body. Not having these in front of me, my first Q is does the FFR manual tell you how to orient the buckets as you mount them to the body? As I remember these buckets are not a great piece of equipment. There is a 3 point mount built in. One stationary and the other two are the adjustment screws. Is there any possibility that the bulb is not fitting correctly at the stationary mount? IE, if the bulb were too far forward at the stationary point, then you would have to really crank those screws out a long way to overcome it. Also, if the stationary mount, and hence the entire bucket, is not clocked correctly looking from the front maybe that could cause a problem. If you think a second set of eyes might help, let's get together next week.
    BTW, have you driven the car as is? I am thinking that not quite enough left, could actually make oncoming drivers happy. Doing the measuring at 25 ft is fine, but what really matters is what is happening 100-300 feet out in front of the car.
    Last edited by CraigS; 11-24-2018 at 06:50 PM.
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  14. #9
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    I ordered my car with the body cutouts and the clocking points for the buckets are at the top and right (passenger) side of each hole. I can see how this could be missed if doing your own body holes as we typically try to make things symmetrical. If not clocked properly, the headlight won't mount in the bucket in the proper orientation and that could be why the adjustments are not working.
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  15. #10
    #9160 BB767's Avatar
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    Maybe it was intentional to try to get the alignment to come in, but definitely not assembled correctly. The screw inside the red circle appears to be one that attaches the headlight bucket to the fiberglass body.

    Yes, it was intentional to try and correct the problem, but it is assembled correctly. This is one of the screw that holds the metal headlight ring to the plastic ring as shown on page 442 of the assembly manual.

    The lower right part of the second photo shows the typical trouble spot: the pot metal clips that attach the ring to the headlight almost always strip or bend/break so that the headlight isn't held securely to the retainer. Third photo shows one possible fix: cut a strip to backup/reinforce the existing clip. A Simpson "strong-tie" (TP45, available at Home Depot) works well and the holes are already pre-drilled. Can see it if you look closely at the second photo. Not my idea...saw it posted here previously: https://www.ffcars.com/forums/17-fac...ht-rattle.html

    Yes, I have broken a few of the clips and have constructed new ones out of left over aluminum.






    [/QUOTE]

    The holes were factory drilled, there is only one way to install the bucket. I had to "shim" it slightly but most of the modification is to the ring that secures the trim ring to the headlight, I had to bend the heck out of it as you can see if you look closely.

    This should be a very simple installation if the body around the holes is square to the direction of travel. Unfortunately it is not. There is no elegant way to remedy this problem, at least none I have figured out yet. As I said, this winter I will disassemble it and try to find the best solution. In the mean time, if Mr Fogg or any one else who actually has the same problem figures out what to do, please let me know.

    Tony, it is not an aiming problem, it is the angular orientation between the body and the cars direction of travel.

    Rich, I'll take that bet, and I will double down. Buckets are flush with the body as you can see in the photos.


    "There is no way properly adjusted lights will set that crooked to the body."
    Unless the body is crooked!
    Last edited by BB767; 11-24-2018 at 10:40 PM.
    MK4 - complete kit - Blueprint 427W - Holly Sniper EFI - TKO 600 .64 - 3.55 3 link - 17" Halibrands

  16. #11
    Senior Member karlos's Avatar
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    Your photo seems to show a gap between the rubber gasket and the fiberglass body. No way the bucket is flush with the body if that's the case. And if the bucket's not tight against the body all the way around the circumference it's not installed correctly.

    No, I don't actually have the same problem, so I'll take the hint and butt out. Not throwing rocks at what you did, man, just trying to help. Good luck with finding a fix.


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  17. #12
    #9160 BB767's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=karlos;347747]Your photo seems to show a gap between the rubber gasket and the fiberglass body. No way the bucket is flush with the body if that's the case. And if the bucket's not tight against the body all the way around the circumference it's not installed correctly.

    No problem Karlos. That gap is between the bucket itself and the body. That very small section is being pulled away from the body by the excess inward pull of that section of the headlight ring. As you can see the bucket is flush on both sides of that point. Also notice the plastic ring the headlight is mounted to being distorted inward, lot's of stress there against the excessive extension on the other side of the housing. Both these distortions are caused by the corrective measures required to align the headlights correctly.

    No, I don't actually have the same problem, so I'll take the hint and butt out. Not throwing rocks at what you did, man, just trying to help. Good luck with finding a fix.

    I try not to be overly sensitive, I have made plenty of stupid mistakes during the build, but after putting the entire car together I figure I should be able to put these four simple parts together correctly! I will keep looking for other answers but I am pretty sure the headlight mounting area on the body is not squared up as it should be, especially since Mr. Fogg has described the exact same symptoms so precisely! What are the chances that we both mounted BOTH of our headlights incorrectly exactly the same way, to cause the exact same multiple angle error in the beam placement?Attachment 98120Attachment 98121

    I've attached a couple more photos from slightly different angles (Right and left lights respectively). Although there is some slight rippling of the buckets, what may appear to be gaps are mostly reflections. I cannot get my fingernail into any point other than the one you pointed out and the one shown in the left light, and that is just barely. None of these are nearly large enough to cause the massive offset required to aim the lights. The ridiculously large and one sided gaps are between the bucket, and the bulb/mounting ring combination attached to it.

    Note these photo's are with the chrome bezel trim ring on. It is a lot uglier with them off!
    Last edited by BB767; 11-25-2018 at 12:46 AM.
    MK4 - complete kit - Blueprint 427W - Holly Sniper EFI - TKO 600 .64 - 3.55 3 link - 17" Halibrands

  18. #13
    Senior Member rich grsc's Avatar
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    Well looking at the pictures, it sure look as if its assembled incorrectly. The screw circled in red isn't on my setup and I don't think should be there. I have put together a number of these, and have never seen that kind of screw used on the headlights.
    headlight2.jpg
    Standing facing the car, the adjusting screws are on the top and left side of the buckets. the above picture shows both adjusting screws, sorry they all ended up sideways(?).
    headlight1.jpg
    This picture shows the top adjusting screw and the one and only screw holding the headlight ring, seen above the turn signal ring. The ring is fastened to the plastic bucket with just that one screw, the adjusting screws slide into the slotted tabs on the ring, and they move the headlight in and out, using the one fixed attach point as the pivot.
    headlight3.jpg
    How it looks on my car, the trim ring snapped onto the bucket.

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  20. #14
    Senior Member phileas_fogg's Avatar
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    I'm confident I've assembled the headlights correctly. The gasket only fits on the back of the bucket one way and is between the lip of the bucket and the body. The gasket is tight to the body, and the lip is tight to the gasket. The bucket is clocked so that the "Wagner" on the front glass of the headlight bulb is horizontal. The headlight is secure in the clips, and the adjustment screws are at the top and left.

    I am not at all surprised to learn the body from Jim that the body is asymmetric, and that would certainly account for what BB767 and tonywy are observing. I'm going to fool with these some more next week when the kids are in school. At that time I'll duplicate Jim's measurements and report what I find.


    John

    P.S. Papa: Double check the indexing holes cut by F5. My left side was WAY off, such that the "Wagner" was a good 15* off from horizontal. I had to drill new holes.

    IMG_5146 by jhsitton, on Flickr

    IMG_5148 by jhsitton, on Flickr

    IMG_5149 by jhsitton, on Flickr

    IMG_5144 by jhsitton, on Flickr
    Last edited by phileas_fogg; 11-25-2018 at 12:26 PM.
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    https://www.ffcars.com/threads/phile.../#post-4776313

  21. #15
    Senior Member karlos's Avatar
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    For comparison purposes, here are some photos of where my car ended up after using a set of headlight aimers.

    Headlight aimers



    Left side, view looking top to bottom


    Inboard side is adjusted much further out than the outboard side.


    Left side, view looking from left to right


    Bottom is adjusted out more than the top.


    Right side, view looking from top to bottom


    Inboard vs outboard adjustment is fairly even.


    Right side, view looking right to left


    Top is slightly further out than the bottom.


    No doubt that there is some asymmetry built in to the body, but I believe a large part of the issue is the subjective nature of the "shine-the-lights-on-a-wall" aiming process. John's photos don't look night-and-day different from where I ended up. Maybe try to run down someone with a set of aimers and see where that leaves you?


    Want to repeat the importance of reinforcing the cheesy retaining ring mounting clips. A few more photos to illustrate (next post - there is a 7 picture limit on any given post).
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  23. #16
    Senior Member karlos's Avatar
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    Here's the retaining ring installed on the bulb, showing equal protrusion of the bulb all the way around the retaining ring.



    Here's the back side. Note the cracks in the clips.



    Here's the bulb/retainer assembled into the headlight bucket with the adjustment screws set roughly equal.



    Now with one of the adjustment screws out at an extreme



    Note what happens to the bulb - there is now a gap between the bulb and the ring. Adjustment capability is effectively lost because the clips bend as the adjustment screws are moved. This happens because the adjustment screw moves the ring, but the ring can't move the bulb. The retaining clips bend rather than transfer the force necessary to move the bulb. If the cheesy clips that are supplied with the kit aren't dealt with first the alignment will be difficult, and even if you can set it initially it won't hold. Use steel rather than aluminum to reinforce the clips, as steel has 3 times the stiffness of aluminum. Hence the TP45 (steel) piece shown above.
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  25. #17
    Senior Member phileas_fogg's Avatar
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    Today I inspected the clips that hold the bulb to its retaining ring and found no evidence of bending, cracking, or other deformation.

    I also confirmed the general body anomalies Jim1855 reported. On my car,

    1. Left Side Headlight: The top of the headlight bucket is 1/8" forward of the bottom, naturally pointing the headlight down.
    2. Right Side Headlight: The top of the headlight bucket is 1/16" aft of the bottom, naturally pointing the headlight up.
    3. Left Side Headlight: The right side of the bucket is slightly forward of the left side, naturally pointing the headlight right.
    4. Right Side Headlight: Same as the left, naturally pointing to the right.

    To fix the aiming problem, I used a power sander to remove about 1/8" of the fixed mounting point on the bucket (visible in the photo below right next to the spring clip that holds the trim ring in place). This should bring the rim of the light closer to the body such that the adjustment screws don't have to be run out so far and the trim ring will fit. I'll report the results after I do a second aiming attempt at night.


    John

    IMG_5148 by jhsitton, on Flickr
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    https://www.ffcars.com/threads/phile.../#post-4776313

  26. #18
    Not a waxer Jeff Kleiner's Avatar
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    I didn't read everything because it's way too much conversation for me but the root of the problem is the body. The headlight pads are not parallel; they both look inward (with the left side being even more extreme than the right) making the headlights "crosseyed". I've built the pads up a couple of times but most guys don't really care and just say adjust them as close as possible without making them appear too wonky.

    Jeff

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  28. #19
    Senior Member AC Bill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Kleiner View Post
    the root of the problem is the body.
    My exact suggestion in post #4. There must have been a few body's produced where the mold was tweaked somehow. It hasn't been a inherent flaw in all of them.

  29. #20
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    I just plugged and played my headlights. They give the right amount of helpful light just fine (IMO). Cross eyed? maybe, but I have can see very well with them.

    Warning: Bad Advice Ahead: Get it on the road at night and see what needs to be adjusted, then make the adjustments.

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    Last edited by DadofThree; 11-27-2018 at 02:46 PM.
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  31. #21
    Not a waxer Jeff Kleiner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AC Bill View Post
    My exact suggestion in post #4. There must have been a few body's produced where the mold was tweaked somehow. It hasn't been a inherent flaw in all of them.
    More than "a few" and I'd venture that it's the same with all Mk4s. I have 3 Mk4s here right now plus a Mk4 "wall art" nose---they are all alike and the same as the ones I've made corrections to. If you lay a straightedge across the front with it flush to the RH pad it will show that the LH pad is about 1/2" farther rearward at the center and angled inward by 3/16-1/4". I've never straightedged a Mk3 nose and don't know if the same condition exists on them. I'm due to get one in a few weeks and if I remember I'll check it just to satisfy my curiosity.

    Hey, it's all just part of the charm of these cars!





    Jeff

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    Senior Member AC Bill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Kleiner View Post
    More than "a few" and I'd venture that it's the same with all Mk4s.
    Really! I hadn't heard a rash of complaints regarding this issue in the past, so assumed it was just the odd body here and there. Many FFR MK4's out there, must have wonky headlights..

  33. #23
    Senior Member karlos's Avatar
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    No question the body isn’t perfect. That’s of course why the headlights are adjustable in the first place. What’s important is whether the irregularities are correctable within the limits of the provided adjustment capability. So rather than having many cars with wonky headlights, we more likely have many cars for which the adjustment was sufficient to correct the imperfections in the body. The Hoppy headlight aimer confirms this to be true at least in the case of my car.

    Also worth noting that my car and John’s car are only separated by 10 cars in the production sequence based on serial numbers. A change to the mold could have happened in that time but I doubt it.
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  34. #24
    Not a waxer Jeff Kleiner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by karlos View Post
    Also worth noting that my car and John’s car are only separated by 10 cars in the production sequence based on serial numbers. A change to the mold could have happened in that time but I doubt it.
    I made the correction on #8352 and #9028 and have seen it on a whole variety of them before and in between so like you am doubtful that any changes have been made to the mold. It's just not something that most people notice---kind of like how most don't notice that the legs of the driver's side and passenger side roll bars are not in the same plane.
    {{{How many of you are running out to the garage to lay a straightedge across your roll bars now? }}}

    Jeff

  35. #25

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    You're fine.......unless this guy is doing the aimingjack-elam-home-improvement.jpg

    Ray
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  36. #26
    Senior Member phileas_fogg's Avatar
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    Success! Trimming the fixed post on the headlight bucket allowed me to run the adjustment screws in so that the trim ring now fits. AND my headlights are properly aimed.

    I used a power sander to take about 1/8" off the fixed post; compare the photo below to the second one in post #14. You can see the post (bottom; just above the brass clip) is shorter and the adjustment screw (top) is run in much farther. This is a pretty easy fix (10 minutes max), and if you take too much off you can always use a couple of small washers to bring the height of the post back up.

    I took it for a short test drive last night, and could see just fine. Nobody flashed their brights at me, so I took that as indication that I don't have them pointed too high. Broke 100 miles on the odometer to boot!


    John

    IMG_5157 by jhsitton, on Flickr
    MK IV Roadster #8631
    Ford 302, Holley Terminator EFI, T5z, 3.55 Rear End, IRS, 17” Halibrand Replicas (9” front, 10.5” rear), Nitto 555 G2’s (275/40ZR17 front, 315/35ZR17 rear), Fast Freddie’s Power Steering, F5 Wilwood Brakes, FFMetal’s Firewall Forward, Forte’s Hydraulic Clutch & Throttle Linkage
    https://www.ffcars.com/threads/phile.../#post-4776313

  37. #27
    Boydster's Avatar
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    Excellent idea and a good, simple, cheap, easy fix to help many others. Thanks John.
    ---Boyd---
    MkIV #9042 build thread
    www.boss427.us
    427W, TKO600, Moser 3.55 rear.
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  39. #28
    Senior Member karlos's Avatar
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    Glad you got it straightened out. Clean, simple fix - great job.
    --
    MKIV Roadster #8641
    Complete Kit with IRS, Eaton Detroit Truetrac, 3.55 gears, Wilwood Brakes
    Ford Racing Z427 w/ Pro-M Sequential Port EFI System
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  41. #29
    Out Drivin' Gumball's Avatar
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    Congrats on getting the fitment and alignment to work out.

    Just thought I'd add a pic showing my headlamp alignment - although as long as the lights aren't blinding oncoming traffic, it's more of a "to the driver's preference" sort of thing.

    These are Lucas PL700 Tri-Bar bulbs on the low beam just after twilight......

    Later,
    Chris

    "There are no more monsters to fear, and so, we have to build our own."
    Mk3.1 #7074

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  43. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gumball View Post
    Congrats on getting the fitment and alignment to work out.

    These are Lucas PL700 Tri-Bar bulbs on the low beam just after twilight......
    Chris, I have the same lights on my bench. Which bulbs did you use, the ones supplied or did you upgrade ??

    Derald.

  44. #31
    Out Drivin' Gumball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Derald Rice View Post
    Chris, I have the same lights on my bench. Which bulbs did you use, the ones supplied or did you upgrade ??

    Derald.
    I used the H4 55/60 bulbs - I think the number was P43+
    Later,
    Chris

    "There are no more monsters to fear, and so, we have to build our own."
    Mk3.1 #7074

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  46. #32
    Papa's Avatar
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    I have the same PL700 reflectors and will be running a Sylvania Silverstar Ultra H4 bulb. I've used them in other applications and love them. They produce a nice bright white color.
    My Build Thread: http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...ter-Build-9754
    (Most viewed Roadster build thread on this forum!)

    Delivered: 6/17/2017
    First Start: 12/30/2017
    Completed: 12/7/2019
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    Member of the Mile-Hi Cobra Club
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  48. #33
    TMartinLVNV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phileas_fogg View Post
    Success! Trimming the fixed post on the headlight bucket allowed me to run the adjustment screws in so that the trim ring now fits. AND my headlights are properly aimed.

    I used a power sander to take about 1/8" off the fixed post; compare the photo below to the second one in post #14. You can see the post (bottom; just above the brass clip) is shorter and the adjustment screw (top) is run in much farther. This is a pretty easy fix (10 minutes max), and if you take too much off you can always use a couple of small washers to bring the height of the post back up.

    I took it for a short test drive last night, and could see just fine. Nobody flashed their brights at me, so I took that as indication that I don't have them pointed too high. Broke 100 miles on the odometer to boot!


    John

    IMG_5157 by jhsitton, on Flickr
    John, I'm resurrecting this thread to say thanks for you finding a simple and cheap fix for this. I had the exact same problem of having the adjusting screws way extended when aiming the headlights. The trim rings wouldn't fit over the headlights anymore and it looked plain goofy. Cutting off a smidge of that post was the perfect fix.
    MK IV Build #9659, 3 link, 17's, Forte 347, Sniper EFI, power steering, built for a freak sized person with 17" Kirkey Vintage seats, RT drop trunk, RT turn signal, lots of stuff from Breeze Automotive, Wilwood brakes, paint by Jeff Miller

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