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Thread: BACK ORDERS! The elephant in the room.

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    BACK ORDERS! The elephant in the room.

    FFR has a HUGE problem that they apparently can't or won't address. I haven't seen them discuss it anyway.

    I can't believe I gave them $26k and they gave me 85% of the parts and I have to wait until some uncertain date in the future before I can continue the build.

    Maybe the long standing FFR community is okay with this but those of us that own a business and meet customer expectations aren't and shouldn't be. This has been going on for years apparently.

    FFR is spending on R&D for new designs and upgraded models but can't fill orders for months after being paid in full?

    Am I the only one that has a problem with this?

    It seems like there is no demand that they address the elephant in the room! W

    Where is Dave Smith telling me why they have long standing back orders and why it's continued for years. What are they are doing to correct this huge problem? Dave? Where is Dave Smith responding to this?

    My frustration is not going away. Anybody else wondering what they are doing?

  2. #2
    Administrator David Hodgkins's Avatar
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    ADMIN EDIT: In retrospect, my reply was too caustic. Sorry about that.
    Last edited by David Hodgkins; 11-29-2018 at 04:05 PM.

    FFR 5369 Pin Drive, IRS, Trigos, Torsen, Wilwoods, FMS BOSS 302 "B" cam , Mass-flo. CA SB100 (SPCN) Registered
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    David covered the main points. I see you're new to the forum. This is talked about quite a bit, and I've addressed in each of my build threads. I'm just as impatient as the next guy, and I've had more than a little anxiety about the backorder list (AKA POL or Parts Order List in Factory Five terminology) when I've had kits delivered. Obviously I would be ecstatic if there weren't any backordered parts. But there are for multiple reasons as described. Not saying there isn't room for improvement (and I've said that) but to not expect any backorders for something this complex, with this many parts, and from so many sources isn't realistic. Not to question you, but I suspect the 85% number you cite is probably more emotional than factual.

    What I can say is (1) In all but two cases (both vendor issues) I've had all the backordered parts in 4-8 weeks after kit delivery, (2) Factory Five is diligent about sending the backordered parts as they're available. Sometimes they will wait and gather things into a consolidated shipment. But if you need something and they have it available, I've called and they shipped it right out instead of consolidating, (3) I've personally made it a practice to follow up regularly with my backorders. The team at Factory Five has been willing and helpful to keep me up-to-date with the backordered parts status, (4) While I've had to work around missing parts occasionally, I can't honestly say that backordered parts have delayed my builds. You might need to be creative and not exactly follow the assembly sequence. But it's 100% doable, (5) Unless you're one of those lightening fast builders, the weeks waiting for backordered parts is a small fraction of the overall build time and will be soon forgotten.
    Last edited by edwardb; 11-28-2018 at 09:55 PM.
    Build 1: Mk3 Roadster #5125. Sold 11/08/2014.
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    42Bfast's Avatar
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    To add a bit of perspective, I retired from the aerospace industry where as a mid-sized supplier, we often competed with the big boys, Boeing, Airbus, Lockheed Martin, etc, for parts to go into our assemblies. If a supplier has a problem and falls behind, who do you think gets their parts first, Boeing that is 75% of their business, or us who is 10% of their business?
    The answer is obvious. FFR is likely only a small percentage of some of their supplier’s base of business. Thus, if something goes bump in the night at a supplier, FFR is probably not their first priority.
    You can search the forum and find lots of occurrences of late parts. Take a few minutes, do a search, and let us know how many occurrences you can find of someone NEVER getting their parts. Doubt you will find any.
    Just a suggestion, as this has worked for me, in life, and with this hobby, ..... take a deep breath, be patient, be forgiving, lighten up and enjoy the ride! Life is too short to continue sweating the small stuff,...especially when it’s something that is supposed to be fun. If it ain’t fun, YOU are probably not doing it right!

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    Senior Member Gromit's Avatar
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    Between all the models and all the options you are looking at tens of thousands of different parts parts to order, receive, warehouse, re package and ship the fact that the POL lists are as short as they are is pretty good. The point is you never hear of the parts NOT being delivered and that's what is most important over the years plenty of other kit car companies that delivered 60% of the parts and never delivered the rest

    Good things come to those that wait patiently

  6. #6
    Brandon #9196 TexasAviator's Avatar
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    You seem to lack basic business sense. A small business catering to a small niche has to have a model that keeps the cash flow manageable, allow growth, and still be profitable. Something has to give and it's time usually in the form of backorders. Read a book or take a college class while you wait. In the mean time chill out.

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    Wow! While I understand backorders can sometimes prevent you from moving forward on some area of the build, there is plenty that can be done while these BO parts come in the mail. Banging the drum about here wonít win you friends as everyone goes through this in some fashion. Instead of ranting, make good use of your frustration and move forward with your build and place a couple calls to FF about the BO parts and theyíll do everything they can to get them to you as soon as they can.
    Kyle

    Complete Kit pickup 09/05/2015, 351w, QF680, 3.55, 3-Link, 15" Halibrands with MT's, Painted Viking blue with Wimbledon white stripes on 03/15/2017.

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    Price, Quality, Speed.................. Pick Two. Same the world over.
    Mk4, IRS, (Forte: 427 with EFI, T-56 MAG, hydraulic clutch, mechanical linkage) (Breeze: Front and Rear Double adjustable QA1's, Cockpit cubby, LED Lights) (Russ: Drop Trunk, Turn Signal)

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    I have to ask the obvious question;

    What parts are you waiting on?

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  12. #10
    Steve >> aka: GoDadGo GoDadGo's Avatar
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    Stallion,

    1. I didn't have significant issues when I ordered my car; however, it was a much softer economic time.
    2. I ordered my kit on November 10th, 2014 and requested a delivery date for for late January 2015.
    3. Only a handful of insignificant parts were missing and they were all outsource vendor related items.
    4. With the super strong economy my gut tells me that Factory Five can't build them fast enough.
    5. This would likely also impact the ordering and delivery of outsourced items.
    6. Have some faith and follow up with F-5 weekly on items that you are missing.
    7. I think this is related to current demand, a super strong economy and the supply chain.


    NOTE:...I am a Small Business & SBA Commercial Loan Work Out Officer so I've seen the ups and downs and right now things are doing well, quite well. Since F-5 falls into this category I think the recent tax and regulatory relief that has strengthened the economy has pushed their demand up to a point where they sound as if they may be struggling a bit.

    Good Luck From The Dark-Dart Side!

    Steve
    Last edited by GoDadGo; 11-29-2018 at 09:22 AM.

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    Senior Member Mike N's Avatar
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    1 post highlighting a long standing issue and 6 posts saying it's OK exactly as it is. That is one reason why it's unlikely to change.

    I understand the challenges of suppliers and inventory control, I deal with it everyday. What is almost always the catalyst for raised blood pressure is lack of communication. If you know a part is going to be a little late there is almost always something you can do to work around it. If you were aware that front lower control arms were 6 weeks out when you ordered your kit you could plan on starting at the rear, or sheet metal instead of the front suspension. Having a plan in your head and being excited to get stuck in when your kit arrives, and then realizing that your plan is now dead in the water is obviously going to generate a pretty profound reaction. Something as simple as being told what the current back order items are when you order your kit, and perhaps an update a week or so before delivery would probably go a long way in reducing the obvious negative reaction to looking for a key part and realizing it's not there.
    Mike............

    FFR2100 - 331 with KB supercharger - T5 - 5 link rear 3.08's and T2 Torsen.

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    Waiting for my 65 Coupe nskaats's Avatar
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    I think the main reason most don't complain about it is there's so many other things you can be working on while waiting for those backordered parts. Move on to another area. If you're doing this as a business, time management shouldn't be an unfamiliar concept.
    --Nick Skaats--
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  16. #13
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    Good Afternoon Everyone,
    I want to apologize to you all for any back-orders you may have, as I am the purchaser here at Factory Five. Whether the parts are produced here or outsourced from one of our hundreds of vendors, back-orders are my responsibility to manage. I work very closely with all of our vendors to get materials and parts here, but unfortunately unforeseen delays sometimes occur. Along with my efforts, our shipping department is working around the clock to package and send out everyone's parts in as timely a fashion as possible in chronological order once they are received here. Please keep in mind that many of these parts have been back-ordered for months, so it will take some time for us to ship them all out. I ask of you to please bare with us and be patient for just a bit longer. Soon enough you will have all of your parts to build your dream vehicle and then enjoy it for years to come. If you have any further questions, please do not hesitate to send me an email - [email protected] and I will reply to you as quickly as I can.
    Thank you.

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  18. #14
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    I have to comment to this thread. I owned a small business for years where we built some high end marine engines. The toughest part of the process was time. It would take many months for a build. Not because it took that long to do the work but parts were slow. Many items were very low volume and were made in batches. If your order hit at the end of a run you just had to wait until the next run. Iím sure FFR deals with the exact situation. Thatís what makes their product affordable. If they tried to stay ahead of the curve and keep everything in stock, we as the customer would pay the price. Thatís just the way it works in a small niche market. Another thought on this subject. The delivery time for a FFR is relatively short. They could wait to deliver until all the parts were on hand, which would solve the backorder issue. However everyone would then be unhappy about that time frame and they would probably have to get more space for storage which would drive prices up. So, I'm personally very happy with the way their system is working.
    Last edited by bobl; 12-06-2018 at 06:52 PM.
    Mk IV Roadster, 347/516 HP, 8 stack injection, Astro Performance T5, 3-Link 3.55 gears, Purchased 08/2015, Graduated 02/2017

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    Senior Member cv2065's Avatar
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    Just to add, any backordered items that you have is FAR outweighed by the excellent customer service after the sale. I’m extremely impressed.
    MKIV Roadster - Complete Kit - Delivered 7/17/18
    Build Thread: https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/show...V-Build-Thread

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    Delivering thousands of components in a few weeks isn't as easy as it sounds...

    Quote Originally Posted by Stallion View Post
    "and they gave me 85% of the parts and I have to wait until some uncertain date in the future before I can continue the build.

    Maybe the long standing FFR community is okay with this but those of us that own a business and meet customer expectations aren't and shouldn't be."
    A large part of the problem (probably 90%) has to do with FFR's suppliers' negligence, not theirs. As someone with a lot of exposure to the automotive industry, I know that even when you give what should be more than sufficient lead-time on orders (particularly mid-size orders) many companies struggle (or simply don't attempt) to fill your order in a reasonable time. That being said, in my well-rounded opinion, 85% is damn impressive for a company FFR's size. Additionally, FFR is fantastic about making sure you get the backordered parts, and they will also povide any parts they missed with minimal questions even after the cut-off date to claim those. FFR easily F***ed up my order more than anyone else on this site (I ended up having to send my whole frame back to them), and I can honestly say they were absolutly stellar in their customer service and delivered what was promised. I understand that it's frusterating not to have all the parts at first, but expecting them to provide 100% at delivery in a matter of 8 weeks is an unreasonable expectation. Wait for your parts, they will come.

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    Agree with most of the comments and am personally happy with how my experience has gone thus far. Everything has not been perfect and the one thing FFR could definitely benefit from is improved communication as Mike N mentions above. There are some I've communicated with at FFR who are immensely helpful and others who haven't bothered to answer the email. It doesn't matter what business I'm dealing with, if there's an issue it always goes smoother and I was always feel better about it if they tell me what's going on and what to expect. If there is silence, or one word answers, it only aggravates the situation.

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    Its interesting that the thread starter hasn't posted since his first post.
    Last edited by Jwheels; 12-06-2018 at 09:06 PM.

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    Senior Member TDSapp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FF33rod View Post
    Agree with most of the comments and am personally happy with how my experience has gone thus far. Everything has not been perfect and the one thing FFR could definitely benefit from is improved communication as Mike N mentions above. There are some I've communicated with at FFR who are immensely helpful and others who haven't bothered to answer the email. It doesn't matter what business I'm dealing with, if there's an issue it always goes smoother and I was always feel better about it if they tell me what's going on and what to expect. If there is silence, or one word answers, it only aggravates the situation.


    I found that every time I have emailed FFR I have gotten a reply back very quickly. I don't think I have ever been ignored.
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    It's interesting to note that several folks attacked the fellow that posted the first post, hmmm. I purchased the complete roadster kit as well as the coyote, trans , and IRS rear end from FFR. I prefer to single source as much as possible and in this case it was a good choice mostly. FFR does have a real problem with backorders, and shortages. It was over eight weeks before I received most of my backordered parts. I was advised to stay in close contact with FFR to speed up delivery, and yes it worked. In my opinion FFR is having growing pains. I'm guessing but pretty sure the manpower assigned to handle these problems has not changed from when they were making ten cars a month to the present thirty cars or more. Growing a business to a formidable presence is akin to playing wack a mole address one issue and three others pop up. I have no doubt they will get the backorder problems resolved but I also feel Stallions frustration, after paying north of 40k for a project and receiving only part of it is difficult especially after it is paid for weeks prior to shipping anything. My opinion if an e-mail was sent once a week at least advising of the missing parts status folks would feel better.

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  26. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jwheels View Post
    Its interesting that the thread starter hasn't posted since his first post.
    I don't think it's surprising. The guy posts about something that bothers him and 20 people jump on him telling him he is basically wrong.

    Are you told when you pick up your kit how many parts are on back-order? How about an option to pick it up COMPLETE, even if it means waiting a while longer.

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  28. #22
    edwardb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FFRWRX View Post
    I don't think it's surprising. The guy posts about something that bothers him and 20 people jump on him telling him he is basically wrong.

    Are you told when you pick up your kit how many parts are on back-order? How about an option to pick it up COMPLETE, even if it means waiting a while longer.
    Can't help it. Must respond. The guy didn't post "something" he posted a rant. As evidenced by the content and no follow-up. 7-8 people disagreed with him (not 20) and most including me offered some perspective and workarounds. Yes, the backorder list is part of the delivery paperwork. Most including me wouldn't be interested in waiting until it's 100% complete. Of course it would be great if it were 100% complete on the promised delivery date. I'm all for that! But the alternative is to get started and the backordered parts will arrive during the first weeks of the build. Sometimes requires deviating from the sequence slightly, as several of us pointed out, but no big deal. Kudos to Jay at Factory Five for responding. He's a class guy and took the high road.

    Quote Originally Posted by 65kid View Post
    It's interesting to note that several folks attacked the fellow that posted the first post, hmmm. I purchased the complete roadster kit as well as the coyote, trans , and IRS rear end from FFR. I prefer to single source as much as possible and in this case it was a good choice mostly. FFR does have a real problem with backorders, and shortages. It was over eight weeks before I received most of my backordered parts. I was advised to stay in close contact with FFR to speed up delivery, and yes it worked. In my opinion FFR is having growing pains. I'm guessing but pretty sure the manpower assigned to handle these problems has not changed from when they were making ten cars a month to the present thirty cars or more. Growing a business to a formidable presence is akin to playing wack a mole address one issue and three others pop up. I have no doubt they will get the backorder problems resolved but I also feel Stallions frustration, after paying north of 40k for a project and receiving only part of it is difficult especially after it is paid for weeks prior to shipping anything. My opinion if an e-mail was sent once a week at least advising of the missing parts status folks would feel better.
    Mostly the responses were suggesting how to deal with it. Right or wrong, this isn't a new issue. Kits have been delivered with backordered parts for as long as I've been kicking around with them. The volume rises and falls depending on a number of factors. Not saying that Factory Five isn't aggressive in launching new models or versions (they certainly are) or that they aren't a lean organization (they are) but this isn't new. I agree about regular follow-up and that's a key. I take the initiative though. Once a week, or so, based on the parts and the previous promise dates, is about right in my experience.

    Just to recap though, I'm not say it's "OK." There's plenty of room for improvement. But given the complexity, the relative short lead time they are able to provide for kit orders as someone pointed out, the custom and unique nature of what's going on here, and the multiple vendors involved, backorders at some level are going to happen. FWIW, when your build is done and you're blasting down the road, this whole subject will never enter your mind.
    Last edited by edwardb; 12-07-2018 at 12:05 PM.
    Build 1: Mk3 Roadster #5125. Sold 11/08/2014.
    Build 2: Mk4 Roadster #7750. Sold 04/10/2017. #7750 Build Thread
    Build 3: Mk4 Roadster 20th Anniversary #8674. 03 of 20. 2015 crate Coyote, 2015 IRS. Legal 04/18/2017. #8674 Build Thread
    Build 4: Gen 3 Type 65 Coupe #59. Gen 3 crate Coyote. Delivered 12/2/2017. #59 Coupe Build Thread

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  30. #23
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    First off, thanks everyone for the good discussion. My perspective is very limited as I've not yet received my kit. I just made my final payment yesterday and have a kit completion date of Dec. 22, so the anticipation is almost literally kiling me at the moment. Also thanks to Jay for posting here - very classy.

    That said, I do have a LOT of experience in this area, generally speaking, in that I've worked in low-volume, high-value manufacturing my entire career. Having been in Operations for a company that makes multi-million dollar pieces of equipment for the semiconductor industry, it was expected by our customers that we shipped systems complete and on-time. Period. Delays or missing parts would literally cost our customers hundreds of thousands of dollars per day. Of course, it wasn't always possible to ship systems complete. Last-minute problems arise, and heroic last-minute diving catches don't work 100% of the time. The absolute key to managing irate customers is to communicate early and often. Even when you think you're over-communicating, you're not. First off, we we not allowed to ship systems with backorders without first notifying the customer prior to shipment and getting their agreement to ship the system complete vs. waiting for the backordered parts. Second, we would communicate status proactively and often on all backorders until they were installed. Were customers still sometimes mad? Absolutely. But... nowhere near as mad as they otherwise would have been if the system arrived on their doorstep with shortages that they hadn't been notified about.

    Jay, if you're still reading... I'm always about solutions and not just problems, so here are a few ideas. It seems that Factory Five already know what items are backordered at the time the kit is completed, as it sounds like a backorder list is included with the shipment. Why can't this list be e-mailed to the customer on the kit complete date? Also, intead of the customer having to call up every week to check on the status of backorders, why can't an update e-mail go out once a week? This could easily be system-generated by your MRP system, which would save you the personnel-time of having to field calls from every customer with an outstanding backorder. (Hopefully you do have a decent MRP system. If not, that's a good chunk of your problem right there). Just a couple of ideas on ways to improve communications and hopefully ease the backorder headaches. Just my $0.02, having dealt with more than my fair share of backorders and angry customers.

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  32. #24
    ILPBFoot's Avatar
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    Maybe I'm a bit biased because I attended build school. One of the first things from Scott and Charles was "parts will be back ordered and trickle in over a 6 to 10 week period". "Plan your build based on the POL and all will get to you eventually". I started my build expecting it and that's exactly what happened. Never even thought twice about it. Yes they had 100% of my money but was getting at least one shipment a week from the POL. Last item 6 moths from kit delivery. The rear nudge bar. No biggie. I wont put it on until July of 2019.

    Point is, I knew there was a POL and I expected things to be back ordered. I heard this from Build School rather than when I ordered my kit. And my wife and I personally visited FFR and ordered the kit sitting in the show room. Not a mention of a POL and back orders. I think FFR could do a better job of telling people up front and reducing the "surprise" of the POL.
    Mk4 Roadster #9319, complete kit Received 4-10-18. Moser 8.8. 3 Link. Wilwood brakes. Blue Print 427, w Holley 850 Double Pumper, manual Choke, 501 hp with 498 lb-ft torque. TKO 600 0.64 OD

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    Senior Member CVOBill's Avatar
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    Everyone has an opinion on this and most understand it is going to happen. Kudos to Jay for getting on here and helping out. In my business I try my best to have parts available when I need them. It doesn't always happen and sometimes we have to wait. I've got to believe FFR would love to ship everything together just to save money on shipping the back ordered parts. Every time they ship a back ordered part, the shipping is eating into their profit and that's something we all can understand.
    CVOBill

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    MK2 #???? Delivered 11/2002, Finished and Titled 6/2003
    5.0, T-5, 4-Link, Sold 3/2005

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