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Thread: Advice needed from the painters - PPG DP40LF as primer/sealer

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    Advice needed from the painters - PPG DP40LF as primer/sealer

    Many years ago I was the main painter and body man at a shop. We specialized in heavy truck crashes (semis rolled or wedged under bridges), but also did a broad range of refinishing, from garden-variety collision work to rail equipment to the occasional sailboat or jet-ski. We used a lot of PPG products and I've probably sprayed 1,000 gallons of them and other paints, but that was 18 years ago.

    I have left over from those days a gallon of DP402LF catalyst and I am thinking about using DP40LF as the sole primer on top of my body work. Having worked on the coupe since 2011, and it being a race car with plates, and having no great love of block-sanding, I'm inclined to just do the filler work very straight and smooth, skip any high-build primer, and just lay down 2 thinner coats of DP40LF on the entire car, followed by 2 more thick coats on the filler for build.

    I realize that this is not the way to get the car arrow-straight. That being said, before I buy the DP, is there any reason I should be talked out of this plan?

  2. #2
    Senior Member Presto51's Avatar
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    Jacob,

    Question one, how old is that DP402LF catalyst, and has it been opened in the past? If over a year old, I'd say don't trust it, dump it, chemicals start going bad after exposure to air.

    Question two, what is the final grit on your sand paper that your going to use on the filler work that you plan to do? DP40LF, if memory serves correct, is a great adhesion promoter for top coats, but does not have any filling property's. Hate to see all the work that you put into it go in the wrong direction.

    My two cents worth: It's not worth by passing the high fill primer stage, it will give you that little bit extra pizzazz when you spray on the top coats. You can skip the sealer coat, if you finish the high fill primer/filler with 600 grit.

    As the old saying goes: Live by the short cut, die by the short cut.

    Wish you all the best with getting your project sprayed and looking good.

    Ron

    BTW: I spent 24 years as a production, collision painter, if that means anything.
    "May you be in heaven a full half hour before the Devil knows you're dead"

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    Thanks Ron, I appreciate the comments.

    The DP catalyst must be 16 years old, but for what it's worth, it's essentially a full gallon and I would've only opened it once, albeit 16 years ago. I may try it on the spoiler first, to see if there's anything visibly wrong, and confirm it actually cures, before I move on to the underside of the hood and so on.

    I would final sand the filler with 120 or 150 - just smooth enough that your fingernail wouldn't feel the scratches. I've never been a big believer in leaving deep scratches in filler, then filling them in with high-build primer.

    I distinctly remember the original DP40, with lead, had virtually no filling properties, but that the DP-LF had some build to it - not like a high-build urethane, but not terrible with a few thick coats. I did just that with a Toyota truck and don't remember any lack of film thickness.

    I'll have to call the shop, but I seem to remember we'd occasionally prime an entire vehicle with DP, then immediately spray NCP250 high-build primer on just the spots with filler, block it all down and spray color. Any thoughts on this process? Thanks!

  4. #4
    Not a waxer Jeff Kleiner's Avatar
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    I'm not sure what you're trying to gain here??? 120 or 150 are significant scratches and will show through DP. My recipe is much like Prestos; filler and gelcoat to 320, high build to 400, added sealer if used nibbed to 1000 then base. But I'm going for slick...if that isn't your goal carry on.

    Jeff

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    Senior Member Taz Rules's Avatar
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    I would never shoot ANY paint (especially a metallic or pearl, but really, any paint at all) over anything that was sanded to less than 600 grit. (800 for pearls and micas and anything in the silver spectrum)

    If you've gotta sand your filler anyway (generally I sand filler to 180 btw), you may as well sand your primer. Sanding is sanding, after all, and sanding primer is way more predictable as it is a more uniform product than filler (or substrate!)

    Seriously, anything 400 or less will DEFINITELY show scratch through sealer and paint, and if your paint has any decent gloss, the paint will actually highlight the scratches further and make them really stand out.

    Another, more technical question, since I have worked primarily with BASF (Glasurit) and House of Kolors, and therefore know very little about PPG... will that old catalyst still be compatible, even if it isn't spoiled, with the modern chemistry of current PPG products? Even the same lines get tweaked over time, and I'm willing to wager that VOC regs have resulted in some changes in the formulas. You may just end up with a very soft, or very brittle product, or even some colourful form of oatmeal.

    Just a thought.

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    Well , You were in the biz, you know how it's going to shake out so I say go for it.....I wouldn't bet on that hardener being worth a crap all these years but like you say do a test......but do it on a trash can, not your spoiler....my 2 cents...da Bat

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    Yeah, I suppose a trash can would be the right test piece!

    "If you've gotta sand your filler anyway (generally I sand filler to 180 btw), you may as well sand your primer. Sanding is sanding, after all, and sanding primer is way more predictable as it is a more uniform product than filler (or substrate!)"

    You make a good point, and it is becoming clear that there will be a LOT of filler on the body if I want it anywhere near straight. This weighs in favor of priming the whole thing with high-build, and just accepting the fact that I will be block-sanding much of it.

    As for what I'm trying to gain, just trying to use some material on hand, and avoid the labor of block-sanding high build primer. The thought was to prime the whole car with DP40LF, let it sit for a month or two, maybe more, then sand it smooth with (in the end) 600 grit, then base and clear. I understand that you can't fill 150-grit scratches with a sealer, then immediately shoot the topcoat and expect anything but scratches.

    That all being said, what are the current thoughts on a good high-build primer? I only know PPG NCP250 and this old Mar-hyde product that was yellow and came in a purple can. I see Slick Sand mentioned in the build manual, and on the forums, but have no experience with it.

  8. #8
    Not a waxer Jeff Kleiner's Avatar
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    I use Slick Sand and several years ago gave Featherfill a couple of shots. I've looked at some of the others but they don't produce the same build per coat (gallon) that SS does. Slick Sand comes down easily (a bit easier than Featherfill) and will sand out with a whole lot less effort than "sanding smooth" the DP you mentioned (that stuff gets HARD!). Shoot your final pass of SS cut about 10% with Acetone and it will lay out much slicker, thereby cutting down on the amount of sanding. Face it...you're gonna' have to do plenty of sanding no matter what...it seems to never end...we sand gelcoat...we sand filler...we sand primer...after we paint the car we color sand! You find a way to eliminate all that you'll make millions

    Jeff

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    Senior Member Presto51's Avatar
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    "Face it...you're gonna' have to do plenty of sanding no matter what...it seems to never end...we sand gelcoat...we sand filler...we sand primer...after we paint the car we color sand!"

    Look at it this way, you'll be entering into the Zen zone, it's quite the trip.

    Word on the street is that Jeff and da bat put on some good tunes, and have an ice chest with favorite beverages, and don't emerge until they hear, like Brave Ulysses the sweet siren song.

    Of course they also look like a powered donut, but that is another story to tell.

    Ron
    "May you be in heaven a full half hour before the Devil knows you're dead"

  11. #10
    Not a waxer Jeff Kleiner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Presto51 View Post

    Word on the street is that Jeff and da bat put on some good tunes, and have an ice chest with favorite beverages, and don't emerge until they hear, like Brave Ulysses the sweet siren song.
    Wow, it's almost like you've been here...





    Jeff

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  12. #11
    Senior Member Taz Rules's Avatar
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    I've used Slick Sand a fair amount. A couple of points:

    I've always shot SS using a 3.0 needle and cap, and lay it on thick. Wait about 2 days and block.
    also, remember that SS is a SPRAYABLE FILLER, not a true primer. It should have primer applied after sanding.
    I've often laid down a very thin coat of epoxy primer on the substrate, then followed it with the SlickSand and primer.
    I've never had problems with SS, but one guy told me that there could be adhesion issues without the epoxy. That's second hand info, though, so take it for what its worth.

    That said, DAMN but it can get a body straight! And it does sand easy, and gives a really consistent hardness that helps avoid waves and ripples.

  13. #12
    JohnK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Kleiner View Post
    Wow, it's almost like you've been here...



    Jeff

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    You had me up until the Miller High Life.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Kleiner View Post
    Wow, it's almost like you've been here...





    Jeff

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    Hot summer day, sanding dust in every nook, cranny and orifice.....MGD all the way for that big smack of beer-thirty refreshment...da Bat....btw, what's a "cranny".... do boys have a "cranny".....jus figured if I'm going to use a word I should know the definition....LATE !

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  16. #14
    Not a waxer Jeff Kleiner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by j.miller View Post
    Hot summer day, sanding dust in every nook, cranny and orifice.....MGD all the way for that big smack of beer-thirty refreshment...da Bat....
    PREACH IT BROTHER! Oh, and it's not just for sanding...



    No matter what JohnK says that's the wonderful thing about "The Champagne of Beers" (also known as my lifeblood)...just like a string of pearls in a woman's wardrobe, it goes with EVERYTHING...sanding...polishing...mowing the lawn...walking the dog...grocery shopping...going to the bank...weddings...bar mitzvahs...funerals... Well, at least in MY world

    So, have we sufficiently derailed this thread?

    Jeff



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  18. #15

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    No, it is still well within the scope of the original topic - but only because Miller tastes about as good as DP40 and its catalysts and reducers.

    All kidding aside, I'll either use the Slick Sand or the current PPG high-build primer on top of an initial coat of DP sealer. I'm curious to see if the old catalyst is still good and will spray something and post the results here. Thanks to all for the good advice.

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    WOW !, Ya know I never thought about MGD for cut and polish.....by the time I get to that stage my back hurts so bad that I switch to ICE MOCHA.....ya know ,,,,, ICEMOCHALATAWEED !!!...da Bat





    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Kleiner View Post
    PREACH IT BROTHER! Oh, and it's not just for sanding...



    No matter what JohnK says that's the wonderful thing about "The Champagne of Beers" (also known as my lifeblood)...just like a string of pearls in a woman's wardrobe, it goes with EVERYTHING...sanding...polishing...mowing the lawn...walking the dog...grocery shopping...going to the bank...weddings...bar mitzvahs...funerals... Well, at least in MY world

    So, have we sufficiently derailed this thread?

    Jeff



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  20. #17
    Senior Member CraigS's Avatar
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    I am no expert at all but have done some painting here and there over the years. For me, I'd trash that stuff and forget about it. No way I would use 18 yr old chemicals even if the test come out OK. And then there is the opinion that it is hard to sand. I hate body work, and the part I hate most is sanding,? so why go w/ a product that is significantly harder to sand
    FFR MkII, 408W, Tremec TKO 500, 2015 IRS, DA QA1s, Forte front bar, APE hardtop.

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    Senior Member frankb's Avatar
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    I think CraigS is trying to return this thread to sanity!
    FFR MK4 #8317, 393 Cleveland, Lunati VooDoo solid roller, CHI 3V heads and intake, TKO 600, Std roadster seats, 8.8 3.55 diff, 17" Halibrand replica wheels, Ford "Magnetic Metallic", silver ghost stripe. (Sold 10/16/21)

  22. #19
    Senior Member Taz Rules's Avatar
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    Too late. The rabbit hole has been opened.

    So who likes to sand with Scotch? A nice Aberlour A'Bunadh or a 21 yr old MacCallan's does the sole a wonder of warmth.

  23. #20
    Senior Member rich grsc's Avatar
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    Who in their right mind would want to throw away perfectly good beer? OH, and I'd show everybody and just use the old dp40 anyway.

  24. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taz Rules View Post
    Too late. The rabbit hole has been opened.

    So who likes to sand with Scotch? A nice Aberlour A'Bunadh or a 21 yr old MacCallan's does the sole a wonder of warmth.


    OH ! I've tried wet sanding with a nice single malt. Problem with that is my dog keeps licking the floor and then starts stumbling all over. Ya just never know where she's going to end up. Hell, last time I wet sanded with Scotch she flew up into a tree.....I had to fly up there and get her down....and then, there is the next morning...…..WHY DOES THE SCOTCH ALWAYS HAVE TO BE GONE !...da bat

  25. #22
    Senior Member frankb's Avatar
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    Straight panels? What panels???
    FFR MK4 #8317, 393 Cleveland, Lunati VooDoo solid roller, CHI 3V heads and intake, TKO 600, Std roadster seats, 8.8 3.55 diff, 17" Halibrand replica wheels, Ford "Magnetic Metallic", silver ghost stripe. (Sold 10/16/21)

  26. #23
    Senior Member Presto51's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by j.miller View Post
    OH ! I've tried wet sanding with a nice single malt. Problem with that is my dog keeps licking the floor and then starts stumbling all over. Ya just never know where she's going to end up. Hell, last time I wet sanded with Scotch she flew up into a tree.....I had to fly up there and get her down....and then, there is the next morning...…..WHY DOES THE SCOTCH ALWAYS HAVE TO BE GONE !...da bat
    Uhh Jeff it's call EVROPATION. As if you didn't know already, sheeze you can take the man out of the paint shop, but you just can't take the fumes out of him

    Ron
    "May you be in heaven a full half hour before the Devil knows you're dead"

  27. #24
    JohnK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Taz Rules View Post
    Too late. The rabbit hole has been opened.
    I see that my work here is done...

  28. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taz Rules View Post
    Too late. The rabbit hole has been opened.

    So who likes to sand with Scotch? A nice Aberlour A'Bunadh or a 21 yr old MacCallan's does the sole a wonder of warmth.
    With my modest budget and what 21-year Macallan costs, I'd have to prime the car with rattle-can lacquer. But 18 year Macallan would go with my 18 year DP402, and leave enough cash for DP40 and some reducer. And as much as it pains me to think about it, I could afford Miller and all fresh DP40, DP402 and reducer, and probably a few mixing cups and a tack cloth too.

  29. #26
    Senior Member Taz Rules's Avatar
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    OH ! I've tried wet sanding with a nice single malt. Problem with that is my dog keeps licking the floor and then starts stumbling all over. Ya just never know where she's going to end up. Hell, last time I wet sanded with Scotch she flew up into a tree.....I had to fly up there and get her down....and then, there is the next morning...…..WHY DOES THE SCOTCH ALWAYS HAVE TO BE GONE !...da bat
    Yeah. I kind of use the single malt to lubricate myself, not the car. OK, that came out sounding bad. Nothing like a "rub and buff" joke that I know is coming... (oof.. there I go again!)
    Clearly I need less scotch. Or much, much, much more.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob McCrea View Post
    With my modest budget and what 21-year Macallan costs, I'd have to prime the car with rattle-can lacquer. But 18 year Macallan would go with my 18 year DP402, and leave enough cash for DP40 and some reducer. And as much as it pains me to think about it, I could afford Miller and all fresh DP40, DP402 and reducer, and probably a few mixing cups and a tack cloth too.
    That could be why I can't afford a kit yet. Maybe I should go to an 18 YO single malt. Or (gasp!) Glenfiddich. No. I'm not THAT desperate!
    Or, if you take enough of that 21 yo Macallan to DaBat, maybe HE provides you with the activator, reducer, primer, paint, and maybe even some labour!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jacob McCrea View Post
    With my modest budget and what 21-year Macallan costs, I'd have to prime the car with rattle-can lacquer. But 18 year Macallan would go with my 18 year DP402, and leave enough cash for DP40 and some reducer. And as much as it pains me to think about it, I could afford Miller and all fresh DP40, DP402 and reducer, and probably a few mixing cups and a tack cloth too.


    DUDE !!! WHY ON EARTH ARE YOU STILL TALKING ABOUT PRIMER ! Blah, blah blah DP....blah, blah, blah 18yrs...….. Now listen , I'm only gonna say this once...…"YOU" posted a question (remember this is all on YOU)....we went to work on it. We took it apart and put it back together and we FOUND YOUR ANSWER ! (it's what we do) We never know where it will lead but as long as it leads to YOU sending ME a bottle of 21-year Macallan then we have done our job well. A simple "Thank You" to the other gentlemen is sufficient and you are most welcome. I will PM my address so you can ship the scotch....being the holidays and package theft as it is I will totally understand If I never receive it. It is, after all, the thought that counts. Well ! I think our job here is done.....LETS PACK IT UP BOYS. We have a Christmas party at "Miss Mollies House of Ill Repute" to attend …..TO THE PARTY !!!!...da bat

  31. #28

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    [QUOTE=Taz Rules;350270]Yeah. I kind of use the single malt to lubricate myself, not the car. OK, that came out sounding bad. Nothing like a "rub and buff" joke that I know is coming... (oof.. there I go again!)
    Clearly I need less scotch. Or much, much, much more.

    Yeah, no comment. The least I could do with that would lead to a stern talking too from Mr. Hodgekins….The most, well, that would get me exiled....and you know what happens when I get left alone too long....yep, I tear up the back yard, knock over the dog and get the trash can pregnant....nasty bit of business that one...da bat

  32. #29
    Senior Member frankb's Avatar
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    Yipes!!!
    FFR MK4 #8317, 393 Cleveland, Lunati VooDoo solid roller, CHI 3V heads and intake, TKO 600, Std roadster seats, 8.8 3.55 diff, 17" Halibrand replica wheels, Ford "Magnetic Metallic", silver ghost stripe. (Sold 10/16/21)

  33. #30
    Not a waxer Jeff Kleiner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by j.miller View Post
    ...and you know what happens when I get left alone too long....yep, I tear up the back yard, knock over the dog and get the trash can pregnant....nasty bit of business that one...da bat
    You and me Brother! When Mrs. Captain O ring comes home after having been away and finds me wearing this shirt she knows $hi+ got real.





    Jeff

  34. #31
    Senior Member Walt's Avatar
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    Jeff, i have sent you a PM!
    FFR8237 Donor build 89 GT , MK 4 , T5 , 17 " hallibrands 9" front 10.5 rear ,4×4 headers stainless mufflers, dual chrome roll bars, coil overs all 4,A/C and heater , soft top, 3:55 gears.

  35. #32

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    Well, this progress has occurred and I'm just about to start shooting the Slick Sand. Panel fitting and body work were surprisingly free of problems, and this 3M Platinum Plus filler is much better than anything I remember working with.

    I set aside the old DP-LF but did pull a +20-year-old quart of original-formula DP40 and catalyst off the shelf. After a good shake I painted a spot on the shop garbage can. Cured like it was delivered last week, and nearly unsandable, exactly as I remember, although I'm not sure I'll have the courage to use it on the inner doors and spoiler.

    In any case, can anyone comment on whether 1.5 gallons of ready-to spray base coat is enough for a Type 65? I'm NOT painting the underside of the hood, and the stripes, etc. will be the same as the Snap-On Type 65-R. My guess is I'd be cutting it close but at $350 per quart of Ducati red Deltron base I don't want to buy an extra one!

    Also, can anyone comment on the current selection of PPG clears? I have sprayed the old 2021 and the Delta intended for commercial vehicles, and was told something with a 4000 number is the very best automotive clear these days. Any guidance is appreciated.

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  36. #33
    Not a waxer Jeff Kleiner's Avatar
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    3 quarts might be cutting it a bit close...as a reference I use just a few ounces shy of a full gallon to do a roadster WITH stripes and about a gallon+pint WITHOUT stripes however this includes both sides of the doors hood and trunk.

    I've been using PPG's Vibrance Clear (VC5700) on some but keep coming back to my old reliable 5 Star #5125. Vibrance+activator is over $500/gallon and 5 Star+activator is $200. No money out of my pocket either way because customers pay materials. I just like the stuff; It lays down really nice and buffs up a little better than the Vibrance...understand that's for me...I don't claim to be a buffing master like Brother Miller! I've had 5 Star on cars for over 8 years and they still look fresh. The downside, which isn't one for me but would definitely be for a "shoot it in the morning and deliver it in the afternoon" production shop, is that it sets a little slow so you need to give it a few days before cut & buff.

    Jeff

  37. #34

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    Thank you sir, I do appreciate it. Looks like I am buying a gallon of base, maybe more, since the door jambs, roof and rear panel on the coupe are a lot of area that's not present on the roadster.

    I doubt one of the similar reds I see on new Hondas and Chryslers is any cheaper but I'll check. Hopefully I can scavenge some white base coat from the old body shop. I'll post a few photos as this progresses. With any luck I'll be spraying clear coat by end of August, assembling in fall and winter, and bringing it out to the London Cobra Show next year - a 10 year build for better or worse!

  38. #35
    Not a waxer Jeff Kleiner's Avatar
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    I use PPG's Shopline Plus (same as Omni Plus, just exclusive to their Platinum distributors) for a lot of cars, particularly non-metallics. You might want to look at what your formula would run. I'd bet that you buy a full gallon of Plus for less than 3 quarts of DBC.

    Jeff

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    Yep, get the gallon and seal in a recommended gray tone to help save material. I'm using Vibrance.

  40. #37

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    A gallon it is. All the other reds I like are coming in around $1,400 per gallon of DBC with tax. The Shopline Plus was about $500 per gallon of the new Honda and Jeep red base (no Ducati red available) but per the salesman doesn't cover as well as DBC. But at nearly 1/3 the price it would have to be really bad to not save money. We'll see.

    Regardless, I've got a light coat of epoxy on the doors and hood, and now 2 coats of Slick Sand on the hood. So far I can see why people like this stuff; it builds well for the money. I'm spraying the outsides of the doors with Slick Sand today or tomorrow, and the body is coming off the chassis for Slack Sand next week. Looks like this will get sealer and paint by end of August.

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