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Thread: Will it fit? 351 + Performer RPM Intake

  1. #1
    Top Notch Builder P100DHG's Avatar
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    Will it fit? 351 + Performer RPM Intake

    I am ordering my Roush 427SR with Fuel Injection, it is built off (bored and stroked from) a 351W. Factory Five is saying the Performer RPM intake is too high and will not clear the hood. They are recommending are saying a Performer intake will clear. EFI should give more clearance than a carburetor...

    Does anyone have any experience fitting a 351 under the hood and what intake and air cleaner did you use?

    I do not want to alter the hood.
    Gen 3 65 Coupe #138 - Order Date: Aug 2018 - Delivered: Feb 2019 - Engine: Roush 427SRE - P100DHG 65 Coupe Build Thread

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    Steve >> aka: GoDadGo
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    My friend Jerry has a Gen-1 Type 65 with a 392-W Stroker (351 Windsor) and he's running a Torker-II intake and Holley four barrel.
    It is the same height as the Standard Performer (4.1"), but since it is a single plane manifold it breaths pretty well in the upper range of the engine.
    The Standard Performer's range is from idle to 5,500 RPM while the Torker-II RPM range of 2,500 to 6,500 RPM, but remember that these ranges are based on a 351-W.
    For a 427-W, I'd strongly suggest the single plane intake because you're not going to have any issues with needing any more bottom end torque.
    Give the folks at Rouch a call since they are the Engine Guru's and I'm just a guy that sleeps at Holiday Inns from time to time.

    Torker-II Link:

    https://www.summitracing.com/parts/e...view/make/ford

    Standard Peformer Link:
    https://www.summitracing.com/parts/e...view/make/ford

    Good Luck From The Dark-Dart Side!
    Last edited by GoDadGo; 12-12-2018 at 09:48 PM.

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    Top Notch Builder P100DHG's Avatar
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    Roush puts on the Performer RPM but FFR says it’s too tall. FFR says use a Performer and Roush says not a problem I’m just going to lose some HP and really I want that 500hp dyno on the engine. Why 500? Because it’s a $25,000 engine transmission package. At 510 with the Performer RPM I don’t have much room to lose HP and still be above 500.

    I’m going to investigate the height of the carb vs EFI and see if maybe the EFI is more compact I can get the clearance from that.
    Gen 3 65 Coupe #138 - Order Date: Aug 2018 - Delivered: Feb 2019 - Engine: Roush 427SRE - P100DHG 65 Coupe Build Thread

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    Not a waxer Jeff Kleiner's Avatar
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    We just had this conversation with another builder a couple of weeks ago. If you're using a Performer RPM Air Gap intake you'll probably have issues with an oval filter touching the hood. I've gotten in 3 or 4 cars with the 351 block/Air Gap/Oval combination and here's what happens:



    A 14" round filter with a drop base and Extreme top will clear and breathe better than the restrictive oval.



    Trying for additional clearance on top by using lower mounts will likely result in the pan being below the frame rails.

    On a related note, some owners have found that the RPM Air Gap intake creates some drivability issues at low RPMs and changing to the lower profile Performer solved both the hood clearance problem and resulted in a happier engine on the street (going back to the points that go-dad-go mentions regarding RPM ranges). Just something to think about...

    Jeff

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  6. #5

    Steve >> aka: GoDadGo
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    Here are some numbers to contemplate regarding your manifold choice.

    Also, a throttle Body F.I. System will likely negate some the tuning issues over the carb.

    351 CID @ 7,300 RPM = 741 CFM @ 100% Volumetric Efficiency
    ...................................667 CFM @ 90% V/E

    383 CID @ 6,685 RPM = 741 CFM @ 100% Volumetric Efficiency (My Air Pump of Choice)
    ...................................667 CFM @ 90% V/E

    427 CID @ 6,000 RPM = 741 CFM @ 100% Volumetric Efficiency
    ...................................667 CFM @ 90% V/E

    Talk to the folks that are building your engine and let them know how you want to drive it when you make your choice.

    Good Luck From The Dark-Dart Side!

    PS: Putting a peppy 427 in these cars is like killing a fly with s sledge hammer instead of a fly swatter.
    Last edited by GoDadGo; 12-13-2018 at 09:04 AM.

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    Top Notch Builder P100DHG's Avatar
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    So the EFI vs Carb answer came in. Roush got back to me with the following:

    “I just measured the height on the carb and the EFI throttle body. From the mounting surface on the baseplate to the mounting surface for the air cleaner, there is only a 2mm difference in height with the EFI throttle body being slightly shorter. Certainly not enough difference to make up for a ĺ” difference in the height of the manifold.”

    I’m going to go with the Performer it’s what FFR says will work, they know best. It will cost a little HP but what can I do. Also if it smooths out the idle even better. Should be putting down my deposit shortly.
    Gen 3 65 Coupe #138 - Order Date: Aug 2018 - Delivered: Feb 2019 - Engine: Roush 427SRE - P100DHG 65 Coupe Build Thread

  8. #7
    Top Notch Builder P100DHG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by godadgo View Post

    ps: Putting a peppy 427 in these cars is like killing a fly with s sledge hammer instead of a fly swatter.

    i love this!!!
    Gen 3 65 Coupe #138 - Order Date: Aug 2018 - Delivered: Feb 2019 - Engine: Roush 427SRE - P100DHG 65 Coupe Build Thread

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    Top Notch Builder P100DHG's Avatar
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    Just to throw another question out there. The Performer's range: idle to 5,500 RPM --- means....? Does that mean the engine can rev to 6000rpm at all? or just won't be efficient and produce optimal performance?

    Just for reference I am ordering the engine to look like this (this is the R with a single plane intake so the intake won't be the same as SR I am ordering with the performer intake but it's just a picture to get an idea of the overall look):

    427-R-lg-530px.jpg
    Last edited by P100DHG; 12-13-2018 at 12:36 PM.
    Gen 3 65 Coupe #138 - Order Date: Aug 2018 - Delivered: Feb 2019 - Engine: Roush 427SRE - P100DHG 65 Coupe Build Thread

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    I had an early Gen 1 Coupe (#031) with a 422" Windsor. I ended up going with the Edelbrock Performer manifold with a 770 Holley Street Avenger carb. It cleared the hood with a K&N filter top air cleaner by about 3/8 ". This dual plane manifold really gave great driveability. Low and mid range torque were outstanding and it pulled strong up to about the advertised 5,500 rpm. Previous to this setup I had the Torker 2 single plane manifold and it was very weak below 2,500 rpm with poor low rpm driveability. My motor was about 425 hp. I had numerous compliments from folks that have driven my coupe on how easy (and fun) it was to drive compared to many replicas they had driven.

    Garry

    ps just saw your last post ... you can rev the engine as high as you want, but performance begins to drop off above 5,500 rpm.
    I sure miss my coupe!

    F5R1004503SP 2004 Challenge Car, 331 Stroker

    Coupe # 031, 422" Windsor stroker by Southern Automotive (Dash autographed by Peter Brock)***SOLD***
    Unique 427 Roadster, 482" Aluminum FE by Southern Automotive***SOLD***

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    Not a waxer Jeff Kleiner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by P100DHG View Post
    Just to throw another question out there. The Performer's range: idle to 5,500 RPM --- means....? Does that mean the engine can rev to 6000rpm at all? or just won't be efficient and produce optimal performance?
    Absolutely it will rev higher, just sacrificing a bit of power at the higher RPM vs. the intake that shows an operating range of 1,500-6,500 or whatever. Really, unless you only intend to use the car on the drag strip you'll find it will be much more pleasant to drive and easier to live with with the usable RPM range down lower. >5,000 RPM isn't where the car will live if you're going to drive it on the street. Go back and read Garry's response again then thank us later

    Jeff

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    I have a Dart 363 with a performer RPM intake on it Fitech injection and a 3 inch high air cleaner. This is in a Gen 3 coupe. The air cleaner is a small oval one mounted sideways and I had to trim some of the hood liner near the back for it to fit, I have about 3/4 inch clearance. The 302 based block I have is shorter than the 351 based engine you are getting. Hope this helps.
    David W
    Mkll 4874 built in 2004
    Gen 3 coupe #16 under construction

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    Steve >> aka: GoDadGo
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    Let your driving style dictate your intake choice:

    > If you are going to race the car, or drive it like you stole it, then go with the single plane.
    > If you are simply going to drive and enjoy the car, then go with the dual plane for the improved manners.

    Also, Garry Bopp & Jeff Kleiner are Factory Five Aficionados!
    Any opinion they give you will be based on Fact, not Bench Racing Fiction.
    Last edited by GoDadGo; 12-13-2018 at 03:14 PM.

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    Senior Member DavidW's Avatar
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    Yes it will fit, but you cant use an oval air cleaner you must use a drop base round air cleaner.

    I wanted the endurashine finish so the air gap was my only option. I had to modify my hood.




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    David W,

    FYI, this is posted in the coupe forum ... and the coupe hood clearance is a lot different than a roadster. BTW, your engine bay looks awesome!

    Garry
    I sure miss my coupe!

    F5R1004503SP 2004 Challenge Car, 331 Stroker

    Coupe # 031, 422" Windsor stroker by Southern Automotive (Dash autographed by Peter Brock)***SOLD***
    Unique 427 Roadster, 482" Aluminum FE by Southern Automotive***SOLD***

  16. #15
    Senior Member DavidW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garry Bopp View Post
    David W,

    FYI, this is posted in the coupe forum ... and the coupe hood clearance is a lot different than a roadster. BTW, your engine bay looks awesome!

    Garry
    Oooops, hahaha. I guess I should read a little more into the post, sorry and thanks!

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    Top Notch Builder P100DHG's Avatar
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    Here is my order putting down my deposit before Christmas hopefully:

    Engine Quote.png

    I'll update my build thread once I place my deposit and it's official
    Gen 3 65 Coupe #138 - Order Date: Aug 2018 - Delivered: Feb 2019 - Engine: Roush 427SRE - P100DHG 65 Coupe Build Thread

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  20. #17
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    check the oil pan spec, the front sump won't fit in the Gen 3 coupe frame there are some diagonal frame members at the front.
    David W
    Mkll 4874 built in 2004
    Gen 3 coupe #16 under construction

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    Top Notch Builder P100DHG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Williamson View Post
    check the oil pan spec, the front sump won't fit in the Gen 3 coupe frame there are some diagonal frame members at the front.
    David W
    They are changing it for the Daytona specific oil pan but I will check that for sure. Any recommendations?
    Gen 3 65 Coupe #138 - Order Date: Aug 2018 - Delivered: Feb 2019 - Engine: Roush 427SRE - P100DHG 65 Coupe Build Thread

  22. #19
    Senior Member KDubU's Avatar
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    I had a 351w with the performer RPM intake and as others have stated, you need to go with a drop base and round filter. It will get you more air going this route than a thinner oval which you canít fit anyways.
    Kyle

    Complete Kit pickup 09/05/2015, 351w, QF680, 3.55, 3-Link, 15" Halibrands with MT's, Painted Viking blue with Wimbledon white stripes on 03/15/2017.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GoDadGo View Post

    PS: Putting a peppy 427 in these cars is like killing a fly with s sledge hammer instead of a fly swatter.
    Quote Originally Posted by P100DHG View Post
    i love this!!!

    It means with most any street tire you're pretty much traction limited through fourth gear.

    How fast do you want to be going + still spin the tires at will?

    Just a word to the wise...

  24. #21

    Steve >> aka: GoDadGo
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike223 View Post
    It means with most any street tire you're pretty much traction limited through fourth gear.
    How fast do you want to be going + still spin the tires at will?
    Just a word to the wise...
    Mike223's point is very valid.

    In Test Mode I'm finding that wheel spin starts at following RPM's at roughly 1/2 throttle on 285/40-17" Nitto 555's.

    1st Gear 1,700 RPM
    2nd Gear 2,600 RPM
    3rd Gear 3,500 RPM


    Currently I've got my rev limiter set at 4,000 which is doing a good job at keeping me out of the ditches.
    Also, my engine is a good bit calmer since it's only a 383 SBC, which probably makes 50-100 fewer ponies.

    https://youtu.be/PCngiKoopkA
    Last edited by GoDadGo; 12-14-2018 at 09:38 AM.

  25. #22
    Top Notch Builder P100DHG's Avatar
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    David you saved my ***! Definitely going to need a rear sump.



    Iím glad I posted that invoice
    Last edited by P100DHG; 12-15-2018 at 02:52 PM.
    Gen 3 65 Coupe #138 - Order Date: Aug 2018 - Delivered: Feb 2019 - Engine: Roush 427SRE - P100DHG 65 Coupe Build Thread

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    Steve >> aka: GoDadGo
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    Quote Originally Posted by P100DHG View Post
    Definitely going to need a rear sump.
    Where God & Chevrolet Intended The Oil Sump-Ith To Be-Ith!

    .....Have A Great Build & Get Ready For Your Life To Change In A Very Good Way!

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    I have the same Roush 427SR with the Edelbrock Performer RPM. I changed out the carb with a Fitech EFI the same height as the Holly carb. My car is still under construction and I'm having the same question. When I set the body on and hood it just barely fits. However I have the 289 kit with the integrated hood scoop. The top photo is without the weather seal on the car which would raise up the body a bit.

    I've heard of some guys using solid engine mounts which drops the engine assembly down a bit. I think they do that for better side pipe angle? That could solve the potential clearance issue.




  28. #25

    Steve >> aka: GoDadGo
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vspeeds View Post
    I have the same Roush 427SR with the Edelbrock Performer RPM. I changed out the carb with a Fitech EFI the same height as the Holly carb. My car is still under construction and I'm having the same question. When I set the body on and hood it just barely fits. However I have the 289 kit with the integrated hood scoop. The top photo is without the weather seal on the car which would raise up the body a bit.

    I've heard of some guys using solid engine mounts which drops the engine assembly down a bit. I think they do that for better side pipe angle? That could solve the potential clearance issue.





    A 289 FIA is way, way, way cooler than a 427 MK-4 Roadster with a 383, even one with a 6-Speed!


    • Also, you obviously know the 1st rule of street racing very well!
    • That Rule Is To Lie, Lie, Lie & Lie Some More!
    • Keep Calm & Wrench On Brother!
    Last edited by GoDadGo; 12-14-2018 at 11:55 PM.

  29. #26
    Top Notch Builder P100DHG's Avatar
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    Okay here is revised invoice



    The oil pan we are now using is a Canton Racing 15-690. Is this acceptable?
    Gen 3 65 Coupe #138 - Order Date: Aug 2018 - Delivered: Feb 2019 - Engine: Roush 427SRE - P100DHG 65 Coupe Build Thread

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    Quote Originally Posted by P100DHG View Post

    The oil pan we are now using is a Canton Racing 15-690. Is this acceptable?

    I never found anything to like about "double hump" oil pans.

    I am not proud to admit that I am on my third 351w oil pan - trying to keep up oil pressure under any/all/most g-forces...


    Here is the only one I would buy again:


    https://kevkoracing.com/collections/...pan-302-engine


    The one I bought is rear sump - (I would double check what current production is)...

    I think it's as good as you get short of going to a dry sump system.

    Canton probably has something similar.


    Good Luck.

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  32. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by GoDadGo View Post


    A 289 FIA is way, way, way cooler than a 427 MK-4 Roadster with a 383, even one with a 6-Speed!


    • Also, you obviously know the 1st rule of street racing very well!
    • That Rule Is To Lie, Lie, Lie & Lie Some More!
    • Keep Calm & Wrench On Brother!
    Thats funny Steve because I think the SBC with a 6 speed is way way cooler. Remember Carrol Shelby went to Chevy first.

  33. #29
    Top Notch Builder P100DHG's Avatar
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    Per Mike223's post, Roush suggested

    "The 15-690 has an internal scraper and a slosh baffle. If you believe G-forces are going to be an issue, we can use a Canton 15-694. It has a diamond shaped box on the sump floor with four trap doors designed to keep oil near the pickup tube during hard cornering in addition to the scraper and slosh baffle."

    Bob at Canton confirmed we should do the 15-694. Same profile better oil control. Bob from Canton said the 15-690 should never be raced it will have issues with exposing the pick up in hard corning, acceleration or braking.

    Disclaimer from Canton: we need to know if the block has 4 bolt caps on all 5 caps (this is not compatible with the 15-694) or if 4 bolt caps are on the 3 center caps and the front and rear caps are 2 bolt (this is compatible with the 15-694). (This sounds completely "greek to me"). Same would be true for the 15-690 but Bob from Canton insisted I put this in my update.

    Very nice people over there at Canton

    Mike223 THANK YOU FOR YOUR EXCELLENT POST! SAVED MY *** AGAIN!

    BTW guys at Roush super receptive to the specific advice and I really enjoy the conversation I am having with them over email. What an education for me. I am speaking with Mark Yagelo, what a great guy! Can't expect them to know every car so this help from the FFR Forums is fantastic


    Roush Responded and said:

    "We use the Dart Sportsman block which is 4-bolt on 2, 3 & 4 and 2-bolt on 1 & 5. Pan fitment is not a concern."
    Last edited by P100DHG; 12-17-2018 at 05:58 PM.
    Gen 3 65 Coupe #138 - Order Date: Aug 2018 - Delivered: Feb 2019 - Engine: Roush 427SRE - P100DHG 65 Coupe Build Thread

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    Quote Originally Posted by P100DHG View Post
    Per Mike223's post, Roush suggested

    "The 15-690 has an internal scraper and a slosh baffle. If you believe G-forces are going to be an issue, we can use a Canton 15-694. It has a diamond shaped box on the sump floor with four trap doors designed to keep oil near the pickup tube during hard cornering in addition to the scraper and slosh baffle."

    Bob at Canton confirmed we should do the 15-694. Same profile better oil control. Bob from Canton said the 15-690 should never be raced it will have issues with exposing the pick up in hard corning, acceleration or braking.

    Disclaimer from Canton: we need to know if the block has 4 bolt caps on all 5 caps (this is not compatible with the 15-694) or if 4 bolt caps are on the 3 center caps and the front and rear caps are 2 bolt (this is compatible with the 15-694). (This sounds completely "greek to me"). Same would be true for the 15-690 but Bob from Canton insisted I put this in my update.

    Very nice people over there at Canton

    Mike223 THANK YOU FOR YOUR EXCELLENT POST! SAVED MY *** AGAIN!

    BTW guys at Roush super receptive to the specific advice and I really enjoy the conversation I am having with them over email. What an education for me. I am speaking with Mark Yagelo, what a great guy! Can't expect them to know every car so this help from the FFR Forums is fantastic


    Roush Responded and said:

    "We use the Dart Sportsman block which is 4-bolt on 2, 3 & 4 and 2-bolt on 1 & 5. Pan fitment is not a concern."

    Glad you found it helpful.

    For the record, the Kevko pan also has a diamond shaped trap / sump - pretty fascinating if you ever get a look in there. (I suspect all the RR pans are probably copying one another / extremely similar)

    Looking from the outside - the object here is you trap the (extra) oil (9 quarts) down in the wings (oil pan side extensions) - the diamond shaped baffle (middle) has trap doors that let oil flow in but not out - most g-forces will force oil into the trap (from the pan extensions).


    One key thing is that *someone* needs to fit the pickup to the pan (in the center of the diamond) - the base of the pickup needs to be ~3/8" off the bottom of the pan (as installed, with gasket) - it usually requires a little hammer / vise / crowbar adjustment.


    I'm certain the guys at Roush know exactly what to do with it (but I'm too ocd to let anyone else do that for *me*, without at least checking it).


    I guess you could call that "trust but verify", or just learn + do it all + check it all yourself (lol)...


    Good Luck.
    Last edited by mike223; 12-17-2018 at 07:41 PM.

  35. #31
    Top Notch Builder P100DHG's Avatar
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    So the 351W based 427 from Roush engine has been built. I have my Coupe and I am waiting on some external factors before I have it shipped. I was reading some current threads and realize I might need a mid-shift in the coupe. I asked Dan at FFR and he said, "it would be ideal though you can make rear shift work." What I would like is for the hole that is precut in the transmission tunnel cover to line up with that shifter on the transmission. If that means a mid shift or a rear shift I don't care. What I don't want to do is modify the frame or the sheet metal. Does someone here have the answer? Thank you so much!
    Gen 3 65 Coupe #138 - Order Date: Aug 2018 - Delivered: Feb 2019 - Engine: Roush 427SRE - P100DHG 65 Coupe Build Thread

  36. #32
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    go mid shifter with the Ford small block TKO combination.
    David W
    Mkll 4874 built in 2004
    Gen 3 coupe #16 under construction

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  38. #33
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    If you have a TKO600, there are 4 different locations the shifter can reside on that transmission.
    https://youtu.be/sYmMSCrIRaA
    ~ Bruce
    MK4 #8189
    400hp 351w, TKO600, 3.27 3-link

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