Engine Stand Fitment Issues

[cv2065]

Hey guys. Was pulling my Blueprint 427 out of the crate tonight to place on stand so I can bolt up the transmission. Here's the engine.



And here's the SBF stand from Speedway:



Ran into an issue when trying to bolt the engine to the stand as on one side, there was a drain plug that kept the stand from aligning with the two bolts, and on the other side, it was close to aligning with the holes, but no cigar. Had to put back in the crate which was disappointing to say the least!

So the question is, with this being a Dart block, what floor stand can properly bolt up?

[GoDadGo]

CV2065,

The way I mated my engine (Dart SBC) to my transmission was a little unorthodox but it worked well.
I strapped my transmission to an aluminum step bench (100% Level) and hung my motor from my chain-fall using my engine leveler.
The chain fall let me get the engine to the exact height, the leveler got the dangle-angle right and the step bench kept the transmission super stable.

Step Bench: https://www.homedepot.com/p/Werner-3...P-20/100662616

We've used this method to install V8 Engines in boats with Mercruiser I/O Drives and it worked well to couple my engine to my ZF 6-Speed Gear Box.
You may be able to do the same or something similar because it allows you to wiggle things around pretty easily.
Yes, my method is unorthodox, but then again my entire build is unorthodox.

Good Luck & Merry Christmas!

PS: You can see my Bayou Boy Set Up when we pulled the Leaky Block earlier this year.

https://youtu.be/Vhbftk4AP4k

Steve

[BadAsp427]

Hmmmm I guess you will just have to trade me engines... I'm positive my block will fit your engine stand with no problems. I'll just set yours into my engine bay to hold onto it for awhile.

[cv2065]

CV2065,

The way I mated my engine (Dart SBC) to the transmission was a little unorthodox but it worked well.
I strapped my transmission to an aluminum step bench (100% Level) and hung my motor from my chain-fall using my engine leveler.
The chain fall let me get the engine to the exact height, the leveler got the dangle-angle right and the step bench kept the transmission super stable.

Step Bench: https://www.homedepot.com/p/Werner-3...P-20/100662616

We've used this method to install V8 Engines in boats with Mercruiser I/O Drives and it worked well to couple those engines to the I/O drive units.
You may be able to do the same because it allows you to wiggle things around pretty easily.
Yes, my method is unorthodox, but then again my entire build is unorthodox.

Good Luck & Merry Christmas!

PS: You can see my Bayou Boy Set Up when we pulled the Leaky Block earlier this year.

https://youtu.be/Vhbftk4AP4k

Steve

Nice setup Steve! I don't think a chain fall is in my future with the way my garage doors swing up, but appreciate the input!!

[cv2065]

Hmmmm I guess you will just have to trade me engines... I'm positive my block will fit your engine stand with no problems. I'll just set yours into my engine bay to hold onto it for awhile.

Don't know Carl...You've got a Dart block as well. You can send me your polished intake though...

[GoDadGo]

Nice setup Steve! I don't think a chain fall is in my future with the way my garage doors swing up, but appreciate the input!!

Get one and hang it from your engine hoist.
Those suckers really make lifting increments very precise.
Good Luck & Watch Your Pinkies, Toes Too!

[BadAsp427]

Don't know Carl...You've got a Dart block as well. You can send me your polished intake though...

Nope, I have a standard 302 block.... He He... when can I come and swap it out for you? Just trying to help!!!

[Bob Cowan]

Don't be afraid to modify the stand a little. Cut a hole where the drain plug is, or remove the drain plug for now. If the holes don't line up exactly, drill a new hole or oval one of the holes.


I prefer to leave the engine on the hoist, and set the transmission on something like a motorcycle jack.

[cv2065]

Don't be afraid to modify the stand a little. Cut a hole where the drain plug is, or remove the drain plug for now. If the holes don't line up exactly, drill a new hole or oval one of the holes.


I prefer to leave the engine on the hoist, and set the transmission on something like a motorcycle jack.

Thanks Bob. Looks like that's what I'll have to do. Just surprised on the engine stand thing as the Dart blocks are so popular. I think I can grind down the side of one to fit and then pull the plug off the other side and grind down the middle of the leg as well. The welded area to the top support is close so will have to elongate the holes if there is still not enough room.

[NAZ]

What's keeping you from using spacers between the engine stand mounting tabs and the block? Seems from your photo that simply raising the engine on the stand would provide clearance without modifying anything. Or if that's not an option I have another idea how you can space the outriggers out farther to clear -- again without modifying the stand. But the spacers could even be a stack of flat washers or larger size nuts -- stuff you probably have laying around.

[cv2065]

What's keeping you from using spacers between the engine stand mounting tabs and the block? Seems from your photo that simply raising the engine on the stand would provide clearance without modifying anything. Or if that's not an option I have another idea how you can space the outriggers out farther to clear -- again without modifying the stand. But the spacers could even be a stack of flat washers or larger size nuts -- stuff you probably have laying around.

Thanks NAZ. I thought about that but wasn't sure if that would somehow screw up the integrity of the stand. I know a stack of washers would work on the one side. The side with the drain plug not so sure as its pushed out pretty far, but certainly can give it a shot. What's your idea #2?

[NAZ]

Don't worry about spacing the engine higher in the stand, the reality of it is that engine is not really going to apply enough force on the fasteners or block or stand that would be of concern -- just not that much more moment for the little elevation you would need.

But the idea I had about spacing the outriggers outboard (making the footprint wide enough to clear the drain plug) involves using cold rolled flat bar the length of the stand mounting tab and wide enough to get the spacing you need. Don't know how much wider you need but for this example let's assume 2". Imagine a length of 1/4"x4" flat bar and looking from the top (plan view) you would have four holes, two along one side and two directly opposite along the other side spaced laterally at 2" center to center and space lengthwise the same as your mounting tab holes. Simply bolt one edge to the mounting tab and the other edge on the block and that flat bar will space your outrigger 2" farther outboard than it is now. Again, this is not enough additional moment to cause a strength issue as the engine is not that heavy and the additional moment is spread between two fasteners.

[cv2065]

So, I figured out what the issue is with these Dart blocks. If you take a look at this picture (sorry its upside down), right behind the mounting bolt is a triangular design that flares out from the block. This is behind all 4 mounting areas and keeps the stand from going flush enough to thread the bolts into the holes.



So, two things. Anyone see an issue with cutting small squares out of the mounting head of the stand? I'm talking about the area of the head of the stand right behind the mounting hole that flaps over and goes flush with the block once mounted. If I cut a 1/2" by 1/2" square out of that, right behind the bolt hole, it should go right over those triangular flares.



The second issue would be the side with the drain plug. I could pull the plug and cut the same squares in the head, but I'd need a little more clearance as the block protrudes out right behind the plug about a 1/2". I could use some spacers to get clearance as the block tapers the opposite direction the further you go down. Only issue here is that I'd have to do the same to the other side for balance, even though it doesn't need it.

[cv2065]

Don't worry about spacing the engine higher in the stand, the reality of it is that engine is not really going to apply enough force on the fasteners or block or stand that would be of concern -- just not that much more moment for the little elevation you would need.

But the idea I had about spacing the outriggers outboard (making the footprint wide enough to clear the drain plug) involves using cold rolled flat bar the length of the stand mounting tab and wide enough to get the spacing you need. Don't know how much wider you need but for this example let's assume 2". Imagine a length of 1/4"x4" flat bar and looking from the top (plan view) you would have four holes, two along one side and two directly opposite along the other side spaced laterally at 2" center to center and space lengthwise the same as your mounting tab holes. Simply bolt one edge to the mounting tab and the other edge on the block and that flat bar will space your outrigger 2" farther outboard than it is now. Again, this is not enough additional moment to cause a strength issue as the engine is not that heavy and the additional moment is spread between two fasteners.

Thanks for the ideas NAZ. You gave me some as well.

[Jeff Kleiner]

CV,
The root of the issue is the Dart block, not the stand. You're going to find the same interference with the Dart block's webbing when you go to install the motor mounts and will have to do some cutting/grinding on them so that they will mate properly with the pads on the block. Best to address it now rather than when you have it all hanging in the engine bay and find that it's not fitting.

Jeff

[edwardb]

CV,
The root of the issue is the Dart block, not the stand. You're going to find the same interference with the Dart block's webbing when you go to install the motor mounts and will have to do some cutting/grinding on them so that they will mate properly with the pads on the block. Best to address it now rather than when you have it all hanging in the engine bay and find that it's not fitting.

Jeff

X2 on Jeff's post. The extra webs that the Dart block has around the motor mount bosses will interfere with your motor mounts when you try to install them. This has been questioned and talked about several time in the past, and I experienced it myself on my #7750 build. If you're using the typical Energy Suspension motor mounts, a couple of accurately placed cuts with a die grinder will provide the needed clearance. The mounts are plenty strong and the relief cut won't hurt them at all. Just don't cut your block!

[cv2065]

Thanks for the heads up Jeff and Paul. I’ll look back and review some of the threads on the topic. I’m almost ready to drop her in!

[Murd]

What others have said about mating the transmission while the engine is hanging from the engine hoist is how I also did mine, twice now.

[cv2065]

Hey guys. Just to follow back up on this in case anyone else runs into it in the future. I was able to solve by spacing out the stand from the block as NAZ had suggested. I used two pieces of 1" welding stock (1/4" thickness each) and 8" long, drilled holes to match the stand and then installed. I had to remove the drain plug on the other side and notch out both spacers to accommodate the drain plug boss and it all buttoned up with 1.5" bolts.

Thanks again for the help and ideas.

[BadAsp427]

Great job... that's a beast.... Can't wait to hear that first start...

[phileas_fogg]

Nice work, and now you've had practice for notching the engine mounts.


John

[cv2065]

Nice work, and now you've had practice for notching the engine mounts.


John

Ha...that's exactly what I was thinking!

[CraigS]

I don't see any of the OP's pictures.

[BEAR-AvHistory]

What others have said about mating the transmission while the engine is hanging from the engine hoist is how I also did mine, twice now.

+ another one any number of times. Actually till this thread never thought about using an engine stand.

[Vspeeds]

CV,
The root of the issue is the Dart block, not the stand. You're going to find the same interference with the Dart block's webbing when you go to install the motor mounts and will have to do some cutting/grinding on them so that they will mate properly with the pads on the block. Best to address it now rather than when you have it all hanging in the engine bay and find that it's not fitting.

Jeff

That webbing is the issue with the Dart blocks. I used washers as spacers for the stand. For the actual engine mounts, I ground off a little of the webbing on the block itself so the mounts sit properly. It was scary but I said what the heck. After the build school in Michigan, I went to my engine builder (Roush) in Livonia and they said they just grind away the webbing. So since they do it I did it as well despite a lot of other people who say notch the engine mount or get different mounts altogether.

[edwardb]

That webbing is the issue with the Dart blocks. I used washers as spacers for the stand. For the actual engine mounts, I ground off a little of the webbing on the block itself so the mounts sit properly. It was scary but I said what the heck. After the build school in Michigan, I went to my engine builder (Roush) in Livonia and they said they just grind away the webbing. So since they do it I did it as well despite a lot of other people who say notch the engine mount or get different mounts altogether.

I guess it depends on who you ask. I asked my engine builder for #7750 (FordStrokers in Chicago, a very well respected Ford SBF builder) whether I should cut the block or the mounts to clear the webs on my Dart block. There was brief silence on the phone. Kind of surprised I asked I guess. He asked would you prefer to cut an $1800 block with no going back, or $100 motor mounts that can be easily replaced. And then said something about Dart added the webs for a reason. It was a short conversation. Roush has obviously been at this a while too and have my respect. But I'd sure lean towards the mounts and not the block, as I said in my previous post.

[NAZ]

Cutting the block may not cause you an issue unless your engine is producing lots of torque but IMO best practice would be to make the motor mounts fit the block. But trimming away some of the support if not done correctly can create stress risers that could cause fractures over time. It may seem easier to carve on the block but easy is not always best. I believe Paul's engine builder gave him some sound advice.

[Vspeeds]

I guess it depends on who you ask. I asked my engine builder for #7750 (FordStrokers in Chicago, a very well respected Ford SBF builder) whether I should cut the block or the mounts to clear the webs on my Dart block. There was brief silence on the phone. Kind of surprised I asked I guess. He asked would you prefer to cut an $1800 block with no going back, or $100 motor mounts that can be easily replaced. And then said something about Dart added the webs for a reason. It was a short conversation. Roush has obviously been at this a while too and have my respect. But I'd sure lean towards the mounts and not the block, as I said in my previous post.

Sorry guys, even though I decided to grind the block, i should have added that grinding the block is not the prudent way to approach this. My wife always tells me that im stubborn and i have to do things my own way. Like NAZ and edwardb said youre better off making the motor mounts fit the block. Roush is a big corporation, bigger than i thought they were and they could afford to grind away the block. Im just taking a gamble.

Cv2065 those blueprint engines sure are are nice.

[cv2065]

Does anyone by chance have any pictures of a modified engine mount for the Dart block? I was holding my Energy mounts up to the block and looks like they may fit without modification but can’t completely tell until it’s off the stand

[edwardb]

Does anyone by chance have any pictures of a modified engine mount for the Dart block? I was holding my Energy mounts up to the block and looks like they may fit without modification but can’t completely tell until it’s off the stand

Don't have any pictures. But it's not as much as you might think. At least when I did mine a few years ago. Basically you'll find the bolts won't line up just right and the mount won't sit flat on the block bosses. The way I did mine was I used a grease pencil to mark the areas on the block where it appeared to interfere, pressed the motor mount into the location, and then used a die grinder to relieve the locations indicated. Couple times until they fit. You could also use a cut-off wheel or even a file with the mount in a vise. Although I like stuff with a trigger myself. Two spots on each mount as I recall, but don't quote me on that. Make sure to check by bolting into place and confirming the mounts go all the way down. It didn't take a lot and the mounts are plenty strong.

[NAZ]

When faced with an issue like yours I typically use a cardboard cutout to make a pattern from. On more difficult pieces this may take a few try to get it perfect but this one would seem to be easy. Once you have a pattern that fits the block with holes in the proper locations it's simply a matter of transferring that pattern to your motor mounts to see where to trim. Align the mounting holes on the motor mount with the holes in your pattern and trace around the pattern.

To get your holes in the right place on the pattern use a small ball peen hammer (the ball end) to gently tap the cardboard around the diameter of the hole and it will make an outline in the cardboard. With experience you can continue gently tapping and it will act like a paper punch and cut out the hole. Best to practice this on some other bracket if this is new to you.

Tip: make one hole at a time and once the first hole is made use a bolt to help locate the cardboard while you make the second hole.

I should have said poster board not cardboard. Cardboard makes it sound like I use a corrugated material but what I typically use is not corrugated.