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Thread: Rear wheel opening

  1. #1
    ggunter's Avatar
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    Rear wheel opening

    I have a dilemma, not the end of the world but I think more than one person here has dealt with this. The body sits on the car very well with all the positioning points lined up and able to use the original under rocker original screw point to attach the body to the frame. My tire to wheel well opening in the front is very well centered but the rear is too far rearward and it looks odd. I have adjustable torque arms but there isn't an inch worth of adjustment on them and thats assuming there is enough left on the trans tail shaft to move the rear and in forward. Anyone have any thoughts on this or is this the nature of the beast.screenshot.png

  2. #2
    Senior Member CDXXVII's Avatar
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    Please provide your particular suspension setup. IRS? 3-Link

    Have you set your pinion angle yet?

    Adjustable Lower Control Arms?

    Can you take a photo to reference how your body sits at the rear of the door opening from inside the cockpit out?

    F5R #7841: Anniversary Edition MK4, Ford Racing 427, Edelbrock EFI, Gas-N Pipes, Stainless Headers, TKO600, 3.31 Moser 3-Link, 17" Halibrands

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    Senior Member FLPBFoot's Avatar
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    Yep. Looks pretty much normal. I think rear wheel well size was one of the items changed in the 25th year body. They closed up the opening size and made the rear tire more centered in the opening.

    Steve
    2nd MK4 #10639 received 3-19-23. Wife's version. Street Snake - IRS, Willwoods, no roll bars, no hood scoop, no stripes, Blue Print EFI 306 with AOD trans, and under car exhaust. Ford Eruption Green with saddle leather interior.
    1st build - Mk4 Roadster #9319, received 4-10-18. IL registration 8/6/19. Moser 8.8. 3 Link. Wilwood brakes. Blue Print 427, Holley 750, TKO 600, 0.64 OD. Paint Dec 2020. Ruby Red with Carbon Flash Black metallic stripes.

  4. #4

    Steve >> aka: GoDadGo
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    Quote Originally Posted by ggunter View Post
    I have a dilemma, not the end of the world but I think more than one person here has dealt with this. The body sits on the car very well with all the positioning points lined up and able to use the original under rocker original screw point to attach the body to the frame. My tire to wheel well opening in the front is very well centered but the rear is too far rearward and it looks odd. I have adjustable torque arms but there isn't an inch worth of adjustment on them and thats assuming there is enough left on the trans tail shaft to move the rear and in forward. Anyone have any thoughts on this or is this the nature of the beast.screenshot.png
    I shortened my wheelbase and it turned out very well, but I'm running a 3-Link which made it easy.

    https://youtu.be/IGYtX-3p7xk
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  6. #5
    Not a waxer Jeff Kleiner's Avatar
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    I know from previous posts that you're running a 3 link so here are 2 important questions:

    1) Have you set the pinion angle? If you have not and the upper link is too long it'll roll the top of the rear axle back pivoting from the fixed lower control arms.

    If the answer to #1 is yes then:

    2) Is it a Moser rear end? They built some with the mounts clocked incorrectly (reportedly somewhere between 5 and 80 of 'em!) which results in the wheels being too far rearward. They are supposed to be notifying customers who may have been affected.

    Jeff

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  8. #6
    ggunter's Avatar
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    It is a Moser rear. The pinion angle is set. I do have adjustable lower torque arms and yes I can move everything forward maybe 3/4" which will help but needs to probably go 1.5" to be centered. There is a lot of adjustment on the top torque arm but I have to offset anything I do up top with the lower arms and I don't think there is enough there. The Moser brackets would make sence because Iv'e looked at a lot of other MKIV's and they look much more centered.

  9. #7
    ggunter's Avatar
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    And yes the body is 1/4" forward of the striker bolt bkt.

  10. #8

    Steve >> aka: GoDadGo
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    Quote Originally Posted by ggunter View Post
    It is a Moser rear. The pinion angle is set. I do have adjustable lower torque arms and yes I can move everything forward maybe 3/4" which will help but needs to probably go 1.5" to be centered. There is a lot of adjustment on the top torque arm but I have to offset anything I do up top with the lower arms and I don't think there is enough there. The Moser brackets would make sence because Iv'e looked at a lot of other MKIV's and they look much more centered.
    My shortened lower control arms are 16 7/8" if it helps.
    https://youtu.be/PCngiKoopkA
    Good Luck!

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  12. #9
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    Like J Kleiner and GoPapaGo stated....If you have adjustable UCL then make sure they are set up correctl. Quite a bit of movement can happen via these alone. I am running a 4 link so It was a lot tougher with my Lower control arms..Ended up buying some custom length ones (with adjustability) from Spohn and so far am quite happy with these. I ordered them about 3/4" shorter than my FF Aluminum forged ones. Have nor really test driven the car with these on but was able to move everything forward so the wheel appear centered in the wheel well.

  13. #10
    Senior Member CraigS's Avatar
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    If you don't find out anything about your axle you could go w/ shorter lower arms w/ rod ends.
    https://www.breezeautomotive.com/sho...ntrol-arm-kit/
    You can also find generic rods at Summit, Jegs, Speedway etc and could order them by length to get exactly what you need.
    FFR MkII, 408W, Tremec TKO 500, 2015 IRS, DA QA1s, Forte front bar, APE hardtop.

  14. #11
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    My car came with the cast aluminum torque arms from FFR, I had bought the adjustable arms from Breeze and ran a bolt through the ends of the arms sitting side by side to adjust the the same length. I had my car up on the lift last night looking at things and basically I have about 3/4" adjustability to shorten the arms, but I can also cut some of the hex shaped tube to shorten if necessary to get more adjustability. I bought lazers and the front end equipment for alignment and spent a lot of time setting the thrust angles and pinion angles and aligning the front end to make sure the car steered correctly and handled well which it does. The only thing I don't like ts the cosmetics from the wheel well opening. This weekend I'll shorten the wheelbase with the torque arms and reset the pinion angle and thrust angle and see what happens. Wonder if I should contact Moser about the mounting bkts before I do all this?

  15. #12
    Not a waxer Jeff Kleiner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ggunter View Post
    My car came with the cast aluminum torque arms from FFR, I had bought the adjustable arms from Breeze and ran a bolt through the ends of the arms sitting side by side to adjust the the same length....
    Although that may not be all of the problem it would certainly account for at least part of it—-the FFR LCA geometry has the arms angled while Breeze’s arms get set up to be parallel. The length from point A (chassis mount) to point B (axle bracket) will be greater when it is at a diagonal... / ... than if it is square and perpendicular... I ... The parallel Breeze lowers would need to be shorter than the FFR arms to locate the axle in the same position. Sounds like you have enough adjustability to shorten the lower arms and bring the axle forward.

    Cheers,
    Jeff

  16. #13

    Steve >> aka: GoDadGo
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    Quote Originally Posted by ggunter View Post
    Wonder if I should contact Moser about the mounting bkts before I do all this?
    Steve's Stupid Questions:

    What is your wheelbase?
    Is your pinion angle A-Okay?
    Is it at or around 90" at the present time?
    How far does the yoke go into the transmission?
    How close is the Banana Bracket to the Panhard Bar Support Brace?
    Do you have adequate clearance or does it look like the Banana Bracket will hit the Support Brace?

    The bottom line is I'd contact MOSER before cutting and/or modifying anything, but check these issues first.

    Good Luck & You Will Overcome This Issue!
    Last edited by GoDadGo; 01-21-2021 at 12:30 PM.

  17. #14
    ggunter's Avatar
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    Thanks Jeff, I saw that you could set the breeze arms up to be parallel which I did otherwise they were angled like you said. Right now my wheel base is at 90.5". I know if I can get an 1" farthur forward it would go a long way to making the car look better. I believe I can get another inch of slip yoke into the trans. Looking at pictures of a lot of other cars I see this is more prevalent than I thought. Doesn't look right but there are a bunch of them out there. The problem with me is I will look at that every time I look at the car. It's like looking at a three legged dog. Your eyes go right to it.

  18. #15
    RJD's Avatar
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    Informative thread. Hmmmm...not meaning to highjack the thread, but I'm wondering if I have one of the wrongly clocked Moser rear ends. My pinion angle is good but my banana bracket is right up against the pan-hard bar support bracket.
    MKIV complete kit w/powder coating and cut outs, serial #9189 delivered 10/10/17, first start - 10/5/18, legal - 10/08/20. Blueprint 306 w/Holley Sniper EFI, TKO 600, power steering, Breeze fan shroud, trunk cubby, & engine compartment battery kit, CNC brake reservoirs, RT turn signal & gas pedal, mechanical throttle linkage, METCO safety loop, GASN side pipes, drop trunk, dual chrome roll bars, vintage gauges, glove box, custom center console, cup holders, and speakers.

  19. #16
    ggunter's Avatar
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    Mine is also very close but I don't think its hitting

  20. #17
    Papa's Avatar
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    I have the Moser 3-link (ordered from FFR with my kit) and the forged lower control arms and this is what my car looks like from the side as a point of reference:

    Last edited by Papa; 01-21-2021 at 02:29 PM.
    My Build Thread: http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...ter-Build-9754
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  22. #18
    Senior Member D02G's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Kleiner View Post
    I know from previous posts that you're running a 3 link so here are 2 important questions:

    1) Have you set the pinion angle? If you have not and the upper link is too long it'll roll the top of the rear axle back pivoting from the fixed lower control arms.

    If the answer to #1 is yes then:

    2) Is it a Moser rear end? They built some with the mounts clocked incorrectly (reportedly somewhere between 5 and 80 of 'em!) which results in the wheels being too far rearward. They are supposed to be notifying customers who may have been affected.

    Jeff
    I got one of the ones that was clocked wrong. A complete PIA, but moser replaced it and made the process easy.
    MK IV - #9586, Gen 2 Coyote, TKO 600

  23. #19
    ggunter's Avatar
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    I see on Papa's car if your run a string line up from the center of the axle it centers itself in the center of the wheel opening, even though it may have a little more opening in the front the wheel still looks centered. The center of my wheel looks like its at ten oclock. I have adjustable lower arms but I onlt have 1/2" adjustment to move forward. I think I need 1.5" forward to make it look right. DO2G, how did you find out yours was clocked wrong? And which brackets were wrong?

  24. #20
    RJD's Avatar
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    More info - I assumed based on the forum discussion it was the upper link being clocked wrong. Here's the body of an e-mail I received from Moser this morning when I asked them to check if I had one of the bad rear-ends.

    " I discussed this with my production manager regarding the upper link being in the wrong position on the housing, and to our knowledge we have never had that be an issue. We use a jig to locate all of the brackets and have never received a call regarding the upper link being in the wrong position on the housing. The only thing that we have had issues with on our jig was for the lower control arm bracket on the driver side which we have since fixed, but never have had issues with the upper link. Is there any way you could provide pictures and or dimensions regarding what seems to be off?"
    Last edited by RJD; 01-22-2021 at 12:46 PM.
    MKIV complete kit w/powder coating and cut outs, serial #9189 delivered 10/10/17, first start - 10/5/18, legal - 10/08/20. Blueprint 306 w/Holley Sniper EFI, TKO 600, power steering, Breeze fan shroud, trunk cubby, & engine compartment battery kit, CNC brake reservoirs, RT turn signal & gas pedal, mechanical throttle linkage, METCO safety loop, GASN side pipes, drop trunk, dual chrome roll bars, vintage gauges, glove box, custom center console, cup holders, and speakers.

  25. #21
    ggunter's Avatar
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    I sent an Email to Dan at FFR he asked for some measurements and pics, waiting to here back from him.

  26. #22
    Senior Member rich grsc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RJD View Post
    More info - I assumed based on the forum discussion it was the upper link being clocked wrong. Here's the body of an e-mail I received from Moser this morning when I asked them to check if I had one of the bad rear-ends.

    " I discussed this with my production manager regarding the upper link being in the wrong position on the housing, and to our knowledge we have never had that be an issue. We use a jig to locate all of the brackets and have never received a call regarding the upper link being in the wrong position on the housing. The only thing that we have had issues with on our jig was for the lower control arm bracket on the driver side which we have since fixed, but never have had issues with the upper link. Is there any way you could provide pictures and or dimensions regarding what seems to be off?"
    I think the issue was the lower links being incorrect?
    Mrk III, 331 stroker, Borla stack injection, T5, 3:55 IRS, Power steering and brakes. Kleiner body & paint

  27. #23
    ggunter's Avatar
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    Here are some pics of my brackets, honestly nothing looks out of place.screenshot.pngIMG_6676.jpg

  28. #24
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    Forgive the crooked pic, sometimes I get them staight and sometimes not.

  29. #25
    Papa's Avatar
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    Here is what my rear axle looked like before installing anything other than the brakes:

    My Build Thread: http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...ter-Build-9754
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  30. #26
    Papa's Avatar
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    I don't have anything that really shows details of it in the car, but maybe these will help?











    My Build Thread: http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...ter-Build-9754
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  32. #27
    RJD's Avatar
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    Mr. Kleiner may have alluded to an answer in one of the above posts ...

    With the lower control arms being fixed, perhaps adjusting the upper link to shorten it would cause the axle assembly to rotate forward, resulting in the axle being in more forward position.
    Last edited by RJD; 01-22-2021 at 06:14 PM.
    MKIV complete kit w/powder coating and cut outs, serial #9189 delivered 10/10/17, first start - 10/5/18, legal - 10/08/20. Blueprint 306 w/Holley Sniper EFI, TKO 600, power steering, Breeze fan shroud, trunk cubby, & engine compartment battery kit, CNC brake reservoirs, RT turn signal & gas pedal, mechanical throttle linkage, METCO safety loop, GASN side pipes, drop trunk, dual chrome roll bars, vintage gauges, glove box, custom center console, cup holders, and speakers.

  33. #28

    Steve >> aka: GoDadGo
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    I had a similar issue so here is what I did.

    > The stock lower control arms are 17 5/8".
    > I installed a shortened set which measures 16 7/8".
    > The Upper Link was able to be adjusted inward without being altered.
    > I moved the upper shock mounts reward by playing with a few spacers.
    > This gave me a better shock angle and eliminated any shock interference issues.
    > A custom driveshaft had to be produced since my car is Dark Side Powered.
    > My rear wheels are now very properly centered and look great.

    The result is an altered wheelbase of..89 3/8"..so it can be done with a little goofing around as long as the axle mounts aren't too far off...Since I had a pinion angle issue and my rear wheels sat too far aft in the wheel wells, I figured why not correct it since I always had issues with the way the rear wheels sat within the fender wells anyway...I also lowered and cross-bolted my roll bars so now they sit on the frame for improved safety plus I prefer the look of the lowered bars as well.

    Pre-Body Work Mock Up:
    https://youtu.be/uLmHEoWTEHg

    Final Assembly Walk Around:
    https://youtu.be/9WEe6-wdNtA


    Good Luck!
    Last edited by GoDadGo; 01-23-2021 at 08:31 AM.

  34. #29
    Senior Member CraigS's Avatar
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    Another option is to build up the front of the fender opening. Fortunately the forward lip angles inward substantially towards the bottom so you can move it's edge rearward in side view w/o it sticking out too far.
    FFR MkII, 408W, Tremec TKO 500, 2015 IRS, DA QA1s, Forte front bar, APE hardtop.

  35. #30
    ggunter's Avatar
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    Yes RJD you can adjust the top link and roll it forward but you then change your pinion angle. I have my pinion angle set now so the only way to correct is to move the entire assy. forward while keeping the pinion angle the same. I sent an Email to Dan at FFR and basically he saw the adjustable lower arms and said that's the problem. I told him they are the same length as the cast arms I got from them...No response so far. Side note: Papa, what kind of lift do you have? I replacing mine soon and I want one that gets really low to the ground to clear the pipes. does yours do that well. I have to run up on pieces of 2x12 in the front to get the frame up to let the arms get under the frame. Maybe I should start another thread on this to see what everyone is using. Mine is a 40 year old Rotary that the seals are starting to leak.

  36. #31
    Papa's Avatar
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    Ggunter,

    My lift is a Bendpak XPR-10AS-LP. The LP stands for low profile, but because of the slope of the floor and the shims used to plumb/level the lift, I still have to raise the car a couple of inches to get the pads under the pipes. I use four of these:

    https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00UHLPES0...ing=UTF8&psc=1

    Last edited by Papa; 01-23-2021 at 10:09 AM.
    My Build Thread: http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...ter-Build-9754
    (Most viewed Roadster build thread on this forum!)

    Delivered: 6/17/2017
    First Start: 12/30/2017
    Completed: 12/7/2019
    Legal: 1/30/2020

    Member of the Mile-Hi Cobra Club
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  37. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by ggunter View Post
    Yes RJD you can adjust the top link and roll it forward but you then change your pinion angle. I have my pinion angle set now so the only way to correct is to move the entire assy. forward while keeping the pinion angle the same.
    Since I have the same issue as you plus my upper link is contacting the pan hard bar support, and I have vacation next week, I'm going to give rolling the top link and axle forward a shot. I don't mind re-setting the pinion angle. I'll let you know how it goes.
    Last edited by RJD; 01-23-2021 at 11:10 AM.
    MKIV complete kit w/powder coating and cut outs, serial #9189 delivered 10/10/17, first start - 10/5/18, legal - 10/08/20. Blueprint 306 w/Holley Sniper EFI, TKO 600, power steering, Breeze fan shroud, trunk cubby, & engine compartment battery kit, CNC brake reservoirs, RT turn signal & gas pedal, mechanical throttle linkage, METCO safety loop, GASN side pipes, drop trunk, dual chrome roll bars, vintage gauges, glove box, custom center console, cup holders, and speakers.

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  39. #33
    ggunter's Avatar
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    Well I relocated the rear forward today. I had to shorten the adjustable lower arm tubes by1/2” this gave me plenty of adjustment to center the tire in the opening, of course I had to reset the thrust angle and pinions angle but I won’t be looking at that three legged dog. Seemed like a lot of hoopla for a few hours work.

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  41. #34

    Steve >> aka: GoDadGo
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    Quote Originally Posted by ggunter View Post
    Well I relocated the rear forward today. I had to shorten the adjustable lower arm tubes by1/2” this gave me plenty of adjustment to center the tire in the opening, of course I had to reset the thrust angle and pinions angle but I won’t be looking at that three legged dog. Seemed like a lot of hoopla for a few hours work.
    Great Job & Glad It Worked Out!

  42. #35
    RJD's Avatar
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    Well, rolling the axle forward also took a lot of back and forth with adjustments to the upper link, ride height and pinion angle, but I went from a wheelbase of 91.5 inches to 90.5 inches and my upper link is off the pan hard support bracket.

    Before:
    7B8C2627-D94F-4294-A910-7E6DBE0A67C4.jpeg

    After:
    95503311-5161-4653-AC22-0ADFA313323E.jpeg
    Last edited by RJD; 01-27-2021 at 04:16 PM.
    MKIV complete kit w/powder coating and cut outs, serial #9189 delivered 10/10/17, first start - 10/5/18, legal - 10/08/20. Blueprint 306 w/Holley Sniper EFI, TKO 600, power steering, Breeze fan shroud, trunk cubby, & engine compartment battery kit, CNC brake reservoirs, RT turn signal & gas pedal, mechanical throttle linkage, METCO safety loop, GASN side pipes, drop trunk, dual chrome roll bars, vintage gauges, glove box, custom center console, cup holders, and speakers.

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  44. #36

    Steve >> aka: GoDadGo
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    Quote Originally Posted by RJD View Post
    Well, rolling the axle forward also took a lot back and forth with adjustments to the upper link, ride height and pinion angle, but I went from a wheelbase of 91.5 inches to 90.5 inches and my upper link is off the pan hard support bracket.

    Before:
    7B8C2627-D94F-4294-A910-7E6DBE0A67C4.jpeg

    After:
    95503311-5161-4653-AC22-0ADFA313323E.jpeg
    Fantastic!

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  46. #37
    ggunter's Avatar
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    Looks good RJ, do you have the adjustable lower arms.

  47. #38
    ggunter's Avatar
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    Go Dad Go, where did you get your side view mirrors. They look good, are they as functional as they look?

  48. #39
    RJD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ggunter View Post
    Looks good RJ, do you have the adjustable lower arms.
    No - just the fixed ones provided in the kit.
    MKIV complete kit w/powder coating and cut outs, serial #9189 delivered 10/10/17, first start - 10/5/18, legal - 10/08/20. Blueprint 306 w/Holley Sniper EFI, TKO 600, power steering, Breeze fan shroud, trunk cubby, & engine compartment battery kit, CNC brake reservoirs, RT turn signal & gas pedal, mechanical throttle linkage, METCO safety loop, GASN side pipes, drop trunk, dual chrome roll bars, vintage gauges, glove box, custom center console, cup holders, and speakers.

  49. #40
    Senior Member Lickity-Split's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RJD View Post
    Well, rolling the axle forward also took a lot of back and forth with adjustments to the upper link, ride height and pinion angle, but I went from a wheelbase of 91.5 inches to 90.5 inches and my upper link is off the pan hard support bracket.

    Before:
    7B8C2627-D94F-4294-A910-7E6DBE0A67C4.jpeg

    After:
    95503311-5161-4653-AC22-0ADFA313323E.jpeg
    The improvement is dramatic. Easily worth twice the effort expended.

  50. Thanks RJD thanked for this post

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