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Thread: First track night rodeo! UPDATE

  1. #1
    Senior Member broku518's Avatar
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    First track night rodeo! UPDATE

    Hello.

    So I am prepping again...this time for a track night.
    The event is on 2mil track, 11 turns.

    I will be in novice group. We will be rotating every 20min with more experienced drivers.

    Just looking for some pointers
    - don't play superman
    - don't do anything stupid
    - have fun!

    Anything else?

    Thanks.
    M
    Last edited by broku518; 02-20-2019 at 09:20 AM.
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    What do you have for an oil pan?

    Set up video so you can review your oil pressure under heavy braking + cornering afterwards.

  3. #3
    Not a waxer Jeff Kleiner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by broku518 View Post
    Hello.

    So I am prepping again...this time for a track night.
    The event is on 2mil track, 11 turns.

    I will be in novice group. We will be rotating every 20min with more experienced drivers.

    Just looking for some pointers
    - don't play superman
    - don't do anything stupid
    - have fun!

    Anything else?

    Thanks.
    M
    That's a great starting point! Beyond that keep an eye on your mirrors and be courteous about letting others by. I'm assuming you'll be at PBIR? I was on track there a few years ago---you'll find that it's very addictive! Do they offer instruction? If so definitely grab an instructor to ride along and offer pointers.

    Jeff

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    Senior Member NiceGuyEddie's Avatar
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    Tape up your nose if you don't already have a clear bra!

  5. #5
    Senior Member broku518's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Kleiner View Post
    That's a great starting point! Beyond that keep an eye on your mirrors and be courteous about letting others by. I'm assuming you'll be at PBIR? I was on track there a few years ago---you'll find that it's very addictive! Do they offer instruction? If so definitely grab an instructor to ride along and offer pointers.

    Jeff

    Hi Jeff.
    Yes, it is PBIR track. It is a monthly thing with full instructions and ride along.
    Life is short, so start living it.
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    #1) Right pedal goes down as the wheel straightens out. No 100% throttle unless the wheel is straight. #2) Don’t run out of asphalt, time and ideas all at once. #3) have fun, drive in your limits and don’t forget to smile. You’ll be hooked on track time in no time.
    Mk4, Moser M88 rear end, Eaton truetrak, Craft Racing 461 Windsor, MMR pro trans, Glenn’s 1,000 hp cobra fuel system and lots of other parts.

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  9. #7
    Senior Member broku518's Avatar
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    OK, so, well, hm. That was some experience!

    I came, drove, spun out and recover, no one got hurt and I drove home in the same car.

    Just to preface this, I have 0 track experience in track racing. This was my first time. The event is very well organized. I attended my novice driver meetings and got on the road. I saw the lap from 'no passing' session. When the first 'hot' session started I went fast. It was too fast to brake and slowdown for the next turn. I felt the rear end coming around and I spun around (I was doing well over 100 on straight away and should have entered the turn around 60, I did around 80). Luckily the GT behind me saw that and stopped.

    I realized this isn't about going fast, rather smooth. This isn't about trying to catch the other guy. This isn't about being the fastest guy.
    THIS is about ME. After I realized this, and it sunk in my brain everything was fine. I was going around, taking turns (I really enjoyed how tight you can take the winding turns) I watched the other guys race line, how they take the turns. I follow the cones. I paid attention on track and gave everyone the point by (even the track official gave me a thumb UP for being so predictable and attentive).

    I completed 3 hot sessions, plus couple no passing sessions, total 100 min of a track time.

    I know, I am nowhere near to call myself track racer, but I am learning. I have some videos and pics, but will post later, still processing.

    Thanks,
    Broku518
    Life is short, so start living it.
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    I'm not a track racer by any means, but when I finish mine I want to take it to the track and have someone teach me how to drive. One thing I've heard is 1. Be predictable. 2. Slow is smooth, and smooth is fast.

  12. #9
    Senior Member kobra01's Avatar
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    Always get an instructor if available. They usually know a lot more about this stuff than we do.
    If your running street tires you cannot ask the tires to do more than 1 thing at a time. Brake in a straight line hard enough to make the turn, let off the brake and make your entry into the corner (slow in), after apex on exit start applying power (fast out). Be smooth.
    MK4 Roadster # 8548, Ford Performance X427, TKO 600, 8.8 3 Link, Paint by Jeff Miller, Suspension setup by Frank Maslowski I.E.427

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    Senior Member CraigS's Avatar
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    I am really glad it worked out for you but for others who may read this thread, I'd recommend a season of autocross first. Not impossible to have an accident but, in 10 yrs, I have only seen 4.
    FFR MkII, 408W, Tremec TKO 500, 2015 IRS, DA QA1s, Forte front bar, APE hardtop.

  14. #11
    Senior Member broku518's Avatar
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    Life is short, so start living it.
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  15. #12

    Steve >> aka: GoDadGo
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    I bet you now realize that "Snakes Bite" from time to time.
    This was obviously the best place to learn this lesson.
    Thank You So Much For Sharing This Video!
    You hopefully taught us a lesson.

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    Senior Member wareaglescott's Avatar
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    Looks fun. Glads you enjoyed yourself.
    What sort of tech inspection did they give the car? Were there any surprises or requirements on the inspection you were not anticipating?
    MK4 #8900 - complete kit - Coyote, TKO600, IRS - Delivered 6/28/16 First Start 10/6/16 Go cart - 10/16/16 Build completed - 4/26/17 - 302 days to build my 302 CI Coyote Cobra - Registered and street legal 5/17/17
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  17. #14
    On a roll Al_C's Avatar
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    Love the video! Envious of the weather. Your former "neighborhood" is rather chilly and icy... It would be really easy to spin out like that here now, irrespective of speed.
    Mk IV Roadster - #8650 - delivered 7-17-2015 - first start 7-28-2018 - first go-kart 10-13-2018 - licensed and on the road 9-9-19: body/paint completed 3-17-2020.
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  18. #15
    Senior Member broku518's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wareaglescott View Post
    Looks fun. Glads you enjoyed yourself.
    What sort of tech inspection did they give the car? Were there any surprises or requirements on the inspection you were not anticipating?
    Hi Scott,
    You get an inspection sheet and do the car inspection yourself. There isn't anyone going around and checking things for you. This site points out some obvious things: https://www.tracknightinamerica.com/...nd-regulations
    When you get on site, they check your helmet safety rating, you get a sticker and wrist band for your run group.

    I was concerned about the 'open car' rule so I emailed them before hand. They only wanted to make sure the roll bar is 'real' and not just for decoration.
    Life is short, so start living it.
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  19. #16
    Senior Member broku518's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoDadGo View Post
    I bet you now realize that "Snakes Bite" from time to time.
    This was obviously the best place to learn this lesson.
    Thank You So Much For Sharing This Video!
    You hopefully taught us a lesson.
    Yes sir! Much respect for this car. I use to think I can use more power, but not any longer. I need more seat time
    Life is short, so start living it.
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  20. #17
    Senior Member broku518's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Al_C View Post
    Love the video! Envious of the weather. Your former "neighborhood" is rather chilly and icy... It would be really easy to spin out like that here now, irrespective of speed.
    Hello Al! brrr, you can always come down here
    Life is short, so start living it.
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  21. #18
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    Martin,

    Thanks for sharing! Man that thing came around on you fast.

    I'm curious about your comment on the roll bar. The tech considered the stock FFR roll bar "real"? That's surprising.

    Dave
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  22. #19
    Senior Member broku518's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Papa View Post
    Martin,

    Thanks for sharing! Man that thing came around on you fast.

    I'm curious about your comment on the roll bar. The tech considered the stock FFR roll bar "real"? That's surprising.

    Dave
    Hi Dave,
    That was more for me. I read their rules and wanted to make sure I won't be turn around for some open car violation.
    With this DIY car, no one really knows what those parts are. They wanted to make sure it was designed by FFR.
    Life is short, so start living it.
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  23. #20
    Senior Member Avalanche325's Avatar
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    Trail braking a Cobra is not usually a good thing. Very little to gain and a whole lot to lose. I guess you found that out for only the price a pair of underwear. LOL

    Looks like you had a good time. Thanks for the video.

  24. #21
    Senior Member broku518's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Avalanche325 View Post
    Trail braking a Cobra is not usually a good thing. Very little to gain and a whole lot to lose. I guess you found that out for only the price a pair of underwear. LOL

    Looks like you had a good time. Thanks for the video.
    Thanks for pointing this out. I was going too fast and was late on braking. It was more like a oh s*** braking.

    I had a blast, no doubt!
    Life is short, so start living it.
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  25. #22

    Steve >> aka: GoDadGo
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    Broku,

    Accelerate, Turn & Stop!

    I good friend of mine is a part time vintage racer, part time driving instructor and full time 71 year old juvenile delinquent.
    The best advice he's given me, which I've taken to heart, is that my tires can only do one thing well at any given moment.
    His other useful tidbit is to make sure you are silky smooth as you enter and exit the apex or bad things happen.
    He said once you understand these simple facts your driving will improve on a Grand Scale.

    Good Luck & Loved The Video!

    Steve

    https://youtu.be/hsvEx4vDVdg
    https://youtu.be/SKrs8fYZ8Ro
    Last edited by GoDadGo; 02-21-2019 at 12:58 PM.

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  27. #23
    Not a waxer Jeff Kleiner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoDadGo View Post
    ...The best advice he's given me, which I've taken to heart, is that my tires can only do one thing well at any given moment...
    The classic "Traction Circle" which I refer to often when instructing. This guy is kind of dry and bumpy with his delivery but gets the point across. You have to also keep in mind that although his example shows a "square" (with equal forces on both axis) it can be a rectangle as well (with more on one axis than the other). The trouble comes when the forces intersect outside the circle!


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  29. #24
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    For the experts - watching the video, it looks like you may be able to coast through that corner, but as you come in with too much brake, with the front bias that these have, it forces the rear to try and pass the front, so in this situation the car would have to be traveling straight forward or the rear is going to try and come around??

    Does the weight shift forward enough when braking that the rear just gets too light?

    Or what caused this and how do you manage with out the rear pass the nose syndrome?
    Mk3.1 347 AFR 205cc Heads A9L EFI siemens deca 60lb injectors MSD 6AL ignition Vortech V-3 3 Link PS/PB

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  30. #25
    Senior Member broku518's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Just puttering View Post
    For the experts - watching the video, it looks like you may be able to coast through that corner, but as you come in with too much brake, with the front bias that these have, it forces the rear to try and pass the front, so in this situation the car would have to be traveling straight forward or the rear is going to try and come around??

    Does the weight shift forward enough when braking that the rear just gets too light?

    Or what caused this and how do you manage with out the rear pass the nose syndrome?
    Hi,
    I am no expert by any means, by I was there.

    For the record, I didn't prep the car before the race whatsoever. I grabbed a beach chair and a turkey sandwich and went racing that afternoon.

    This happened in my first lap. I didn't check nor adjusted my tire pressure. I was late braking, plus I was braking in turn.

    After that I made sure I finished braking before entering the turn and that I was in 3rd gear. I had no issues at all.
    I focused on being smooth and be in the optimal race line. (After while I was able to feel if I took the turn the wrong way)
    Last edited by broku518; 02-21-2019 at 04:05 PM.
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  31. #26
    Senior Member SSNK4US's Avatar
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    Your learning man..... all you can do is get better
    Great job!! You didn’t break or hurt anything or anyone so as long as you had fun and a big ole smile on your face that’s all that matters!!!

    Kurt
    If everything seems under control, you’re just not going fast enough....

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  32. #27

    Steve >> aka: GoDadGo
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    Check out this video regarding Trail Braking not Trail Blazing!

    https://youtu.be/tvcuGoVhpxw

    Good Luck & Happy Motoring!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Just puttering View Post
    For the experts - watching the video, it looks like you may be able to coast through that corner, but as you come in with too much brake, with the front bias that these have, it forces the rear to try and pass the front, so in this situation the car would have to be traveling straight forward or the rear is going to try and come around??

    Does the weight shift forward enough when braking that the rear just gets too light?

    Or what caused this and how do you manage with out the rear pass the nose syndrome?
    Not an expert but let me tell you what I think I see:

    No "active" weight transfer, because I don't see any "abrupt" speed changes.

    The weight is already transferred, because he's still dragging the brakes.

    As soon as the car starts rotating through the corner - centrifugal force takes over and the 53% (or whatever) mass that's behind the center of gravity is still there, but part of that weight is on the front (due to trail braking), and the rear tires do not have enough traction.


    GoDads' video is "solid gold".

    Study anywhere he talks about transferring weight between front + back with the brake pedal (especially 8:00 to 11:00 minutes).


    You don't generally need much help getting a powerful rear weight biased car to rotate - you need help getting it to stop rotating.

    Now brake in a straight line, use the steering wheel (alone) to set up rotation, and transfer weight between the front and back with the throttle (not the brake) as needed for traction.


    That is exactly what these cars were originally built to do.


    Practice it somewhere "safe" (racetrack / autocross).
    Last edited by mike223; 02-21-2019 at 07:01 PM.

  34. #29
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    This is a great thread, there is a video i saw where someone went down the street a ways and then for no apparent reason, did a 180 and ended up on the left side of the road! I always wondered what he did so as not to duplicate this. I may have just got my answer! Wanting to go to some track nights this year, this thread may have just saved me from replacing body parts. Car and personal!!
    Mk3.1 347 AFR 205cc Heads A9L EFI siemens deca 60lb injectors MSD 6AL ignition Vortech V-3 3 Link PS/PB

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  35. #30
    Senior Member Avalanche325's Avatar
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    I did a StartingLine school (SCCA autocross) where the instructors were national champions. We had an small oval set up to practice getting in and out of turns. The instructor would actually grab the wheel so I couldn't turn in when braking until I got it.

    1st lap. Your tires were probably still cold. That makes the traction circle smaller.

    GoDads video is a good one. Take notice that the instructor immediately says ADVANCED DRIVING TECHNIQUE. Get Brake - off brakes - turn, down first.

  36. #31
    Senior Member Duke's Avatar
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    Fantastic you got this on video. It's a good learning lesson. My 2 cents for what it's worth (I race Spec Miata, karts, and track day street cars).

    1. This happened lap 1 (or 2) per your post above. Your tires are way to cold still to be leaning on them hard. Being that this isn't a race, I personally like giving it 2-3 laps to build up speed and most importantly, temp in the tires.
    2. You're 6-8' off your apex's. Use the whole track.
    3. Smooth your turn in's a little more. You're still a little sharp on the wheel. Try and feel the weight transfer and the wheels load up. It should be a very smooth progressive feeling. You can be more sharp with the wheel exiting the corner/post apex, but always smooth in.
    4. Watch your break points (markers if available, or track landmarks). Start safe, then inch closer as you learn the limits. Avoid trail braking until you can really understand and feel the weight transfer and how the car reacts.
    5. Avoid the curbs. It will upset the car on the limit and if you aren't anticipating it or know how the car reacts it's going to get you into trouble.
    6. Eyes up. The first time you hit a corner too hot and make it through, or early apex it you're going to be crapping your self in the exit and worried about running off the track. You'll go where your eyes are, so keep them up and looking down track.

    In the video, you were way to hot into the right turn at the end of the straight. You started your braking just past #2 marker, had a slow turn in with too much speed, then over-turned the car while in the middle of the turn in. With cold (or even hot tires) the traction just won't be there and your back end will step out. Brake earlier, and smooth your turn in's. Slowly build up your speed through the turns and be as smooth as possible.

    Overall, nice work. Keep it up.

  37. #32
    Senior Member Duke's Avatar
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    One note on car prep.

    1. Brake fluid. Go change your fluid and put in some good Motul or similar racing fluid. It's no fun when you are threshold braking and your pedal goes soft to the floor. The tire wall comes hard and fast. This mostly happens because you boil your brake fluid. If you aren't going to change the fluids before each event, then pay attention to the wet boiling point of the fluid. Dry is fresh fluid boiling point, Wet is after it's 'used' and has absorbed it's 2-3% moisture. On street cars, I usually change the fluids once at the begging of the season.

    2. Tire pressures matter. Get a good gauge and a bike pump (seriously, it works and is easy to store/bring with you). Learn your cold and hot pressures. Take the pressures after each session once back in the pits. Target temps depend a lot on the tire/weight of the car. For the Cobra on street tires, I would think 32-36 hot would be the target. On R7's on the Miata we target 36 hot. On my 930 (2,500 lbs/NT01's) I start at 30 cold and target 36 hot for track days.

  38. #33
    Senior Member Avalanche325's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Just puttering View Post
    This is a great thread, there is a video i saw where someone went down the street a ways and then for no apparent reason, did a 180 and ended up on the left side of the road! I always wondered what he did so as not to duplicate this. I may have just got my answer! Wanting to go to some track nights this year, this thread may have just saved me from replacing body parts. Car and personal!!
    This is what is called "trailing throttle oversteer". This is from an abrupt lift. This happens a lot when people break the rear loose and then panic lift.

    The rear breaks loose. You now have very little rear grip and hot rear tires. The fronts are doing just fine.
    The driver lifts. Weight transfers forward. The rear tires are still slipping, but backwards in relation to the road, and even more since they are unweighted. The fronts are still fine.
    The car is slowing down. This is done through the contact patches. The front has grip and the rear does not. This means that the front of the car wants to slow down. The rear is trying to maintain speed, because its tires are not slowing it down.
    There is almost no chance that the car is going perfectly straight. So the front tires are now a pivot point, like suddenly putting the rudder in the front of a boat.
    Around you go! It is effectively the same as doing a hand brake turn.

    The trick is to ease off the throttle, that way the rears will grip again rather than doing the moon walk.

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