Patrick's 427 Build

[Papa]

New Builder

I haven't been in the garage much recently for a really good reason. I've been busy welcoming a new member to the forum. This is our first son. Welcome to the build, Emmett!

Congratulations! Somebody get that boy a wrench.

[TMartinLVNV]

Congratulations Pat! Have you found a baby seat that fits on the passenger side yet?

[KDubU]

Congrats! A co-pilot in a few years.

[PeteMeindl]

That's awesome, Pat!!! Congratulations! There's no better news than this! Being a parent is an even bigger adventure than building a car!

[E-Car Man]

Congratulations. Hoping that Mom and Son are both doing well.

[ptbashor]

Take care of what's important. The car will be there when you get back to it. My son is 8 months old so I was just there. It's a new adventure for sure.

[Boydster]

Congrats Pat!

[ydousurf]

I guess this just gives you a new reason to build another project in the future, that is, once your little helper is a little older. Congrats to you and your wife and all the family, on this most precious and glorious journey, Pat!

Dj

[Jeff Kleiner]

Congrats Pat! Before you know it you too will have a helper



Jeff

[Pat427]

Congrats Pat! Before you know it you too will have a helper


Jeff

Love that pic, Jeff!

[Pat427]

Last One

Ok, Ok. Last one, I promise.

[Pat427]

Texas Cobra Meeting

Out of curiosity, anyone attending the Texas Cobra Club meeting in April?

[Pat427]

Fired Up

I completed installing the new 3/8th inch fuel lines (send and return) along with the new Pro-M Hanger and fired up the engine again. Wow. Even my untrained ear can hear a pretty big difference in the sound of the engine.

The engine now has a much deeper and smooth sound. When I press the accelerator, there is no longer a hesitation in response from the engine. All in all, I'm pretty happy with things at this point. Still haven't tackled fine tuning the engine or anything.

I took the car out around the neighborhood and it ran nicely. I started to bed the brakes as outlined in the Wilwood instructions. I'm still a little concerned about the brake situation. They just don't seem to be as responsive as I thought they would be. I just don't have a point of reference, so I'm not sure if what I'm feeling is normal or abnormal. I hoping to get another builder over to my place to test the brakes and let me know if they're working well or not. I welcome anyone to swing by if you're near New Braunfels, TX.

Lastly, something that I hesitate confess, as I think a lot of you might shake your heads at me. But, I still haven't got the radiator fan to click on.

I'm hoping it's just a situation where I haven't kept the car running long enough to get it up to temperature. I've only ran the car for a few minutes at a time (like maybe 5 minutes at the most) I got the temperature up to about 67-68 C, so I'm not sure if that's hot enough or not.

On a brighter note, the gauges all seem to be working normally, including the fuel level gauge, which I was previously having issues.

[TMartinLVNV]

I'm flying into SA tomorrow for 2 1/2 weeks. My mom is having surgery but I should be good to leave the house by the weekend. I have the feeling that I will be ready for a road trip.

Mine takes longer than 5 minutes idling before the fan kicks on.

[Papa]

Fired Up

I completed installing the new 3/8th inch fuel lines (send and return) along with the new Pro-M Hanger and fired up the engine again. Wow. Even my untrained ear can hear a pretty big difference in the sound of the engine.

The engine now has a much deeper and smooth sound. When I press the accelerator, there is no longer a hesitation in response from the engine. All in all, I'm pretty happy with things at this point. Still haven't tackled fine tuning the engine or anything.

I took the car out around the neighborhood and it ran pretty nicely. I started to bed the brakes as outlined in the Wilwood instructions. I'm still a little concerned about the brake situation. They just don't seem to be as responsive as I thought they would be. I just don't have a point of reference, so I'm not sure if what I'm feeling is normal or abnormal. I hoping to get another builder over to my place to test the brakes and let me know if they're working well or not. I welcome anyone to swing by if you're near New Braunfels, TX.

Lastly, something that I hesitate confess, as I think a lot of you might shake your heads at me. But, I still haven't got the radiator fan to click on.

I'm hoping it's just a situation where I just haven't kept the car running long enough to get it up to temperature. I've only ran the car for a few minutes at a time (like maybe 5 minutes at the most) I got the temperature up to about 67-68 C, so I'm not sure if that's hot enough or not.

On a brighter note, the gauges all seem to be working normally, including the fuel level gauge, which I was previously having issues.

Pat,

The fan should come on around 80-85 degrees C.

Dave

[Pat427]

Let me know when you start getting cabin fever and maybe you can swing by.

I'm flying into SA tomorrow for 2 1/2 weeks. My mom is having surgery but I should be good to leave the house by the weekend. I have the feeling that I will be ready for a road trip.

Mine takes longer than 5 minutes idling before the fan kicks on.

[TMartinLVNV]

How close is your house to Cooper's BBQ? I've been to the one in Llano a few times on motorcycle rides through the hill country. Rudy's has a special place in my heart too, but they are all over SA now. I used to be a frequent diner to the original one by UTSA.

mmm, I'm hungry now.

[Pat427]

Google Maps says 14 minutes.

It looks like there might be some other builders from the San Antonio Cobra Club coming by on Saturday morning.

[Pat427]

Visitors

I had a couple visitors today. A couple guys from the local Cobra Club stopped by my build. It's always good to see a finished product for motivation. It's nice to have some knowledgeable guys nearby.

[Pat427]

Two Steps Forward, Six Steps Back

Shane and Terry (TMartinLVNV) stopped by the build again today and went over things with a fine toothed comb and discovered multiple things that I'm going to have to address. I'll list them out and anyone feel free to chime in with advice on some or all of these issues.

1. My Holley Sniper is reading an Air/Fuel ratio of 35.6. I'm told this is markedly abnormal. The car runs, but sounds and smells very rich, which is expected given that A/F ratio. No error codes are noted on the Holley handheld. Of note: when I first installed my side pipes, I originally drilled a hole in the pipe to allow the O2 sensor to be at 15 degrees above horizontal (which is the recommended position from Holley), which I later discovered is not possible given the interference with the body, so I had to drill another hole to allow proper positioning of the O2 sensor. Well, this resulted in there being a big unfilled hole in my pipe, which I have tried to cover with Aluminum heat tape. Not sure if this hole is causing such an abnormal A/F ratio or not. Terry and Shane doubt that hole would be the sole cause of such a huge abnormality in the A/F ratio. Otherwise, I hoping its just a bad sensor. Any thoughts? (I've ordered Gas'n Quiet Pipes, which haven't arrived yet to remedy the issue with he hole it the pipe). Also, there is a little but of melting to the O2 sensor wire (it slipped and was resting on the pipes), but it doesn't appear the inner wires were affected. Not sure if this caused the issue or not. Anyone with any thoughts? I'll be calling Holley tomorrow to send them the diagnostic recording I made on the handheld. I'm hoping its an easy fix....

2. I have a leak in my Saginaw power steering pump, which is a huge PITA to access given its location. I'm probably going to have to disassemble the whole belt system to access the leak.

3. Small leak in my oil pressure sensor. This shouldn't be too hard to tighten up.

4. My clutch pedal was waaaaaaay too stiff. Terry estimated it was at least 10x stiffer than his. We squirted WD40 into the sheath of the cable and BAM!, the clutch pedal effort was like butter. The guys seem to think I need a longer and higher quality cable. Currently I have the FF cable which I'm told is pretty crappy.

5. My Lokar throttle cable seem to be too short, which is causing a fairly stiff throttle. Recommendation is for a longer Lokar cable. I also need to add a second spring to the throttle body.

6. I need to put a nut on my Howe racing tie rod end. I think EdwardB has recs on this?

7. There is concern that my header gaskets are no bueno. There is soot on engine block from right above the header gaskets on the drivers side.

8. I need to anchor the lower radiator tube to the frame X-member.

9. My throttle cable is having a tiny bit of rub on the throttle body, which needs to fixed. I know Papa had a nice fix for this, but I'm not sure I want to spend the money on it.

10. I'm going to put an extension on the bottom of the radiator overflow tank so coolant doesn't spray into the engine compartment when running at temperature.

I'm sure there are few others, but I can't think of them at the moment as I'm a little dazed right now.

I'm thankful for those guys coming over and discovering these issues, but damn, I'm feeling a little bummed. Oh well, this is the part that makes this build fun.

Thanks,

Patrick

[skidd]

Sorry we got ya bummed Pat!! At least it was all just fiddly bits, nothing really major.. except for the AF issue of course . Next time we'll start with some beers to numb the pain first.

Also.. that 2nd throttle return spring... Don't put on a heavy one. Use the fatter light one. It's really just an added safety feature. A backup if you will.

[Jeff Kleiner]

... My Holley Sniper is reading an Air/Fuel ratio of 35.6. I'm told this is markedly abnormal. The car runs, but sounds and smells very rich, which is expected given that A/F ratio...

No, 35.6:1 is tremendously lean, not rich. People mistakenly think that when the exhaust stinks and burns your eyes it's rich, which is wrong. That's what lean or retarded timing does. That said I'd question the accuracy of that number; I'm not sure it would even run at idle if it's really that lean.

Jeff

[Papa]

No, 35.6:1 is tremendously lean, not rich. People mistakenly think that when the exhaust stinks and burns your eyes it's rich, which is wrong. That's what lean or retarded timing does. That said I'd question the accuracy of that number; I'm not sure it would even run at idle if it's really that lean.

Jeff

Pat,

As Jeff and I learned while my car was at his shop, the Sniper seems to be very sensitive to what the O2 sensor is reading. If you are pulling in any fresh air near the sensor, it may be causing the Sniper to think it's running lean and start dumping fuel in to compensate. Get your exhaust leaks addressed and be sure you aren't sucking any air into the system from outside the intake. You may want to check your plugs while you are at it and also re-run the setup wizard on the Sniper after you get the exhaust sealed up.

Dave

[skidd]

No, 35.6:1 is tremendously lean, not rich. People mistakenly think that when the exhaust stinks and burns your eyes it's rich, which is wrong. That's what lean or retarded timing does. That said I'd question the accuracy of that number; I'm not sure it would even run at idle if it's really that lean.

Jeff

I think what Pat meant to explain was.. since the Sniper is thinking the AF is at 35.6 (full lean), and it's showing it's in "closed loop".. it's adding more and more fuel trying to get the AFs back to the current target of 13.8. The "short term" fuel trims were at +50% and the long term was slowly going up as it sat idling. It smelled of raw fuel and was putting out a good amount of black exhaust. I'm pretty convinced there is a glitch-in-the-matrix. No matter what was done, the AFs never altered from full lean (35.6). Blips of the throttle did nothing to the AFs. Sealed up the few small exhaust leaks did nothing to the AFs. Either the sensor is borked, or something in the sniper brain is borked.

[Jeff Kleiner]

I think what Pat meant to explain was.. since the Sniper is thinking the AF is at 35.6 (full lean), and it's showing it's in "closed loop".. it's adding more and more fuel trying to get the AFs back to the current target of 13.8. The "short term" fuel trims were at +50% and the long term was slowly going up as it sat idling. It smelled of raw fuel and was putting out a good amount of black exhaust. I'm pretty convinced there is a glitch-in-the-matrix. No matter what was done, the AFs never altered from full lean (35.6). Blips of the throttle did nothing to the AFs. Sealed up the few small exhaust leaks did nothing to the AFs. Either the sensor is borked, or something in the sniper brain is borked.

Yes, Pat wasn't explaining it clearly but now that makes more sense. As Papa Dave said, and I experienced when his car was with me for paint with the sidepipes off the Sniper seems to lose it's mind and if the sensor is getting any false air into the exhaust. Plug those holes and fix the exhaust leaks before you go too far down a rabbit hole. BTW Pat, you are seeing black soot where the exhaust is leaking out but under the proper conditions such as when the throttle is closed after revving fresh air can and will get drawn INTO the exhaust through the same leak and cause the O2 sensor to read false lean which will tell the ECU to go rich.

Good luck,
Jeff

[TMartinLVNV]

Jeff and Dave please take a look at this thread on the Holley forum. The issue described seems to be the same. He may need to have to send the whole TB back to Holley in the end if nothing else fixes it.

https://forums.holley.com/showthread...es#post_104343

The exhaust leaks must be addressed first. Most of his header bolts needed a 1/4 turn to snug up. After Pat does a few more heat cycles of his motor he will keep checking those bolts until they no loner need tightening. Pat is going to call/email Holley as well. I had him do a 30 second data log in case they need it.

His 427 is a thing of beauty. Once he gets it running right, I know he will be super happy with it. I certainly had my tuning and leak issues for the first few weeks of operation. The biggest thing is that Pat got his motor running and this is his first big step into the car world! That is something to be very proud of. Now it is time to attack each issue until it is perfect.

It was a pleasure to meet both Pat and Shane in person while visiting SA. Both were great guys to talk to and see their builds. Personally, I think Pat may be overcompensating with such a huge engine. I did notice that he had really small feet when visiting him Shane is makine due with an itty bitty 302

[Pat427]

A/F Update

So I called Holley today and discussed the issue. They said it was most likely the O2 sensor has failed. I know there has been some discussion about the angle in mounting the sensor. The instructions say to mount it at least 15 degrees above horizontal, which isn't possible given the interference with the body, so mine was mounted about 15 degrees below horizontal. The Holley guy said this is a no no. I know others on the forum state this is not a big deal, but I thought I'd re-visit the issue to see if anyone has recommendations.

The guy from Holley said that if I replace the sensor and it still reads an A/F of 35.6, then it's likely the ECU and I would need to send the whole thing back to them.

So, my gameplay is this:

1. I'm going to replace my pipes with the Gas'n Quiet Pipes (something I was going to do later, but will do now in order to troubleshoot things)

2. If my A/F is still high, then I'll replace the O2 sensor.

3. If that doesn't work then I'll send the whole thing back to Holley.

Anyone have a link to which O2 sensor I should purchase?

Thanks,

Patrick

[TMartinLVNV]

https://www.holley.com/products/fuel.../parts/554-155

https://www.efisystempro.com/wbo2-se...er-tbi-554-155

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/hly-554-155

[skidd]

The only thing having the o2 sensor at that angle does.. is shorten its life span. It gets moisture inside it when it cools off.. and that will kill it sooner than "normal". I have mine for my Innovate LC1 installed at a similar angle to yours. It's been working fine for about 1000 miles. I know if/when the sensor dies, I'll just bite the bullet and buy a new one and not worry about it. It's small $$ for the only place I was willing to install it. P.S. I checked.. and the sensor in my car is a Bosch LSU-4.2 Your sniper uses the Bosch LSU-4.9, so we can't just try mine for testing.

[Pat427]

New Sniper

Well, long story short, Holley is sending me a new Sniper. The conclusion is there is something wrong with the ECU. So, once the new one arrives, I'm keeping my fingers crossed it fixes the A/F ration problem.

[TMartinLVNV]

Interesting. I'm glad they are taking care of the problem. Did you try a new O2 sensor before getting Holley to send a new unit?

[Pat427]

Interesting. I'm glad they are taking care of the problem. Did you try a new O2 sensor before getting Holley to send a new unit?

Yes. I tried a new O2 sensor. The A/F ratio still read 35.6.

Holley was super fast about shipping out a new one. I mean, I received a shipping notification that a new Sniper had been shipped within about 20 minutes of hanging up. Interesting...

[skidd]

On the upside.. since your o2 is an a non-ideal angle, you already have a spare o2 sensor for when the 1st one dies down the road!!

[Pat427]

Starting the Fixes

I'm an ER doctor, so as you can imagine work has been a disaster recently, so I haven't been in the garage much in the past few weeks.

I managed to score a couple days off, so I started fixing all the issues that were discovered during TMartinLVNV and skidds visit to my build.

First, I decided to address the leak from the back of the power steering pump. I had installed a pressure reducer to the back of the Saginaw pump (https://www.jegs.com/i/JEGS/555/60791/10002/-1)

There appeared to be a leak from in between the two brass pieces (where the black O-ring is located). See pic below:





I had to cut off a bolt on the back of the pump in order to get a wrench on these parts so I could tightened them down. After a lot of effort, I was able to get the pressure reducer much tighter. See Pic below. You can see the O-ring is crushed way more.


Hopefully, this fixes the leak. Fingers crossed.

Also, TMartinLVNV and skidd mentioned that I need to put 9/16-18 jam nuts on the Moog Tie Rod ends:


I've ordered these bolts and once they arrive, I'll be putting the car on jackstands, removing the tires and undoing the tie rods so I can get those jam nuts in place.


Still waiting on the new Sniper. Should be here on April 1st.

Let me know if ya'll have any thoughts on these issues.

Patrick

[TMartinLVNV]

Get a tie rod separator. If you don't have one already, you can buy a combo kit (they are cheap) or "rent" one from AutoZone. You pay for the tool and they refund it when returned. I can't remember if you used the cotter pins on the castle nuts already. If you did, you will need to replace them as well.

https://www.amazon.com/OrionMotorTec...s%2C234&sr=8-7

[Jeff Kleiner]

There appeared to be a leak from in between the two brass pieces (where the black O-ring is located)....

...After a lot of effort, I was able to get the pressure reducer much tighter. You can see the O-ring is crushed way more.

Hopefully, this fixes the leak. Fingers crossed.

Let me know if ya'll have any thoughts on these issues.

I'll keep my fingers crossed for you too but the thing with O ring fittings is that more often than not leaks are caused by them being overtightened rather than by them not being tight enough. You only need to barely compress the ring by making the fitting or nut snug. When you bear a$$ down on them the ring will usually get displaced or cut.

Thanks for your ER work and be careful when you go back in. I have a brother in law who is an ER doctor and niece who is a trauma nurse so my thoughts are with all of you on the front lines.

Jeff

[ptbashor]

Looking good, keep it up while you can!

I'm living vicariously through your build. One of these days I'll get back to the US and order my kit. Got my wife and son out of India and back to Texas but I'm here for the long haul. Things are starting to get stupid.

[Pat427]

New Sniper

I got a delivery today.




Very impressed with Holley's willingness to replace the Sniper. I have no proof of this, but from reading Sniper forums, it sounds like Holley may have had a batch of Snipers with an ECU problem, which was leading to an A/F ratio of 35.6. The tech on the phone said they had identified and fixed the issue, but were being pretty good about replacing any Snipers with this problem.

Now, I just have to install it. Sounds simple....we'll see...

[Papa]

New Sniper

Now, I just have to install it. Sounds simple....we'll see...

You'll get it done, Pat. Replacing one that you've already installed and had the car running is much simpler than wiring one up from scratch.

Dave

[Pat427]

You'll get it done, Pat. Replacing one that you've already installed and had the car running is much simpler than wiring one up from scratch.

Dave

Thanks Dave. I'm hoping you're right. And thanks again for walking me through the wiring the first time around.