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Thread: Fuel Cell Size for NASA Team Racing Endurance Challenge

  1. #1
    Senior Member Mulry's Avatar
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    Fuel Cell Size for NASA Team Racing Endurance Challenge

    Hey guys, back after a too-long hiatus of breaking and rebuilding the Lemons car. Which is broken again (dropped a valve at Barber last weekend), but it's in time out for a few months so I can get back to the 818 and try to get it ready to race.

    NASA Texas is doing a Team Racing Endurance Challenge race in September, and I'm aiming to have the 818 in that. One of the limitations is that the fuel cell "vehicles must start with no more fuel than the OEM tanks holds or a maximum of eighteen (18) gallons, whichever is less."

    The FFR tank that comes with our cars is ~14.5 gallons, which I would assume qualifies as an "OEM tank" for these rule purposes (despite the fact that the 818 will be considered a "non-production vehicle" under ST rules). We'll be running a fuel cell. I've got an out-of-date 22 gallon cell from a prior project in the car as a mockup, but that's going to have to get changed for racing.

    So, with all of that as context/background, here's my question: does anybody have experience with NASA tech on the fuel cell size issue for E0/ST3 cars, and if so, do you foresee a compliance problem if we install a 15-gallon fuel cell with a 0.5 gallon volume displacement ball?

    Thx in advance.
    Last edited by Mulry; 02-07-2019 at 12:51 PM.

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    ST/WERC rules are available online and should be studied closely. From what I recall (double check), any fuel cell size is fine up to something too big to fit the 818 (40gal?). With that, you cannot start with more than the maximum that the stock tank holds. There is a separate allowance iirc for additional 0.5gal swirl pot. Again, verify. Easy to check rules.

    ST3 allows dry break. Max fuel per refuel is two 5gallon fuel jugs (10 gal max). If the 5 gal jug isn't full you cannot grab a 3rd. Also no fuel can be showing in the neck/filler tube. IOW 10gal max regardless of tank capacity or engine thirst.

    Your issue will be what the 818 is classified as. It has an allowance in ST rules, but I have no idea what "stock" tank capacity would be considered for the 818. You would be best to check with Greg G. or national office for clarification. ST rules list points for allowed non-production vehicles, but I never checked close enough to see if they specify fuel loads for each. I don't remember seeing that.

    https://community.drivenasa.com/topi...-series-rules/

    https://supertouring.nasaseries.com/forms-rules/

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    Senior Member Mulry's Avatar
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    That's a really smart distinction. I've read and annotated what I think are all the applicable regulations (CCR 19.2, ST1-4/SU v13.2, Endurance Racing Rules v2019.2, Team Racing Endurance Challenge Rules v2018.22, and the 25 Hours Supplement 11/28/18), and I think that you're right. Max fuel cell size is 44 gal, but you can only fill 10 gallons per pit stop, and you can't start with more than the OEM fuel tank would allow in that car, which I'd guess would be set at 14.5 since that's what the "stock" tank on the 818 holds.

    But you're right, I'll check with my NASA regional guy about this, since he's the one who will be either passing or kicking us out. We do a lot of Lemons racing so we're excited for the Team Endurance Challenge races.

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    FYI I and I believe Rob T's cars have 15 gallon cells, mine is an ATL. If you are limited to capacity by the rules to 18 gallons I would use a 22 gallon cell and block it down to 18. My way of thinking is even if you can only add 10 gallons a stop you have additional flexibility with your refueling strategy starting with a full load. JMO
    I will add that my car will go for about an hour on 13+ or - gallons before I get a stumble, I don't have a Hydramat but am running a Radium fuel collector box.

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    I would contact the regional director will faules and ask him. I believe you can run a larger fuel cell but will need to drain it and add 15 gal prior to the race and it will then be sealed by tech.

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    Senior Member Mulry's Avatar
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    The applicable rule limits the starting fuel capacity to "with no more fuel than the OEM tanks holds or a maximum of eighteen (18) gallons, whichever is less." I'm going to clarify with NASA, but I suspect that since the chassis shipped with a 14.5g tank, that's going to be the initial fuel fill limit.

    We'll have to tune the car pretty specifically for class rules, but I think we will want to keep it in E0/ST3, which limits us to a 10:1 weight:thrust ratio (as modified with other stuff in the class calculator). Hopefully we will get a little better fuel economy out of that too (fingers crossed), since we can't add more than 10g/stop and getting longer stints between stops is always best in endurance racing.

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    Senior Member C.Plavan's Avatar
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    Rob's Car/ My old car is 17 gallons IIRC. Do not go by the Stock WRX tank, you are already taking the Non Production car modifier, so you do not have to go by the WRX fuel cell size (I think 18 gallons is the max for that class now, with a .4 swirl pot- Just changed). Here are the new rules that just came out a couple of weeks ago. The changes are in red. I believe they got rid of the 10 gallon fill up rule also.

    Read up here for new rules.
    https://nasa-assets.s3.amazonaws.com...duro2019.2.pdf

    FYI- A one way box in the fuel cell is 1000X better than a Hydromat. A number of NP01 Prototype owners removed the Hydramat due to fueling issues. I guess there are issues with Fuel Injected cars after awhile.
    Thanks- Chad
    818R-SOLD!!!- Go Karted 7/20/14/ Officially raced NASA ST2- 2/28/15
    2016 Elan NP01 Prototype Racecar Chassis #20
    1969 Porsche 911ST Vintage Race Car
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    Senior Member Mulry's Avatar
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    Thanks Chad. I just emailed my regional NASA director and will report back what I hear.

    However, both the current Endurance Racing (v2019.2) and the Team Racing Endurance Challenge (v2018.11) regulations retain the 10-gallon fill up limitation. Section 8.2.1 of the endurance rules says that "The contents of two (2) NASA approved 5-gallon containers may be put into the vehicle during any pit stop. The containers may not be refilled during a pit stop and put into the vehicle." 8.2.1 of the TREC rules is essentially identical: "No more than 10 gallons of fuel from two NASA approved* standard 5-gallon plastic fuel containers may be put into the vehicle during any pit stop. The containers may not be refilled during a pit stop and put into the vehicle."

    To me, these rules are kind of absurd for endurance racing, as it would seem that it's in the best interest of both the organization and the individual teams to incentivize longer stints (and thus fewer pit stops, thus fewer opportunities for people to get hurt on pit lane), but I could understand if they are trying to keep the costs down from buying bigger fuel cells. I think that's the wrong bargain to strike, but I would understand it.

    Your report on the hydramat is interesting. We've run both the in-cell surge tank and a hydramat in our Lemons fuel cell in the BMW and have been way, way happier with the performance of the Hydramat in terms of being able to run the tank dry. Biggest problem is that you don't get much warning on when the tank's dry (because the Hydramat is so efficient), so you have to really know your fuel state.

  10. #9
    Senior Member C.Plavan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mulry View Post
    Thanks Chad. I just emailed my regional NASA director and will report back what I hear.

    However, both the current Endurance Racing (v2019.2) and the Team Racing Endurance Challenge (v2018.11) regulations retain the 10-gallon fill up limitation. Section 8.2.1 of the endurance rules says that "The contents of two (2) NASA approved 5-gallon containers may be put into the vehicle during any pit stop. The containers may not be refilled during a pit stop and put into the vehicle." 8.2.1 of the TREC rules is essentially identical: "No more than 10 gallons of fuel from two NASA approved* standard 5-gallon plastic fuel containers may be put into the vehicle during any pit stop. The containers may not be refilled during a pit stop and put into the vehicle."

    To me, these rules are kind of absurd for endurance racing, as it would seem that it's in the best interest of both the organization and the individual teams to incentivize longer stints (and thus fewer pit stops, thus fewer opportunities for people to get hurt on pit lane), but I could understand if they are trying to keep the costs down from buying bigger fuel cells. I think that's the wrong bargain to strike, but I would understand it.

    Your report on the hydramat is interesting. We've run both the in-cell surge tank and a hydramat in our Lemons fuel cell in the BMW and have been way, way happier with the performance of the Hydramat in terms of being able to run the tank dry. Biggest problem is that you don't get much warning on when the tank's dry (because the Hydramat is so efficient), so you have to really know your fuel state.
    Yep you are right. I thought since they now allowed Dry Breaks in E0 they got rid of the fuel limit. Maybe it was the tire changing. I don't know, but yes, it is silly to limit fueling in an Enduro (or tire changes). We never had to deal with that in ES,ENP,ESR. If I were you, I would build a car to WRL rules. Those races are a blast and very well run. You save a ton on tires etc and do not have silly refueling or tire change rules. It's real racing unlike Lemons.

    The Hydramat would eventually fail, car would stumble with a half of a tank. Even the Hydramat manufacture told us to take them out. Elan stopped putting them in the cars. I never had one thankfully, because my car was an early build.

    We raced at Daytona with WRL- 14 hours. It was so damn fun, even when severely limited by street tires.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8cAjweBcHp8
    Last edited by C.Plavan; 02-08-2019 at 12:52 PM.
    Thanks- Chad
    818R-SOLD!!!- Go Karted 7/20/14/ Officially raced NASA ST2- 2/28/15
    2016 Elan NP01 Prototype Racecar Chassis #20
    1969 Porsche 911ST Vintage Race Car
    1972 Porsche 911T (#'s matching undergoing nut & bolt resto in my garage)

  11. #10
    Senior Member Mulry's Avatar
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    As promised, I'm reporting back. The Texas regional rep, Will Faules, had several good points. First, he said that they will inspect initial fills of the car and then seal the filler, so the fuel cell size is somewhat irrelevant if it's larger than the initial fill. He also confirmed that in-race fills are limited to 10 gallons.

    He also noted that a 15 gallon cell may not hold even 14.5 when full due to the foam in the cell -- so I'll probably just put a new 22 gallon bladder in the can that I already have fitted to the car.

    I wonder what is the failure mechanism with the Hydramat? Wear?

    On the WRL front, I have a seat in those races with a buddy anytime I want one, so I don't need to build a car to that spec (plus I'm spending all that money on the 818 anyway). But having done close to 50 Lemons races by now, I'd contest the contention that it's not "real" racing. While there are still some slower cars on track in these races (although lots fewer than there used to be), the pointy end is pretty competitive, and the cost to build a competitive car is far lower than for the same in WRL. I think that there's room for both series, as they cater to different crowds, but I don't think it's accurate to say that there's not plenty of real racing action in a Lemons race.

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    Senior Member C.Plavan's Avatar
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    Well- Lemons out West was fun at first, but now is a joke. We ran with them for 2 years, then "Graduated" from all that silliness. 90-187 cars on the track is not fun, It was just pace laps. Then the constant flags, and dumb rule processes. We went to Chump/Champ/Lucky Dog and had alot more fun and never looked back. Must be different where you are, but it is in no way racing out here. Keep in mind the guys I have as drivers all race NASA with W2W experience. The Lemons races cater to a different crowd out here which is fine. WRL is my favorite of the bunch for enduros, even over NASA.
    Last edited by C.Plavan; 02-08-2019 at 01:52 PM.
    Thanks- Chad
    818R-SOLD!!!- Go Karted 7/20/14/ Officially raced NASA ST2- 2/28/15
    2016 Elan NP01 Prototype Racecar Chassis #20
    1969 Porsche 911ST Vintage Race Car
    1972 Porsche 911T (#'s matching undergoing nut & bolt resto in my garage)

  13. #12
    Senior Member Mulry's Avatar
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    That's a fair point. I've done the Lemons race at Sonoma several times and really enjoyed it, but I can see where you're coming from on the car counts stuff. Personally, I really enjoy the traffic management challenge that comes with car counts like that, but I also understand that can be frustrating if that's not the game you want to play. It's definitely different in the Texas/Gulf races, the car counts are still relatively high (70's-80's, typically), but that's a world of difference from 120, and then as the field thins out over the course of the day it gets even lower.

    Or, your BMW can drop a valve in practice on Friday and then you don't have to worry about it at all in the race, which is the fun we got to have last weekend at Barber...

  14. #13
    Senior Member C.Plavan's Avatar
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    I feel your pain. Its Bad luck to practice on a friday before the race. We know also. :P
    Thanks- Chad
    818R-SOLD!!!- Go Karted 7/20/14/ Officially raced NASA ST2- 2/28/15
    2016 Elan NP01 Prototype Racecar Chassis #20
    1969 Porsche 911ST Vintage Race Car
    1972 Porsche 911T (#'s matching undergoing nut & bolt resto in my garage)

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    Senior Member Mulry's Avatar
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    The sick thing is that it did about 18 hours of a 24 hour race in November until a driver went off track in the dark and cracked the oil pan, but it never lost oil pressure (until we turned it off and it puked oil out the crack onto the garage floor). We checked the bearings underneath it and all was fine. Did about an hour or 90 minutes on Friday so that a couple drivers who were rusty at Barber could get their bearings back, all was fine. And then suddenly a spring cap cracked on one of the cylinder 5 intake valves and it was all over. Tried to swap a head on Friday night but we didn't have a new head gasket (and couldn't find one) and the re-used HG wouldn't seal. It's a shame because that's such a fun track to drive. Oh well.

    In one sense, I'm glad it happened in Friday practice. Although it sucked to not race, it would have really sucked to blow the motor on track at full song on Saturday. Would have oiled the track down good and probably windowed the block. As it is, it's all rebuildable, which is nice because those heads are starting to get pricey. Weird since they made so many and they're all interchangeable on the M/S 50/52 engines (except the double-vanos TU engine, which we learned the hard way). You live, you learn.

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