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Thread: Safety Mod’s

  1. #41
    Senior Member cnutting's Avatar
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    Also in the Doc and Gumball court. I have a metco loop and use the fifth belt, use it every time. But that's it.

    I keep my brain engaged and maintain good situational awareness. Yep, accidents happen. But, that's what I signed up for when I traded my STI with all the safety gear for this adventure.
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  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by cnutting View Post
    Also in the Doc and Gumball court. I have a metco loop and use the fifth belt, use it every time. But that's it.

    I keep my brain engaged and maintain good situational awareness. Yep, accidents happen. But, that's what I signed up for when I traded my STI with all the safety gear for this adventure.

    I'm closer to you three too.

    No loop - I'm of the opinion that any driveshaft failure I experience will likely be on launch, or on the shift to second - relatively low energy events that just don't worry me that much.

    On the other hand, clutch / flywheel / pressure plate failures are likely to be near rev limiter - lots of energy in that situation - too close to my knees.

    No clutch or neutral safety switches - simply not something I'll forget.

    Typically lap belts only - could bite me if someone crosses center line - otherwise I have pretty complete control of where the front of the car is going, and how fast - comfortable enough with that.

    Not real comfortable sitting (trapped) at a red light - getting rear ended (hard) would be a death sentence in lowbacks - and I prefer the improved side support of the Kirkeys anyway.

  3. #43
    Senior Member UnhipPopano's Avatar
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    Not long ago, two people were killed in a F5 car. The one thing that could have been added to the car so that they would be alive today is not on anyone's list. It is easy to believe that you are a good enough driver that you would never loose control in a turn or at the wrong time and this driver probably felt the same way. If he had put traction control into his build, the thread about the event and the related news would never have been.

    For those that wish to see what driving a light weight and high power car without traction and stability control is like, get on Forza or something similar, choose a light weight car and select the maximum power of build. Then turn off all of the assists and try any of the tracks with changing weather. I have tried this and would not feel safe or comfortable driving such a car in traffic.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by UnhipPopano View Post

    The one thing that could have been added to the car so that they would be alive today is not on anyone's list.

    If he had put traction control into his build, the thread about the event and the related news would never have been.
    I respectfully disagree.

    If we are referring to the same incident (and I think we are), traction control (as opposed to stability control - such as Porsche - which is currently pretty unachievable in a home built car) will not save you from a "sloppy lift" off the throttle.

    Most of these total loss of control incidents / accidents / crashes are the direct result of getting the car out of shape and stepping off the throttle (and maybe onto the brake) - and traction control will not save you from that mistake.

    However, the rearward impact I'm referring to was completely unsurvivable in lowback seats.

    Would it have been survivable with some sort of headrest? - maybe, maybe not.


    But traction control will not ever save you from transferring a bunch of weight off the rear tires in a bad situation - you're going for a ride you're probably not going to enjoy.

    And that's exactly how most people end up traveling backwards in the wrong lane in these sorts of vehicles (Corvette, Viper, Porsche, etc included).
    Last edited by mike223; 02-16-2019 at 01:33 PM.

  5. #45
    Senior Member Avalanche325's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Blocker View Post
    Best safety equipment I have is my brain . . .
    Too bad it's not standard equipment for most people.

  6. #46
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    well this thread inspired me, as a person with cervical vertebrae issues (deg disk disease, herniation, and stenosis), I just pulled the trigger on a Kirkey hi back series 55 seat, if I got rear ended with the current FFR seats it would be very very very bad. I think high back seats are probably a valuable safety addition for everyone but critical in my case

  7. #47
    Brandon #9196 TexasAviator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Blocker View Post
    Unfortunately, I'm in Gumball's court too - not much in the way of safety stuff. I DO run a driveshaft loop, I DO have the 5th belt installed (and use it on the highway), The battery cut off switch disconnects my alternator stator line so no more charging / powering car when deactivated and last but not least, inertia switch connected in-line to EFI pump. To counter all that; NO clutch switch, NO neutral safety switch, old style "Jeep" dual master with separate reservoirs (built as one casting with MC), NO windshield wipers, nothing to keep me from burning my leg (or any passenger) when getting in or out, NO power steering, NO power brakes, single roll bar.

    Just a pure race car, legal for street driving.

    Best safety equipment I have is my brain . . . fully engaged whenever I get in the car with the intention of starting her up and going out on public roads.

    Doc

    Everyone says that then they choose to strap on a 2200 lb car with 4,5,600 hp and tell people they are safe. Ohhhh kay...

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by TexasAviator View Post

    then they choose to strap on a 2200 lb car with 4,5,600 hp
    Because it's one of the few things that can reliably make a grown man giggle.

    Naturally, there will always be hazards...


    s-l640.jpg

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  10. #49
    Senior Member Avalanche325's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike223 View Post

    No loop - I'm of the opinion that any driveshaft failure I experience will likely be on launch, or on the shift to second - relatively low energy events that just don't worry me that much.

    Typically lap belts only - could bite me if someone crosses center line - otherwise I have pretty complete control of where the front of the car is going, and how fast - comfortable enough with that.
    I am only lighting you up because this is a safety thread. I am pretty sure that this will not change your mind one little bit. But maybe someone else will ponder it.

    A Cobra at full throttle in 1st gear is very far from a low energy event. A 1-2 rapid shift at redline is downright violent and can be a parts tester. I saw a 69 Camaro, on the street with crappy street tires so not a race situation, break a driveshaft about a second after launch. It vaulted the rear of the car a good 4 feet in the air. Also, you can have damage that you don't know about, and the shaft lets go at highway speed. You don't get to chose when a part fails.

    The lap belt only thing.
    On the other forum, one of the members had a crash with only lap belts. He and his wife both had facial injuries. If you think you can keep your face off the steering wheel at anything over 25 mph, you should seek out a ride in one of these. https://www.seatbeltconvincer.com/ I did it many years ago, and convincer is the correct name <10mph and it jars your guts.

    I completely agree with you that most people really seal their fate with an abrupt lift like you stated in another post. The fact that you even know about this makes me scratch my head that you would make the "pretty complete control" so you don't need shoulder belts statement. Hey, maybe you are really Ken Block. Nope.....he wears his shoulder belts.

  11. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Avalanche325 View Post

    I am only lighting you up because this is a safety thread.

    All fair enough.

    Regarding the driveshaft being low energy - I was referring to the fact that the driveshaft is not spinning that quickly on launch / shift to second, and additionally mine's only 10.5" long - it really doesn't worry me much but I will probably end up working a loop in there anyway (catch the front? / catch the back? / catch the middle?).

    The high energy I do worry about is the 157 tooth flywheel / pressure plate / clutch spinning at 6000 rpm - that's far more explosive potential than a 4" diameter driveshaft that will never be spinning at 6000 rpm. !!! Oh yeah - wait - mine would be doing that at 140 mph if I ever go there (at a race track, naturally) - another good reason to work that in !!!


    On the shoulder belts - of course you're correct on the seat belt convincer - but the 3" shoulder belts coming through the high back seat are pretty much unbearably tight (to the point of "cut") against my bare neck without a collar. May have to look into pads or something - I do wear the shoulder belts for autoX and such, and if I don't wear them I simply make it a point to keep the car under (*my*) positive control at all times (again - certainly could get burned on a lane crosser - but that whole situation starts quickly heading toward "unsurvivable" in a small convertible anyway).



    In general I consider myself only slightly safer in the roadster than I would be on a Harley - and that's the level of operator attention + respect I think it demands out on the big road.

    Perhaps we should discuss "reasonable expectations" in this (or another) thread.

    Be safe out there.
    Last edited by mike223; 02-18-2019 at 06:40 PM. Reason: Added "In general..."

  12. #51
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    THANKS GUYS... life has thrown many curves my way and greatly delayed my order... but its coming sooner than later...and your wisdom and experience is not only appreciated.. but amazed at how on top of everything you are... so like many others.. Im in your debt for your contributions.

  13. #52
    Senior Member Itchief's Avatar
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    I really liked the no air bags we die like real men post

    I try to keep reminding myself that this car has all the safety features of a motorcycle minus the helmet but that may be the reason I enjoy the ride so much
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  14. #53
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    Yes, the Cobra is basically just a 4-wheeled sport bike, with slightly more protection but less maneuverability.
    Drive like everyone is out to get you!

  15. #54
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    72809 T bucket 006.jpg
    Talk about being unprotected. I had a guy pull up next to me in his BMW convert and ask, is that thing safe? I told him, safer than a motorcycle. It did not even have lap belts, when I got it. Talk about driving conservative!
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  16. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike223 View Post

    In general I consider myself only slightly safer in the roadster than I would be on a Harley - and that's the level of operator attention + respect I think it demands out on the big road.

    Perhaps we should discuss "reasonable expectations" in this (or another) thread.
    This isn't meant to discourage anyone from wearing harnesses - rather to encourage people to think about mistakes you don't get to make (twice), and mistakes you can't allow another vehicle to force on you.

    But I look at racing harnesses in a street roadster and see this:

    541945607_baffcf1d2b_o.jpg

  17. #56
    Senior Member edwardb's Avatar
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    Have to say I'm more than a little surprised, maybe disappointed, that there's any debate about wearing the full 5-point harness in these cars. Lap, shoulder, and 5th point sub strap. If you do, great. If you don't, please reconsider. Down the street or on a long cruise. Doesn't matter. Could say more but will leave it at that.
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  18. #57
    Senior Member Avalanche325's Avatar
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    Well, admittedly, these are only going to be so safe no matter what you do. Upping your odds is always a good thing if you can.

    mike223,
    You generally want to catch the front of the driveshaft, so you don't do the pole vault . I have the Metco loop. Easy to install. It bolts right up.

  19. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by edwardb View Post

    Have to say I'm more than a little surprised, maybe disappointed


    My point is more along the lines of better operate with the care + caution you would use on a motorcycle.

    Because you're not really far removed - even in a harness.

  20. #59
    Not a waxer Jeff Kleiner's Avatar
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    Since this seems to have turned into a discussion where some seem to feel that (paraphrasing)---"I don't use my belts because I am a good/safe/cautious driver" I'll just interject that my friend and his wife who I mentioned in post #10 that got banged up when they didn't have belts on were hit when another motorist ran through a stop sign. Kinda' hard to be a good/safe/cautious enough driver to keep that from happening. Just sayin'...

    Jeff

  21. #60
    Senior Member edwardb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Kleiner View Post
    Since this seems to have turned into a discussion where some seem to feel that (paraphrasing)---"I don't use my belts because I am a good/safe/cautious driver" I'll just interject that my friend and his wife who I mentioned in post #10 that got banged up when they didn't have belts on were hit when another motorist ran through a stop sign. Kinda' hard to be a good/safe/cautious enough driver to keep that from happening. Just sayin'...

    Jeff
    Dare I add it's also the law in all states as far as I know. Riding around in an open top car without being fully belted in is an open invitation to getting pulled over.
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  22. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Kleiner View Post

    Since this seems to have turned into a discussion where some seem to feel that (paraphrasing)---"I don't use my belts because I am a good/safe/cautious driver" I'll just interject that my friend and his wife who I mentioned in post #10 that got banged up when they didn't have belts on were hit when another motorist ran through a stop sign. Kinda' hard to be a good/safe/cautious enough driver to keep that from happening. Just sayin'...

    Jeff
    Ok, let's try this.

    For every example we can come up with where the harnesses did or could have made any significant difference in a not at fault accident...

    We can come up with ten more examples where the only thing that could have likely saved anyone anything was if the driver had exercised due care and caution.


    10:1 ratio, easy - probably closer to 20:1.


    Please tell me if you think I have that wrong.

  23. #62
    Senior Member edwardb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike223 View Post
    Ok, let's try this.

    For every example we can come up with where the harnesses did or could have made any significant difference in a not at fault accident...

    We can come up with ten more examples where the only thing that could have likely saved anyone anything was if the driver had exercised due care and caution.

    10:1 ratio, easy - probably closer to 20:1.

    Please tell me if you think I have that wrong.
    What's wrong is it's not either or. I don't think anyone would question the exercise due care and caution part. I also suspect most of us would agree not doing so is a major contributor to the accidents we see reported on here. But using that as a reason for not wearing the full harness is unwise, unsafe, and as I mentioned illegal. Just plain bad advice. How about we keep it simple. Do both. Wear the harness and drive with care and caution. It's not complicated and I remain surprised this is even a debate.
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  24. #63
    Senior Member RickP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike223 View Post

    Please tell me if you think I have that wrong.
    Oh my is my first reaction .....

    Hey, to each there own I suppose but since you asked and referred a sport bike to a roadster, I will stick with that analogy. And yes, I do ride.

    If you don't wear a helmet 100% of the time, you will increase your risk of a head injury 100% of the time, regardless of rider error or a no fault incident. I'm not saying a helmet will prevent ANY type of head injury in the event of an accident, it only lessens risk or chance. The same holds true when in an open cockpit roadster. Jeff mentioned an accident where the fault was due to another driver. Have you considered an equipment failure? Driveshaft letting loose (pole vault) or striking a curb in a turn and flipping the car? Tire failure, brake failure? If for whatever unforeseen scenario and the car comes to a complete stop while your body is still in motion, you will have wished lap, shoulder, and fifth strap were on.

    I want to further add, I would not want to sit in the passenger seat of one of these cars where the driver takes a "whatever" attitude with safety features. If he/she does not consider their own safety, what does he/she think about mine? Passenger roll bar, 5 point harness strapped in, fire bottle accessible, and all the other mentioned safety ideas mentioned in this thread.

    As Jeff K says "Just say'n"

  25. #64
    Senior Member RickP's Avatar
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    Oh wait, I'm not done.

    I will further the further....

    There are some who think their actions/inactions only effect them. Not the reality at all. Our actions/inactions effect us, our significant others, and loved ones and many others. My personal nightmare would be having someone other than me having to wipe my a.. for the remainder of my life due to negligence on my part. How selfish.

  26. #65
    Seasoned Citizen NAZ's Avatar
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    I've never seen where a properly worn 5-point restraint system created a safety issue. But you don't have to look very hard to see where they have saved lives. Been on my top twice -- you will never convince me that wearing a restraint system is not required.

    Nothing will eliminate ALL risk but incorporating and properly using proven risk mitigation devices will increase your chance of survival and lower your risk of injury. Debating that fact is an exercise in futility. Using good judgement is the most important risk mitigation and good judgement begins before you even start the car. Using the safety devices available is an example of good judgement.
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  27. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by NAZ View Post

    I've never seen where a properly worn 5-point restraint system created a safety issue.

    Using the safety devices available is an example of good judgement.

    Agreed.


    Let me give you a different example of sound judgement / advice.

    If somebody wants to take you for a ride *on the street* and insists that you need a race seat, harness, roll bar and fire bottle in the name of safety - politely decline.

  28. #67
    Senior Member RickP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike223 View Post
    If somebody wants to take you for a ride *on the street* and insists that you need a race seat, harness, roll bar and fire bottle in the name of safety - politely decline.
    Yikes man!

  29. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by RickP View Post
    Yikes man!
    That is exactly the advice I would offer my kids / anybodies' kids.

  30. #69
    Not a waxer Jeff Kleiner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike223 View Post


    Let me give you a different example of sound judgement / advice.

    If somebody wants to take you for a ride *on the street* and insists that you need a race seat, harness, roll bar and fire bottle in the name of safety - politely decline.
    So using that logic I can conclude that if someone asks me to put on a helmet before getting on a motorcycle with them it indicates that they plan to do something stupid.

    No need to reply further because I won't...I'll just agree to disagree and check out of this conversation.

    Cheers,
    Jeff

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    I don't really recommend getting on motorcycles with anyone either.

  32. #71
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    It's interesting to see this argument play out here. Various versions of this debate play out endlessly on motorcycle forums. I never would have expected there to be any debate about the use of shoulder harnesses (for example), but then again I'm an ATGATT type on the motorcycle (all the gear, all the time). The arguments that folks come up with to rationalize their choices to not use available safety gear are some of the most fascinating mental contortions of logic and confirmation bias you'll run across anywhere.
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  33. #72
    Seasoned Citizen NAZ's Avatar
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    Here in AZ we don't have a helmet law. I wholeheartedly support that - don't want the guberment telling me what to do. I believe you should use your own common sense (although sometimes common sense is not so common) and I really don't care if you choose to risk it all -- it's your choice and I truly do respect that. You won't find me supporting laws that regulate personal safety -- the key word is "personal" and that is up to each individual to cover their own @$$. I'm not the nurturing type -- not my responsibility.

    But when I ride I'm in the ATGATT camp -- helmet, gloves, and full leathers and I really don't give a hoot what anyone else thinks of how I look -- too old to care. And I ride a cruiser not some high performance corner carver so I don't wear that protective gear thinking that I might push the limit too far -- I like to think those days are behind me. I wear the safety gear because statistics show that I am at greater risk of injury riding a bike. I choose to mitigate the risk in a sensible manner. I raced motorcycles and have unloaded from the bike many times and sometimes it was not my own doing. I have broken bones, separated joints in a most painful way, and cut my self up bad and I really don't like the way that feels. When I see bikers ride in a t-shirt, shorts, and Jesus boots I just shake my head because I know there was a time that would have been me.

    So for those that like the wind in your face minimalist approach (car or bike) and nothing between you and the guardrail -- rock on brother. You'll find me strapped in and hunkered down under a plethora of safety devices designed to save my bacon in the unfortunate event I crash and burn once again. It's a whole lot more fun to survive and tell stories about that big crash than to lay in the ER while your family wonders why you were such a dumb@$$ taking these stupid risks. Yea, been there & done that too.
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  34. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnK View Post

    I'm an ATGATT type on the motorcycle (all the gear, all the time).
    That's perfect.

    Exactly what I was trying to say about "reasonable expectations".


    If I were in any way an ATGATT guy, this simply isn't the car I would be in - I don't really understand it at all in this car.

  35. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike223 View Post
    That's perfect.

    Exactly what I was trying to say about "reasonable expectations".


    If I were in any way an ATGATT guy, this simply isn't the car I would be in - I don't really understand it at all in this car.
    Put simply, it's about mitigating the risks you can and then deciding if you can live with the ones you can't. Using the fact that these cars are inherently less safe than a DD as some sort of rationalization to not use basic safety features like shoulder harnesses is, well... just dumb. Sorry to be so blunt but your "logic" is anything but.
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  36. #75
    JohnK's Avatar
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    NAZ I'm with you 100% on helmet laws. I'd never imagine getting on a motorcycle without one but I'm not a fan of legislating common sense. That said, I do resent having to pay for people's stupid life choices when my insurance premiums go up because someone exercised their right to feel the wind in their hair (coupled with their "right" to not have any health insurance)
    MkIV Roadster build: Gen 2 Coyote, IRS, TKO600. Ordered 10/24/18. Delivered 1/29/19. Engine installed 8/8/21. First start 9/12/21. First go-kart 9/17/21. Off to paint 4/11/22. Back from paint 12/30/22. Build thread here.

  37. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnK View Post
    Put simply, it's about mitigating the risks you can and then deciding if you can live with the ones you can't. Using the fact that these cars are inherently less safe than a DD as some sort of rationalization to not use basic safety features like shoulder harnesses is, well... just dumb. Sorry to be so blunt but your "logic" is anything but.

    No worries - the harness issue was just a side track to what I couldn't get straight in my head.

    I was more trying to figure out how completely people thought they were mitigating their risks - or at least pose that question as food for thought.


    As soon as I saw the concept of ATGATT I figured out we weren't all thinking about exactly the same things.
    Last edited by mike223; 02-20-2019 at 01:54 PM.

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  39. #77
    Senior Member Avalanche325's Avatar
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    First of all, I want to thank all of you. Usually conversations like this on forums goes south in a hurry. It is fun to have a nice debate about this stuff.

    Mike, here is what I think about your ratio theory.
    Any time that a lap belt is actually needed, the shoulder belts are needed. It doesn't matter who's fault it is. Front impact and you chew the steering wheel. Side impact and your torso is going to fly sideways which can cause a head impact, back damage, or internal injury. So, shoulder belts needed to lap belt needed 1:1.
    Of course a lap belt is better than nothing, but if you need one you are in desperate need of the other.

    Here is what I think of motorcycle helmets.
    If a person decides not to wear one that should make them take on extra liability. Here is how I think it should work:
    1. Motorcycle rider decides not to wear a helmet.
    2. Car driver is a fault in an accident. Let's say runs a red light.
    3. Motorcycle rider dies of a head injury.
    4. The car driver SHOULD NOT be charged with vehicular manslaughter. They should be charged with running a red light and causing an accident, the same as if the motorcycle rider got up and walked away. The mistake of the car driver should not elevate from a traffic violation to a life changing event, because the motorcycle rider made a decision to not use what is known to be correct equipment.
    With freedom comes responsibility.

  40. #78
    Boydster's Avatar
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    I have my roadster, not done yet, but getting there. And I ride a Triumph Rocket 3. I like vehicles with punch. Full face every time w/ long clothes, full belts all the time. No good reason not to, except you wanna be a cool rebel.
    ---Boyd---
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  41. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Avalanche325 View Post
    First of all, I want to thank all of you. Usually conversations like this on forums goes south in a hurry. It is fun to have a nice debate about this stuff.

    Mike, here is what I think about your ratio theory.
    Any time that a lap belt is actually needed, the shoulder belts are needed. It doesn't matter who's fault it is. Front impact and you chew the steering wheel. Side impact and your torso is going to fly sideways which can cause a head impact, back damage, or internal injury. So, shoulder belts needed to lap belt needed 1:1.
    Of course a lap belt is better than nothing, but if you need one you are in desperate need of the other.

    Here is what I think of motorcycle helmets.
    If a person decides not to wear one that should make them take on extra liability. Here is how I think it should work:
    1. Motorcycle rider decides not to wear a helmet.
    2. Car driver is a fault in an accident. Let's say runs a red light.
    3. Motorcycle rider dies of a head injury.
    4. The car driver SHOULD NOT be charged with vehicular manslaughter. They should be charged with running a red light and causing an accident, the same as if the motorcycle rider got up and walked away. The mistake of the car driver should not elevate from a traffic violation to a life changing event, because the motorcycle rider made a decision to not use what is known to be correct equipment.
    With freedom comes responsibility.

    I'd like to thank everyone too - and offer apologies to any and all who found my thoughts too far out of bounds to further discuss.

    I could not, for the life of me, figure out why it was complete heresy to question (at all) the overall effectiveness of harnesses in these cars.

    Frankly, I had written it off - if you actually ever need the lap belt, you've already gotten off into something I don't think there are any acceptable answers for (in street car).


    But it makes complete sense in the context of an ATGATT policy.


    And your lists regarding the ratio theory and motorcycle helmets shows me that our thought processes are somewhat similar.

  42. #80
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    I cant help but comment on the helmet thought... as a teenager who raced motor cross... I took my bike out on a local dirt site.. one of the only times ever without a helmut.. it was just a cruise dont you know?.. just for a casual ride... after the fact they were pretty amazed and said there was less than a 5% chance I lived, could walk, or wasnt a vegetable ... I crashed at over 100 at daytona road racing a few years later with a helmet.. and walked away with several layers of my butt cheek worn away even with protective gear, new leathers and essentially a near totaled bike... wear your helmet... and if you are pushing your car.. put one on... a top rated race helmet...with your five point harness... you can put almost anything back together.. but not your brain pan... and believe me... the stresses of accidents at speed are tough to get thru as a young bullet proof man... let alone most of us...

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