New to the forums but an avid Subaru enthusiast for the last 16+ years. Also a big fan of what F5R is doing with these Kits, but not so much the styling of the 818. Truthfully it’s probably one of the only things that has caused me pause in purchasing one...
It so happens that I have an extensive background in OEM automotive design, so I eventually came to the question: why not completely redesign the body myself into something a bit more sexy? Well the main thing is the cost involved in undertaking a project of that magnitude. It’s surprisingly affordable to do, but still not something I could justify as an individual.
That being said, I wondered what the community would have to say. There is certainly the option to produce several bodies for only a small fraction more, so if 10 or more members had the same interest the expense could be spread amongst the group to both develop the design, tooling, and the bodies themselves for under $3k per person. The bigger the group the lower the cost obviously.
Of course the biggest peice of the puzzle would be coming up with a design that was desireable to everyone in said group, which I have no doubt we could achieve. But for starters it’s worth asking the question to all that will listen:
Given the option, would you be more interested in a style that was more “replica” in nature, for example a series 1 Lotus Elise/Exige-esque, or... something that pays homage to the Subaru the vehicle is based on, perhaps derived from the recent STI concept?
Last edited by Korperwulf; 03-01-2019 at 11:52 AM.
I could definitely be down with that! Any other suggestions? Honestly, if we get enough interest in any style or several, we could make it worth our while to pursue them!
I'm not looking for a replica, but something with more aggressive and modern styling cues that is easier to put together would be awesome. I actually like the front end of the coupe (the center insert could use some slight adjustments). It's the rear to me that seems a little uninspired. I have the Harley818 rear bumper which is a little more sophisticated, but the side sails over the wheels and the overall back of the car just seem a little flat.
Talk about stirring the pot... But in a good way. One thing you'll find is that every one will want to tweak the design to suit their own vision of how the car should look like. It's the nature of the beast lol .
Personaly I'd like to see somthing more in the direction of the Ford GT ( pure sex on wheels ).
You would really need to narrow down your focus group. 818S, R, or C people. Doing all three just increases cost. Doing the R is probably the cheapest, since there is no roof, side windows, or windscreen really, but has the smallest market unfortunately. I am in 818R group but I think I would modify my cage to get that body style to work .
Last edited by Hobby Racer; 03-01-2019 at 05:39 PM.
I'm not looking for a replica, but something with more aggressive and modern styling cues that is easier to put together would be awesome. I actually like the front end of the coupe (the center insert could use some slight adjustments). It's the rear to me that seems a little uninspired. I have the Harley818 rear bumper which is a little more sophisticated, but the side sails over the wheels and the overall back of the car just seem a little flat.
I was definitely thinking along the same lines… Particularly regarding making it easier to assemble. That is primarily why I reference the Lotus. Super simple front and rear clamshells, no extra parting lines and complicated hinges.
Talk about stirring the pot... But in a good way. One thing you'll find is that every one will want to tweak the design to suit their own vision of how the car should look like. It's the nature of the beast lol .
Personaly I'd like to see somthing more in the direction of the Ford GT ( pure sex on wheels ).
As much as I absolutely love the Ford GT, I’m not sure the proportions of the chassis would lend themselves well to Supercar styling. Far better suited for a GTM than an 818.
You would really need to narrow down your focus group. 818S, R, or C people. Doing all three just increases cost. Doing the R is probably the cheapest, since there is no roof, side windows, or windscreen really, but has the smallest market unfortunately. I am in 818R group but I think I would modify my cage to get that body style to work .
For my part, I prefer a hardtop so it would be an 818C. But if there was a good number of people interested in either the R or the S, it wouldn’t be out of the question to feign the kit as a modular unit that accepted all three versions.
I do agree that the current styling of the 818 leaves lots to be desired. I like the stratos style idea, but I'm really not interested in a replica or tribute car. The problem with them is simply that no matter how much time, effort and money you put into one, somebody is going to be rude and point out the fact that it isn't the real thing. That's mean but it happens. With the 818, the style is at least unique if not ground breaking. There are some hideous elements like the fender/door interface. Also, the license plate attachment could have been handled much better as well as the tail lights. The side sail vents should've been bigger and positioned differently. The front grille is funky too. But all this gives platform for improvement. Otoh, I've seen many similar kits recently that look very good. Reincarnation spotlights many.
I say do it! We could all use a better look.
I do agree that the current styling of the 818 leaves lots to be desired. I like the stratos style idea, but I'm really not interested in a replica or tribute car. The problem with them is simply that no matter how much time, effort and money you put into one, somebody is going to be rude and point out the fact that it isn't the real thing. That's mean but it happens. With the 818, the style is at least unique if not ground breaking. There are some hideous elements like the fender/door interface. Also, the license plate attachment could have been handled much better as well as the tail lights. The side sail vents should've been bigger and positioned differently. The front grille is funky too. But all this gives platform for improvement. Otoh, I've seen many similar kits recently that look very good. Reincarnation spotlights many.
I say do it! We could all use a better look.
Definitely agree regarding the “tribute” or replica car. Even if you manage to fool some people, you’ll always be a poser and people who know better will call you out.
Again, the goal here is to gauge interest and get an idea of what people would actually be interested enough in to potentially share the expense of development if it’s a cool replica that people will chip in for, I’m totally down! But for me ideally it would be a unique design that respects what the vehicle actually is.
I have been running a small aftermarket body kit company for the past couple of years as a side hustle to my OEM design job, and I’ve learned that the single most limiting factor will always be the cost of development. I can sketch, render, and even do relatively accurate 3D digital models of unique designs, but making them into physical parts that can be reproduced and distributed at any volume costs several thousands of dollars. Several thousands shared among several people though, that’s a much more palatable prospect!
Body fitment on these cars is about 1/3 of the entire project. Before I would consider abandoning my present FFR body, any proposed replacement, I'd have to be very smitten by your new design. So far, the specter of a new, different body seems attractive, but lots of details need to be added. For someone just beginning their project, the option seems more palatable. Personally, I've massaged nearly every panel to be more to my liking, so I'm not looking to change anything at this point. As I understand it, the design was put up to the public before nailing down this version. There were several better looking proposals, but this is what FFR decided to produce.
Less front overhang would be nice. Keep the roof scoop. Rear quarter windows are a joke, since the rear bulkhead obscures all but 4" of usable window.
The Statos is an interesting car for comparison to the 818. Its design is bases on the premise of Form follows Function. As F5R's main focus, as its name implies, is racing. As such, with wind tunnel testing, the best design is one that lends itself best to being used for racing, and is the easiest/least expensive to produce.
I would imagine that to make the front and back able to be "Clam Shell" like would add weight, but I agree that it would look better and make the build easier.
Interesting that I ran across this today. I've recently purchased a roller 818S (not delivered yet) and have been planning on extensive body modification. Obviously if we could agree on a vision, I'd be happy to go in on the cost.
The comment above about the Ford GT being sex on wheels is spot on, I would love to just have a replica of that. but also true is the statement that the body proportions are wrong. I've been crunching numbers for a few days, and the Length/Width (2.23 for 818 and 2.33 for GT) and Wheelbase/Track ratios (1.613 for 818 and 1.597 for GT) are nearly spot on. The problem is the height. The 818 is 20% taller than a Ford GT but it is 10% shorter and 10% narrower. This leads to a Length to Height of 2.94 for the 818 vs a 4.27 for a Ford GT. However I think you could help the ratio with a wide body kit (2" extra on each side) and extending the nose and rear each about 4.5". This would make the new width 73.5", the new length 164", and result in an update Length/height ratio of 3.12. This ratio is on par with an Audi R8, which is not a terrible looking car. You obviously have to make sure that whatever styling cues you use don't look weird due to the wheelbase being too short for the cars length.
For reference here is a sketch I worked up pretty quick, that includes a wide-body kit, but not any lengthening of the nose.
And here is a picture I found the other day that I thought would serve as good inspiration for a hardtop version. It appears to be exige based. The ratios on an Exige are much close to a 818 than traditional supercars. The Length/Height is the 3.54 on the Exige, which is pretty close to the 3.12 I stated as achievable for the 818.
All of my dimensions for the 818 are coming from the FFR website, although it doesn't really look like it is 52.5" tall, which is what they have listed. I'll have to measure mine once it gets here.
Well gang, I like the shape of the 818, especially for the money. Yes, a one piece body would make things easier and there are always opinions of how we could improve upon the body quality and design. There are many body shell makers around the world that can make up just about any sexy body you would want. What car have you ever owned, that you didn't want to change something about the looks?
The 70 911 I once owned, would have been loved more if it had RSR flairs, but it didn't and I still wish I still had it. My 70 240Z was a great car, but always wanted headlight covers and more aero trim, but I sold it before those additions and still wish I had it. Im satisfied with my 818s but want it to keep evolving with little improvements.
Here's a really dirty sketch of what adding 4.5" to each end would look like without any other changes. Not sure it is really feasible because the front overhand is getting too long. I'll have to double check the length i extended it and make sure I didn't make a mistake on the virtual ruler.
The problem with them is simply that no matter how much time, effort and money you put into one, somebody is going to be rude and point out the fact that it isn't the real thing. That's mean but it happens.
This is a hard-top based off of the removable top for the S. I think this provides a better profile and is what I have been planning on. This one is also stretched 4.5" front and back.
I remember coming across this at some point... Definitely one of the most ambitious builds and very impressive show of skill and craftsmanship. Unfortunately its not very practical to reproduce, and the styling is so polarizing that it would probably only appeal to a tiny number of people. At least they attempted to use the BRZ headlight... Slight nod to the 818s heritage, or whatever.
A while back I actually did a quick and rough sketch of what the 818 could look like derived from an actual Subaru concept that I was fairly satisfied with.
Sounds like a great idea! One thing I found while building my 818S is the body mounts are terrible. As the body was being mounted and finished I realized the support for the panels was only strong for the bottom of the side sails. All the rest of the mounts are basically for a track car and will not support the panels on a normal wisconsin street.
The complete nose needed all new supporting as well as the front fenders and the rear bumper.
Inner wheel wells are another area of redesign and air ducting for the rear and front radiator.
On May 1, 2016 I started the body and today almost three years later I’m about half way finished with this Supported body and finish work.
I understand the time dedication to a project and the resources needed and found the only person who cares about my helicopter is me. In saying this, the magnitude of building a complete new body and and all the associated components will no doubt involve the interior.
If only 1 person is doing all this work it is a huge undertaking, if it is all hired out the costs to finish could be exponential
The idea is great as other options would be available, and I might sound like a negative attitude, I preferr to call it a realistic attitude. And for that reason I am out!
I'm very interested in a redesigned body. I personally don't need a coupe. I've driven this car every single summer since 2015. Even in Michigan, it's way too hot as a roadster. Radiator in the front and engine in the back, plus negative pressure in the cabin creates a super heated cabin. So nice when it's 55-70F. I can't imagine having a roof without A/C in the dead of summer.
Korperwulf, where are you located? There is a composite business here in Holland, MI and they're building an America's cup sailboat. It's a friend of a friend. They can do full carbon parts and it doesn't come at Aerospace/F1 prices. https://www.hollandsentinel.com/news...n-new-location
I've done extensive modifications to my 818 body, currently working on integrating R1 headlights. The problem for me is that the original design is not congruent. I'm no designer, that's for sure. I'm not sure my changes, which are never finished, are making it a whole lot more congruent either. They're at least individualizing it.
The blue 3D renderings are phenomenal. Worst case I cut the roof and make it a targa top.
Even better if you can make use of standard car parts where possible for the finishing details. For example, subaru impreza dashboard, brz door cards, front fender liners from a newer civic fit pretty well in the front wheel well areas, etc.
Thanks John! As an actual design exercise I’d produce maybe 5-6 unique concepts and let the group vote on the preferred direction, then start refining from there based on member feedback. Honestly tho, if there arent at least 10 peopl genuinley interested than it’s probably not worth the effort outside of just enjoying the process. I realize the forums probably command a relatively small audience, but I expect it’s at least a focused audience, so I just need to be patient.
I'm very interested in a redesigned body. I personally don't need a coupe. I've driven this car every single summer since 2015. Even in Michigan, it's way too hot as a roadster. Radiator in the front and engine in the back, plus negative pressure in the cabin creates a super heated cabin. So nice when it's 55-70F. I can't imagine having a roof without A/C in the dead of summer.
Korperwulf, where are you located? There is a composite business here in Holland, MI and they're building an America's cup sailboat. It's a friend of a friend. They can do full carbon parts and it doesn't come at Aerospace/F1 prices. https://www.hollandsentinel.com/news...n-new-location
I've done extensive modifications to my 818 body, currently working on integrating R1 headlights. The problem for me is that the original design is not congruent. I'm no designer, that's for sure. I'm not sure my changes, which are never finished, are making it a whole lot more congruent either. They're at least individualizing it.
The blue 3D renderings are phenomenal. Worst case I cut the roof and make it a targa top.
Even better if you can make use of standard car parts where possible for the finishing details. For example, subaru impreza dashboard, brz door cards, front fender liners from a newer civic fit pretty well in the front wheel well areas, etc.
Thanks for the compliment. I can see your point about the coupe. You’d need to do some pretty extensive firewall reinforcement and add HVAC to make the coupe habitable. That said, a topless version of this design wouldn’t be a stretch, maybe with a removable hard top/spyder style soft top! I like the use of OEM panels to finish it off for sure, although a complete interior design exercise would be a lot of fun!
I am located in So Cal, but it would be interesting to see what this boat builder would be able to do to help us out! Maybe you’d be willing to reach out and get a ball park estimate on what something like this might cost? Certainly give us a more tangible target. I’ve certainly got some contacts, but I’m always open for new options.
Thanks for the compliment. I can see your point about the coupe. You’d need to do some pretty extensive firewall reinforcement and add HVAC to make the coupe habitable. That said, a topless version of this design wouldn’t be a stretch, maybe with a removable hard top/spyder style soft top! I like the use of OEM panels to finish it off for sure, although a complete interior design exercise would be a lot of fun!
I am located in So Cal, but it would be interesting to see what this boat builder would be able to do to help us out! Maybe you’d be willing to reach out and get a ball park estimate on what something like this might cost? Certainly give us a more tangible target. I’ve certainly got some contacts, but I’m always open for new options.
I would be happy to ask Composite Builders for an estimate once the design is a little further along.
I'm definitely liking these renderings and have always liked that new sti concept. For me, it largely comes down to the cost compared to what FFR already offers. I really like the look of the new 818 front end, I'm ok with the back end and could see myself getting the hard top in a few years (currently have an S). That's not to say I wouldn't get an entirely new body if it was available but it would be tough to justify spending more than what the FFR hard top costs ($3.5k). I also feel there will be a lot of hidden cost in all the small details associated with a new body - head lights, tail lights, modifying existing pick-up points on the chassis, interior panels, etc. With that said, keep doing what you're doing - it's looking good.
Originally Posted by Ajzride
The previous picture was mis proportioned. Here is a coupe with 4.5" added front and back.
The engineer in me can't help but ask what your approach would be to lengthen the wheelbase? Are we talking about cutting the car in half and extending it? It's possible but I think unlikely that several builders could replicate a change that drastic and get good fitment on an extended body. I'm not trying to be negative but just thinking through some of the major details. From the standpoint of using existing pick-up points for the body and doors or designing new bracketry/attachments, it can be difficult to get uniformity across multiple builds (depending on the degree of modification). Have you thought of using the GTM as a starting point to get better proportions?
I'm definitely liking these renderings and have always liked that new sti concept. For me, it largely comes down to the cost compared to what FFR already offers. I really like the look of the new 818 front end, I'm ok with the back end and could see myself getting the hard top in a few years (currently have an S). That's not to say I wouldn't get an entirely new body if it was available but it would be tough to justify spending more than what the FFR hard top costs ($3.5k). I also feel there will be a lot of hidden cost in all the small details associated with a new body - head lights, tail lights, modifying existing pick-up points on the chassis, interior panels, etc. With that said, keep doing what you're doing - it's looking good.
The engineer in me can't help but ask what your approach would be to lengthen the wheelbase? Are we talking about cutting the car in half and extending it? It's possible but I think unlikely that several builders could replicate a change that drastic and get good fitment on an extended body. I'm not trying to be negative but just thinking through some of the major details. From the standpoint of using existing pick-up points for the body and doors or designing new bracketry/attachments, it can be difficult to get uniformity across multiple builds (depending on the degree of modification). Have you thought of using the GTM as a starting point to get better proportions?
The sketch was a concept of lengthening the body without lengthening the wheelbase. In essence increasing the overhangs. And yes the GTM has much better proportions and that is what I was looking for when I came across a deal on an 818 that I decided was too good to pass up.
Did a minor edit to one of the renders just to flesh it all the way out. The headlight unit was borrowed from the Polaris Slingshot (Canadian spec) and just sort of placed over the surface. Not sure I like it, but maybe when more integrated it will work. Otherwise mostly just experimenting with side intake shapes and trim details like the rear wing, side mirrors (cameras?), accent color, etc.
I want to keep exploring completely unique body styles, but I needed to see this first. When I have more time, Ill sketch up something new. Hopefully within a few weeks we can have a variety of designs to start selecting from and gauging interest.
Interesting item I've noticed while thinking about this exercise, is how the automotive design concepts have changed from smooth, free flowing shapes and lines, to a more angular shape with sharp lines (note examples below). Not saying it's a bad thing, just an interesting evolution.
Interesting item I've noticed while thinking about this exercise, is how the automotive design concepts have changed from smooth, free flowing shapes and lines, to a more angular shape with sharp lines (note examples below). Not saying it's a bad thing, just an interesting evolution.
I agree with you to certain extent... Truth is a lot of the form languages we seen in the latest concept cars is hugely driven by advances in manufacturing and materials. In the mid-nineties for example we saw a lot of soft, organic forms because it was easier for car makers to keep toloerences between body panels if they weren’t contending with sharp creases, etc. Now I think things have advanced so far that there’s room for a far wider variety of forms, so you’ll see hyper faceted forms from brands like Lamborghini and Lexus, while brands like Mercedes and Aston Martin have been leaning toward far more organic and sculptural forms. There’s obviously beauty in diversity and I think consumers now demand greater verity in options.
It's more of a case where a particular style runs its course. Hard edge today, soft tomorrow and so on. The panel "fit" expertise has nothing to do with it.
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Originally Posted by John Dol
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