FormaCars

Visit our community sponsor

Thanks Thanks:  2
Likes Likes:  5
Results 1 to 20 of 20

Thread: Disappointing First Impressions: Advice Needed

  1. #1
    Senior Member Alphamacaroon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2019
    Location
    Richland, WA
    Posts
    457
    Post Thanks / Like

    Disappointing First Impressions: Advice Needed

    Hi all,

    Placed an order for my Coupe in Mid January and finally received shipment last Tuesday. Obviously extremely excited to get started so I inventoried my parts the day after and noted a number of items on the Parts Order List. I was expecting some parts would be on the POL so I set it aside and went on to inventory the rest of the kit. All-in-all the inventory went smoothly except that I was sent hardware for a 3-link even though I ordered the IRS— no biggie, I Emailed the factory and was told they would send me out the proper parts.

    Next I started to go through the manual and plan out what areas I could complete with the parts I had, and that's when it hit me— by the time I got to page 175 I realized the only thing I could actually do was install the power steering rack.

    Front suspension? Nope— lower control arm on backorder
    Steering tie rod ends? Nope— backorder
    Front Brakes? Can't do much without the lower control arm
    IRS? Nope— sent me the wrong parts
    Fuel System? Nope— fuel tank on backorder

    So I figure well, at least I have the power steering rack, so I'll put that in. I start into it and notice the bushings that came inside the rack are too large. After 15 minutes of trying to figure out what the hell I was doing wrong I noticed something on the POL— yep you guessed it, rack bushings on backorder.

    Needless to say I'm extremely disappointed. Need some advice:

    1. Is this a normal experience, or did I just get unlucky? Should I ***** and moan to FFR? If I did, would it make any difference?
    2. What can I work on? Other than the pedals (which I think I have most of the parts for), everything beyond that point seems like it builds on the other parts I can't complete and/or makes it difficult to access previous assemblies. I don't want to paint myself into any corners.


    Any advice would be greatly appreciated!

  2. #2
    Not a waxer Jeff Kleiner's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Bloomington, Indiana
    Posts
    8,003
    Post Thanks / Like
    You have a couple thousand holes to drill.

    Jeff

  3. Likes UpNorth, RMB, Misterfubar liked this post
  4. #3
    Senior Member SSNK4US's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2016
    Location
    Bakersfield, CA
    Posts
    393
    Post Thanks / Like
    Leave it to Jeff to see the light
    If everything seems under control, you’re just not going fast enough....

    Build thread

    MKIV complete kit # 9395 delivered 7/31/18

  5. #4
    Senior Member edwardb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Lake Orion, Michigan
    Posts
    10,547
    Post Thanks / Like
    Well, the POL is part of the experience, but does sound like you got hit a little hard. By all means you're going to want to establish regular follow-up with Factory Five so that you keep the pressure on plus know where you're at with each of the parts. I would suggest a little different attitude than "***** and moan to FFR? If I did, would it make any difference?" though. I've had good success working with a list of issues (POL + any missing or damaged parts) that's emailed back and forth with the current status. Best IMO if you work with one person, in my case for my Coupe build the person I worked with when I bought the kit. Approach it positively and professionally, and in my experience you'll get the same in return. Normally they can give you an ETA on the various parts, and you can plan your build accordingly. In my experience you'll have everything in a month or two and it will be a distant memory. In the meantime, yes do the pedal box. And start fitting and drilling aluminum panels like Jeff said. Plenty of work there. Good luck.
    Build 1: Mk3 Roadster #5125. Sold 11/08/2014. Build 2: Mk4 Roadster #7750. Sold 04/10/2017. Build Thread
    Build 3: Mk4 Roadster 20th Anniversary #8674. Sold 09/07/2020. Build Thread and Video. Build 4: Gen 3 Type 65 Coupe #59. Gen 3 Coyote. Legal 03/04/2020. Build Thread and Video
    Build 5: 35 Hot Rod Truck #138. LS3 and 4L65E auto. Rcvd 01/05/2021. Legal 04/20/2023. Build Thread. Sold 11/9/2023.

  6. #5
    Senior Member CDXXVII's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Santa Clarita, CA.
    Posts
    756
    Post Thanks / Like
    Like Jeff said.

    Get all of your aluminum sorted, drilled, deburred, massaged, and temporarily assembled. Sheet metal work is tedious but a lot easier to do before you clutter the frame with everything else. Do not permanently fasten any sheet metal until you are certain that it will not get in your way later. Even if the FFR Manual tell you to do so.

    Time to buy a whole lot of these.

    Clecos


    #30 Drill Bits
    Last edited by CDXXVII; 03-17-2019 at 08:23 PM.
    F5R #7841: Anniversary Edition MK4, Ford Racing 427, Edelbrock EFI, Gas-N Pipes, Stainless Headers, TKO600, 3.31 Moser 3-Link, 17" Halibrands

  7. #6
    Senior Member Alphamacaroon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2019
    Location
    Richland, WA
    Posts
    457
    Post Thanks / Like
    Thanks all— I'll stop feeling sorry for myself This is my second kit car build— my first one was about 15 years ago and about the only thing I distinctly remember from it was the weeks of drilling and riveting. And then, more drilling and riveting. So I guess I might as well just get it done. Like eating your veggies before you get to the steak.

  8. Likes Geoff H liked this post
  9. #7
    Senior Member CraigS's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Blacksburg, Va
    Posts
    4,707
    Post Thanks / Like
    Do the drilling but not all the installing. For access while building leave off the top and outer driver footbox panels, the entire rear cockpit panel, the trunk floor panels, the top tunnel panel, F panels and elephant ears.
    FFR MkII, 408W, Tremec TKO 500, 2015 IRS, DA QA1s, Forte front bar, APE hardtop.

  10. #8

    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Norton, MA USA earth
    Posts
    3,325
    Post Thanks / Like
    With a little careful planning, you can install all the back aluminum as well. Makes it hard to plug in the tail lights but you can put in access holes.
    mike

  11. #9
    Senior Member edwardb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Lake Orion, Michigan
    Posts
    10,547
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by CraigS View Post
    Do the drilling but not all the installing. For access while building leave off the top and outer driver footbox panels, the entire rear cockpit panel, the trunk floor panels, the top tunnel panel, F panels and elephant ears.
    It's a Coupe (first post) so the parts are somewhat different. But your point, and others that are similar, are the same. Use lots of clecos and selective permanent attachments until the underlying work is completed.
    Build 1: Mk3 Roadster #5125. Sold 11/08/2014. Build 2: Mk4 Roadster #7750. Sold 04/10/2017. Build Thread
    Build 3: Mk4 Roadster 20th Anniversary #8674. Sold 09/07/2020. Build Thread and Video. Build 4: Gen 3 Type 65 Coupe #59. Gen 3 Coyote. Legal 03/04/2020. Build Thread and Video
    Build 5: 35 Hot Rod Truck #138. LS3 and 4L65E auto. Rcvd 01/05/2021. Legal 04/20/2023. Build Thread. Sold 11/9/2023.

  12. #10
    Senior Member Alphamacaroon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2019
    Location
    Richland, WA
    Posts
    457
    Post Thanks / Like
    I will pre-drill and deburr but probably won't put a single rivet in until I'm done with everything else leading up to it.

  13. #11
    Senior Member John Dol's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Gorham, ME
    Posts
    1,522
    Post Thanks / Like
    In addition to the drill, cleco, drill, cleco remove deburr rinse repeat, it also gives you time to think about installing other things, and where they will go.
    The more you plan ahead the neater the end result will be, and the less rework you will have to do.
    i.e. my wiring would have been neater if I decided to put in marine wipers, door poppers, RT turn signal and stuff like that from day one.
    Not that its bad but it doesn't look like EdwardB's.

    John
    Finished the "My Coupe, my way" project.

    http://s956.photobucket.com/albums/ae46/jdcoupe1969/
    Coupe #386,17" Team III 245 FR 315 RR, 3-link, T5, 4 wheel disk, power brakes/steering. Sniper EFI
    First start Sept. 18 2013 First go kart Sept 19 2013

  14. #12
    Senior Member Alphamacaroon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2019
    Location
    Richland, WA
    Posts
    457
    Post Thanks / Like
    Speaking of Clecos, rivets and deburring:

    1. In my first car (Ultima GTR) I think I maybe used 2-3 of them at a time, but I tend to see people using a lot of them. Don't I really just need one in each opposite corner and maybe a couple others for extra safekeeping? Or does the aluminum move around a lot with just a few? I was using the hand tightened pins, so maybe the spring loaded ones are different?

    2. In terms of deburring, what surface do you actually deburr? Do you use a countersink-chamfer style or a hand-held swivel type? Technically there are 4 surfaces that you could deburr, and probably the worst of them is the inside of the frame— which would be a lot of work with a handheld blind swivel type deburring tool. I've also read that many aluminum homebuilt (unpressurized) aircraft builders don't like deburring because any sort of a chamfer (accidental or intentional) in the skin or frame is considered a weakness.

    3. How do people generally do their drilling? Do you drill both aluminum and frame in one go? Or do you punch out on the drill press first then use that as a guide to drill the frame? On my first car I did them both together, and it worked, but I always wondered if it was "proper"

    4. For people who drill the aluminum separate from the frame, have any of you used a hand operated punch instead of a drill? Do they work well? Or do they dull pretty quickly?

    Edit: Sorry, I suppose these questions might have already been answered elsewhere, so I'll look around too.
    Last edited by Alphamacaroon; 03-18-2019 at 03:31 PM.

  15. #13
    Senior Member edwardb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Lake Orion, Michigan
    Posts
    10,547
    Post Thanks / Like
    My takes:

    1. You'll get lots of opinions on this. I use a lot of them. I probably have 100+ of the 1/8-inch size and 15 or so of the 3/16-inch size. For the panels, they're normally all 1/8-inch. I put them in each hole as I drill, typically on each corner of a piece, for example, and then the rest with it held in place. When it comes time to permanently mount, I put one usually in nearly all the holes, and then replace with rivets as I go. You'll find guys that work similarly, others that do the whole job with way less. Others that use self-tapping screws instead of clecos. Clecos are relatively cheap, so frankly I don't get why some get emotional about this question. Whatever works for you.

    2. You'll want to deburr anywhere it's needed. But mainly on the back side of panels you've drilled through. That's where you get the most burrs. There are dedicated tools for this. But for this work, I just use a sharp larger size drill bit, like 1/2 or 5/8-inch. Just a twist with it in my fingers clears aluminum very easily.

    3. I lay out the drill pattern on the aluminum panel, drill that (and deburr), then set in place and drill the rest, putting a cleco in each hole as I go. No right answer on this one either. Whatever works best for you.
    Build 1: Mk3 Roadster #5125. Sold 11/08/2014. Build 2: Mk4 Roadster #7750. Sold 04/10/2017. Build Thread
    Build 3: Mk4 Roadster 20th Anniversary #8674. Sold 09/07/2020. Build Thread and Video. Build 4: Gen 3 Type 65 Coupe #59. Gen 3 Coyote. Legal 03/04/2020. Build Thread and Video
    Build 5: 35 Hot Rod Truck #138. LS3 and 4L65E auto. Rcvd 01/05/2021. Legal 04/20/2023. Build Thread. Sold 11/9/2023.

  16. Thanks TimC thanked for this post
  17. #14
    Not a waxer Jeff Kleiner's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Bloomington, Indiana
    Posts
    8,003
    Post Thanks / Like
    While I won't discourage the guys who like to go all porcupine with clecos on their panels it's not really necessary IMHO. If the panel is laying "happy" just a few as you mentioned will do. Undoubtedly there will be a few places where the extra persuasion of additional clecos will be helpful---even necessary at times---to get intersecting panels to play nice with each other but those are the exception rather than the norm. I drill the aluminum with it backed up on plywood or a block of wood using hand held high speed pneumatic or cordless drills. Drilling into the wood at high speed pretty much eliminates the need for deburring of the aluminum. Once the aluminum is drilled I place it on the chassis and drill the steel or adjoining panel.

    Jeff

  18. #15
    Senior Member Alphamacaroon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2019
    Location
    Richland, WA
    Posts
    457
    Post Thanks / Like
    Thanks all, that really helps. I was worried you were going to say, "no you need to deburr the inside of the frame". I thought I read somewhere once that if you don't deburr the outer blind side, the rivet can get hung up on a chip, not seat properly, and loosen up over time. But that always seemed like overkill to me. Thanks again!

  19. #16
    Mark Eaton's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Location
    Medford, Oregon
    Posts
    752
    Post Thanks / Like
    Alphamacaroon, Don't get bummed out there is a TON of things you can do while waiting for those POL parts! On the topic of panels, how are you going to treat them? Rattle can paint? Powder coat? You need to put something on them. Also, there are about 100,000 little parts that need to be painted or powder coated. I recommend powder coating and doing it yourself. Buy an old oven and a gun from Eastwood, its a lot of fun. What about your lights? You going with the halogen or upgrade to LED? Also, your RF harness probably needs some modifications. What about your engine/tranny/clutch, all put together and ready to roll? Lots to do... Heater, wipers, radio, extra lights, fire suppression system, all things you can start working on or planning for while you wait. You certainly don't need to follow the manual for this build.
    MK4 #9130 , complete kit, arrived 8/10/2017, Street Legal 2/14/2020.
    DART SHP 347, EFI, TKO600, IRS
    http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...n-Build-Thread

  20. #17
    East Coast Speed Machines Erik W. Treves's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Huntsville, Al
    Posts
    2,102
    Post Thanks / Like
    Seems like everyone has the right idea when it comes to back orders.. as everyone said and you know since you have build one before... knock out the aluminum... shoot you could even fit the body honestly.. the nose takes a bit to get on there right..

    on your list might I offer some thoughts that maybe might at least get you working the order you wanted after you get done with all the panels... mainly my goal is to empty a complete box when I start building... but anyway

    Front suspension? Nope— lower control arm on backorder - so put everything on except the lower control arms... you can build the spindle, install hub, install disk and then install brake and attach the upper control arm (fun ball joint installation) .. install upper end of the shock after you put it all together... it won't be done and you will need to support it... but it will be a lot closer This will also

    Steering tie rod ends? Nope— backorder - put the steering rack in anyway.

    Front Brakes? Can't do much without the lower control arm - sure... see above.

    IRS? Nope— sent me the wrong parts - meh... install pumpkin>? put bushings in if you have them and at least get that dude in the hole

    Fuel System? Nope— fuel tank on backorder - nothing says you have start at the back... start running your fuel lines form the front and leave extra on both ends.

    All to say... it's all good! but don't email them... CALL!!

    As far as drilling... (stole the idea) - but I don't drill with 1/8 bits.. I use 9/64 which gives you 100% of no go backs to retouch a hole when the you get a bur and the rivet wont go in the hole.

    looking forward to seeing how it goes.
    Last edited by Erik W. Treves; 03-19-2019 at 07:11 AM.
    FFR 1879, Blown DSS 306,REDLINE management, VeryCoolParts Tuned 460RWHP

    FFR 818S, The Flash, Chassis #5, 2.0L, LSD, Electromotive TEC-S, VCP Tuned, 278RWHP 265 RWTQ

    FFR 6651, Green Lantern, 408W Crate, Hellion 66mm Turbo, JGS Waste gate / Blowoff valve, Tec-GT management, VCP Tuned, 575 RWHP, 690 RWTQ

    FFR 8335, Black Mamba, 289 FIA CSX 2001 tribute car, 347, 48 IDA webers, VCP Tuned, 311 RWHP 386 RWTQ, 3-link, Trigo's

    FFR 0004, Gen 3 , Hawk Coupe, Coyote twin turbo, 683 RWHP 559 RWTQ, IRS, VCP Tuned. "not too shabby"

    US ARMY Maintenance Test Pilot (CW4 Retired)

  21. #18

    Steve >> aka: GoDadGo
    GoDadGo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Location
    Slidell, Louisiana
    Posts
    6,556
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    1
    Alpha-Mac,

    Regarding your disappointment over the POL issue; please understand that Factory Five Racing is dealing with some growing pains associated with the recent boom in the economy which was caused by the tax code changes of 2018, which helped small businesses tremendously. They (F-5) are upgrading their inventory system among other production processes and while this is not fun for anyone, the team at Factory Five will get your parts to you as quickly as possible.

    As for me I had the exact opposite situation because I didn't want to deal with the POL issue so I ordered my kit, a MK-4 on 11-10-2014 with a requested delayed delivery date of February 1, 2015. Only a handful of insignificant parts were on back order; however, the economy at that time was much more sluggish, almost non-existent so I'm sure Factory Five's production figures were likely sluggish as well.

    Also, you've just been given some excellent advise from some of the best "Master Builders" of this forum.

    > Jeff Kleiner & Mike Everson Are Professional Master Builders.
    > Edwardb (Mr. Paul) & Erik Treves Are Hobbyist Master Builders.

    Any advice that you get from these gentlemen you can take to the bank. Since I'm a banker I can honestly make that statement and Jeff & Mr. Paul have assisted me on numerous occasions through this forum.

    I Wish You Good Luck From The Dark-Dart Side & Hope Your Disappointments Fade Sooner Than Later!

    Steve
    Last edited by GoDadGo; 03-19-2019 at 08:55 AM.

  22. Thanks SSNK4US thanked for this post
    Likes SSNK4US liked this post
  23. #19
    Senior Member John Dol's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Gorham, ME
    Posts
    1,522
    Post Thanks / Like
    I usually drill in a corner to get the piece anchored. Then drill and cleco every other hole. Then come back and drill the inbetweeners.
    I also don't have many cleco's, maybe 20 1/8".
    No right or wrong way to do it really.
    Before you take your panels off the car mark the back side around the frame members with a sharpie. This way you have the template to measure and make your rivet holes. Drill the aluminum, deburr, and then put it back in the car to drill into the frame through the aluminum holes you already drilled.

    HTH,

    John
    Finished the "My Coupe, my way" project.

    http://s956.photobucket.com/albums/ae46/jdcoupe1969/
    Coupe #386,17" Team III 245 FR 315 RR, 3-link, T5, 4 wheel disk, power brakes/steering. Sniper EFI
    First start Sept. 18 2013 First go kart Sept 19 2013

  24. #20
    Banned
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Posts
    5
    Post Thanks / Like
    please call me @ 727 441 5534 tnks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Brown County Customs

Visit our community sponsor