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Thread: MJS Mk4 Build Thread : Brake and Fuel line work

  1. #81
    Senior Member edwardb's Avatar
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    I personally try to install rivets so that whatever is exposed, wherever it is, the head is showing versus the crushed side. In this case, the inside of the footbox will be covered with insulation (you're doing that, right?) and carpet, and that will cover the "ugly" side of the rivet. As long as your rivets aren't overly long and crush down reasonably, I'd install them with the heads showing into the engine compartment. BTW, while nothing wrong with it, you're installing the rivets really close. Must like to squeeze those things, huh?
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  2. #82
    Senior Member MSumners's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by edwardb View Post
    I personally try to install rivets so that whatever is exposed, wherever it is, the head is showing versus the crushed side. In this case, the inside of the footbox will be covered with insulation (you're doing that, right?) and carpet, and that will cover the "ugly" side of the rivet. As long as your rivets aren't overly long and crush down reasonably, I'd install them with the heads showing into the engine compartment. BTW, while nothing wrong with it, you're installing the rivets really close. Must like to squeeze those things, huh?
    Thanks for the info and recommendations I appreciate it!
    Agreed, I only did a close rivet spacing in this area as I was having some trouble keeping it well approximated. Probably overkill and didn’t really do that anywhere else. Yes I’m planning on insulation and believe I’ll use the lizard skin products so I’ll see how well they are flattening out on other areas before finishing this section.
    Thanks again all.

  3. #83
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    Def put the heads in the engine compartment. Using the standard rivets, the carpet will easily cover them up. And if someone IS looking at the car for details, like down in this area, you certainly dont want anyone seeing the ugly part of a tight row of pop rivets.
    ---Boyd---
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  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by MSumners View Post
    Header Question: Anyone using a Dart 347 EFI use shorty or long headers? And for any reason in particular?
    I am using DART 347 EFI. WE used shorty headers in the build school and put them on backwards. Then you need either a J pipe or CATS which is what I am using.

    Looks something like this

    Last edited by Mark Eaton; 05-04-2019 at 07:46 AM.
    MK4 #9130 , complete kit, arrived 8/10/2017.
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    http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...n-Build-Thread

  5. #85
    Senior Member MSumners's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Eaton View Post
    I am using DART 347 EFI. WE used shorty headers in the build school and put them on backwards. Then you need either a J pipe or CATS which is what I am using.

    Looks something like this

    Thanks for the info. Talked with Mike Forte pretty sure I will have what I’ll need.
    Your build is looking great!

  6. #86
    Senior Member MSumners's Avatar
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    Got the center section in. I would only echo what others have said that it’s a tight fit. Used 4 hoist points to help position and went inch by inch with no issue. Using the large drift punches for alignment definitely helped.


  7. #87
    Senior Member MSumners's Avatar
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    Finishing up the last of the panel work prior to powder coat.
    I can cover this pedal box hole if I’m doing hydraulic clutch correct? And the other small panel shown?
    Otherwise I plan to cover the small hole on the drivers side of the transmission tunnel and pre-drill the trunk access panels and access panel to the driver footbox.
    Anything else to drill out or cover prior to PC?
    Last edited by MSumners; 05-05-2019 at 08:03 PM.

  8. #88
    Senior Member edwardb's Avatar
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    Yes the hole you're pointing to on the front footbox is for the clutch cable. You can cover it if you want. I use it for the hoses from the brake and clutch reservoir though. The hole in the small firewall extension can also be covered. Unlikely that you'll use it. But having said that, it's basically completely hidden. So if you cover it after the fact it doesn't hurt anything. The small hole in the DS of the transmission tunnel can also be filled. I've never used it. I believe it's left over from the donor harness days, but I'm not positive.
    Build 1: Mk3 Roadster #5125. Sold 11/08/2014.
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  9. #89
    Senior Member MSumners's Avatar
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    How hard to move should the IRS UCA be? Just after install and grease it still takes more than a nudge to get it to move at all. Tried opening up the mounts as much as possible with the threaded bar but the posterior mount will only adjust so far.
    Thanks for any advice.

  10. #90
    Senior Member MSumners's Avatar
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    The drivers side IRS UCA had a defect in the threads and the rod end assembly would only thread to this point where it was a hard stop. Tried a wire wheel but no-go. Called FF and they are sending one out. As usual great quick service.
    Last edited by MSumners; 05-06-2019 at 05:55 PM.

  11. #91
    Senior Member MSumners's Avatar
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    All panels fitted, marked, drilled, re-fitted often multiple times, de-burred and off to powder coat.
    How many drill bits did everyone else go through for this whole process?

  12. #92
    Senior Member MSumners's Avatar
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    Confirmed with F5 that there should be some drag on the UCA and require a hand to move it.

  13. #93
    Senior Member MSumners's Avatar
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    All metal and some random hardware back from powder coating. Turn-around time was only a day so came in ahead of schedule and under budget which hasn’t been the theme to this point.
    Went with plain Ford black for panels that will mostly be covered and Carbon metallic for the visible engine bay panels.

  14. #94

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    I've been debating wether to go satin black or satin clear, but until now landed on satin clear because I don't like the look of all the rivets standing out in aluminum on the black. I see now that black anodized rivets are readily available. Is that what you will be using? Would love to see how that would look like.

  15. #95
    Senior Member MSumners's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
    I've been debating wether to go satin black or satin clear, but until now landed on satin clear because I don't like the look of all the rivets standing out in aluminum on the black. I see now that black anodized rivets are readily available. Is that what you will be using? Would love to see how that would look like.
    I haven’t checked that out yet actually but may look into it. If I find some I’ll post after they’re placed.

  16. #96
    Senior Member MSumners's Avatar
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    Now that everything is powder coated. Putting the trunk and cockpit floor in won’t interfere with something down the road will it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MSumners View Post
    I haven’t checked that out yet actually but may look into it. If I find some I’ll post after they’re placed.
    Great, thanks!

  18. #98
    Senior Member MSumners's Avatar
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    Question for the more experienced crew.
    I’m working on the Wilwood IRS brakes. Everything else is installed and torqued( UCA,LCA, Toe, hubs and CV shafts in, etc). Is it normal to have some play in the rotor and hub prior to final torquing of the hub nut? I have the hub nut turned down as far as I can without having some weight on one of the wheels for resistance and 3 lug nuts placed temporarily but snug. Despite this the rotor can rock back and forth about 2-3mm and moves with the hub and CV. If this is normal, what use is it being very exact in the rotor to caliper spacing at this point. I feel like I’m missing something here.
    Thanks for any advice.

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    Others more experienced than me will chime in, but my experience was that yes, you will feel some play in the rotor until the spindle nut is tightened down. However, since the rotor, caliper bracket and caliper are bolted to the hub, the relationship between rotor and caliper is fixed so your caliper to rotor spacing is not affected by this play. By the way, if you have the emergency brake calipers mounted, you can put a clamp on the two arms that the e-brake cable pulls on to tighten down the e-brake caliper and torque the spindle nuts even before mounting your wheels.
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  20. #100
    Not a waxer Jeff Kleiner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MSumners View Post
    Putting the trunk and cockpit floor in won’t interfere with something down the road will it?
    It won't actually interfere but will make running brake and fuel lines as well as wiring significantly more difficult because of the limited access. I always fit and drill the panels beforehand but don't permanently install them until the other items are done.

    Jeff

  21. #101
    Senior Member MSumners's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnK View Post
    Others more experienced than me will chime in, but my experience was that yes, you will feel some play in the rotor until the spindle nut is tightened down. However, since the rotor, caliper bracket and caliper are bolted to the hub, the relationship between rotor and caliper is fixed so your caliper to rotor spacing is not affected by this play. By the way, if you have the emergency brake calipers mounted, you can put a clamp on the two arms that the e-brake cable pulls on to tighten down the e-brake caliper and torque the spindle nuts even before mounting your wheels.
    Thanks I’ll try the Ebrake to tighten it down and recheck the movement.
    Thanks!

  22. #102
    Senior Member MSumners's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Kleiner View Post
    It won't actually interfere but will make running brake and fuel lines as well as wiring significantly more difficult because of the limited access. I always fit and drill the panels beforehand but don't permanently install them until the other items are done.

    Jeff

    Thanks!
    I’ll wait to put these in, should be to brake / fuel lines fairly soon

  23. #103
    Senior Member MSumners's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MSumners View Post
    Thanks I’ll try the Ebrake to tighten it down and recheck the movement.
    Thanks!
    Tried clamping the E-brake and torquing the hub nut down. That took out the last couple millimeters of play on the rotor.
    Thanks!
    Last edited by MSumners; 05-13-2019 at 06:45 PM.

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  25. #104
    Senior Member MSumners's Avatar
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    Settled on the black head rivets from McMaster for the visible areas to match the powder coat. Thought I may like the contrast to the bare aluminum rivets but after seeing these placed I am sold.

  26. #105
    Senior Member MSumners's Avatar
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    Question for the experienced here.
    When placing a Rivnut into the F-panel, despite practicing beforehand, I’ve set it and it was slightly cockeyed. I lightly thread a button head SS 10-32 into it to see if it would set down ok but got stuck and my attempt to bring it back out sheared the head off the screw as below. This reminds me of reviews at work where it’s sjasts a series of mistakes that build to a situation like this, ha.
    Before I get further into this I was considering options and wanted to see if someone has gone through this before.
    1: is it even possible to drill this out?
    2: if not I was considering taking the whole thing out either smallest hole saw possible and using a separate fastener here.
    3: if that failed or messed up the F panels I could always take them off and just start over here but that seemed extreme.
    Thanks again in advance!

  27. #106
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    It looks like there is enough of the screw sticking out to clamp a set of vice grips onto and screw it out. If you can do that then I would drill it out and replace. They are easy to drill out using a bit that just fits inside the rivnut.
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  28. #107
    Not a waxer Jeff Kleiner's Avatar
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    I'd use a Dremel with a cut off wheel on the backside and cut the expanded part of the rivnut off flush. Once you get it out you need to promise that you will never again install a stainless steel fastener dry...always use anti-seize (or just don't use stainless steel).

    Jeff

  29. #108
    Senior Member MSumners's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Kleiner View Post
    I'd use a Dremel with a cut off wheel on the backside and cut the expanded part of the rivnut off flush. Once you get it out you need to promise that you will never again install a stainless steel fastener dry...always use anti-seize (or just don't use stainless steel).

    Jeff
    I’ll try the dremel cut-off when I get a chance.
    Deal on the SS anti-seize!

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  31. #109
    Senior Member Fixit's Avatar
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    antiseize.png
    x2 on Anti-Seize, but the stuff is diabolical - it gets everywhere.
    On machine screws, just a TINY dab on the 1st few threads will do. It'll spread out as it's threaded in and keep the threads from galling.
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  32. #110
    Senior Member MSumners's Avatar
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    Thanks for the recommendations, the twirling rivet nut came out without a hassle after taking the dremel cutoff to the backside and didn’t even nick the F panel at all.

    Starting on the brake lines now and I’ve been reading about routing. Would it make more sense to have a 180 degree adapter in this spot below. It just seems like it would avoid the odd extra bend I would have to make because the line to go across the X brace would go straight off the front. But of course, maybe there’s something I’m missing.
    Thanks again.

  33. #111
    Senior Member MSumners's Avatar
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    Started working on the E-brake as well and decided to do the pulley modification that Edwardb described to avoid running the cables under the frame. I placed the two pulleys as shown and secured with a shoulder bolt and they are very solid. I also obtained the Lokar clevis with the set screws for the attachment point. I’m not sure about other experiences but I wasn’t able to make this work without interference from the E brake handle frame mount, even with a carriage or elevator bolt placed from the underside. I decided to try something slightly different. I cutoff the clevis so I could just use the threads and the set screws. I then attached a 5/16- 24 female rod end for the assembly as shown. To offset the cable pull and avoid the interference I drilled out the 2 holes on the Ebrake to 5/16 and placed a 2” 5/16 shoulder screw as well with 5/16 spacers taking up the space where the prior rod end was held. I used spacers for the offset and so far it looks like this.







    I’ll post a picture of the offset and final position tomorrow when it’s actually in and working to see if it really avoids the interference. Also, I ‘believe’ there will be enough room to avoid interference from the transmission but if not then back to the drawing board or the old design.
    Any thoughts are welcome.
    Last edited by MSumners; 05-26-2019 at 10:20 PM.

  34. #112
    Senior Member edwardb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MSumners View Post
    Starting on the brake lines now and I’ve been reading about routing. Would it make more sense to have a 180 degree adapter in this spot below. It just seems like it would avoid the odd extra bend I would have to make because the line to go across the X brace would go straight off the front. But of course, maybe there’s something I’m missing.
    A 180 degree adapter would be a bit easier I guess. But I've never seen one in that configuration for 3/8-24 inverted flare adapters. It's really no big deal to bend lines for that fitting. You have to do a 90 degree turn on the other side to go straight into the flex line adapter. So in effect, both sides are similar.

    Quote Originally Posted by MSumners View Post
    Started working on the E-brake as well and decided to do the pulley modification that Edwardb described to avoid running the cables under the frame. I placed the two pulleys as shown and secured with a shoulder bolt and they are very solid. I also obtained the Lokar clevis with the set screws for the attachment point. I’m not sure about other experiences but I wasn’t able to make this work without interference from the E brake handle frame mount, even with a carriage or elevator bolt placed from the underside. I decided to try something slightly different. I cutoff the clevis so I could just use the threads and the set screws. I then attached a 5/16- 24 female rod end for the assembly as shown. To offset the cable pull and avoid the interference I drilled out the 2 holes on the Ebrake to 5/16 and placed a 2” 5/16 shoulder screw as well with 5/16 spacers taking up the space where the prior rod end was held. I used spacers for the offset and so far it looks like this.
    Not quite sure what you're doing there until you show the final assembly. You're right though. With only the Lokar clevis as I and others have installed it, does rub on the carriage bolt under the mount. In actual use has been a non-issue. I'm on the third season and 4,200+ miles with the mod. Haven't touched it and still works great. Use the e-brake all the time. Will be interested to see what you come up with.

    One comment on your pulley installation. That bolt isn't quite long enough. It's not all the way through the lock nut and doesn't even appear to be engaging the nylon insert. Good practice for all nuts, locking or not, is there should be threads coming through. Normal recommendation is two threads exposed.
    Last edited by edwardb; 05-26-2019 at 10:26 PM.
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  35. #113
    Senior Member MSumners's Avatar
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    Thanks for the info on the adapter and agreed I searched quite a bit and couldn’t find one that would work.
    The nylock is only hand tight in the picture, it was before tightening down but is fully engaged now.
    I’ll post tomorrow with the final install and see if anyone thinks there will be issues.
    Thanks again!
    Last edited by MSumners; 05-27-2019 at 07:12 PM.

  36. #114
    Senior Member MSumners's Avatar
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    Back to the E-brake work.
    My first iteration as shown below did not work out as planned. My goal was to offset the clevis away from the frame mount to avoid interference. I found I had to set it so far away to avoid the interference that the length of the arm created put too much torsion on the rest of the assembly. See below.


    So I scrapped that idea. After staring at the whole thing for a few minutes I decided just to elongate the lower arm of the assembly as below and keep everything lined up.
    I cut a length of steel from an angle I had as below and marked and drilled to attach with the lower arm. After cleaning it up, taking the edges off with an angle grinder and Emory cloth and a couple coats of paint it was ready. I had to buy slightly longer 5/16 and 3/8 shoulder screws for the attachment to the Ebrake arms. I then used the modified Lokar clevis with the 5/16 rod end and assembled it together. Success! Of course, as others have said, maybe this wasn’t even an issue to begin with, but I’m happy with it nonetheless. Pulls straight and solid and no interference and it’s not even close to being below the frame.











    I’m sure builders have done this before I just don’t recall seeing it. Given the longer attachment arm the only major difference I see would be having a shorter pull on the handle to full brake engagement. I get about 3 ‘clicks’ to full hard stop engagement. I may look at how much I could shorten the arm and still retain frame clearance when I pull it out again and also rotate the carriage bolt to point the other direction. I believe this would give a bit more throw on the handle before full engagement.
    Any thoughts are welcome or downsides I haven’t thought of.
    Last edited by MSumners; 05-31-2019 at 12:57 PM. Reason: Adding pictures

  37. #115
    Senior Member MSumners's Avatar
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    Ended up shortening the arm slightly and exchanging the carriage bolt for a hex button head. Still have clearance and it gets a bit more throw on the E-brake handle. I’ll post final pics when it’s back in place.

  38. #116
    Senior Member MSumners's Avatar
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    I made a bracket for the reservoirs shown. I remember reading about a maximum distance the front edge of the bracket can be from the front of the pedal box, but can’t find it now. I think it was 12” ? And I don’t really recall why. Interference from something else?
    Last edited by MSumners; 06-01-2019 at 03:16 PM.

  39. #117
    Senior Member edwardb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MSumners View Post
    I made a bracket for the reservoirs shown. I remember reading about a maximum distance the front edge of the bracket can be from the front of the pedal box, but can’t find it now. I think it was 12” ? And I don’t really recall why. Interference from something else?
    12-inches is cutting it a little close. I normally recommend no more than 11-inches from the front of the footbox. The reason is to stay clear of the hood gas struts that drop down into that area when the hood closes.
    Build 1: Mk3 Roadster #5125. Sold 11/08/2014.
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  40. #118
    Senior Member MSumners's Avatar
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    Thanks for the info. It’s about 11” as it stands in the picture so I’ll probably plant it in that spot.

  41. #119
    Senior Member MSumners's Avatar
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    Decided to take a few days and go back over everything I’ve done to this point, checking torque settings on bolts and just making sure I didn’t miss anything. Fairly basic but good peace of mind.
    Decided I would work through the fuel and brake lines. I’m essentially following work and recommendations from others that have detailed their routing and suggestions. Something I decided to do from the beginning was stainless lines including the 3/8 fuel supply and return. Like others I sourced them from Inline Tube on the other side of the state from me in Michigan. As EdwardB stated this allows for uncoiled sections which are nice to work with and no extra unions.
    Because I’m doing stainless I decided to pick up the heavy duty flaring tool many have used ( it is sold under multiple vendors including Eastwood and TGR) and also size specific tubing benders to make this easier.
    I initially had some trouble getting consistent flares made, and attribute this to not following recommendations others have made. I probably made about 40 practice flares in every shape imaginable before I figured out my simple mistake. I wasn’t tightening the die down hard enough and the tubing was moving, nearly imperceptible, but moving nonetheless. This caused the slight ridge you notice on the glare in the left side of the picture, compared to what I believe is a good flare on the right.



    Using air tool oil on the end seemed to help too. Once I started doing this, I practiced on some 3/8 SS and every one was perfect.

    I started marking the edge of the tubing in the die, otherwise I really couldn’t tell if it had moved at all.


    So far I’ve been able to get the 3/8 fuel lines bent and in place, actually very happy with how it turned out and every surface is flush with the frame to mount it secure. I’m working on the brake lines now but waiting on some fittings to finalize sections.

    Last edited by MSumners; 06-19-2019 at 07:54 PM.

  42. #120
    Senior Member MSumners's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Location
    Hudsonville, MI
    Posts
    140
    Post Thanks / Like
    Can’t wait to see this beast. Crated and ready to ship.

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