KOEO Codes 19, 69(cm), 6 and No Start

[ptstew]

Engine hard started after new intake manifold installed. Once started, ran smoothly at rpms up to 3,000, idled at 700, 18hg of vacuum at idle. Turned off with key and would not restart. Have spark from distributor and fuel at shrader valve. Installed spare know good eec and still no start. Got codes in title. Any suggestions on where to go from here appreciated.

[Boydster]

19 is a No Vehicle power.
69 is a transmission code... should not prevent starting.
I think a code 6 is for the #6 cylinder, but thats tested during the balance test when the engine is running.

I would work on that 19. Looked it up on one of my old 5.0 books, yep. The EEC power relay puts vehicle power to the fuel pump relay and the emissions sensors and your IABS.... remember, the EEC IV monitors and controls grounds on these items. Check for voltage at one of the injectors and maybe at the IABS... if you have 12v, the relay should be OK and you need to look at another computer or wiring between the relay and computer.

Spark at distributor comes right from ignition switch. Fuel in rail could be residual, even under pressure it would just sit if the injectors are not cycling.

The other codes wont stop you from running.

[ptstew]

I have 12 volts at fuel pump relay (it primes and also runs twice when pulling codes) and injectors with ignition on. No IABS, cats, nor smog pump on car to check. Known good spare computer didn’t work. Relay gets power from computer, right, so not sure what to look for in wiring between relay and computer. Found one website which showed code 19 as “electronic ignition cylinder id sensor/circuit problem – ignition systems” which makes me think distributor electronics failed. Any thoughts on that?

[Boydster]

I see 3 possibilities for code 19. One is during the KOEO test, that would be Vehicle voltage. Another is KOER, that would be too low idle. The last one is the ignition one you mentioned, and I show it as a Continuous Memory item.

That EEC Relay also supplies voltage to pins 37 & 57 on the EEC. Without that voltage (the EEC does get voltage from other places), it will toss the 19 KOEO.

Perhaps even if you're getting a test spark, may be time to start testing ignition components. If the TFI has / is failing, it can do some weird things. I did a search for "electronic ignition cylinder id sensor/circuit problem – ignition systems” and dont see a thing on how to proceed.

[ptstew]

Thanks, Boyd. I’ll do some further testing of the EEC relay to computer circuit. Congrats on your go cart this week!

[Boydster]

Thanks, but I go-carted about a year ago. Waiting on the body shop to finish up down in NC. Make sure to post back on what ya find.

[ptstew]

Oops, wrong year! May be a few days b4 I can get back to car but will let you know.

[mburger]

Maybe the troubleshooting steps in this thread would help? https://www.stangnet.com/mustang-for...stangs.787471/

[ptstew]

Thanks, Mark. I have this jrichker checklist and have followed it to the point where it says computer or timing. I am positive that distributor is set properly - engine was running well just before no start condition. I have known good spare computer which doesn’t help. Any other ideas?

[Big Blocker]

Quote: "Relay gets power from computer, right, so not sure what to look for in wiring between relay and computer." . . . No, relay supplies power to the EEC. When you turn on the ignition key, the power relay supplies to the EEC and the initial power to the fuel pump so it can cycle on for 1 to 2 seconds to prime / charge the fuel rails.

Quote: "showed code 19 as “electronic ignition cylinder id sensor/circuit problem – ignition systems” . . . That would be the PIP sensor inside the distributor and FWIW requires the gear be removed to replace the PIP.
The PIP reads the multi-toothed reluctor wheel under the distributor rotor and has one tooth that is narrower to let the EEC know where #1 cylinder is. It's important that this narrower tooth is aligned with the rotor for #1 cylinder to time spark and injector firing

HTH

Doc

[Boydster]

...and has one tooth that is narrower to let the EEC know where #1 cylinder is. It's important that this narrower tooth is aligned with the rotor for #1 cylinder to time spark and injector firing...
Doc

I've been playing with 5.0 EEC's since 1987 and I didnt know that. Cool.

[Railroad]

Just a shot in the dark, did all the gound wires get re attached during the manifold swap?

[Big Blocker]

Boydster, Me too . . . but always good to have backup people when I'm trying to figure this stuff out.

Back to the issue; in the process of swapping manifolds, did the OP pull the "salt-n-pepper" connectors at the back of the block?? might want to verify continuity there as all your injector pulses travel thru this connector.

Doc

[mburger]

A noid light set is cheap (NAPA, Autozone) and can verify injector pulse while cranking.

[ptstew]

Thanks, guys. All great input. I have confirmed 12 volts to computer pins 37 and 57. I did not disconnect the salt ‘n pepper connector during the swap. I simply laid the injector and TFI wires along the top edge of the valve covers. I did not encounter any grounds attached to the intakes that needed removing. I did see a ground at the left rear of the engine that was close to where I was cleaning the left head intake ports. I was careful to protect it with a rubber sleeve and did not remove it and I can still feel it attached.
Railroad, am I missing something on these grounds? I just don’t remember any others.
I also found in my Chilton’s manual that disconnecting the negative battery cable for more than 5 minutes clears the the Keep Alive Memory and can cause a code 19 to be stored for loss of EEC power. I did disconnect the battery when I did the swap so that may be why I got that code. I am punting to a new distributor with new PIP and TFI electronics as the next step (not very expensive and old one 28 years old). If that doesn’t work I plan to start tracing all the wires looking for a fault. I’ll also get a noid light, Mark, as you suggest. Injector #5 is the easiest to get to. If it pulses ok can I conclude anything about the others?

I really appreciate all the backup here from everyone. It’s very helpful!!

[mburger]

When I had starting issues on my 1990 5.0, I bought an inline spark tester and the noid light kit. You use the noid light that fits the connector of the injector. The inline spark tester flashed like it should while cranking. Flash....Flash... Falsh... But the noid light seemed to flash like cazy. So don't be mislead by that. If it's flashing, you are getting timed voltage to the injectors. Doesn't matter which injector you choose. The easiest one is fine. If that one is getting a fire voltage it's safe to assume they all are. I find it hard to believe the PIP or TFI suddenly died.
Remove the MAF tube and shoot starter fluid into the engine and crank it. If it fires, it's a feul delivery issue. If it doesn't, it's a spark issue.

[ptstew]

I tried 3-4 seconds of ether spray behind open throttle plate and got no response. Maybe that wasn’t enough. I get spark pulse from distributor to one of the cylinders with a spark tester when cranking. I’ll check injector pulse and try new dizzy later this week and let you know. Thanks.

[ptstew]

Well, I’m stuck. Today, I:

Rechecked for spark between distributor and spark plug - ok
Checked for injector pulse with noid light -ok(flashed like crazy as you said, Mark
Rechecked grounds at computer pins 16,20,40,46,60 -ok
Installed new distributor - no start
Checked coil resistances -ok
Sprayed ether into intake - no engine response
Connected known good spare computer - no start

I must be missing something that initially caused a hard start, but smooth running after three hard starts until turned off with key, and then a no start, not even a single cylinder firing during several second cranks with spark and strong fuel odor at pipes. Is there a sensor on the car that would cause a no start?
I appreciate any suggestions, guys! Help!

[mburger]

Just because, try spraying starting fluid into the intake rather than ether.
Your timing didn’t get advanced too far somehow?

[Big Blocker]

Have we verified top dead center and the dizzy rotor pointing to #1 at that point?? Any chance the engine is out of time by 180° ? That would give you spark at crank but not at the right time for the firing order. Example: you crank the engine over and get plenty of spark - but is that spark firing the correct cylinder?

Just trying to help out . . .

Doc

[ptstew]

Thanks, guys. Mark, when I say ether I mean a can of starting fluid.
Doc, the way I checked the timing is to pull spark plug #1, remove distributor cap to see rotor, put finger on plug hole, crank till I feel compression, note rotor position, crank rotor another 345° or so and then wrench engine to tdc under pointer. When I do that, the rotor tip is under the #1 spark plug wire terminal of the distributor cap. I have a score mark on the distributor base that I line up with a score mark on the engine block which gives me 14° advanced. I’ll confirm that when I get the engine started again.
I have rotated the distributor back and forth to its movement limits while cranking the engine and also intentionally installed the distributor 180° off with no firing response.
I have purchased entry level fuel pressure and compression testers and will measure those this weekend.
If they are ok I guess I am down to the computer. Could I have somehow mishandled and killed them both or would some wiring issue kill them?

[mburger]

I always disconnect the battery when removing/connecting the A9L. If it gets to the point you want to try another computer, I have a spare working A9L you can test with.

[ptstew]

Thanks, Mark - a very generous offer. Rather than potentially risking your computer in my car would you consider trying my computer in your car? I’m not quite there yet but let me know what you think. Thanks so much.

[mburger]

Sure I can do that. With your symptoms it shouldn’t matter, but what happens if you remove the SPOUT connector and crank it? I may be wrong but normally you would be at 10BTDC without the SPOUT in place. You are basically removing the computer from your timing with it removed and you don’t need the computer for spark.
Also, there are many more on this forum that have forgotten more than I’ll ever know so I certainly don’t want to be giving you bad advice and hope one of them jump in to correct me if needed.

[Railroad]

May need to check the roll steel pin in the distributor gear. They can shear and still hold the gear intermittentally. I would expect some back firing if even then. Which number 1 cyl are you using. I did not understand you actions, ie rotating rotor 345*, after finding TDC.
Are you checking your harmonic balancer, when you have TDC, rotor and cap wiring all sync'ed? I have not read all the post, but does you engine have the ign module attached to the outside of the dist? They can be off and on in function.

[ptstew]

Thanks, Mark and Railroad. My ignition module is attached to the outside of the distributor. I have tried a new distributor with new TFI and PIP which didn’t help. I am using the front right(passenger side) cylinder as #1. The reason I crank another 345° of the rotor after feeling compression is that the engine always continues past tdc when I release the start button. I don’t want to wrench the engine backwards so I let it crank further (345°) to get it closer to the tdc mark before starting to wrench it. Harmonic balancer looks good and when at tdc I install distributor so that rotor is pointing straight rearward and directly under the #1 spark plug wire terminal. I do pull the spout when finalizing base timing and engine does not start with spout removed.

[frd2]

If you are feeling for compression on #1 cylinder and call that TDC (which it would be on compression stroke) then 360 Deg (1 full revolution) is not TDC on compression, it is TDC on exhaust. You would be 180 Deg off on distributer at that point calling it TDC?

I think I just exhausted (pun intended) my knowledge of engines here - someone correct me!

[ptstew]

Thanks. I crank an extra partial turn of the distributor rotor; the engine would turn twice that amount.

[mburger]

You can remove the spark plug, use your finger to find the compression stroke as you've done, then use a wooden dowl in the hole to find TDC by rocking the crank and you'll be within +/- 2 or 3 degress of TDC. Then verify rotor location.

[ptstew]

Good idea, Mark. That would confirm balancer timing marks are ok. Thanks.

[Big Blocker]

you know . . . at first I was thrown off by the 345° added rotation, thinking like a few others that this would make the dizzy 180° out of wack (<-- highly technical term used often by car guys ). But, after re-reading the post, I realized that ptstew was rotating the rotor in the dizzy 345° further . . . 345° + 15° (advance) = 360° - Got it, I now understand what you are doing to keep from rotating the crank past the TDC mark too easily.
Sometimes it just takes re-reading the post to fully understand.

Are you cranking by the ignition switch or a starter button attached to BAT and your solenoid, by-passing the ignition (START) system. Do you get any cylinders firing or nothing at all? EFI engines with TFI ignition modules have two START circuits, same as any old car . . . CRANK and RUN. They both are somewhat independent of each other. Also, there are two different TFI modules available, one is GREY and the other is BLACK. When you switched distributors, were they identicle, both with the same TFI module?

Doc

[ptstew]

Thanks, Doc. I have tried starting both with the key and from the solenoid and confirmed correct voltages at the start and run pins of the TFI. The TFI on both distributors was grey and attached directly to the distributor. I am getting no cylinders firing. When I finished the manifold swap the car hard started. It acted like a flooded carbureted engine where I had to work the throttle while cranking, a couple of cylinders fired while the starter kept it going, it caught and ran with partial throttle and then after 30-40 seconds ran smoothly on its own. 700 idle, 18”hg steady vacuum, good throttle response. I’d turn it off with the key and it would hard start again right away. After turning off with the key the third time it has just cranked with no firing since. I am going to work on it some more tomorrow and will post results.

[ptstew]

Well, I have good news and bad news. The good news is that I was able to confirm that timing is ok. The bad news is that I ran a cold engine compression test and the results are terrible. Dry readings went from 78 max to 46 minimum and wets jumped 20-30% on 4 cylinders. I initially I didn’t trust my gauge so I went out and rented another one and got similar results. So, things just went beyond my ability to fix myself. I am going to start another thread to see if I can get a recommendation for an engine rebuilder in the Houston area.
Thanks for everyone’s comments.

[ptstew]

Just wanted to let everyone who helped me with this no start issue know that I am finally back on the road. It turned out that the 1993 Cobra “bolt on ready” intake manifold that I bought to dress up my 1991 engine was not “ bolt on ready” after all. It had been bead blasted and the EGR passageway was not properly cleaned of glass bead residue. Shame on me for not checking! I considered but did not delete the EGR during the install so when I started the engine all that residue got sucked in to the engine and basically destroyed it.
Rather than rebuild it I purchased a BluePrint long block 302 from Summit Racing and had it installed by Radical Roadsters. James Yale, the owner, has both built and serviced numerous FFR cars. He did an outstanding job and I am elated to be back on the road.
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[Boydster]

...when I started the engine all that residue got sucked in to the engine and basically destroyed it.

Wow, I'm dumbfounded how someone could blast a manifold and not clean it out... not you, the seller. Glad you're back on the road, tho...

[mburger]

Wow. Glad you’re back on the road. Sounds like an expensive fix but that motor should last a lifetime.

[ChasNMe]

seems like whoever you got the intake from should be at least partly liable . . .

[ptstew]

Well, that’s a whole ‘nother story!

[Big Blocker]

Glad to hear that you are back on the road but THAT SUCKS that someone that you paid good money to for a [professional] service caused you some real grief.

Doc