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Thread: King and Jazzman have inspired me so let the journey begin.

  1. #1
    Member Mick40's Avatar
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    King and Jazzman have inspired me so let the journey begin.

    A few months ago I reached out to King who designed an excellent method to flip the nose on the Mark 4. Mine is a Mark 3.1 but, the frame in the front where the hinges mount are similar. I promiced King I would share my build on the forum, maybe other will be inspired. The drawings sent to me by King are very detailed plus both King and Jazzman did a thorough job documenting their builds here on the forum.

    So, it begins. There are two cam's that keep the hinges from racking and help tighten up the hinge system. These can be cut on a bandsaw however, I decided to mill them on a CNC my buddy and I built back in 2007. It's called a Joe4X4, after the guy who designed it. What impressed me with King's drawings is they are very detailed, more than the CNC build. At that point I knew this project was doable for me. Also, King has been extremly generious with his time answering numerious questions. I recognize this does not come as a surpirse to those of you who have seen his posts.

    Here is a short video of one of the cams being cut. Keep in mind, this machine was not designed to cut anything other than wood. Therefore, the speed is about 18imp with a .01 cut depth. Took about 24 minutes to cut which is not bad.

    I will do my best to provide updates. Until then, enjoy the video!

    Mick

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QYOZk2OjWQE

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  3. #2
    Senior Member CraigS's Avatar
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    I will be following this thread. I want to thank you for the mention of the mill. I saved the website for a future project.
    FFR MkII, 408W, Tremec TKO 500, 2015 IRS, DA QA1s, Forte front bar, APE hardtop.

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  5. #3
    Member Mick40's Avatar
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    When we built ours he had not perfected rack and pinion. Had plans to convert but, it runs fine with lead screws it's not a production machine. The vectric software allows me to mill a full sheet of plywood which doesnt happen often. I have only cut two signs that were larger than 4 feet. Happy to help when the time comes. At the time there were few hobby CNC's that as large as the Joe4x4. Now, the prices have dropped and there are more options. I suspect the boom in 3D printing has helped.

  6. #4
    Member Mick40's Avatar
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    This morning I recut the part with the nub given it was too loose for my liking. I didn't take a photo of the new part but, this gives you an idea of what I'm talking about. My test was cut in plywood which fit perfect. I ran the machine too fast so when it made the sharp turn I suspect the bit dug in. Once slowed down it cut perfect. I dimpled where the holes will be drilled which I will do on the Drill Press.
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    Member Mick40's Avatar
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    I completed the metal brackets that attach the hinge to the hood. It went rather quickly. Next step fabricating the hinges.
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  8. #6
    Member Mick40's Avatar
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    Harbor Freight saw

    Before I left the shop I decided to retrofit my portable bandsaw. I have had this saw for about two years and used it on many projects. However, I never needed a stable platform to cut on until now. Took an hour to mount this on the wall and make a cutting surface. Nothing fancy, can be removed in a second. I know HF has some terrible tools but, there are some that work great and this is one of them. For $99.00 bucks its been a good deal for me. Hopefully it will be up to the task making all the cuts. By the way, If you purchase one, ditched the HF blade and replaced it with a Milwaukee. Sorry for the terrible photo.

    Mick
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  9. #7
    2bking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mick40 View Post
    I completed the metal brackets that attach the hinge to the hood. It went rather quickly. Next step fabricating the hinges.
    You may need more of these brackets than you realize. Watch the quantities in the drawings; these are used left and right (same patterns but opposite bends).
    King
    Roadster #8127, ordered 7/12/13, received 9/11/13
    http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...4-Coyote-Build

  10. #8
    Member Mick40's Avatar
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    Hi King.

    I made a total of 16 brackets and kept an eye on making sure the opposing bracket bends were the opposite where needed. 16 brackets in total. When I say it when rather quickly, this took me about 6 or 7 hours. To some this may seem tedious work but for me, it's very satisfying.

    For anyone thinking of taking on this challenge, the plans and drawings are outstanding. That said, I recognize this is not to eveyone's liking but, as it's been said on the forum many time's " it's your car do what you like". I admit I don't like eveyone's build choice. What I do like and admire is the work they put into it to make it their own. There are too many kid's today ( sound like my Dad), that don't work with their hands unless it's a video game. So, I appreciate all the builds knowing what it takes to get to the finish line.

    Sorry for the rant. King, thanks for looking over my shoulder, I appreciate it very much.

    Now back to the garage.

  11. #9
    Senior Member dallas_'s Avatar
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    Nice improvements over our early 'less sophisticated' tilt front efforts.
    Great to see the knowledge base expand on modifications.
    John
    FFR 7123 tilt front, Levy 5link/wilwoods/LCA's, webers.
    SL-C, LS3 525, Mendeola SDR5,

  12. #10
    Member Mick40's Avatar
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    Hi John,

    I watched your flip, still have a folder on my computer full of photos documenting your build. It was then I knew I wanted to do this. Yeah that goes back a ways. The good news is time has allowed me to make choices and changes that otherwise would not have happened. The flip side ( no pun intended), is I could have been driving it all these years. If anything, it has made me apprecaite the journey.

  13. #11
    Member dbo_texas's Avatar
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    I'm going to be following this closely. I got the drawings & assembly instructions from 2BKing & Jazzman a few months ago. Both were awesome about answering some of my initial questions about the process. I don't have my kit yet but I plan on doing this mod as well. The results are awesome. The only thing that scares me a little bit is the amount of extra body work required to secure the hood to the tilt front, and then to shape the jog around the joint between the hood and the body. But I plan to make the mods regardless....it is just too good to pass up.

  14. #12
    Member robertjamesellis's Avatar
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    Hey Mick,

    Great to see you taking this on. I also am going forward with the tilt-front option and am about a month away from starting. Just finishing up a couple other things before I tackle that part. King and Jazzman have supplied me with the instructions and drawings and am excited to see someone else going down this path! There is no way I would take this on without them forging the initial path. It should be a fun adventure!

    Rob
    MKIV Base Kit, delivered 11/6/17. Build Thread Link: http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...d-Base-Kit-427
    Carburated 427z, TKO-600 (.82), Torsen Diff (3.73), IRS, PS, Heat, 17Ē Halibrands
    First Start: 10/18/18

  15. #13
    Member Mick40's Avatar
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    Well it's nice to see there are others taking this on, I will do my best to post progress. Been working on the hinges and will post photos tonight. I'm not too concerned about cutting the body and getting it aligned. Hope I didn't jinx myself! Although I have worked with fiberglass, nothing to this degree. I'm also not doing the paint or body work. I don't have the time and know my limitations. I'm still unsure how Iím locking the hood, both King and Jazzman took different approaches and each worked well. Mark, the owner of Breeze Automotive Parts (great guy, excellent parts), did this to his roadster which may be the direction I take. Will see.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYdecHf4Su0

    Mick

  16. #14
    Member Mick40's Avatar
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    Factory Five hinges

    Because my kit is a Mk 3.1, I didnít have the hinges that come with the new kits. I thought they were a little expensive until they arrived and inspected them. As most of you already know, they are laser cut, and the hardware is impressive. The hinges need to be altered nothing major. Slot some holes, narrow the bracket and, flip the arms which I have not done yet.


    I then started to lay out holes and cuts for the braces that attach to the hood. Once I have completed all the cuts, and drilling I will begin welding.

    Mick
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  17. #15
    Member Mick40's Avatar
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    Welded up the hinge supports working slowly not to warp the metal. The key was to tack and move to another area. After I had a couple of piece together, I flipped it over and tacked the other side. Took some time but, they not warped and mirror images of each other. I'm by no means a good welder, the grinding disc is my friend. Still some clean up to do but, nothing major. You may be inclined to run a bead but, don't do it.
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  18. #16
    Member Mick40's Avatar
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    I finished the rest of the fabrication today. These parts are the heart of making the nose tip. Just temporary put together, a lot of clean up to do prior to fitting it to the frame. You may notice Factory Five hood hinges. King designed it so you can utilize your current hinges. They also ensure the hood tips and doesnít rest on its nose even with a bumper. Next step is installation.

    Mick
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  19. #17
    Member Mick40's Avatar
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    Electric trunk hinge from a Mustang

    Took a break and decided to install the electric Mustang trunk latch I've had for a while. A couple of folks have done this mod with success. I believe Dale mounted the latch to the frame as opposed to the trunk lid. I followed Dale's install which appears to be more secure. Also having the pin on the trunk lid will be easier to align and adjust. Also, lighter and no need to snake electrical through the lid.

    The mounting points on the latch are at an angle so the mounts needed to be cut at 75 degrees. I used a 1 inch angle bracket to secure to the bracing above the fuel tank. I then welded two one inch pieces of square stock to the bracket. I welded a cap on the end with a nut welded to the inside of the tube so I could secure the latch.

    I have not cut off the tab at the bottom on the Mustang itís the 3rd mounting point. Iím not sure if I will add a mounting, may just cut it off. The latch is secure but, will move a bit if I lean on it. Certainly more than the trunk will every do. Will remove and Powdercoat prior to final install.

    Mick
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  20. #18
    Member Mick40's Avatar
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    Mounted the hinges

    Today I mocked up the hinges to see if there were any obstacles. You may recall King's design is for a Mark IV but, the frame in the front is identical to the MK 3.1, as best as I can tell so, no issues. The next step is to mount the body and temporarily bond the hood. I believe at that point I will secure the hinges to the body and then cut. Not sure just yet.


    Now that the system is mounted I'm amazed at the simplicity and how well it all works, a credit to 2BKing. The parts are easy to fabricate with simple tools, it's just takes time. I'm not a very good fabricator so, if I can do it anyone can.

    Hopefully this will benefit someone else looking to take this on. I'm really looking forward to the body fitting which is likely the most challenging but, rewarding.


    Mick
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  21. #19
    Member Mick40's Avatar
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    I had a break from work and was able to get back at this. There has been a lot of progress but, I want to outline some of the work that needs to happen regardless of what path you take. I mounted the body, doors, elephant ears, and side pipes. Because mine is a Mk3, the headers provided by Factory Five at the time were made by BBK. Factory Five no longer uses this vendor. Like several of you have experienced the passenger side pipe fit perfect. However, the driver side was 3/4 of an inch too high. My fix required me to elongate the slot (along with the pin slot), on the frame about 3/8th which leveled the pipes. I had thought that the motor was level when I installed it but, apparently it was off by a few degrees. Many others have mentioned that very little movement at the motor provides a lot of movement at the pipe. They are correct. The reason to go to all this trouble you want to discover these problems before you cut the body. It may impact where you plan on cutting while also ensuring both sides are the same. Making sure everything fits is a good starting point which may be obvious but, worth mentioning.

    I then moved on to bonding the underside of the hood. I had already temporarily secured it on the top. I took a different path then Jazzman and King and left the inner hood structure and most of the lip. I felt this would allow the nose to be more rigid. I did cut the lip back just a bit and once glassed in and body worked the hood would appear to have the round bar originals needed. This was certainly not the driving factor it was left purely for strength. I didn't take a photo of the hood fiberglassed but, did take a photo of it trimmed. Also in the photo, you will see a steel bar (1/8th thick and an inch wide), epoxied to the cowl. I used the same 3M adhesive that will be used to secure the discs that will hold the hinges. This too will be fiberglassed to secure it further. I believe King and Jazzman used fiberglass in this area which worked. I thought this approach would allow the same strength while also provide a solid point to secure some sort of guide pin. Bending the 1/8th-inch bar to the curvature of the body was a challenge. Bend, see if it fits, and repeat. After what seemed like 1000 test fits it was nearly perfect. I did this with the body mounted to ensure I had the correct radius.
    IMG_7260.JPG

    I didnít take a photo of the completed work but, do have photos of the show side. It needs to be sanded and yes, I did remove all the gel coat. After sanding this will be more apparent. I applied the fiberglass the way King did start with small strips to larger ones. After sanding I will have a better idea if more layers are needed.

    I have a huge appreciation for those that do their own bodywork and those of you who are professionals. Regardless of the skill set, it's a lot of work.
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  22. #20
    Member Mick40's Avatar
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    Body is on

    This morning I installed the body which includes the doors and front elephant ears. The splash guards will need to be altered just not sure how I plan on doing it. Jazzman split them which prevent binding or rubbing. As you can see the body fits very well all the preparation paid off. The hood opens and closes with minor binding on the front bracket where the brake air duct is. Just needs to be bent or I may remove them. For now, it's my reference that the body is in the correct orientation.

    The next step is to extend the lip that the hood will rest on. I'm not sure yet how I'm going to tackle this. My initial thoughts are to make a lip out of wood to support the fiberglass and build layers over it. I have heard that fiberglass will not stick to parchment paper so this should make for easy removal of the mold. Guess we will see.

    More to come!

    Mick
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  23. #21
    Member Mick40's Avatar
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    It tilts

    Quick update- I bonded the discs to attach the hinges yesterday. Let them dry for 24 hours, they are rock solid. I will cover them with fiberglass when I remove the hinges for powder coating. Did the prep work with wax and grease remover and then sanded the area with 80 grit. Finished by cleaning the area with Acetone.

    Installed the gas struts which are the ones that came with hood hinges. I may need to purchase 40 or 50-pound struts but will see. It holds the hood up very well however, I'm not done reinforcing the sides which will add some weight. I have to say the alignment is perfect without the Band-Aids. This is due to the hinges and how solid they are mounted to the nose. However, the key to the system is the Watts link. This allows you to move the hood side to side similar to the way the linkage can be adjusted to move an axle housing side to side with respect to the frame. Without the watts link, the hood will close in a different place every time and is key to making the flip front robust. I concur with Jazzman, 2BKing designed a solid system that can be fabricated with basic skills.

    As I mentioned I have not done anything to reinforce the sides near the exhaust. Once that is done it will still need an alignment pin similar to what others have done on the Daytona Coupe. Not the best photo sorry.

    Enjoy-Mick
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  24. #22
    2bking's Avatar
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    Glad to know it works and I'm sure you are a happy man. You will enjoy this mod every time you need to work under the hood or even check wheel alignment. We need more pictures! What are you going to do for latches?
    King
    Roadster #8127, ordered 7/12/13, received 9/11/13
    http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...4-Coyote-Build

  25. #23
    Member Mick40's Avatar
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    Hi King,

    It's good to hear from you! As you can see I have made a lot of progress although balancing work and other obligations have slowed me down a bit. Today I worked on building up the lip for the hood to rest on, applied 3 layers of glass. Jazzman had an issue with using blue painters tape thinking it wouldn't stick to the fiberglass. Well, I found that parchment paper and clear packing tape work very well. Later this week I will remove the body and build up the underside. By the way, I kept the body on to ensure the curve would match the nose given they align perfectly at this time. Once I have the basic shape I will use rage or 3M- Marine High Strength Repair filler. Not sure it's needed in this area, thoughts? I'm not keen on having to sand it from what others have said. Guess we will see.

    Here is the photo of the body prepped for fiberglass. Similar to the hood I removed gel-coat and made room for building up the cowl. There is a 1 inch wide by 1/8th-inch thick bar just behind where the lip is being added. This has helped to hold the shape while not interfering with the frame.

    Hood latches.....Hmmm. I have a few ideas but welcome anyone's input. King, you have designed a nice tilt system. I recognize it's not for everyone. That said, this car will never be sold ( by me), so my plan is to do it the way I want.

    Mick
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    Last edited by Mick40; 07-14-2019 at 05:53 PM.

  26. #24
    Jazzman's Avatar
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    Wow! You made it look so easy! Congratulations on getting the system to function. Keep up the good work!
    Jazzman

    MKIV #8745 "Flip Top" Roadster, Custom Tilt front, Coyote Engine, Tremec TKO600, Custom Interior. Best of Show winner, Huntington Beach Cruise In 2018.

    1967 Ford Mustang Coupe build thread updated 10/23/2019

    Roadster Frame Dolly Plan

  27. #25
    Member Mick40's Avatar
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    Thanks Jazzman! What made it easier was 2BKing's plans and both your documentation. I'm finishing the lip and will put the rear section back on in the next week or so. I'm working on a latch system with King's help which is proving a little more difficult than anticipated. It's a solenoid that releases the latch. Unfortunately, it's not strong enough to release the latch so when it's no longer energized it closes with the pin still in place. Have a few ideas on how to solve it but, I may not have the time needed to make this work. Yeah, a 10-year build and I'm complaining about not having enough time. I guess if take into consideration that I'm getting older then I guess I'm actually running out of time.

    Jazzman, thanks for the idea about radius needed and not a 90-degree edge in the cut line over the exhaust. I may take the time to do this it's just fiberglass and some filler.

    Hope to post some pictures in the next few days. My daughter is having a baby shower and there is a lot for me to do.

    All the best-
    Mick

  28. #26
    Member Mick40's Avatar
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    Looking for rubber hood bumpers, or whatever you call them.

    I'm fitting the front hood to the lip I created. I recall someone on the forum used rubber bumpers to align their hood. They sanded them down to have a perfect fit. Most likely this was on a Daytona. Anyone has a suggestion on where to get these I would very much appreciate it.

    Ordered a set from McCaster-Car. Was looking to see what others have used. Recognize my hood is different but, similar to the Daytona. Hopefully, the hard rubber will allow me to sand them to the proper height so I get the best fit.

    Moving on Powder coating. About 10 years ago my friend and I built an oven about 4ft X 4ft with two elements. I have powder coated hundreds of parts for myself and friends. The only challenge was making the controller. The oven gets to 420 degrees in about 12 -15 minutes.



    Thanks,
    Mick
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    Last edited by Mick40; 08-10-2019 at 08:47 PM.

  29. #27
    Member Mick40's Avatar
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    Powder coating is completed

    This weekend I finished up powder coating all the parts for the flip. This coming week I hope to assemble for the last time once I fiberglass over the discs and clean up the inside of the hood. A good productive weekend, sorry for not taking more pictures.


    Mick
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  30. #28
    Member Mick40's Avatar
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    Well, I'm further along than the pictures posted but, wanted to provide an update. The hinges are installed and the body is back on the car for the final time. Let me just say for those of you who struggle to align the doors, this may not be a path you should take. There are a lot of hours into making this work. Some I'm sure are the result of the choices I made. One size does not fit all. I want to be clear this is my doing and nothing to do with Factory Five. They make a great kit that can be assembled by anyone with the desire to learn. I enjoyed the challenge in taking this on and although I'm not done, the time and effort are worth it to me.

    As you can see in the photo, I left more material in the hood than Jazzman or 2Bking. This was due to me not adding as many ribs to the internal structure. There is steel in key areas that were bonded in. Which is better? Not being able to see their build firsthand, I have no idea. Hopefully, I made the correct choice. I copied Jazzman's locking system but the install was a little different on the driver side but, the principle is the same. You may notice I did have to enlarge the driver side footbox and made the cover removable. I had drilled the holes for rivets many years ago so I was stuck with a lot of holes. By the way, the cover is larger to provide enough space to cover master cylinder for the clutch. I copied Wayne's work from many years ago which utilized the Mustang pedal box.

    I wanted to share the ashtray box with switches for the truck release and whatever else I want to turn on. Just didn't look good with a single switch. If nothing comes to mind this will be the button I tell passengers to never push.

    Mick
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    Last edited by Mick40; 09-20-2019 at 01:40 PM.

  31. #29
    Member Mick40's Avatar
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    Well, this is the last update for a while, the car is at Mike Everson's for paint, alignment and final assembly. I included two photos that I took from Mike's Facebook page, I'm sure he won't mind. I met Mike about 8 years ago when I bought a set of rims from him. You have heard many times on this and the other forum what a nice guy Mike is and the craftsmanship he puts into every build. I want to echo that here, Mike is in good company with several of the other professional builders on the forum. Mike spent more than two hours showing me his shop and the level of detail he puts into each and every build. There were several cars in his shop at various stages so, I was fortunate to see his work first hand. Also, when Mike told me "I build each car as if it were my own", I have zero doubt.


    My final impression on the flip nose is that it's a lot of work. The metal fabrication part was easy even for an amateur like me. King's plans are bulletproof, easy to follow. The hard part ( for me at least) was fiberglass and fit. Mostly an emphasis on fit. This has nothing to do with King's design it's a work of art and functions as intended. It's really about the craftsmanship of the builder. As I mentioned before, if you struggle to get your doors aligned then this is not a project you should tackle. Many hours were spent getting the body aligned particularly where the exhaust exits the body. Jazzman posted an update suggesting where he would cut the body given it has a tendency to catch. Mine is more of an issue with the pipes given how my motor sits. Just like these kits, the minute you do something different there is the potential for something to happen that requires tweaking. Some become frustrated with this, I myself find it a challenge.

    I didn't use any alignment pins as others have. I cut a 1/2 pipe down the middle to act as a receiver for a round bar. This made alignment easy and strong. I think it looks good too. The inside of the pipe is lined with rubber. Not the best pictures and it certainly is a cleaner install than shown in the photo but, they are all I have. The pipe is only 3 inches long. The aluminum round bar is mounted on the hood just above the header. There is one on each side of the hood to help alignment.

    I can say the benefit of having access to the entire front end of the car is a blessing. I recognize this is not for everyone but, that's the beauty of the Factory Five platform. You build it the way you want.

    When there are any updates I will be sure to post them.
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  32. #30
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    This is an excellent thread and mod. I have always wanted to do this when I purchase my MK IV kit.

    Keep on rolling.

  33. #31
    Member Mick40's Avatar
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    Thanks, Tarmac!!

    As Jazzman mentioned in a recent article, there is only a handful of these. Dallas was one of the first I saw do this which got me hooked.

    It's certainly a lot of work but, the reward in the end, is worth the effort. Just like building these cars. Unless your a professional a lot of time is spent doing simple tasks. Now when I look at someone's car, I have a much better appreciation knowing what it took to get there.

    Thanks again!

    Mick

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