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Thread: Fuel System Thoughts

  1. #1
    Senior Member Alphamacaroon's Avatar
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    Fuel System Thoughts

    Hi all, I'm getting to the stage of picking my fuel system for my Gen III and had a few questions:

    1. Any negative experiences out there with in-tank pump setups? Other than being a little harder to access if something goes wrong, everything I read says the in-tank systems are the state-of-the-art (i.e. cavitation, heat, etc). Thoughts?
    2. Any thoughts or experience out there using this Aeromotive Hanger and pump system? https://www.aeromotiveinc.com/produc...pump-assembly/ I have a Gen III complete kit and assume the tank that comes with it is an OEM(ish) Mustang tank (mine is currently on backorder)? Is it '83-'97 compatible tank? I assume I could make anything work with enough cutting and welding, but would like to drop in as much as possible.
    3. I notice a lot of people are mounting their fuel pressure regulators in the engine bay, but I'm seeing a lot of discussion saying to mount it as close to the fuel tank as possible (less line to run and less heat build up from the engine on the return fuel). Thoughts?


    P.S. I'm going Coyote if that helps inform opinions on the matter.

    Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated!
    Last edited by Alphamacaroon; 04-06-2019 at 04:26 PM.

  2. #2
    Senior Member edwardb's Avatar
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    Responses:

    1. With the right hangar, pump, and line sizes, IMO the in-tank pump setup is the way to go. They run cooler and quieter than external pumps. Yes, if a problem harder to access perhaps. But they are very reliable. The majority of the negative comments when discussing electric fuel pumps that I've observed are directed at external pumps.

    2. Yes, the stock tank is an 87-93 compatible tank. I'm not familiar with that particular pump, but looks like a decent option. Aeromotive makes good stuff in my experience, as long as it's authentic. They're one company that has documented a number of counterfeit parts unfortunately. The pump hangar I've used on my Coyote builds is this one from Pro-M, and I can vouch for the quality. http://www.promracing.com/high-flow-...-mustangs.html. It can be used with the suitable sized Walbro style pump.

    3. Yes, lots of builds being completed with the GM fixed regulator/filter back by the tank. It's simpler, cheaper, and does require less plumbing (e.g. shorter return line) to install. I don't believe people who are putting them back there are using an adjustable regulator, like the commonly used Aeromotive units. IMO, the downside of monitoring and adjusting the pressure in a location like that would outweigh having to run the return line all the way to the engine compartment. Heat in the engine compartment is a complete non-issue for the regulator there in my experience. Typically it's firewall mounted, and gets no more heat than any number of other fuel related components in the engine compartment. Two cautions regarding the GM regulator: (1) It's fixed at 58 PSI, which has been demonstrated to work fine with Gen 1 and Gen 2 Coyotes. But for the Gen 3 Ford calls out 65 PSI. Given the added direct injection system on the Gen 3, I'd recommend following their recommendation if you go that way. That likely means the GM regulator may not be the best choice with the Gen 3 Coyote. (2) The GM part doesn't use a vacuum reference signal, which is recommended by Ford. Obviously many are using it successfully without the vacuum line, and in fact many tuners will also tell you not to use it. So it's probably a non-issue. But just something to be aware of.
    Last edited by edwardb; 04-06-2019 at 05:16 PM.
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  3. #3
    Senior Member Alphamacaroon's Avatar
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    Really appreciate the info @edwardb. I was planning on using the manifold reference input, but had no idea some people actually have suggested *not* to use it. Do you have any more information or links to posts where people have discussed reasons for not using it?
    Last edited by Alphamacaroon; 04-08-2019 at 09:44 AM.

  4. #4
    Senior Member edwardb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alphamacaroon View Post
    Really appreciate the info @edwardb. I was planning on using the manifold reference input, but had no idea some people actually have suggested *not* to use it. Do you have any more information or links to posts where people have discussed reasons for not using it?
    Sorry, I don't have any more background information or threads where it's discussed. My source is Lund Racing, who's done a couple tunes for me and several others that I know of on here. They say the vacuum reference isn't needed and to run the regulator with the vacuum connection open to atmosphere. I've run mine both ways (with it connected, and with the vacuum line plugged and the regulator port open) and honestly can't tell any difference in my basically 100% street driving. I've heard of at last one other tuner who also says to leave it disconnected. But then you have the Ford and Factory Five instructions that say to connect it. So your choice!
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  5. #5
    Senior Member CraigS's Avatar
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    I have no experience w/ the Coyote efi but do have 30 yrs experience working on cars. The vac line is there for a reason. Google found this which is probably better than I could have done myself.
    " For those who might be curious about their FPR, here's the key point: it maintains constant pressure between the fuel rail and the intake manifold, not between the fuel rail and the outside world.
    This makes sense if you think about it. Consider: when the engine is idling, the intake manifold has a strong vacuum - so it's actually trying to suck the fuel from the injectors. The pressure in the rail can be quite low and the gas will still readily spray into the manifold. In fact, the pressure needs to be low or the engine will tend to run rich. On the other hand, when you stomp the gas, the manifold vacuum drops -- i.e. its pressure increases -- so you need more pressure in the rail to force the gas through the injectors.
    The FPR uses that vacuum line to monitor the pressure in the manifold and adjusts the rail pressure accordingly. It tries to keep a constant pressure across the injectors, which is to say between rail and manifold. At idle or when engine load is low, the FPR reduces fuel pressure. When accelerating or pulling a hill, the FPR increases fuel pressure."
    If it were me, I'd connect it.
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    Senior Member edwardb's Avatar
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    Want to go deep? Check this out: https://aeromotiveinc.com/wp-content...c_Boost_01.pdf. From what I can tell, it's saying the vacuum reference is needed but can be tuned around. Hard to argue though that (1) bunch of Coyote builds using a non-vacuum reference regulator (discussed in the referenced document), and (2) tuners who make a living with these engines say the vacuum reference isn't needed. But having said that, doesn't hurt either.
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  8. #7
    East Coast Speed Machines Erik W. Treves's Avatar
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    I am using the pro-M hanger on my car - and a large pump inside the tank
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  9. #8
    Senior Member Alphamacaroon's Avatar
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    Update:

    I think I've come up with a fuel system design that I like, but would love some feedback before I fully commit:

    IMG_4550.jpg

    Design:

    1. Pump: Aeromotive Stealth 340 & Hanger https://www.aeromotiveinc.com/produc...pump-assembly/
    2. Filter: Trick Flow TFX Canister 10 Micron Filter https://www.summitracing.com/parts/tfs-23006
    3. Regulator: Tanks Inc. AFPR1 Fuel Regulator: https://www.summitracing.com/parts/tnk-afpr1
    4. Want easy access to the filter from below the car, but out of the way from road debris and protection from failed CV joint
    5. Want to minimize fuel flow and clutter in the transmission tunnel, so the regulator is mounted in the rear but still accessible through the rear access hatch. This gives a nice short return line and a single fuel line to the engine bay. The pressure gauge will be mounted up front near the fuel rail.
    6. Upgrade from included 5/16" line to 3/8".


    Questions/Concerns:

    1. Should I be worried about the fuel regulator and a rear-end collision? Seems like there are all sorts of fuel connections back there anyway so you're always sort of relying on the inertia switch to shut everything down no matter what.
    2. I've read a ton of content with those who say to never, ever, ever run the fuel line through the transmission tunnel because of the danger of broken driveshaft taking out a fuel line. Are there any other options in the Coupe? I can't seem to find another way to route the lines where the fuel line doesn't become the low spot on the frame. I guess if the only way is through the tunnel, at least I only have one fuel line to worry about instead of a second return line.
    3. Any other potential concerns/issues you see?


    Much appreciated!

  10. #9
    Senior Member edwardb's Avatar
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    My thoughts FWIW: Well thought out plan and good questions. No comments about the actual products other than the Trick Flow filter which I've used. First class piece. I haven't used the other brands so don't have any opinion. I would challenge though how much fuel line length and work you're really saving going around the back to the regulator vs. just taking both lines to the front and mounting the regulator there. I'll bet it's not more than a few feet of straight runs, and is that really worth the trade-off of having the regulator hidden under a cover? Related, having the regulator separate from the gauge will make adjustments a two person operation. No big deal, but just saying. Specifically to your questions:

    1. With the tank and related at the back, I don't think the regulator or lines are really any additional concerns. It is what it is.

    2. You're right, that's been stated a lot. Including by me when there were other options. But for the Gen 3 Coupe, there aren't any other options. Note you'll also have the rear brake line, e-brake lines, and rear electrical harness going through the tunnel. Busy place. With IRS, the driveshaft is really short. If you also add a driveshaft loop (what I did on my build) I think the risk is mitigated to some degree. Note I also went with a QuickTime bell housing. Very unlikely to blow up an aluminum one, but another little piece of insurance.

    3. No.

    Good luck whatever you decide. These builds are full of choices like this.
    Last edited by edwardb; 04-24-2019 at 02:10 PM.
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  11. #10
    Senior Member Alphamacaroon's Avatar
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    Much appreciated @edwardb. What driveshaft loop did you end up going with? I'm going with a T56— will it fit?

  12. #11
    Senior Member edwardb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alphamacaroon View Post
    Much appreciated @edwardb. What driveshaft loop did you end up going with? I'm going with a T56— will it fit?
    Just a generic one. Happen to get it from JEGS because they had the best price at the time, but the same one is sold at multiple sources. https://www.jegs.com/i/JEGS/555/60662/10002/-1. Yes, it fits with a T56. Discussed and pictured here in my build. https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/show...l=1#post325019. BTW, my Gen 3 Coupe build thread has multiple explanations and pictures that you may find useful. There are other Gen 3 Coupe build threads as well. FWIW.

    Also BTW, I meant to mention when I responded to your last post that having the adjustable regulator in the back also makes a long run for the vacuum reference line. Not 100% sure it's needed as already discussed. But something else to consider.
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  13. #12
    Senior Member Alphamacaroon's Avatar
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    Thanks again— I actually just pulled up your build thread and found it. Lots of great info. My afternoon is now booked with reading

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    Vacuum port on the adjustable EFI FPR's, is mainly for boost referencing, so if not boosted, no need to hook it up.

    And, edwardb, no offense, but from a long time drag racer, car builder, who has popped more than one driveshaft, your driveshaft loop is setup wrong. The large oval around that short driveshaft will allow the shaft to drop if it ever breaks and will beat everything to death under there if it does, and likely tear up the tailshaft of the trans. With an IRS car, where there is no articulation to the shaft, you'd be much better off with a much tighter round loop so that the shaft can't drop down.

  15. #14
    Senior Member edwardb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ltngdrvr View Post
    Vacuum port on the adjustable EFI FPR's, is mainly for boost referencing, so if not boosted, no need to hook it up.
    Except that (a) The Ford Performance instructions (plus the Factory Five instructions, although they probably are just mirroring the Ford instructions) specifically say to use the vacuum referenced regulator setup for the non-boosted Coyote crate motors, and (b) The Aeromotive document I linked documents the reasons and advantages of the vacuum referenced regulator setup for both non-boosted and boosted applications.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ltngdrvr View Post
    And, edwardb, no offense, but from a long time drag racer, car builder, who has popped more than one driveshaft, your driveshaft loop is setup wrong. The large oval around that short driveshaft will allow the shaft to drop if it ever breaks and will beat everything to death under there if it does, and likely tear up the tailshaft of the trans. With an IRS car, where there is no articulation to the shaft, you'd be much better off with a much tighter round loop so that the shaft can't drop down.
    No offense taken. And I can't cite anything like your claimed experience. But in my defense for my street driven build that will never see a drag strip, I have neither the tools or capability to fabricate my own driveshaft loop. My choice is to use the universal one that's widely available and fit it into the chassis in the only way it would go. The perspective in the picture from my build thread maybe doesn't give the best view. The loop is exactly centered along the length of the driveshaft. The loop is within an inch or less from the top and sides of the driveshaft. Agreed it could be tighter on the bottom. But in the extremely unlikely the loop should ever be needed, I'm not worried about mechanical parts. I'm satisfied it would provide a measure of protection for me and a passenger. Better than having nothing.

    Welcome to the forum BTW.
    Build 1: Mk3 Roadster #5125. Sold 11/08/2014. Build 2: Mk4 Roadster #7750. Sold 04/10/2017. Build Thread
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    Quote Originally Posted by edwardb View Post
    No offense taken. And I can't cite anything like your claimed experience. But in my defense for my street driven build that will never see a drag strip, I have neither the tools or capability to fabricate my own driveshaft loop. My choice is to use the universal one that's widely available and fit it into the chassis in the only way it would go. The perspective in the picture from my build thread maybe doesn't give the best view. The loop is exactly centered along the length of the driveshaft. The loop is within an inch or less from the top and sides of the driveshaft. Agreed it could be tighter on the bottom. But in the extremely unlikely the loop should ever be needed, I'm not worried about mechanical parts. I'm satisfied it would provide a measure of protection for me and a passenger. Better than having nothing.
    Well, the thing to have done with that off the shelf driveshaft loop would have been to cut down the loop part until it was as near to a circle as possible, then drill new holes in those loop pieces to bolt back up to the side brackets.

    But, guess I've hijacked this thread enough with off topic stuff.

    BTW, thanks for the welcome.

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