PLEASE READ - I have an idea I would like to bounce around.....seriously
Little background I grew up driving cars like the Scirocco, Corolla GT-S, several 510s including a wagon, briefly a 320i and probably my favorite an S12 200SX turbo. Light tossable cars you could enjoy to drive in almost any venue. No electronic nannies not much extra weight. I also owned a 76 Trans Am with a blueprinted Pontiac(not Olds) 400 and it was fine and loud in a straight line but not anywhere else. I destroyed the brakes on the car more times than I could count. It swapped ends on me more times than I could count. I feel like I survived that car. Like many kids that grew up in the 80s I was fascinated by the poster car imports. Hard not to like the Countach - never driven one heard I am not missing much. But every once in a while that awe-inspiring poster car coincided with being a car you likely would really really want to drive......
Fast forward to today and I have been following the 818 pretty much since inception. Been following the efforts of FF longer(the chassis is what is important to me) but none of the cars either fit my budget(GTM) or really my generation. I get the Cobra is cool will be a hundred years from now but it does not speak to me personally but clearly it does speak to a lot of people personally. In my case a better for instance would be UK Wheeler Dealers. Their crew regularly chases cars such as the ones I am talking about - the ones that inspire that grew up when those cars were new. Hoping some other people are following me and now let me get to the point.
So why am I prattling on here? That point - I think the 818 is a passably attractive car don't get me wrong but it lacks that visceral visual hit that a car brings when a car looks good and has the heritage and performance to back it. Full stop one of the most amazing car companies IMHO is Lancia. IMO one of the most amazing Lancias is 037 Stradle. Group N homologation by Lancia solely to win the WRC - again - against AWDs. The 037 is the last RWD car to defeat the AWD titan that is/was Audi. I know this is an entirely subjective assessment, but I also think it is one of the most beautiful cars made. So pedigree, performance and IMO a looker. Under the skin - simple engineering excellence. Analog.
I would humbly ask FFR to look into the feasibility of bodying the 818 skate with a Lancia 037 body.
The Project 818C is the closest incarnation of what the 037 is in almost every metric. If you took an 818 and put in an inline 4 supercharge it you would almost be tripping over minutia under the skin. Two seat rear mid-engine rear transaxle - the 037 even has a tube frame behind the firewall. The interior of the 037 is almost all padded straight lines and standard gauges - feels viable. Etc etc.
Several replica companies have tried, the last in New Zealand I believe but I think the technology FFR already has the chassis in house and the technology that can be brought to bear on reproducing the body. It could be done better and easier now than 20 years ago.
There were only 200 made there are likely only a handful in the US but given the reach Dave Smith and FFR have in the automotive community I would venture if anyone could get one in a shop for a scan they could. I suspect the few that do own these cars are as passionate about them as the ones of us who love them from a distance. If I had one, I'd share it.
That is all - thank you for your time.
Please shot out support or just tell me its a fools hope.
Besides the point that the suspension of an 818 would not work for a rally car, and the body of the group B Rally car would sell better, why would they? If someone made one, what class would they race it in?
The 818 is fine as is. It just needs some more refinement. It’s not a replica or tribute car and that’s part of its charm. It’s a good platform for modification. I’ve done such things as frenched license plate box, increasing side vent openings, fixed the door/fender interface, added air scoops @ rear quarter windows, added cabin ventilation, door handle delete, plus much much more. It’s your oyster, build to your taste.
I can see why you'd think the 818C would be a good platform to put the 037 Stradale body - the underlying chassis of both cars share many similarities. If you could rework the front and rear ends of the 818C, you could probably achieve 90% of the look you're after. But I doubt FFR would sell you a Stradale body to put on the 818, they seem to be focused on the GTF and probably more original concepts in the future. Your best bet is to probably get real good at fiberglass body work or have a shop rebuild the front and rear ends for you, IMO.
Besides the point that the suspension of an 818 would not work for a rally car, and the body of the group B Rally car would sell better, why would they? If someone made one, what class would they race it in?
To call the 037 an effective rally car in the full sense of the word would be a stretch. Its a tarmac car - a crushingly good tarmac car. It is more of a road racer than a rally car. On their way to that last WRC championship they actually skipped several races in which they knew the 037 could not compete. Given the stock ride height of the Stradale(not the rally car on which it is based) it may well be lower and similarly sprung to the 818 already. I am not fully versed on racing regs but it would seem anywhere you could race the 818 as is you could race an 818 skate with a 037 body. I just don't know.
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Last edited by subysouth; 05-31-2019 at 08:56 AM.
Reason: clarity
That would be a no. FFR is an American company and most kits are sold in the US.
I love Murica as much as anyone but to even call the Cobra an American car is a huge stretch. An English car with American muscle sure. I would imagine the Cobra is FFR's best seller, but it's the whole package with the Cobra looks, racing pedigree, ridiculous power/weight. It's a winner, that doesn't mean anything "not American" is a loser or a not starter for an American replica co IMO.
If you mean it simply won't sell here I understand that position and why I'm sticking it out there, that's where I am thinking fool's hope.
I can see why you'd think the 818C would be a good platform to put the 037 Stradale body - the underlying chassis of both cars share many similarities. If you could rework the front and rear ends of the 818C, you could probably achieve 90% of the look you're after. But I doubt FFR would sell you a Stradale body to put on the 818, they seem to be focused on the GTF and probably more original concepts in the future. Your best bet is to probably get real good at fiberglass body work or have a shop rebuild the front and rear ends for you, IMO.
I think that is what makes this proposal interesting. I guess where my mind is technology. I could spend several hundred hours trying to modify an 818 body but I think given the capabilities of 3d scanning, printing etc etc now is the best time imaginable to try something like this. The 818 kit is ~10k. I have worked on a few cars in my time, its hard not to think less than half of that price is the fiberglass shell itself. Once you have the mold, reproducing panels is pretty quick. Getting to a mold 2019 I feel like has to be a lot easier than 1999.
Again I could be wrong about all these things but I would sure like to know. The "what is an 818 and how does it perform" is 90% the skate. My question is how much effort and cost would be required in changing the wrapper. The skate I generally love I would welcome a shot at tweaking.Trying to modify the body I think would be a lot of time yielding mediocre results. Results again that could be crushed on time and execution using tech I am guessing FFR has in hand.
That's the line of thought that raised the question.
Well it's not as simple or easy as you might think of making a new body for an existing chassis.
Dave Smith is running a small company, and has to take into account a lot of different information, to see if this makes for a good business decision.
Would there be any conflicts with using that shape? Read about the Carrol Shelby, Factory Five court battles.
A big one I can think of, yes you really like the 037 Stradle for it's shape, history, etc. But how many others feel the same way?
Is there enough interest from your customer base to justify the investment dollars in this type of project.
Take into account, finding one to 3D scan, retro fitting that shape to the 818 chassis, prototyping the first set of molds, to find out what works and won't. Setting up the final production molds, have to take into account how many pulls you want to make out a mold set before they start to lose their tolerances.
Can a source for all of the window glass be located?
I could go on but, you get the idea. If it was easy, we all be in business.
Good luck and hope your dream can come true for you.
Ron
"May you be in heaven a full half hour before the Devil knows you're dead"
I appreciate all the feedback. Going to read up about these suits you mentioned. I thought the law was pretty clear there in that as long as you make it clear it is a replica - you were fine.
Again I think the 818 as an engineering effort is exceptional. I obviously am a fan of the 037. In many ways the 818 is a modern 037. Give how few rear mid-engine cars have existed in the history of the automotive world - it is shocking the similarities to be honest. The big difference being the appearance. I firmly believe that the modern replica cars FFR is creating are easily handily better performing and better engineered than the cars on which they are based. But if the FFR Cobra replica didn't look like a Cobra, they wouldn't be selling a quarter of them IMO. I guess it just comes down to is an 037 worth recreating. I'm clearly biased but it would appear not based on the feedback thus far.
Price on request, so might be about the price of an 818 maybe?
for a fun project, go buy a bunch of foam blocks and cut, carve, sand a body. Cover with FG. cloth and west systems epoxy.
Lol - that is an actual rally car, not a homologation car. No idea where that would end up on price but yea bring a heavy checkbook.
It's just not my style and at this point in life I certainly don't have that kind of time. If I were to try I wouldn't even start without a full 3D exterior scan and then I would pay someone with body moulding experience. My gut says if you are a near perfectionist(which I am) it would cost at least 60k after the scan to create the body alone. If you believe that - which I do - would I take 60k out of my children's pockets for a replica car body alone? Very very unlikely unless I hit the Powerball - at which point - I'd probably buy a 037 Stradale outright an try to do what I am asking FFR to do right now. Might still source the skateboard from them.
I will go on record in saying I'd give FFR easily double their 818C cost for an 818 in an 037 body. I know my contribution will not come anywhere close to making them whole. There would need to be other people interested. It is likely a significantly different market but I believe I am not the only person who would have an interest. I am a custom remodeler by trade. In my work I have done some unusual and envelope pushing things. I had a dime for every time I have been told "it can't be done" and then did it or found the person willing to do it - I possibly could afford that Group B you linked. Dave Smith and the FFR team have already pushed the envelope so far it has popped with the 818. I am just asking for the feasibilty of putting a better suit on it. It's their business - I am assuming a NO at the outset - but would the world be a cooler place if they said yes? I think so.
Lancia has made some very interesting cars. The Stradale definitely being one of them.
There are a couple issues with the idea from a business perspective. The first is that not that many Americans have even heard of Lancia. Americans in general are not into rallying or rally cars. (The guy with the largest Lancia rally car collection in the US lives in my town BTW. He even has a concourse level Stratos) Out of those that have heard of Lancia, a very small percentage want to own one. An even smaller percentage would want a replica of one. There would literally be a handful of buyers at most and it is even possible that you would be the only person to buy one. It just wouldn't be financially viable.
Lancia is still an operating company in Italy. FFR would likely get sued if they didn't do a licensing deal.
I can't tell you how may people of all ages tell me that a Cobra is their dream car. There is a viable market for Cobra replicas. Which is why there are multiple successful replica companies out there.
If your heart is really in it, use the 818 platform and have a bespoke body made. If you do, we want to see it.
I appreciate all the feedback. Going to read up about these suits you mentioned. I thought the law was pretty clear there in that as long as you make it clear it is a replica - you were fine...
Even when the laws are clear if someone wishes to make a challenge and bring suit you have to defend. In the case of Shelby vs FFR the courts ruled in Factory Five's favor...twice...but they had to defend themselves in Federal Court. As Mark Smith said the lawyers for Federal courts bill their hours at 4 figures, not just 3. It can wind up costing millions to defend against baseless suits. In a nutshell Shelby and Co. thought that they could crush FFR and they'd simply would roll over and fold but the Brothers Smith were having none of it.
Lancia has made some very interesting cars. The Stradale definitely being one of them.
There are a couple issues with the idea from a business perspective. The first is that not that many Americans have even heard of Lancia. Americans in general are not into rallying or rally cars. (The guy with the largest Lancia rally car collection in the US lives in my town BTW. He even has a concourse level Stratos) Out of those that have heard of Lancia, a very small percentage want to own one. An even smaller percentage would want a replica of one. There would literally be a handful of buyers at most and it is even possible that you would be the only person to buy one. It just wouldn't be financially viable.
Lancia is still an operating company in Italy. FFR would likely get sued if they didn't do a licensing deal.
I can't tell you how may people of all ages tell me that a Cobra is their dream car. There is a viable market for Cobra replicas. Which is why there are multiple successful replica companies out there.
If your heart is really in it, use the 818 platform and have a bespoke body made. If you do, we want to see it.
I definitely hear you Avalanche(and Jeff on the suits) well laid out - let me respond.
If a plaintiff continues to pursue a defendant in frivolous and groundless suits in the US courts they open themselves up to not only paying the defendants legal fees but a countersuit as well. As I understand it the law is very clear unless the manufacturer of a replica car presents the car as an authentic original car, they can build replicas to their heart's content. I do not know the details of the cases but based on what you have said, I would be stunned if FFR did not recoup some or all of their legal fees. I had a successful family member in my father's generation that was sued 3 times by a political enemy and owner of minor newspaper in our area which he used as a pulpit for his suits. He sued numerous people - you might say it was his real career. After the third suit my family member counter-sued, won and put him out of the newspaper business. He also bought his wife a 500SL(this was the 80s after all) with some of the proceeds. The US courts are quite capable of punishing bullying parties that pursue frivolous suits. I hope FFR punished Shelby somewhere in that exchange.
I, as a person, could not be much more average. I spent all my formative years in the deep south. No one I know or have every known drives a rally car. I know and have known what a Lancia 037 is since I was, say, 12. Thanks Car and Driver. The 818 is a Subaru based vehicle. I have owned six Subarus. Almost everyone in the Subaru enthusiast community has at least at some point watched WRC. A number of the them field rally cars themselves here in the US. I would imagine 90% of them know what a Lancia is - minimum. I can not say what the level of interest would be but I would be stunned if I were the only person in the US with an interest. This is a car that is simply unattainable for any normal person, much like a real Cobra is becoming. I think there would be some interest even here in the US for a competent(exceptionally so) surprisingly authentic mechanically replica of a car costing ~$500k in the real world.
Our community hosts Cruisin the Coast - one of the larger car shows in the country now I am led to believe - you may have heard of it. Not trying to ding the Cobra by any stretch but when it comes to myself and many people in my son's generation attending the show it's "oh another Cobra kit car" and they walk on. If it has a unique powerplant(Coyote, diesel, ecoboost, etc.) they might stop. The Cobra has been done and done because it is a great car but not everyone wants a Cobra and those that do have multiple options for a kit car. I am no expert in the replica car business but I would suggest the newest additions - the hotrod, truck and 818 are the growth area of the business for FFR. If we were also to use the approach of dream car lust drives the next vehicle, FFR should have never built the 818 to begin with because before it was built zero people said the 818 was their dream car. But build it FFR did and as near as I can tell it is a success. This suggests to me Dave Smith and the crew at FFR are more than just business-minded. People who buy the 818 buy it because of what it can do. All I am asking is the viability of dressing that 818 chassis in some different clothes. Clothes that fit the fit chassis almost to a T.
I am going to venture Dave Smith and the team at FFR are more than a business people but the further reality is out of all the views and replies here - not another voice of interest. I think there would be more interest than just me but how much I have no way of quantifying. I could certainly come up with several business propositions for FFR but any of them would have to start with at least some interest outside me. If I were advising Dave I would say the same.
And I would close with a question Avalnache - does your neighbor in Jacksonville have an 037?
Two points that I would like to make. First is that the impression that FFR has let out is that they are putting effort into improving internally as a company with a new warehousing IT system. This should reduce their costs and the time it takes to get all of your parts. It will also give them more flexibility to offer more options on each model, such as different body styles. Second, don't speak ill of the dead. As a company they are still around [http://www.shelby.com/?topic=vehicles&art=CobraHome] and they have a right to protect their rights. On the other hand, from the FFR literature, they were always clear that FFR was not the original company that made the Cobra and that the design was different. The court case was not "frivolous and groundless", but it was pointless as it cost both companies a great deal of money.
Two points that I would like to make. First is that the impression that FFR has let out is that they are putting effort into improving internally as a company with a new warehousing IT system. This should reduce their costs and the time it takes to get all of your parts. It will also give them more flexibility to offer more options on each model, such as different body styles. Second, don't speak ill of the dead. As a company they are still around [http://www.shelby.com/?topic=vehicles&art=CobraHome] and they have a right to protect their rights. On the other hand, from the FFR literature, they were always clear that FFR was not the original company that made the Cobra and that the design was different. The court case was not "frivolous and groundless", but it was pointless as it cost both companies a great deal of money.
Point one I am glad to hear. CAD is the future of many great things to come. I could not be more happy that companies like FFR are bringing it to bear for the benefit of car enthusiasts.
On the second point I never said the specific case against FFR was frivolous and groundless. I have not read the case have no desire to do so. At first blush given what I know of FFR's operation it would hard to be see any case that Shelby could have prevailed on. The apparent facts I can opine on are Shelby pursued two lawsuits and failed and I offered I hope they suffered a monetary penalty for that conduct - I stand by that. If two separate cases were found in the favor of FFR the highest likelihood is the cases were baseless under the law and that greatest likelihood is the source of the wasted money all around came from the plaintiff side.
I don't follow speaking ill of the dead. I can say readily state Hitler, Ted Bundy etc etc are IMO pieces of garbage. If you are referring to Carroll Shelby himself and you have buily a don't speak ill of Shelby zone around him, it would not surprise me if he had nothing to do with the case. Many times a single great person builds an empire then multiple generations behind that person try to figure ways to cash in on that legacy. No idea if that is case here but it happens all the time. IIRC Shelby is actually building continuation cars that are authentic Shelbys. Can't see why they are choosing to target FFR for a lawsuit other than a cash grab(again given prevailing US law.)
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Originally Posted by UnhipPopano
